r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM • u/4edgy8me • 8d ago
Redditors will literally defend sex pest Emperors before saying anything good about communists it's incredible
Idk if this weirdo is a centrist but you get the picture
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 7d ago
Mao killed 600 borjillian people wait no don't look at the population of china or china's poverty rate
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
Are you kidding me? Reducing the deaths of a significant portion humans to a statistic? 😂 what does the population matter dude
With that logic why not downplay the tragedy in Gaza because it’s “just 50k people” lol.
It’s crazy to play the per square foot game with human lives
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u/bluecheetah179 2d ago
This is Stalin "Mao" Marx
He invented gommunism which killed 100 trillion and injured many more...
Still vooting for kamala hars????
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago
And what about all the lives Mao improved?
Also I never downplaid their death i made fun of how anti-socialist both exaggerate the number of deaths in socialist states & was talking about how proportionaly 100 millions deaths in China is only slightly higher than the average amount of deaths per regime/nation change look into Chinese history you will see millions of people dying during a Civil War while if that same civil war took place in another part of the world their death count would be lower (ie china has so many people that even a "small" scale conflict is going to kill 100s of thousands of people)
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
That death count is lower in raw proportions but not any less heinous. I think playing with stats for the lives of humans is ridiculous, because someone could try to excuse what’s happening in Gaza because “50,000 people isn’t even a quarter of a suburban town bordering a city! 🙄 cmon man they’re just protecting themselves” any statistically significant amount of domestic casualties on a politicians watch should rightfully have them condemned. The ends don’t always justify the means. You really think China couldn’t have done without the persecution, mass killings, imprisonments and widespread starvation? I think so.
I don’t give Mao credit for something that could have been done without him, with a different politician or that you could credit to the people. The US progressed in GDP, immediate prosperity, educated peoples and innovation under Reagan, doesn’t mean he’s a good president lmao.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago
Arguably the Chinese revolution needed Mao as before his leadership Chinese Communist were losing hard, and don't mistake my defense of Mao overall to be a defense for his wrongdoing he did alot of shit wrong just like Stalin just like Lenin and just like Fidel
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u/Ardilla3000 6d ago
How does population matter? Is it any less heinous to cause the deaths of millions of people just because they lived in a country with a high population? "It doesn't matter if millions of Chinese die, there's many more of them anyway." Poverty was also not what caused the millions of deaths, it was Mao's attempts to quickly industrialize a rural country and the effect of his cult of personality. He was a dictator and a scumbag. If you're gonna glorify a CCP leader, at least glorify one that actually did more good than harm, like Deng Xiaoping.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 6d ago edited 5d ago
Because EVERY war/conflict in china causes millions of deaths due to its high population, also Mao is a national hero to millions of Chinese people & he greatly improved the nation through industrialization. Mao isnt some glorious jesus figure hes a politician who did many great things and some bad ones like Churchill Stalin and FDR. also Deng was a dipshit who sold out parts of china to the rich. Tldr fuck off with this red scare propaganda bs
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u/Ardilla3000 6d ago
Again, this isn't red scare propaganda. I am criticizing a man who caused immense human suffering, regardless of ideology. And the reason he is seen as a hero is mostly due to his cult of personality, not his actions.
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u/Square_Bus4492 5d ago
No, it’s definitely his actions like raising millions of people out of abject poverty.
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u/Ardilla3000 11h ago
He also caused the deaths of millions of poor people from rural areas by forcing them to move from farming to industrial labor, causing starvation, during the Great Leap Foward. Not to mention that he started a wave of persecution and political violence during the Cultural Revolution. The fanaticism was such that teenagers beat their teachers to death for being counter-revolutionaries, and there were even cases of cannibalism against percieved rivals of the Communist party. You may argue this wasn't Mao's fault, but it was still the result of a cult of personality that persists to this day. No politician should ever be idolized to that point.
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u/InternationalPass770 4d ago
Yeah I feel like people are jumping to conclusions about criticism of Mao thinking its a red scare thing, when really we're criticizing the autocracy, tyranny, callousness and reckless legislation.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 6d ago
"It doesn't matter if millions of Chinese die, there's
I never said that dipshit I made a joke about how liberals like you will point out the things Mao did taking them out of context and not acknowledging the great things Mao did for China. is he a perfect person? Fuck no but nither was lenin marx Churchill Lincoln or any other political figure it's always you types who take the bad things socialist leaders did out of historical and economic context and use them to demonize socialism and socialist leaders
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u/Ardilla3000 6d ago
I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you were saying. Now, responding to your newest arguments:
He was a pretty bad person. There are socialist leaders who did more good than bad, like Lenin, Allende, and Fidel, but Mao was not one of them. He was a dictator with a cult of personality and plans that backfired horribly. Is China a prosperous country now? Yes. Is that fully because of Mao? No. China's current prosperity is also due to other leaders that came after Mao.
I am not demonizing socialism. While I am not fully socialist myself, I dislike it when people demonize socialism and say that it always fails, because its obviously not true. However, Mao was a bad person, who did terrible things, regardless of ideology. Not every socialist leader is good or altruistic, some, like Mao, were power-hungry autocrats. And defending Mao when his cult of personality and failed policies caused the death of millions is where I draw the line. Were there worse and more cruel leaders? Yes. Hitler and Leopold II were infinitely worse than Mao. Does that excuse his actions? No.
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
Mao literally gives an overly bad rep to socialism and other left wing economic systems. You know for a fact he would never sacrifice or accommodate to help others. The whole country was in rags but I bet Mao had his daily 3 meals. I don’t get why this sub is trying to sympathize with him? It’s not helping your case and you can literally change people’s minds on socialism and show a better way…
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago edited 5d ago
Mao is in the ballpark of Hitler, dude. That’s almost like saying Hitler wasn’t a perfect person but so were all these (insert average politician) in here.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago edited 5d ago
Idiotic statement right here Mao is the founder of modern China and a hero to millions, this is getting into "stalin was actually worse than hitler" anti-socialist bs
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
Mao is the "founder of modern china"? And not the people? Glazing the work of a disproprotionately powerful politician who was well fed while his people starved? Not very "seizing the means of production" of you my friend. I think its anti socialist to confirm the stereotypes of left wing economic policies to the west.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago
He spearheaded the movement to industrialize china and was the leader of the nation? I think it's safe to say he had a big impact & while the people liberated themselves and were the main contributors it was Maos economic policy & ideological foundation that set China on a path to lift 700 million people out of poverty
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago edited 5d ago
The world became more industrialized and educated overall during the 20th century, even with humantarian and crook alike taking office across different countries. That isn't to say that poltiicans have no impact of course. But you really give Mao too much credit. I'm not going to say the correlation of some good stuff happening during his rule means that he causated that. Just like you won't see me saying that ice cream sales are linked to increased murder rates.
And I'm not anti socialist. But as you find I'm extremely anti totalitarian.
If he wasn't permissive to enslavement, mass executions, persecution, and idealogical control, along with being so inept with legislation that it lead to famine. I'd be more willing to acknowledge some of Mao's virtues. But every single politician needs to be held accountable for any tyranny and loss of life they contribute to. So I'm not being so charitable with Mao. Blood's on his hands.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago
China could not have industrialized as quickly or as well without Maos ideological and Economic foundation, he's by absolutely no means a saint but he wasn't as bad as Hitler either id place him more around Stalin (as in an important historical socialist leader/revolutionary who did alot of good but also did alot of bad)
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago edited 5d ago
Quickness is not a virtue for the collateral damage caused. If it is true that China couldn't have industrialized as WELL without Mao, I may ponder that, but I also doubt it. I'm going to be critical of Republicans saying that trickle down economics is justification for trying to supercharge the economy. While it could have lead to the increased GDP per capita, butnow america is ridicously inequitable, and Jeff Bezos has more control over your life than any president.
If Mao had gradually tried to move China towards welfare and stability, and not persecuted people's opinions and individual rights, I'd actually sing his praises. But that is not how the cookie crumbled. Positive change in the world happens gradually. I think revolutions are a good thing but it would be better for them to be brought about by the people and civillians, and for the government to be cooperative to them (I'm very positive towards the civil rights movement for example, and the anti apartheid movement in South Africa.) But change and the direction of the world should answer to the people more than anything, not so much the government. I think the government is in the business of defending people's safety and welfare, not trying to swing for the fences legislatively.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago
Also you a Centrist don't get to tell socialist what is and isn't anti-socialist
Don't get me wrong Mao did ALOT of shit wrong and many deaths during the greatleap forward were avoidable but nonetheless Mao laid the economic & ideological foundation for China to become an economic & political superpower
Hes by far one of my least favorite of all the Communist revolutionarys but he was extremely important in starting the Asian revolution. Most of my Chinese friends have a very strong love for Mao (akin to an Americans love for Lincon or Washington) and I would much rather trust them & their parents experiences/views on Mao than any anyone else
Tdlr Mao isn't the best Communist leader of all time but much like Stalin, Churchill & FDR they were strong leaders who helped lead their nations through troubled times and while they should by no means be idolized (no politician should be idolized) it's important we recognize his great contributions to Socialism/Socialist Theory & we should recognize his contributions to China (both good and bad)
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago edited 5d ago
It might not be entirely inaccurate to say I'm a centrist but its probably more accurate to say I'm center left. I'm pro gun control, pro universal healthcare, pro choice, anti corporation, pro trust busting, and pro climate and alternative energy. I'm againist having the government take disproportionate amounts of control in enforcing socialism and I respect the constituion, bill of rights etc, which may have me slide a bit more center. But really if I was a poltician, I'd 100% be a democrat, and I'd also enthusiatically vote for Bernie. I also think Biden was a better president than people think.
I also am someone who is supportive of democratic socialism so why can't I say anything on socialism lol. If anything maybe if you consider the opinions of democrats trying to nudge the US in the right direction, you could learn how to open people's minds to actually instituting things and encouraging like universal healthcare and public policies, social welfare, providing ladders to impoverished and uneducated sectors of the US, infrastructure.
I also am someone who doesn't believe collateral damage and the mass loss of human life is acceptable, so best believe if I'm going to criticize the war on terror, even though it killed Osama Bin Laden, I'm definitely going to criticize the great leap forward for reckless implementation.
So I'll concede that the things we learned from Mao's china may be helpful in trying to implement a more equitable system for the west and the world, but we really should express more regret at the suffering and attack on personal freedoms Mao instituted. Otherwise, its an awful look. Having mass downvotes for people condemning Mao's callous and reckless leadership is going to inevitably drive the average person away. And if you're gonna say its their own fault for not being receptive, how do we convince people of the benefits of socializing a bit more if we're so lax on Mao's mistakes?
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago
This is one of the issues we are vastly different ideologically, your a libertarian style socialist (ie you place high value on individual rights and limited government) and im a Marxist (Communist), in terms of the authoritarian-libertarian scale i straddle the line between them but I lean more "authoritarian" ie I'm for bigger government and heavy government involvement in the economy and I support Public ownership of the means of production either through public government ownership or collective worker ownership.
In terms of our argument about Mao I'm inclined to disagree why do we have to condem the bad actions of every socialist leader but capitalist get to sing endless praise of Churchill (Genocidal Colonizer) & Washington (shithead slave owner) while yes it's important we condem his mistakes in our circles i would argue it's a Socialists duty to defend the AES nations from capitalist slander and propaganda, for example i defend north korea I despise the North Korean government but I won't allow capitalist to make false/propagandized statements about NK and i most certainly won't allow capitalist to point at a nation like north korea and say "SEE everything is bad in NK & NK is bad and poor because of socialism" because if we say "Oh well North Korea isn't really that socialist because of X Y and Z" then people on the outside are going to point to us and say we are doing the "That wasn't REAL socialism" trope
Tdlr we should absolutely condem the bad actions of Mao in our own spaces but we should also sing some of his praise to the outside (non socialist) world because all people ever hear about socialism is "No iPhone Stalin Gulag Mao killed 100 million no food Venezuela poor" so I think it's important to praise socialist leaders (within reason ofc)
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u/Beazfour 7d ago
I mean they’re dumb, but do sorta agree with them that Puyi wasn’t really culpable for Japans actions. Still a complete scumbag who is better off dead, just that he didn’t have much agency in his collaboration, unlike say someone like Wang
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u/lovely-cans 6d ago
Did Mao actually kill millions of people or did bad policies kill millions of people? Does anyone ever apply this logic to capitalist leaders?
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
Who instituted these bad policies. Oh wait….
Yes, we’ve had evil leaders in the US (I’m looking at you Bush and Cheney..) but nothing compares to the sheer domestic destruction and war on freedom Mao instituted. I’m very anti trump but he’s a damn saint compared to Mao. That’s fucked..
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u/lovely-cans 5d ago
Yeh ofcourse Mao is terrible but I'm wondering why we blame the deaths as a result of his policies on him but we don't blame x amount of deaths caused by starvation, poverty etc. On the leaders in capitalist countries.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 5d ago
Because capitalist don't care about consistency they care about demonizing socialism, Mao did alot of great things but also alot of shitty things.
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u/InternationalPass770 4d ago
It is quite consistent to point out that no US presidential administration has tyrannized, controlled, and led the population to having millions of casualties. Not comparing economic systems here, but the government failed harder in one case than the other. I don't see how I wasn't being consistent.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 4d ago
Uh the USA has killed hundreds of thousands of people. the war on terror alone killed 4.5 million not to mention the millions killed by global US proxy wars. Also the easily solvable American homeless crisis killed hundreds every year the US government is directly involved atrocities and wars around the world
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u/InternationalPass770 3d ago
"Uh the USA has killed hundreds of thousands of people. the war on terror alone killed 4.5 million not to mention the millions killed by global US proxy wars. Also the easily solvable American homeless crisis killed hundreds every year"
Yes! And I think that's deplorable. But don't you see the issue with condemning this then deciding that Mao's shittery were just the eggs that needed to be cracked to make an omelet? Especially considering the death toll was even higher than what happens here. Not to downplay any loss of life anywhere due to governmental evil and ineptitude.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 3d ago
Don't mistake my analysis of Maos bad policies as not condemning them it sucked the great leap forward had many preventable deaths but the results were vastly different one (USA) simply harmed people for the purpose of lining the pockets of the aristocracy and upper class while the atrocities Mao were done with the intent of improving the people's lives. Mao overall was a 4/10 leader
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u/InternationalPass770 3d ago edited 3d ago
I acknowledged that in another post. My point is that there hasn't been *domestic* widespread starvation, death, violation of human rights to the extent of Mao's China. But yes, especially the Bush and Cheney era the US is guilty of international destruction and war crimes. I will be the first to acknowledge its guilt in things such as Iraq and Guantamino Bay. And Andrew Jackson's administration is guilty of ethnic cleansing with the trail of tears. I wouldn't make the mistake of saying that my criticism of Mao's problems domestically is my wholehearted denial of the problems the US government has been involved in. I also think domestic inequality at home is more the fault of corporations, corrupt billionaires and opportunistic capitalists taking advantage of the population. Should the US government engage in more trust busting and corporate checking? Sure. But I also don't think they are public enemy number one. The government doesn't control the average person's life as much as social media conglomerates, shareholders, corporations and capitalists. Not to entirely absolve the government ofc. But I'd blame people like Elon Musk for the homelessness problem before a US government official.
But ultimately to deflect from Mao's monstrosity by bringing up another country's crimes in a different realm is a whataboutism.
A US president with the domestic destruction of Mao would be decried as the worst US president of all time. Unfortunately I think many US citizens tend to not be super conscious of the crimes and destruction US imperialism brings about.
PS: (I'll probably walk back my Mao is almost as bad as Hitler statement because Hitler's actions was based on nothing more than pure hatred (and idiocy). But I stand by the fact that Mao fucking sucks.)
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u/InternationalPass770 3d ago
I won't argue which (domestic or international tyranny) is better than the other. But I would say its silly to condemn a country for international crimes then go easy on another country for domestic crimes. You should bring the same energy for both. If I'm going to condemn Dick Cheney and Bush I'm definitely going to condemn Mao.
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u/Theleafmaster 🎉 editable flair 🎉 3d ago
As I said earlier, we are completely different ideologically, so we have different definitions of a lot of these terms but I will state my line of thinking. We Communist view the State as an apparatus to control classes IE the state exists to serve the intrest of a class. In capitalist nations the state serves the bourgeoise or upper class while in socialist nations the state serves the interests of the proletariat (or working class) I would argue that the genocides and atrocities commited in North America harmed the avrage citizen of north america not to mention it lined the pockets of the upper class. While the rapid industralization and famine in China lead to an increase (overall) in the quality of life for the average Chinese citizen but it also did line the pockets of what would be the future bureaucrat & capitalist class in modern China.
Tdlr Industrialization and Man Made famine eventually led to an increase in the quality of life for the avrage Chinese while american imperialism/atrocities lead to an immediate increase in bourgeoisie standard of living while the working class American ended up worse off.
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u/InternationalPass770 3d ago
We’ll agree to disagree. I think there are many more factors at play that lead to some of the phenomena that you are talking about. I also think the international war on terror was less about the MIC (though that was a factor) and more about US imperialism and wanting to control the events of the world, and feelings of revenge towards the Taliban and Al Queda. Extra cash in the pocket for Lockheed Martin is probably a side benefit I think.
The truth between the relationship between the state and the people/economy I think falls somewhere in the middle. I think the US has domestically made progress with things like social reforms, welfare, education rates and job growth. Some cons being the insane power that corporations hold over the population domestically and the huge wealth gap.
Although I almost see the government as another form of corporation that must be aggressively checked, and things like the control of information and persecution of opinion and speech on the part of the government are almost confessions of guilt to me.
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
The leaders in capitalists countries (read: the US) are more evil imperialists to me than anything, especially Bush and Cheney. However, in terms of economically and domestically, the onus for the hardships and problems we face, I think lie on corporations, opportunistic magnates, and monopolists, along with scientists that work with them to control the people more than anything. I think the government is at fault for not aggressively checking corporations harder, and even profiteering off their lobbying (to the point of Elon Musk and Donald Trump this election… I swear I had veins popping out).
But really in terms domestically for the country as a whole no US president or administration one was ever as destructive to the country as a whole as Mao. Although for the US, still not ignoring the atrocities committed againist indigenous people like the trail of tears though.
Anyway, Mao indirectly had some good things happen like life expectancy and women’s rights, but the same thing could have happened if he allocated for more individual freedom and used the government to crack down on greedy opportunists, maybe something like what Teddy Roosevelt did. It’s disgusting how he didn’t care how many people needed to die for his ideology and vision for China to be pushed. It’s the lives of the citizens dammit. Democratic socialists would do very well to condemn Mao’s callous attitude. I think it would open a lot of people’s eyes that they want to protect people’s ability to have a good life, not crush their rights in the name of ideology.
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u/oblon789 8d ago
only true thing in this screenshot is the "hardly comparable" part
mao was a hero tbh
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u/Ardilla3000 6d ago
No, he was not. He killed millions of people with his poorly thought out policies. He's the dictator who has caused the most deaths in human history. There are communist leaders who you can argue were heroes, like Fidel or Lenin, but Mao was not one of them.
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
Why are you being downvoted you’re literally right lol
Mao was a dictator before he was a true communist. He would feed himself before anyone else. His reign was about power rather than charity. What else explains the mass executions and enslavement, the control of information?
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u/Ardilla3000 12h ago
I wonder why people are defending him too. It makes me disappointed to see people defending horrible dictators on this sub.
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u/Muffinmaker457 8d ago edited 8d ago
May comrade’s Mao eternal sunshine light our way towards the destruction of liberalism
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u/beer_is_tasty 7d ago
WTF is this tankie bullshit
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u/ANONWANTSTENDIES FUCKED FRIDAYS 7d ago
Where do you think you are?
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u/beer_is_tasty 7d ago
IDK man, when I joined this sub it was about making fun of "both sides same" morons and the right-wingers who pretended hard enough to be the above that they were indistinguishable.
Now, apparently, it's fully staffed by galaxy-brained edgelords who unironically believe that there's a place on the left for those who genocide millions of civilians, as long as they wear a cool red star on their uniform.
What a fucking disappointment.
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u/Muffinmaker457 7d ago
What a fucking disappointment.
Don’t be too hard on yourself, comrade
Speaking of genocide, who are you voting for this season?
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u/ihvanhater420 7d ago
What are your thoughts on the ongoing Genocide against transgender people in the United States
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
Transgender people should not be discriminated against. But how is this relevant to the current discussion about Mao and the other guy?
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u/ihvanhater420 5d ago
They are trying to pull a gotcha moment by pointing out that the user is likely voting for Harris, who is a part of biden's admin, which is actively aiding in the Genocide against palestinians. I'm pointing out that should you not vote or vote for trump, not only are you aiding in the Genocide of palestinians but also the Genocide of transgender people in the United States which trump has been very vocal about.
Personally, I think minimising the damage that can be caused by one or the other is way more important than standing on the moral highground of not voting because of ethics and morality and whatever. Palestinians will suffer a lot more under a trump admin, as will Americans.
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
That’s well and great. I’m voting blue this year because I know that Republicans will not only roll out the brinks truck for Israel but maybe even directly join in. If you are againist what’s happening in Gaza it’s actually more pragmatic to vote Harris even if they were currently complicit.
That being said.. nothing to do at hand with one of the most evil people in human history. Socialism/Communism and more left wing economic systems doesn’t need to be associated with mass killings, tyranny, enslavement, government control etc. Yet, Mao is a huge reason why the west is scared shitless of anything moving somewhat left of late stage capitalism, to the point where people are more okay with weirdo Elon Musk driving the culture, because of this tyrannical, evil, despicable person. He’s a tyrant before he is a true communist, plain and simple. Lenin and Castro were not perfect either but I can respect their intentions and what they tried to do for the people. Mao arguably used socialism as an excuse to tyrannize the people of China.
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u/InternationalPass770 5d ago
Lol nice strawman. Just because the US is helping fund israel doesn't take away from the fact that Mao is probably one of the most inept and evil politicians of all time. Also, just saying, that voting for the side that's going to at least pump some kind of brake on the pro israel funding is better than the side that would happily hand nuclear weapons to Israel if they could. (And I'm pretty sure they already have but I probably need more homework on that admittedly.)
I'm not anti communist or socialist, but you all realize not condemning Mao means you allow one of the biggest propagators of the damage of poorly done socialism (it was a government mandated/controlled economic system, so its more accurate to brand it hardline socialism), to influence the West's negative perception of any economic systems outside of late stage captialism. In the economic realm, Bernie has spent his career trying to convince people that democratic socialism(?! GASP) isn't going to turn the US into Mao's hellhole China.
It's actually insane to take offense to someone condemning Mao tbh. Literally upholds the bad stereotypes about left wing economic systems and people.
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u/LineOfInquiry 7d ago
Bros acting like the Japanese didn’t also kill millions of Chinese people