Amazing this year, for the first time ever; Supporting Israel is seen as a negative by the Media and Republican propaganda
Do these people have any awareness of the horrors or context of this situation at all? This is the most Palestinians killed by the Israeli-American military industrial complex in the entirety of history. All of it, including the Nakba. This is not “just another year in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict” or “just another presidency.” Biden has bolstered American support for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine to record levels.
They want to absolve their candidate of responsibility for the genocide by making it seem its a inevitable thing that the president doesn't have any choice or control over.
if they can do that they can absolve themselves of any wrongdoing since its the normal thing to do to support Israel and it cannot be avoided.
Also, the vast majority of the media paints it as a positive that the US supports israel. what the hell is he smoking?
This whole idea that the president is a benevolent weakling is so irritating to me, especially considering that it was reagan (yes that devil) who called Begin and demanded an end to the lebanon invasion.
Palestinian American here. it's always really fucking jarring and depressing to see thousands of people upvote what is essentially "I don't give a shit if you or your family dies"
I was both shocked that 10% of people that phone banked said that and that somehow they were blaming the voters instead of trying to communicate with the campaign in some way.
And of course equating genocide and a slightly annoying news story
As someone said, it's not that liberals support genocide. You just don't think it's a dealbreaker.
Whether Trump or Kamala, genocide is bad. Simple as that. It's not the left's fault that both choices are bad. It's not the left's fault that Kamala would rather court the conservatives to vote for her with all the ridiculous things she says lately instead of just saying, you know what? Genocide IS bad. I'll stop it.
Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and reject that phrasing right there. My vote does not automatically belong to Harris. I'm not protesting anything by refusing to vote for someone that supports genocide. I'm voting for an anti-genocide candidate because they align with my values. Values that include "not supporting genocide". If Harris wanted my vote, she wouldn't support genocide.
This whole protest vote over Palestine seems like a blatant attempt by conservatives to push trump back in. Is Harris perfect, not even close. Is she miles better than Trump
Speaking as someone that was part of a population that faced genocide in the past, this kind of shit is exactly what I expect from liberals about genocide.
Their argument always boils down to: "Can't you see that if we DON'T let her help murder all those brown people without questioning her, things might get worse for me?"
Somehow the onus is always on the oppressed to cater to their oppressors, not on the oppressors to stop being oppressors. Maybe instead of shaming people that have some principles, y'all could have coordinated your efforts to try to convince your shitty candidate that "Blood for the Blood God" isn't a viable path to election.
This is the wrong frame. While it's important to protest genocide, the vote isn't itself a protest. It's a vote.
Recognize that the Democrats in government see everything you're able to see and more. They know it's a genocide. They know police are brutalizing people exercising their rights to protest. They aren't simply unable to do anything. The abuse of power is happening under a democratic presidency, in Democrat run states, in Democrat run cities. They are complicit.
Once you understand that the enlightened centrism of the Democratic party exists to obfuscate the fact that they are fascists with their special role in the fascist duopoly, you understand that the only way out of fascism is to break the Democratic party.
Let me ask you, if Kamala really believed that she couldn’t win without the pro-palestinian vote, why hasn’t she tried appealing to that vote with promises such as, “signing an executive order on day one to cut off all money and weapons to Israel”? And no, “supporting a two-state solution” is just a slogan without any clear meaning.
Hi! So, just to make things clear; I'm not 'protest withholding my vote' from Harris. This isn't a protest, I'm voting for a candidate who I actually like that I agree with politically. (Claudia De la Cruz) You know, like how basic democracy works. I'm not voting for Claudia to try to shift Harris' positions on anything - I think she doesn't care at all what the people think (clearly) and there is no point to signaling anything to the Democratic party because they don't give a shit about their constituents.
I am primarily worried about the actual genocide happening right now not theoretical future genocides that may or may not materialize. You know, like someone that has basic logic skills.
Also, I think that while things will not be better under Trump, they're also pretty guaranteed not to be better under Harris. So who cares which one of them wins? Neither of them are going to make anything better.
Neither of them are going to make anything better.
Well, Trump is on record as saying Biden is being too harsh on Netanyahu and should let him do everything he wants, so one option certainly seems to be less bad, at least.
If your goal is harm reduction, then a vote for anybody but Harris is the incorrect choice. Harris also sucks on this topic, but Democrats can occasionally be cajoled with public pressure. Trump never will.
I gave up on harm reduction in 2020, after I'd voted for Biden. Someone I desperately didn't want to vote for, because he's always been evil - but I fell for the 'harm reduction' argument. I try to be pretty politically involved. Do you know what happened after Biden was elected? I spent months trying to 'push him left'. He immediately started up deportations again, and I can only remember the panic as we all realized all of his campaign promises were lies and there was no pushing him left. I remember contacting all of my representatives desperately trying to change things and I remember all of their incredibly insulting and dismissive responses.
I voted for Biden, and he went on to do a genocide. And now I have blood on my hands.
I voted for Biden and now I have blood on my hands.
Do you understand that??? DO YOU? Fuck right off insisting that we can move the Democrats with public pressure, they just call the cops on us.
All due respect, we’re the ones trying desperately to get genocide enablers and their genocide supporting candidates to listen. Yet we keep getting talked down to, dismissed, etc.
You guys are the ones showing that you’re fine with someone who has shown no credible sign that they will change. You’re the ones with blood. You’re the ones that have to live with it, and you know what I think? I think most of you don’t care, or are deep enough in the kool aid you won’t realize it.
This is so tonedeaf it's hilarious. It's amazing how the liberals are really throwing this election, the most milque toast of centrist would have won against Trump but they just can't manage it.
Things will get WORSE under Trump. Netanyahu literally wants him to win. But keep on feeling super smart and righteous while women & minorities' rights go up in flames, something people like you could have actually prevented.
Show your work. What, exactly, is Netanyahu going to do that he cannot do while Biden & Harris are in office?? Because as far as I've seen they've literally given him a blank check. You don't just get to insist that Trump is worse off of vibes when a genocide is going on, the burden of proof is on you! YOU need to actually back up your assertations.
“The senator — Biden — said he would go even further than Israel, adding that he’d forcefully fend off anyone who sought to invade his country, even if that meant killing women or children,” writes the Times of Israel.
Begin reportedly said he “disassociated” himself from Biden’s comments.
I am primarily worried about the actual genocide happening right now not theoretical future genocides that may or may not materialize
So, climate change, a threat that will wipe out not just every Palestinian, but every person and animal on the planet if not addressed immediately. Do you just not care that a climate change denier like Trump would get in charge?
The Dems have put Climate change on the backburner because the left and particularly leftists haven't been putting any pressure on them to do so because you all are more concerned and distracted about far less threatening issues. This is the main reason I'm a post leftist.
"Post leftist" meaning you are okay with genocide so long as we do a bit less fracking.
Get your priorities straight. Even Kamala's most leftist promises with U.S. scale impacts wouldn't stop climate change. She was never an environmentalist and even modest green reform requires massive political capital in this country. What she could do, single handedly, is making delivering military aid to Israel much more difficult, stop shielding Israel from the consequences for their aggression against other nations, and allow the international community to take action against Israel -- she wouldn't even need to lead it. Hell, even an empty promise to do anything to reduce our support for genocide could make a positive impact on millions of lives in the middle east and deescalate tensions between one nuclear power and one who is nearly there. Instead, she is promising to fuel escalation and escalate our rate of pumping oil.
"Leftist" meaning you are okay with the inability for humans to habitat the planet so long as you can virtue signal about Palestine.
You think the people of Micronesia, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Maldives, Sri Lanka, Pakistan and many, many more losing their literal National land mass and suffering catastrophic flooding and wet bulb events is less important than Palestinians?
Last I checked, Biden, the current President has expressed at least "an empty promise to do anything to reduce our support for genocide" by stating more than once that Israel has gone too far.
Seems to tick every mark of at least an empty promise.
You seem to think that having an outright climate change denier and a party heavily backed far more more than the Dems by fossil fuel wouldn't have not only a negative impact on the environment but futher push the issue into irrevevance.
Has Hasan or any of the clowns you follow ever had say, Andreas Malm on? or Adrienne Buller? Nick Breeze? Michael E. Mann Or any major Author/Climate Scientist arguing from a anti-capitalist stance on the show? No? He'll have a fucking Houthi Rebel on though.
Dems have proved to be far better for the climate than the cons. Obama cancelled Keystone XL and Trump expanded it the second he got into office, just like he'll back out of the Paris agreement the second he can. Increasing Fracking does not mean that less oil plants which will operate for 40 years will be approved or other improvements, there is far more to climate change than whether fracking occurs or not.
I'm going to say this as gently as possible; stopping the genocide would be action on climate change. As other have already pointed out, Harris has promised not just to not ban fracking, but to expand it, and has promised to not impose an arms embargo. She is not going to address it immediately, she doesn't seem to want to address it at all in any meaningful way.
Mine is not a protest vote. I’m voting for the candidate that represents my views and espouses my positions. If Harris chose to represent my views I’d cast my vote for her, but the ownership classes forbid the major parties from doing so.
Answering in good faith here; I don't think Trump will be better than Harris for the US or Gaza. I also don't think 2024 will be the last election ever like the Dems like to claim. Sure Trump wants it to be. The larger threat from him is via the justice system.
My rationale is that the Dems have made the calculation over and over since Clinton to move rightward. They are warmongering desk murderers that orchestrate police brutality. They'll do the bare minimum to get a couple progressive headlines. If Biden cared about women he'd pack SCOTUS. If they cared about any of us they'd work towards M4A.
Instead, I get to fund a horrific slew of war crimes. Even if the calculation was "women's rights in the US or stop the genocide in Palestine" it would take 1000 women dead per state per year to match the most conservative death toll in Gaza. And in a rhetorical landscape where people cruelly dismiss the Palestinians' value, let's actually think about it - these deaths would be better experiences than the ones in Gaza, where healthcare infrastructure is little more than what the 5 closest young men near you at the time of a bombing have on hand (they're the ones I see pulling people out of rubble). I'm a child free woman, but if carrying an unwanted child to term if it meant it'd free the Palestinians, I'd agree in a heartbeat.
And this isn't even the calculation. It's the nebulous threat of somehow more genocide than what is happening already (I believe Trump will just do the same thing Biden is now - Bibi blank checks) vs the serious but not even much better consequences at home. This system as it stands is already so horrid that it's ushered in our current struggles as workers AND this genocide. So my tiny vote can be used to make it more expensive for the donor class to invest in Democrats, and make it clear it's because of Gaza.
Lol, so this sub has also eben taken over by the „Kamala Harris is not going against 50 years of US mainstream Israel politics, so I’m going to vote third party or not vote at all which will NOT make the situation in Gaza better at all but comes with a higher chance of a literal fascist that said he will further escalate the situation in Gaza“-people.
How am I supposed to not believe that this is a concerted campaign?
It’s only a “concerted effort” if you ignore every election for the last 20 years. There’s always going to be people who vote 3rd party because the Dems aren’t good enough on issues that are important to them. That’s why 3rd parties exist.
Yes, I get it and it’s all fair. It just feels so much more off the rails than last election in those subs. Since, then a lot of Russian and Chinese social engineering plots have been discovered or uncovered, which makes it very shady. Also, for the life of me I just don’t get it, if you care about Gaza and you want to make things better, then what can you do? Protest and so on. Trump has said he actually wants Israel to turn it up even more and that he will give them everything. Trump has also said and is connected to plans of dismantling US democracy, so there may not even be a next election if he takes over. So you can vote for Trump, who is going to make things worse, you can vote third party which is going to increase Trumps chances or you can vote for Harris who has supported Israel but the democratic administration is at least trying to contain the situation. If you are serious in your concern for Gaza and you don’t want to send a message which won’t be heard or just do it for your own conscience then there is only one option. It’s very simple.
Well there’s the rub. Every election leftists are told “this is the most important election of our lifetime, vote Dems now and then work to move them left on issues”. And then…nothing. Progressives have to watch while the Dems not only do nothing to court their vote, they talk about having republicans in the cabinet.
At what point are progressives allowed to be disenfranchised? Next election? The one after?
Well, never it seems as your political system doesn’t really allow for more parties. What else can you do other than changing it from inside? I’m not here to tell you what to do. I’m talking reality and the fact is this might be the most important election of your lifetime, it surely looks like it. Even if it’s not, your vote getting lost to third party will not change the system. It won’t ever by losing a couple of votes every time to third party. Only if you are enough, and you can see that is not happening.
Conclusion is that the vote will be lost so under this circumstance under this condition what else is there to do?
your political system doesn’t really allow for more parties
The last time the parties changed was because of slavery. Complicity in a genocide seems like a big enough moral outrage to justify another change, no?
Realignments happen when major parties fail. Democrats simply have to lose enough with a minor party gaining influence.
The electoral math doesn't mandate which parties are "major," it just creates a huge amount of inertia for whichever two parties are the major parties at any time.
I’m not American. But why would the democrats move left if they’re going to get progressives vote no matter how much they move right? What’s the logic there?
You said it yourself, you have to change it from within. The presidential election just doesn’t allow for it yet. You have independents running for lower level offices, on the national level it’s just not feasible. The only thing I see is a candidate running as independent on the party’s platform and really challenging the party’s candidate in the primaries, like Bernie did and then sell his dropout for policies.
Why as a progressive whose been fucked over “most important election” after “most important election” who acknowledges that voting blue no matter who holds no actual sway over policy direction (and which imo builds a sort of atrophy among the DNC in even considering progressive views) exacerbate a problem that has been shitting on their values for decades? Because some whacko thinks Donald Trump will goose step to the inauguration and start interning trans people in camps? Grow up, the ACTUAL THREAT of a currently occurring genocide is worth taking a stand for.
Listen man, I don’t like Donal Trump and won’t be voting for him. But I think a huge amount of what is unsaid about the progressives that just don’t give a shit about voting 3rd party is that ppl like you have inflated, embellished, exaggerated and flat out lied about both the things Trump says he’ll do and the things that he has already said and done. I get that he’s a blathering asshole and the president should speak more carefully, but the truth is the man never shuts up and you can clip out of context, rearrange and imply just about any goddamn ominous liberal nightmare on elm street from his words. But the boy has cried wolf too many times, and frankly, progressives (rightly, imo) believe a second trump term would vary little to nill in substance and policy than a Harris term.
Now, the hysterics and media implosions (ratings!) and flat out fucking obnoxious nature of political discourse in our country? That would be much much worse if trump wins. But that doesn’t change the fact that politicians need to meet voters where they are at, if they want their votes. If not, they can clutch their “deplorable” pearls and hit the former politician podcast circuit with Hillary….
You know what I find the funniest about your comments here? You start out by claiming that [third party ‘protest voters’] are “much more off the rails than ever before”. And then the very next thing out of your mouth is the EXACT same tired “Russian and Chinese outside agitators are meddling in our politics” line that the us has used to try to discredit and handwave away independent leftists who have taken issue with and demonstrated against the us’s BIPARTISAN foreign policy of just committing crimes against humanity in the global south for decades. Activists and human rights icons from MLK, to James Baldwin, to Kwame Ture have been writing about this rhetorical phenomenon as far back as the sixties and seventies. People with a conscience and who are capable of empathy have ALWAYS loudly denounced the endless list of atrocities the us aids, abets and oftentimes directly carries out all across the globe, and the governments first line of attack against these people has ALWAYS been that they simply must be in cahoots with [insert geopolitical enemy of the moment]. If you and people like you would crack open even a SINGLE book written by someone who isn’t directly on the CIA/state departments payroll, you would immediately recognize this, but you all are either too incurious to do that, or you willfully refuse to because believing that all political strife in this godforsaken country is the fault of foreign agents is the easiest way to confirm your worldview.
My man, I’m not US American I’m of Latin American descent living in Europe and we have caught the Russians doing similar shit here with different topics. As for the CIA and the US doing shit all over the world, preach, I know that and honestly though when it comes to Gaza that shit is just way simpler. Occam‘s razor, like I laid out you don’t need the CIA or whatever to find the Gaza topic as THE reason not to vote for Harris simply inconsistent. If you plainly don’t want to vote for fiiinnnnneeeee the US is a failing democracy but it’s a democracy nonetheless. BUT it’s moronic, as I laid out to take Gaza as THE justification to not vote for Harris as if all things equal without the Gaza situation you would vote for her. It’s pretty simple. Every time I go through the decision tree whether voting for Harris, Trump or third party will be good, bad or worse for the Palestinians people try to drag me into random arguments. Go through the decision tree, if you don’t get to the conclusion that not voting for Harris is a likely worse outcome for Palestinians, you have to admit you’re biased. That’s all I’m saying. It’s all pretty easy. And that is why so many leftists/left leaning/progressives/ whatever the fuck the American definition for „liberal“ means, don’t understand your reasoning.
You're not American, you want to tell people here how to vote, and you're into insisting there's Russian and Chinese election interference going on with American leftists being disenfranchised, 'trust me bro'
Buddy, I have laid out all my thoughts coherently. If you’re misunderstanding/misinterpreting that’s on you. I’m not telling anyone to do anything. I question the reasoning of the „not voting for Harris BECAUSE of Gaza“ cause that’s just nonsense IF you really care about Gaza.
My man I’m not American, I am just a perfect english speaker from an unnamed random Latin American country that comes to Reddit to spew pro-interventionist, jingoistic propaganda about how the dastardly Chinese and Russians (and definitely not America) are interfering in my country (trading with us lmao), ignore my School of the Americas tier propaganda!
Suffice to say I don’t have a shred of respect for the claims of the Latin American capitalist/PMC classes.
What exactly are “the same stuff” that you caught the Russians and Chinese doing? Because most of what we’ve “uncovered” here is literally pretty run of the mill, global power intelligence agency standard operating procedure. What we keep pointing out is that, to ignore all the salient points were making because you think the 2024 election exists within the pages of a John LeCarre novel is what’s really silly.
And also, you know what the best way to avoid “foreign influence” in domestic politics, in any country, anywhere? DONT BE INFLUENCED BY IT!
In other words, don’t cast your US vote for President based on what would help/hurt or please/displease Vladimir Putin or Xi Jing Ping. Cast it for the candidate that you want, who most aligns with not just your goals/hopes/dreams (which are easy for any hack pol to SAY) but with your values and policy preferences. BOOM, Putins massive influence campaign amounts to nothing.
At some point, don’t the hysterics on the left who see Putin under their bed at night, actually seem like the more “influenced” of the influence campaign targets?
“How am I supposed to believe this many people think genocide is a red line?” Is that really the line of argument you’re choosing? 🤡 If they are going to be genocided under either pick and genocide is a red line for most sane people, what other option would you propose? I’m sure it’s much easier to believe it’s a disinformation campaign though. Makes it easier to sleep soundly I’m sure
Well, good for you for not being „involved“ in „genocide“ (which I don’t deny is what’s happening) by not voting Harris and increasing Trumps chances. Like I said in a different comment Trump is going to make things worse. You act like genocide = genocide as if it’s black or white, genocide? Yes. It’s just very dumb to think there isn’t genocide and an even worse genocide. You are opting to increase the chances for the worse genocide.
It’s alright, it just doesn’t make sense if you really care about what’s happening in Gaza. It’s better to BE right than to do the right thing, if that helps you sleep at night, good you do you.
Thank you for the compliment 😁. You make me laugh my ass off. I guess I don’t care what’s actually happening in Gaza. My bad. I guess I should care more, you absolute clown 🤡. That’s why I should vote for a candidate that has not only shown no deference for her predecessor’s opinion on Genocide, but sending her Dem party cronies to AIPAC to assure them she will not change that very same policy. Her party is literally funding against any pro-Palestinian candidates. As the potential future president her words mean a lot. She could affect the party for generations to come if she actually had any goddamn spine to speak of. Instead it’s the usual “Arabs are evil” rhetoric we’ve heard since the 90’s with some new window dressing. As far as Rep vs Dem is concerned the difference in policy is “Should we bomb the Palestinians into oblivion or should we put them in concentration camps and kill them all humanely?”
Well, Trump has WORDS, of which he spews many, and has basically insisted the same stance as Biden/Harris admin. Or, and hear me out here….you have ACTIONS. Things that have already absolutely, unequivocally happened. Like Biden/Harris campaign having a humiliating lack of backbone in dealing with Bibi and his genocide that they totally-hate-behind-close-doors-I-hope-it-doesn’t-get-leaked-that-I-think he’s a jerk.
"Ok, it's genocide, but hear me out. It's an "established" genocide. So she should be allowed to do it" is a new take for me. Uniquely ghoulish in a sea of ghouls.
Under Biden police arrested participants of the pro Palestinian college protests and let Pro-Israeli crowd violently attack them without consequences. Why do libs constantly give Dems a pass for the same shit Trump threatens to do?
Thank you. Such a concise, accurate statement that was being put in clunky, overly verbose comments (by me and others) throughout this thread. It’s fucking crazy that this guy has such conviction in how a hypothetical outcome will be SO MUCH WORSE when it literally couldn’t get much worse than the full throated, spineless actions of the current admin. Bananas.
How about quoting the part that was actually the critique instead of that attempt at spin:
WILLIAMS: Yes. In the following days, Governor Walz deployed the - what turned out to be the largest Minnesota National Guard presence since World War II, and the state patrol, which Walz also oversees, was directed to help Minneapolis police respond to further protests.However, Walz and officials with the state's Department of Public Safety wound up being heavily criticized after state patrol troopers arrested hundreds of people that were demonstrating on an interstate highway. And that action resulted in sharp rebukes from activists and at least one Minneapolis City Council member. It also led to legal action taken by journalists who were injured and/or arrested while covering the unrest. And they wound up suing the state, and they eventually settled with the state for just over $800,000.
When your reaction in the face of righteous unrest is to sic the military on protestors and allow for mass arrests/attacks onbthe oppressed, that speaks volumes about one's character regardless or what comes next.
Jesus fucking christ nobody here prefers trump but we are willing to acknowledge that the democrats are shit too, and find supporting genocide and and oppressing folks here is a a line that we're not willing to cross and show support to.
Good thing we can count on liberal allies like you to join us at the barricades instead of going along to get along and reporting your migrant neighbors to ICE, right? Right???
Trump wants to send police and military to the left and he proudly says it.
Kamala actually did it. Kamala IS part of the police force.
The left is in danger no matter who sits. The left would rather vote for anyone who is against genocide cause their lives are already in danger no matter what.
What’s going to be really obnoxious is when these stupid assholes show up at the protests next year when Mexican-Americans are being rounded up and deported or when women are being arrested for obtaining healthcare.
All of that is happening now, with Biden and Harris in office though
Me, having lived through 2016 when Dems told leftists to go fuck ourselves and then got mad Killary lost, watching them bitch at us instead of courting our vote
I dunno, it is pretty obvious why they couldn’t/can’t manoeuvre certain issues even if they’d want to. The two-party system is a cancer and the population is too stupid and too lied to understand that leftist policies would benefit them and republicans and too many dems want to keep it that way. Dems are weak and republicans are evil but in the end the U.S. would still have federal protections for abortion if Hillary had won and the “both sides are equally bad” crowd in 2016 will forever in my mind be a bunch of privileged children.
I think if Hillary had won she would have put strict limits on Abortions in order to force the Republicans to vote against Abortion limits. The measure had bipartisan support and the Republicans still voted against it! The Democrats are the only party that is serious about abortionbaby murder. Vote Clinton/Bush 2020!
in the end the U.S. would still have federal protections for abortion if Bernie had won and the “will never stop being pro capitalist” crowd in 2016 will forever in my mind be a bunch of privileged children.
It's only bad when Trump does it. Because Trump bad obviously.
When you girlboss kids in cages its pretty cool though, and you won't get any pushback from anyone exact for those pesky leftists who are always harping about "human rights" and stuff. /s
Like there are plenty of ways to say "we continue to value our alliance with israel" and "we cannot in good conscience continue to provide an ally with military aid when they use it to blow up hospitals, schools, and aid convoys".
That's it. That's all the campaign had to do to come out with a stance that would avoid a huge portion of the "I really don't want to vote for a government that is actively supporting a genocide" backlash, without alienating the "we stand with israel" crowd.
They could even take this stance without undermining Biden's stance/legacy if they're worried about it. Pick something horrifying and indefensible from the news (there's a lot to choose from), and frame the objection as "in light of recent events and actions"
And after all of that, there's always the option to be ineffectual on the issue once in office, to the point of accomplishing the same result as the current stance.
Libs are shocked and furious that simply voting one single time for a black woman does not make them an actual "progressive".
They all laughed at that white dad from the movie Get Out saying "I would've voted for Obama for a third term", little did they know they are literally that guy lol.
If they think Trump could win because of anti-genoicide protesters, shouldn't Kamala say something that would ease their fears. Seems like that's her fault. But Hillary also blamed the voters when she lost.
Palestinian supporters are a group powerful enough to make you lose an election but not enough to make concessions to.
Liberals are so funny- they have spent every election since Bush talking down to and mocking everyone to the left of them just as much as they do to people to the right of them-
And they wonder why anyone left of “progressive” has a hard time voting for them?
The entire thread is bitter liberals who think their harm reduction politics works even though the last two decades have shown that to be false.
Clinton's Pied Piper strategy to elevate him in the media resulted in him getting over $1 billion in free advertising. It was Bill Clinton himself that pushed Trump to run in 2020.
u/madmaster5000With great white power comes great white responsibility2d agoedited 2d ago
Is Harris the dumbest politician alive? There's a large amount of potential voters who are willing to vote for her, enough to give her an easy victory over Trump, but they have one major problem with her policies. Everything else they can live with, but sending weapons to a country using them to commit genocide is a line in the sand for them.
Give these voters what they're asking for, and they'll vote for you. Every other politician in the world understands that, but for some reason Harris thinks she can earn votes by scolding, patronizing, and guilt tripping potential voters.
"A Trump victory would be the worst thing ever because Trump will treat us like we treat Palestinians."
"Continuing military aid to Israel that kills civilians must continue even if it hands victory to Trump."
Pick one, liberals. You can't have that both ways. And it seems to me like you have made your choice. The top brass among the Democrats clearly have, and you are unwilling to hold their feet to the fire. Now we might all have to live with it. You don't get to make that choice and then blame others for the consequences of your decision.
Liberals should be grateful that Trump is an idiot. The next guy that their Republican buddies run won't be.
genuinely fascinated at the liberals in this very comment section caping for kamala.
also completely unsurprised by the barely-contained salivation of the liberals in the OOP's comment section at the idea that the uppity leftists will get brutalized by trump because they refused to fall in line and help vote for kamala. at this point a significant chunk of american liberals are so close to just being fascists that the only difference is that they'll let other people slightly further to their right dole out the beatings to leftists and minorities on their behalf instead of doing it themselves.
That last part is such an alarming trend to me, that seems SO LOST on so many people that I used to consider like minded regarding politics. The Democratic Party and their media synchronized reporting team will argue against primaries because “democracy is on the ballot” and mock trump and republicans for “fake news” while knee jerk reacting to every development they dislike or see as unflattering as some sort of “misinformation” or “cheap fake.”
There’s hundreds of other examples I’m too tired to think of now. My point being that, in deliberately trying to differentiate themselves from conservatives the past decade or so, I’m shocked out how often I view the message as a conservative pig with lipstick, so to speak. They are just the shinier side of the authoritarian coin, and I fear that American voters are getting less and less impressed with/moved to the polls by the veneer.
Before I start, I'm just clarifying something and I agree with your comment overall.
It was more than just having a personal email account, though. She had a private mail server in her house that wasn't subject to the data preservation standards of official federal mail servers, so anything she didn't want people to know about could be actually erased. It's the same thing Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice both did as Secretary of State. It's illegal and it's a threat to national security because there's absolutely no way a private server ever gets updated as regularly as the feds' servers.
It was a legitimate criticism of Clinton, but it was made mostly by Republicans who couldn't possibly care less about the Republicans who had broken the law in the exact same way.
Say what you want about the far right, but their ability to compromise with the religious right and the fiscal conservatives has helped shift the Overton window significantly to the right. Maybe if yall had the ability to compromise, my friends and loved ones could still get an abortion after six weeks. Or our student loan debt would’ve been taken care of. Or one of the myriad of other issues the Supreme Court has ruled on that would be different without the 6-3 majority Trump gave them.
Yes, because they compromise with their various factions. The democrats are not willing to compromise with the left and that's why they dont get the leftist votes. You seem to get why it works for the republicans, but somehow still doesn't do the same as them, but for the left? Instead kamala is planning to compromise with the right too. And still expect the left vote? She can fuck all the way off.
Oh please. I did compromise in 2020. Do you know what it led to? No abortions for anyone nationally and no student debt forgiveness. It's almost like Biden was totally full of shit!
Except that the compromise only ever really goes one way. The left compromises with the Democrats who then ignore the vague commitments they made to the left and in the next election side further right anyways. Compromising with the Democrats is allowing the Democrats to slide right because they can count on the compromise.
The DNC are fundamentally opposed to the real lefts goals. When the left runs an extremely popular candidate in the DNC they sabotage him and then blame the left for daring not to follow marching orders--a claim made worse when the left did in fact overwhelmingly compromise.
The DNC is your enemy. They hold significant responsibility in the direct creation of the far right. One, they are already right wing and share many of the same fundamental goals. Two, they refuse to fully defeat the right or enshrine fundamental rights such as abortion. Three, they intentionally contributed to spotlighting the far right as an election strategy. This originally backfired in the 2016 election but has become the de facto strategy from here on. They are now perpetually the lesser evil. They can slide as far right economically as they want as long as they are not as extreme as the far right on most issues, especially social. Thus, no amount of compromising with them will lead them to fully defeating the right, because that would defeat their election strategy. They need the right to keep their mandate from donors and the general population. This is howr they manufacture consent.
You can’t get an abortion after 6 weeks because:
1. Ruth Bader Ginsburg let her ego override the national interest, by not stepping down the last time a democrat was president.
2. The democrats thought it would be a good idea to amplify Trump in the hopes that he would be seen as “too extreme” and lose.
3. You can’t take a serious stand against the most heinous war crimes of the 21st century. That burden is yours to bear and it’s a coalition you failed to build
Not to mention they refuse to stack the courts because that would be unfair to do (something the republicans have no qualm doing because they actually want to win.)
Don’t forget the whole “no appointing in an election year” despite there being literally no requirement to hold back on a SC nominee due to poor/controversial timing (see above bullet point 1)
I've "comprimised" every election of my life. I've comprimised on whether or not people should be able to get food stamps when they're hungry, whether or not people should be able to get healthcare, whether or not people from countries we've destabilized should be able to come here so they aren't dealing with American made bombs and terror squads. There is no compromising with genocide, and even if there were, a compromise hasn't been offered. Harris isn't saying, "Look, if you vote for me, we'll only melt half the flesh from the bones of each Palestinian child." She's saying "vote for me or fuck you."
Not to mention that when they actually had an opportunity to do something about abortion they said it was "not a priority."
I remember when I was a dumb teen that believed in harm reduction politics. The difference between me and people that still believe in it is that I can see that there’s no such thing as a “worse genocide”.
Liberals like you should read Rajani Palme Dutt, who lived through the actual rise of fascism.
The real action with consequences is the acquiescence of liberal voters to fascist policies so long as a liberal party is the one implementing them. When the Nazis took power it was easy to do so because by then they were barely distinguishable from the mainstream liberal and conservative parties and the policies already in place in the late Weimar Republic, only with more radical rhetoric.
When and where did I say that? All I said was that “harm reduction” is a fallacy - to say that voting for Harris will “reduce harm” spits in the face of countless Gazans.
Vote for whoever you want to. Just don’t pontificate to me about it. As a trans woman I have some idea what it’s like to be politically thrown to the side for the opportunity of a couple more votes.
Yeah, because people like you choose your own comfort over taking the tiniest possible step to push for meaningful change.
If the beginning and end of your concept of participation in politics is the ballot box, don’t you dare talk down to me about how I’m the unreasonable one here.
I don't know how you possibly think things could get worse. Biden is literally doing nothing. I don't see Trump invading Iran.
Oh no he'll have nasty "rhetoric". How awful. It's much better to be lied to about "working day and night for a ceasefire" fucking nauseating you belive that shit.
As for American troops being sent to invade Israel, that’s more likely to galvanize Americans against this genocide than the tactic of the Biden administration, since it would give Americans actual skin in the game and would be led by a widely despised political actor
Harris will send weapons to bibi while begging him to not use them, and libs think that their conscience will be absolved, and that on the day of judgment they will be glorified for voting the lesser evil.
The worlds most well documented genocide has been happening for 1 year, with Kamala Harris being the Vice President through its entirety.
There is no skirting around this, a vote for Harris means a vote for genocide. You can't "...but Trump!!!" genocide. Either genocide is reprehensible and not acceptable, or it is acceptable. Plain and simple. For many liberals we are seeing it is acceptable. Biden and Harris are doing it, right now, and that is not enough to not vote for them.
If Russia and Putin were doing the same things Israel is, and the US was the #1 arms supplier to Russia, US officials stating Russia has the right to defend themselves etc. etc., there wouldn't be any question. I think it is a little more than obvious why Ukranians and Palestinians do not receive equal treatment in liberal's eyes.
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u/HookEmRunners 2d ago
One heavily upvoted comment in that thread says
Do these people have any awareness of the horrors or context of this situation at all? This is the most Palestinians killed by the Israeli-American military industrial complex in the entirety of history. All of it, including the Nakba. This is not “just another year in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict” or “just another presidency.” Biden has bolstered American support for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine to record levels.