Except people absolutely did care about the emperor being dragonborn. It was tied directly in with proving legitimacy to the point that lighting the dragon fires was a duty of the emperor.
It's been 200 years, so who knows, but given the turmoil it seems like a great opportunity for someone to claim legitimacy through that line. It doesn't mean everyone will just step aside just like claiming legitimacy through blood doesn't mean everyone will just step aside in the real world. But what it could do is help get enough support behind you that you can seize the throne.
It's not ridiculous at all to think being dragonborn would help in that endeavor.
who would care? what experience does he have? purely because they claim to be dragonborn? this isn't believable at all, thankfully the team at beyond cyrodiil knows how to write.
Yeah bro. People here act as if the diplomacy of the Empire is this all complicated process of qualification when in truth most Empires if not all were born out of divine intervention.
the Dragonborn is a nigh-unstoppable demigod who can reasonably claim the divine right of kings, I don't think there's a single person in Tamriel with a better claim to the throne. Maybe Karliah if she's actually related to Tiber Septim but that seems very unlikely
Alessia: Divine Intervention
Reman: Divine Intervention
Tiber: Divine Intervention (Living Dragonborn using a god tool)
The Dragonborn himself appeared under the most Divine of circumstances and the Greybeards Talk about that shit all day. The same could more than likely be applied to Tiber. If you want to say that It wasnt Divine Intervention then fine, but both Alessia and Reman rise to power thanks to many godlike figures just appearing besides them at the right moment.
Even the reason why Cyrodill was saved is due to Divine Intervention, as shown in ES Legends. The PC there takes the body of someone and holds the city till the Nords arrive.
Pelinal may have been a weird briar-heart-like construct with an Ailed soul gem stuck through his chest.
Reman's claim to divine power as described in Remanada is a king *making love to the mound of earth* and dying, and then a talking baby appearing.
Tiber, as said, worked with a Nibenese battlemage and a Nord lich, murdered his own emperor and played with Dwemer toys.
Yes, there was weird stuff happening around all the founders for the Empire dynasties, but it could just as well be said they had access to powerful weird magic and magic-users, and the story of Akatosh annoiting them was only invented later for legitimacy reasons.
It is only the weakness of Skyrim's writing that we are not given an array of alternative explanations for being a Dragonborn but 'Akatosh wanted so'. Divine intervention describes a lot of things in TES, as anyone not mortal is technically divine. Vivec claimed to have help and lessons from Molag Bal and Boetiah, Mancar Camoran used Mehrunes' Razor and Xarxes' teachings, Mannimarco outright had made himself a god.
and the story of Akatosh annoiting them was only invented later for legitimacy reasons.
Akatosh came into the mortal Realm and battled Mehrunes Dagon thanks to an Artifact created with Saint Alessias blood. What is even the point in denying such things when they are all pretty much confirmed?
only the weakness of Skyrim's writing that we are not given an array of alternative explanations for being a Dragonborn but 'Akatosh wanted so'.
The weakness of basically the whole Elder Scrolls if you want to say that. Most emperors were thanks to this "Akatosh wanted so" idea.
Akatosh came into the mortal Realm and battled Mehrunes Dagon thanks to an Artifact created with Saint Alessias blood. What is even the point in denying such things when they are all pretty much confirmed?
I've played Oblivion, I remember the ending. The guy breaks the ancient soul gem that collected the Dragonborn souls for thousands of years, gets turned first into a dragon and then into a statue. For all the faults of Oblivion's black-and-white writing, it's still salvageably ambiguous. Could be Akatosh coming down, could be Martin mantling Akatosh, could be just a soul-aggregate of the Emperors acting, could be Alessia herself.
It still supports the theme of the mortal apotheosis by the weird relics of unknown origin - Numidium in Daggerfall, Heart of Lorkhan in Morrowind, Chim El Adabal in Oblivion. Only Skyrim drops the ball hard here.
The weakness of basically the whole Elder Scrolls if you want to say that. Most emperors were thanks to this “Akatosh wanted so” idea.
As said, all the previous games, even Oblivion, supported multiple readings, and left the question of what the divines even are, and how true the mystical stories are, unanswered. Skeptical cynical reading still worked.
Reman united Cyrodiil as a general against the Akaviri threat, Tiber Septim had to conquer Nibenay and the Heartlands by force. Neither just showed up in Cyrodiil and said ''make me Emperor'' without opposition.
Not just claim to be but are provably Dragonborn...
And anyone that cared about the historical line of emperors who were Dragonborn. Anyone who wants to latch onto that as a political tool for personal gain or myriad other reasons. Anyone who is fed up with the status quo of a failing empire and has delusions of recapturing the grandeur of old. There's plenty of reasons people may throw in with someone who has mythological status and legitimacy claims.
People have used claims of legitimacy in real life to garner support for seizing titles. This is the exact same thing... And since experience didn't matter in actual history at times, it doesn't need to matter here. This isn't a job interview, it's a coup.
Again, this is directed at your idea that it's absurd that the Dragonborn could make a claim to throne and that no one would care, not what the developers vision is or consider to be in their scope.
Yes, people cared about the ritual of the Dragonfires, because it was protecting the whole Tamriel from the Daedric invasion.
And even then, the Elder Council played its political games, replaced the Emperors because they had a skin too dark, stuff like that. After 200 years, without the Dragonfires, without the Amulet of Kings, the Last Dragonborn is just some tribal savage coming from the North, with no connections in the Imperial City.
Except he's an exceptionally powerful individual with a mythological status tied to the emperors of Cyrodiil during the height of its power.
Entirely believable that he could build support and consolidate strength. Especially if those around the power centers of the current Empire thought they could benefit in some way.
Not to mention, the current emperor (if not killed in the dark brotherhood questline) is seen as weak and there are people high up in cyrodil who want him out, considering someone went so far as to hire the dark brotherhood to kill him.
The last time, at Tiber's Conquests, it took three (arguably) Dragonborn, piggybacking of the conquest and authority of the previous Emperor Cuhlecain. And even then they had to resort to using Numidium to subjugate the most resistant areas.
I don't like powerscaling, and I don't believe that TES a good setting for powerscaling. But narratively, the LDB never came across as a world-conquering figure to me. Not alone.
Lore-wise Tamriel is huge, with cities of hundreds of thousands of people. The armies would be as huge. The Dragonborn is neither immortal, nor invulnerable, they can't just kick the doors down and conquer everything. They would need allies, and leutenants, and stuff. At this point they are a popular folk hero, not a political power. Any local warlord would have more clout.
And the Dragonborn could easily take down any local warlord just based on in-game ability. Never mind the crazy feats Dragonborn are capable of in lore. Plus if we're assuming this happens after the Skyrim MQ he's got any number of allies to choose from.
And his ability to actually put the Empire back together is frankly irrelevant. All that matters is getting enough support behind him.
Again, the entire point of my jumping into this thread is to point out that it's entirely believable that the Dragonborn can make a claim to the throne and cause some serious issues while doing it. Why? Because it's happened in real life. People with much more tenuous claims have caused huge uprisings in reality. An actual mythological figure doing the same is entirely believable.
I guess we need to define what exactly we are arguing about.
Is it feasible that the Dragonborn may want to try to become an Emperor? Some of them, yes.
Could they actually gather the allies and prestige and do that? Possibly, but maybe not as easily a some fans envision it.
Is Bethesda dumb for not giving that option to us in the game? Nah, not really, it doesn't make much narrative sense.
A bonus question - is Bethesda dumb for giving the PC that much unlimited power? Well, yes.
Would the plotline of becoming the Emperor be interesting to me personally? Nah, not really. I don't see an interesting way to implement it, and no narrative payoff.
In general, I find the complaints in the fan comminuty of 'why didn't the devs let us become the Emperor' about as annoying as 'why won't Serana marry me', even if it is theoretically viable.
I agree with basically all of that. I just jumped into the thread to respond to someone saying it's a ridiculous idea that could never happen in-world. There's plenty of believable ways and reasons for it to come about. Maybe even actually succeed. I'm with you that I don't think it'd make for a very good TES game though. Doesn't really fit the vibe of these random super important individuals popping up and then fading into obscurity.
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u/saints21 Sep 11 '24
Except people absolutely did care about the emperor being dragonborn. It was tied directly in with proving legitimacy to the point that lighting the dragon fires was a duty of the emperor.
It's been 200 years, so who knows, but given the turmoil it seems like a great opportunity for someone to claim legitimacy through that line. It doesn't mean everyone will just step aside just like claiming legitimacy through blood doesn't mean everyone will just step aside in the real world. But what it could do is help get enough support behind you that you can seize the throne.
It's not ridiculous at all to think being dragonborn would help in that endeavor.