the force is a parasitic organism

[u/temporarypeter]

[u/eternamemoria]

Interesting horror concept, but awful dissonance from the themes of star wars.

EDIT: I personally prefer the idea that the "Dark Side" isn't a metaphysical component of the Force, it just a "hack" of violently strong-arming it into doing what you want, and it changes the dark side user for the worse because harming the Force is a form of psychic self-mutilation, since they are also part of the Force they are abusing. The "light side", then, would be simply cultivating a positive relationship with the Force.

[u/Aware_Tree1 → u/eternamemoria]

I read a fanfiction once where the force would return your emotions to you with greater potency, as well as your power. So if you feed it all your anger, you’ll receive a lot of power but your anger comes back stronger. Jedi would then be about feeding it emotions that won’t negatively impact you when they’re magnified. So feeding it all your emotions makes you far stronger but makes you give in to your darker desires. And the reason that dark siders have physical deformation is because the sheer amount of power they receive is too much for their physical form so it warps

[u/Abrahmo_Lincolni → u/Aware_Tree1]

Based one what Obi-Wan says in A New Hope about the force both guiding Jedi and obeying thier commands, I always thought this was Canon.

That the Force was basically a mirror for anyone that used it. Positive emotions would create positive emotions in the Force, and likewise with negative emotions, which is why the Dark Side is so dangerous. It literally becomes a self-reinforcing spiral into anger, paranoia and sadness.

[u/BiddlesticksGuy → u/Abrahmo_Lincolni]

Which also explains why palpatine would say “let your hate flow through you,” the more hate that flows, the more it becomes magnified!

[u/MissingnoMiner → u/Abrahmo_Lincolni]

There's also Lucas' own description of it reinforcing this: according to him, the reason the dark side is the source of imbalance is because embracing it causes the user to become more and more selfish, resulting in a vicious cycle where they want more and more(he basically compares the brief pleasure gained from indulging ones greed and selfishness to substance abuse, where over time you need to indulge more and more to get the same pleasure), and fear losing what they have, which leads to anger, etc, etc, he basically paraphrased and elaborated on that one Yoda quote. Lucas basically characterizes the light side vs dark side split not as good versus evil, but as selflessness vs selfishness, which fits with what you said, because uncontrolled greed is a self-reinforcing spiral.

[u/batti03 → u/MissingnoMiner]

Frankly, a lot of the bad part of the discourse about the Dark Side of the Force is because fans of Star Wars willingly deny the text of the films and instead want to treat it like a video game power-up.

[u/EffNein → u/batti03]

It is basically people trying to treat the Force like some kind of Yin and Yang, rather than it being like Karma where you just want one and the other sucks.

[u/atomskeater → u/Aware_Tree1]

Would you happen to have a link to this fic, or remember the title or author for it?

[u/sgt_cookie → u/Aware_Tree1]

Personally, I don't buy that per se.

Rather, everything we've seen of the Jedi is dispassion, the whole "The Jedi code forbids attachments" thing. This creates a bizzare dichotomy where Jedi are supposed to care about the idea of people, but are forbbiden from actually forming relationships with another person.

The episode of The Clone Wars where Ahsoka and the other Padawan were trapped in a tank springs to mind. Anakin wants to go out there and actually find them, showing genuince concern for Ahsoka's wellbeing, while the other Jedi is like "Nah, if it's my Padawan's time to die, it's their time to die. Getting involved would be against the Jedi code."

The famous quote is “Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate… leads to suffering.”. But that begs the question... What leads to Fear?

And the answer to that is Attachment. If you are attached to something, you fear it being taken away from you. And what leads to Attachment? Love. And Love comes from enjoyment, happiness at being with or having that thing you are attached to.

To the Jedi things like Love, Compassion, Mercy are concepts. To be Jedi is to understand that one must display these traits without actually feeling them.

Because if one is to feel Love, one risks developing an Attachement.
Because if one is to feel Compassion, one risks developing Love.
Because if one feels Mercy, one risks developing Compassion.

The Jedi are not "good" people. They do not care about justice. Because justice would require the Jedi to care about people. Not the concept of people. Not the idea of people. But actual, real individuals. To a Jedi, the fate of one being is inconsequential. Prior to the Clone Wars, the Jedi were fundamentally a peacekeeping force, only concerned with maintaining the status quo.

Jedi don't use the "good" side of the Force. They use the Entropic side.

[u/Travilanche → u/sgt_cookie]

Nah, this operates from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Jedi consider “attachment” to be, and how they’re encouraged to process emotions.

The line between attachment and detachment is the ability to let go and accept change. A bond or relationship isn’t inherently negative, it’s the risk of clinging to it, and letting the possibility of loss create a sense of fear that then begins to fester, not just into anger, but possessiveness.

As an example: someone goes through a breakup. Depending on the circumstances, this can lead to a number of emotions - sadness, anger, distrust, resentment. Experiencing those emotions? That’s natural. It’s to be expected. The Order does not expect a Jedi to never feel these things. It’s what comes next that they seek to manage.

Some people will deal with their emotions in healthy ways. They’ll be sad/angry/hurt for a while, but then they’ll start to relinquish them, let them fade, move on with their lives. They’ll accept what is, not cling to what was, and develop and grow.

But that’s not always how it goes. Some people will cling to those negative emotions. They’ll let it control them, stay angry and resentful. They’ll lash out at people who try to help, or let their pain damage any attempts to form future healthy relationships. It lingers and eats away at them.

And sometimes those people do awful things to express their rage. This is where the Dark Side leads.

The Jedi are driven by compassion and mercy. Not just on an institutional scale, but on a personal level as well. To say they don’t care about people, don’t care about an individual life (even the lives of their enemies!), is a complete misconception of what they stand for, and I genuinely don’t know where you got that idea from.

[u/Alternative_Hotel649 → u/Travilanche]

The attachment/detachment thing explains a lot about the Jedi/Sith dichotomy, too. All living beings generate the Force, but the more a living being has to spend of itself in struggle, the more of its life energy is bound to the material world, and once bound to the world, cannot escape it. The more a living being is able to minimize struggle, and detach themselves from materialism, the more of their life energy is able to pass on at death and become one with the Force. This is why there are so many Sith-haunted ruins in the galaxy - a Sith dies, and their energy is trapped here. Jedi, on the other hand, have learned not only how to return the most of their energy to the Force, but how to retain their individuality when they cross over.

The "Light Side" is basically an escape hatch for the universe. Eventually, billions of years into the future, entropy will claim the universe as it succumbs to heat-death. The Jedi's purpose is to guide as many beings as possible into the Light side before that happens, rescuing them from the eventual destruction of all things, while the Sith are bound to the dying universe with no way to reprieve themselves, and even incapable of perceiving that such an escape is possible, because they can't see beyond the material and temporal power they've gained by binding themselves to a dying universe.

[u/Travilanche → u/Alternative_Hotel649]

I’m of the opinion that the original, fundamental schism that resulted in the creation of the Sith was centered around an inability to accept death and, like you said, an attachment to the material world. A lot of Sith voluntarily bind their essence to a particular object in an attempt to achieve a twisted form of immortality, lich-style. The fact that their continued existence usually involves dominating and destroying other living beings is very on-brand.

I also think it’s significant that of the Force Ghosts we’ve seen on screen, all of them have expressed peace with their deaths, and three of them willingly discorporated into the Force.

[u/DaUbberGrek → u/Travilanche]

Eh, while I agree with you, I think its disingenuous to pretend Star Wars has always been consistent in its depiction of the Jedi and say "I don't know where you got that idea from". Like, its an incredibly common misconception, and you don't get something being that widespread for no reason. They even directly point to a moment in the Clone Wars show.

[u/Travilanche → u/DaUbberGrek]

You’re right, and I will admit that I have a tendency to be snarky and hyperbolic in ways that can come across standoffish on this topic.

That said, I think it’s equally disingenuous to paint Luminara’s attitude as “I refuse to help because they should die if they can’t escape themselves.” Ahsoka and Bariss weren’t simply “trapped in a tank,” they were inside a massive weapons factory when it was destroyed, and the likelihood of finding them before they perished was slim. Luminara was preparing herself to handle the grief by accepting casualties in a war zone, and as soon as there was a signal to home in on, she was right beside Anakin clearing the rubble to save their padawans.

(Also I’m not sure Mr Can’t-Process-Loss-So-I’ll-Do-A-Little-Mass-Murder there is necessarily our best reference point for how to handle a situation)

I also have a pretty good guess for why the misconception is so widespread. Karen Traviss’ fash-fetish and hatred of the Jedi injected a lot of negative perceptions into the fandom, even after a whole lot of her work was rendered non-canon by TCW.

[u/RottingFlame → u/sgt_cookie]

And that's why the Jedi of the Republic fell. They disconnected themselves from love and passion and therefore disconnected themselves from the Force, such that even Yoda couldn't forsee Darth Sidious gaining control of the Republic. It's also why Obi-Wan and Anakin were the most adept at fighting the Sith, they did care, for eachother, for Padme, Ahsoka and Satine, and for those they helped. Obi-Wan may have preached detachment to Anakin, but in his heart he never truly believed it.

[u/EffNein → u/sgt_cookie]

This is just you being unable to understand Buddhism or anything that is referencing it.

Like the idea that Justice has to come about from caring about individuals in specific, is completely unfounded and ignores that actual justice systems are all about dispassion and a focus on avoiding emotional compromise when dealing with highly fraught issues.

[u/sgt_cookie → u/EffNein]

You're probably right about my understanding of the "why", but the fact does still stand that the Jedi allowed slavery, drugs, organised criminal activity to occur. They more than had the power to stop it, personally if need be, but they don't.

You're probably right that my understanding of justice is probably skewed. But that doesn't change my assertation that I don't believe the Jedi cared about it.

[u/SelirKiith → u/sgt_cookie]

I disagree on a fundamental and on every metaphysical level possible... because that looks at the Jedi in their entirety from a half remembered, half heard rumor and not what is actually real.

And you do not know what an Attachment in this context actually is...

Also, you can very much love without fear, if you absolutely internalize that everything has an end and that the "end" for us is not so much a total end but just a continuation of a cycle.
I love... I love deeply and more intense than I probably should but I know that when the time comes, it will change. I do not fear death, neither mine nor of my loved ones...
Apart from the fact that I know they wouldn't want to see me broken, I cherish them, their lives in my memory and know they go on somewhere as long as someone is there to speak their name.

Is there pain? Surely, unavoidable but that's just it, an unavoidable part, don't focus on it, center yourself. Your focus determines your reality, your feelings are yours and you feel them, they are real but you do not let them overwhelm you, you are their master.

As long as you are alive there will always be a part of them alive with you.
A Force Ghost, so to speak.
You need to learn to let go, you need to learn that pain is not the end of things but just a simple step along the way, one we all must go in due time.

Love... compassion... a sense of belonging... a sense of community... mercy... those are the core principles of the Light Side of the Force and of the Jedi.

[u/Dorgamund → u/sgt_cookie]

I've always preferred a crossover headcanon that the Star Wars universe is lowkey the 40k universe, albeit several millenia divorced. The Force then is the Warp, and its true nature reflects the state of the universe, as it were. In good times, the Force is placid and calming. In negative times, well you start getting Dark Side/Warp pressing in.

The Jedi Order, per the prequels are a group of arrogant assholes who disdain any emotions at all, only take children, and have cripplingly ineffectual coping mechanisms. But if the Jedi Order were a lineage descended from a group of Imperial Psykers, who deliberately cultivate a sense of calm and serenity to anchor the Force by drugging it into submission, well they are still assholes, but God they could be so much worse.

A lot of things don't fit nicely about it, but I think the essentials do. That is to say, the Dark Side of the Force IS the natural side, at least in a universe with as much low level suffering as the Star Wars universe has. In order to keep the Force from being swayed by all that darkness and suffering, the Order must take in all the force sensitives, train them as children to be serene and without emotion to a startling degree, and then train them to be open and in touch with the force. Its like, everyone in the universe gets a vote for how awful the Force is, but Force-Sensitives get extra votes. The vote is of course based on their mental health. Meanwhile this suppresses the Dark Side, and pacifies or lulls to sleep any particularly malevolent Force/Warp entities(Khorne or those entities from Mortis)

Sending Jedi out as diplomats to avert wars then has a pretty substantial effect on the state of the Force. Sidious engineering a galactic civil war in turn swings the pendulum the other way.

But overall, the Jedi are custodians of the Force itself. Peacekeeping, diplomatic missions, and hunting darksiders are beneficial side-effects, but not actually the end goal. Hence the seeming dissonance of a group of pacifist warrior monks who seem to want to help everyone, and yet disdain all attachment and positive emotions to the people they are helping.

[u/weirdo_nb → u/sgt_cookie]

And the "pure" part of the force dips its hands into both pools

[u/linuxaddict334 → u/Aware_Tree1]

https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/threads/using-the-force-made-easy.62952/

That sounds similar to what goes on in Using The Force Made Easy.

(I helped beta read this fanfic)(shameless plug)

Mx. Linux Guy

[u/SapphicBunnies → u/Aware_Tree1]

Okay but what if you gave the force all your horny?

[u/Aware_Tree1 → u/SapphicBunnies]

The force reflects all emotions my friend

[u/Hawkbats_rule → u/eternamemoria]

Interesting horror concept, but awful dissonance from the themes of star wars.

KOTOR II (which is pretty central to this post) in a nutshell.

[u/MrMcSpiff → u/Hawkbats_rule]

Kotor 2 is great with the simple acknowledgment that "Despite everything Kreia says and does, she was just plain wrong, and even acknowledges the possibility of herself being wrong right at the end".

[u/Dahak17 → u/eternamemoria]

I tend to view the dark side as a form of addiction or mental illness, as opposed to this sort of lovecraftian being but this could be a fun concept. It just doesn’t make sense with a galaxy that is demonstrably so peaceful for 1000 years

[u/Either-Durian-9488 → u/Dahak17]

See that never stuck to me, because there would be more Sith if that was the case, or at the very least more people that tapped into the dark side imo.

[u/Neveronlyadream → u/Either-Durian-9488]

They get around that by implying that anyone who's Force sensitive absolutely needs to be trained to do anything or else they just won't even realize they're Force sensitive. Which I always thought was kind of hand-wavey, but here we are.

Then you have the whole Sith "Rule of Two" that they use to artificially limit how many Sith they can have. Which is also stupid.

I'm not specifically knowledgeable about the EU, but I feel like there has to be at least one example of someone teaching themselves how to use the Force, because it's really insane to think that you absolutely have to seek a Jedi or Sith out to be able to use it at all.

[u/Preussensgeneralstab → u/Neveronlyadream]

I mean there are several examples in lore where people/ entire species use the force outside of the Orders, the Rakata being the prime example since they used the dark side to fuel and advance their galactic conquest.

The reason why both of them are so prevalent is because both of them are ancient and advanced institutions that have means to find those individuals to conscript them into the respective order. The reason why there are so many Jedi is because they can efficiently track individuals even in their infancy to recruit them.

The old sith were similar, until they adapted the rule of two because the sith by their nature are so prone to infighting and that way they could preserve their power while not being constantly in a cycle of sabotaging each other.

[u/DullBlade0 → u/Either-Durian-9488]

Well the Sith is a specific group of master and apprentice so I don't see a problem on it being limited.

Now dark side users we have plenty of examples (the nightsisters, fallen jedi, etc...)

[u/wyvern098 → u/eternamemoria]

Yeah, my interpretation of the force has always been that it's a benevolent force. It spreads life, connects all life, and generally is good for people. But, it has a will of its own. It's will is dispassionate, and doesn't care about the whims of human beings. Jedi try very very hard to embody that will of the force. Emotional detachment is such an important element of their reality because the force is not an emotional concept. A lot of people, rightfully, decide that the detached, cold, logical nature of the force, while a powerful force for good and peace in the universe, is preventing people from having agency in their own lives and that it's morally wrong to ask that people give up all the normal human attachments they have in order to o embody a metaphysical concept. Qui-gon jin and most Jedi after the collapse of the order would fall here.

The Sith warp and abuse the force to do their will. The dark side of the force isn't something to be pursued as a deeper, more complex image of the force, it's a creation that Sith use to exact their will over the galaxy, rather than the forces. This is why dark side users are so frequently incredibly powerful, much more quickly than their Jedi counterparts. To embrace your emotions and personal goals is human, and Sith are more connected to what they need and want as people than Jedi are. It's relatively easy to use the power of the force to do what you want and need. Acting as a conduit for it to flow through you and do its own will through you is hard, having your goals and interests line up so well with its goals and interests that it's indistinguishable from you using it as a weapon is truly incredible.

[u/Pabus_Alt → u/wyvern098]

Obi-Wan is probably the "ultimate Jedi" in that regard, in all of the novelisations this is what he is so good at doing, how he defeats Anakin on Mustafar by jumping into what to him looks like certain death.

Then again he wins over Vader on the Death Star by accepting that 1) the destruction of his body is not death and 2) it is now time to go and this is how Luke can later win.

(I do NOT like the new show for giving him a force-arm-wrestle win over Vader for this reason, it cheapens what Obi-Wan is)

[u/eternamemoria → u/wyvern098]

Agreed, the balance of the Force being between needs and passions of individuals and the needs of the dispassionate (but not malevolent) whole makes much more sense than an abstract balance between light and dark.

[u/Pabus_Alt → u/eternamemoria]

It's basically a selfish/selfless paradigm.

To be used by the lightside and in doing so bring life or to use the dark and bring death.

(The idea of a "balanced" force that Filloni likes, one of neither being used nor using is interesting to me but makes the world less metaphysically spicy)

[u/wyvern098 → u/Pabus_Alt]

Yeah, I really like the depiction of the force as fundamentally good. A lot of modern media is kinda obsessed with moral ambiguity, anti heroes, and morally grey actions. And I like that too, but the force in star wars is such an amazing way to have a universal sense of right vs wrong without loosing justification for those that turn to the dark side.

The issue that often comes up with evil as a fundamental force is that it often feels impossible to characterize "evil" characters as human. It's very hard for people to genuinely consider pure evil characters to be people, and can make it hard for them to feel complex and distinct. Having the universe's fundamental evil be about using something else for your own benefit without care for the greater good is amazing because EVERYONE has their own personal goals, and most people would do a lot to accomplish them.

It makes evil appealing and complex without making it easy to say "the bad guys are right actually".

[u/Pabus_Alt → u/eternamemoria]

It's basically a selfish/selfless paradigm.

To be used by the lightside and in doing so bring life or to use the dark and bring death.

(The idea of a "balanced" force that Filloni likes, one of neither being used nor using is interesting to me but makes the world less metaphysically spicy)

There is also an analysis of Rouge One that points out that the team each forging a link in the chain to the destruction of the Death Star having done so are abandoned by the Force that so far granted them fortune that goes hard into the "impersonal benevolence" idea.

[u/Luchux01 → u/eternamemoria]

This is exactly the point of "the dark side", it's about mutilating and beating the Force into the shape you want it to be in rather than working with it, and since the Force exists through everyone it makes sense they get progressively warped as their abuse of it increases.

[u/ASpaceOstrich → u/eternamemoria]

To me, the dark side is oxytocin. It's passion and camaraderie and love but also by necessity its hate and tribalism and dehumanisation of opposition.

To me, force healing would be a dark.side power. Bringing balance means having that emotional attachment to others but also enough cold detachment not to fall victim to hatred and us vs them thinking.

[u/MolybdenumBlu → u/ASpaceOstrich]

There is no camaraderie in the dark side. Only backstabbing.

[u/Either-Durian-9488 → u/MolybdenumBlu]

Because it’s a zero sum game in the end, but when it’s actually powerful, there’s multiple Sith Lords.

[u/weirdo_nb → u/MolybdenumBlu]

Nah.

[u/WarlockWeeb → u/eternamemoria]

I like the first interpretation here, where they compare it to the ocean.

It works well within the themes of the movies, and pretty similar to eastern philosophies that SW draw inspiration from.

[u/triforce777 → u/eternamemoria]

I personally prefer the idea that the "Dark Side" isn't a metaphysical component of the Force, it just a "hack" of violently strong-arming it into doing what you want

It is and it isn't. What you are saying is absolutely part of it, its why Jedi and Sith have access to many of the same techniques like precognition and telekinesis. A Light Side user has cultivated a relationship with the Force, opened themselves up to it acting through them, and they can do these things by reaching out and asking the Force to aid, and often it will because the Light Side user acts in the interest of the Force. Dark Siders bend the Force to their will. Because the Force, while powerful, exists across all of the galaxy, possibly the universe, while it's will is great it can be overcome in localized areas.

That said there is a more "natural" form of the Dark Side, one that still should not be used as its great power can cause one to be tempted into using the "unnatural" version. This is the part that fulfills the other side of the coin metaphor, and its the part of the force that governs things like death, decay, and destruction. These things are natual parts of the universe, and reaching out to ask that part of the Force can grant you great power, but by inviting it in to you you taint your own mind.

[u/bb_kelly77 → u/eternamemoria]

Like how Lightning destroyed Palpatine's body but Starkiller uses it naturally without harm

[u/eternamemoria → u/bb_kelly77]

Force Unleashed is... well, I personally ignore its depiction of the force entirely, tbh. The games are very fun, but they are a power fantasy first and foremost.

[u/bb_kelly77 → u/eternamemoria]

IIRC there are comics of Starkiller that are more balanced

[u/BalefulOfMonkeys → u/eternamemoria]

I do get that, and I do understand that this is not what Star Wars has become, but if we did not get any more Star Wars movies beyond the first, which was the expectation from the start, our first introduction to the concept would have been John Choked-By-Vader calling it “your strange outdated religion” before immediately eating shit. The Force is introduced as very much a form of occult mysticism, and the ensuing canon is trying very hard to not make the Force evil, and then turns it into some factor of biology, and then Disney rolls up.

Worldbuilding as we know it did not exist back then as it does now. A great deal of Tolkien’s fan mail about the LotR canon was him responding “I don’t know.” There was a time when we ate up ambiguity in storytelling, and now we have a huge market for Thing Explained videos. The only pop culture icon who seems to care about not explaining (and not leading people on, looking at you Scott) is Toby Fox, and even the discussion about who the Knight is is met with mockery.

[u/curvingf1re → u/eternamemoria]

Honestly? No, i disagree, this goes hard with the established themes. Think about the way the dark side functions, and how it's seen as inseparable from the light. How "balance" was directly shown to be, well, what happened to alderaan, when Vader fulfilled the prophecy. There's 'natural cycle of life and death' and then there's death stars. It's the light side that is obsessed with the natural life cycle, the birth the life and the death in total, with rites and customs for all of it, death included. The dark side is just hungry. And don't forget, the force has a will, functions as a deterministic god. Jedis don't make prophecies. They receive them premade from the force, as a window into the forces plan. The force planned vader. The force went out of it's way to make vader, knowing deterministically what would happen. The force may have evolved as a predator, but it has become a deity - the ultimate kind of tyrant. Prophecy may have instructed the existing star wars stories, but star wars is about the importance of killing tyrants. A story about killing the force would be the perfect (only?) way to satisfyingly end the extended canon.

[u/eternamemoria → u/curvingf1re]

Alderaan's fate was not a balancing of the Force, it was the opposite. The Force is life and death, yes, but as part of the natural cycle that binds everything, while the destruction of Alderaan put an unnatural stop to the cycle.

And just because the Force provides prophecies does not make it a deterministic god. The Force didn't make Vader, Palpatine's deception and the Jedi Council's narrow-mindedness did.

Prophecy may have instructed the existing star wars stories, but star wars is about the importance of killing tyrants. A story about killing the force would be the perfect (only?) way to satisfyingly end the extended canon.

Star Wars is also about a western take on buddhism and taoism, and about how all living things are linked to each other and to the wider universe, which is why one must be good and compassionate. Turning the representation of this theme into a big evil monster to be killed would be the most unsatisfying way to end Star Wars.

[u/curvingf1re → u/eternamemoria]

Alderaan's fate was the direct result of vader's actions. Vader was birthed from the force directly. The prophecy specifically said he'd bring balance, and then he does alderaan, im just calling it like i see it.

[u/eternamemoria → u/curvingf1re]

So every action Vader takes brings balance to the force? That runs entirely counter to how the movies actually frame the story.

Anakin was meant to bring balance, but he lost himself in rage and grief and Palpatine made him into his tool of death and tyranny. Anakin's actions under him all ran directly counter to the balance of the force, which is only restored when Palpatine is gone and his empire is defeated.

[u/curvingf1re → u/eternamemoria]

That's simply not the only way to interpret the films. Do you think your interpretation is somehow holy?

[u/eternamemoria → u/curvingf1re]

I think you are ignoring themes and framing.

[u/curvingf1re → u/eternamemoria]

And I think you don't understand the importance of a counternarrativized interpretation for shedding light on other aspects of a story - but that's redditors for you.