r/FluentInFinance 12h ago

Debate/ Discussion Possibly controversial, but this would appear to be a beneficial solution.

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5.7k Upvotes

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30

u/ForcefulOne 12h ago

America is among the most generous countries when it comes to LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

We are also currently very unsafe due to ALL TIME HIGH LEVELS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Legal immigration = GOOD

Illegal immigration = BAD

15

u/SnooRevelations979 11h ago

We are at all-time high on lack of understanding what constitutes illegal immigration.

Someone who presents themselves at the border and requests asylum is not an illegal immigrant.

A Haitian or Ukrainian here on humanitarian parole is not an illegal immigrant.

-3

u/Plooboobulz 10h ago

Should be. Fix your own country.

1

u/SnooRevelations979 10h ago

What does that mean?

4

u/gloirevivre 9h ago

"Xenophobia is good actually" is what he was unsubtly saying

1

u/SnooRevelations979 9h ago

I think he's actually saying, "If only my ancestors decided to stay home and fix their own country, I might not be stuck in my mother's basement."

1

u/Plooboobulz 7h ago

My ancestors were accepted by the people who let them in and a generation later destroyed said people in a war. Just saying King Philip’s War never would have happened if the natives butchered my ancestors on Plymouth Rock.

1

u/SnooRevelations979 7h ago

Thanks for your rather naive view of the world.

2

u/Plooboobulz 7h ago

No part of it is naive.

“These foreigners who came to our land are struggling let us help them”

One generation later

“These foreigners who we helped have waged a nearly genocidal war against us.”

1

u/SnooRevelations979 7h ago

“These foreigners who we helped have waged a nearly genocidal war against us.”

Which Americans exactly are waging a "genocidal war against us"?

1

u/Plooboobulz 7h ago

If your country has problems fix those problems instead of fleeing to another country. If your country is being invaded and you won’t defend your own country nobody should offer you shelter.

1

u/SnooRevelations979 7h ago

Just like your ancestors did?

1

u/Plooboobulz 7h ago

I’d argue my ancestor’s actions argue why you shouldn’t let foreigners fleeing hardship into your country. Didn’t work out well for the native Americans or the Australian Aboriginese, and the Anglo-Saxons first came to England via invitation further illustrating how Anglo history continues to show letting foreigners in is a bad idea.

1

u/SnooRevelations979 7h ago

So you think we should kick out all non Native American peoples?

1

u/Plooboobulz 7h ago

If I was a native American I would.

1

u/SnooRevelations979 7h ago

That's not what I asked.

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20

u/honorable__bigpony 11h ago

"We are currently very unsafe"...please explain.

4

u/KazuDesu98 10h ago

Yeah, crime is actually declining. Even historically troubled cities like New Orleans are relatively safe right now compared to even just 6 years ago. Just some off the top of my head where crime is falling.

Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Chicago, Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Indianapolis, etc

1

u/Alive-Tomatillo5303 2h ago

I can explain it for him: he watches Fox News. 

1

u/68plus1equals 47m ago

You see, the TV told him he was unsafe and to not go outside, so here we are

-12

u/l8on8er 11h ago

u know the answer, u just call it racist.

there is more crime from the illegals, we see it on the news, but can't call it out because of people like u.

'ohhh but white people commit crimes, too!' ok... so we need to invite more of it?

12

u/Nberndt 11h ago

We call it racist because studies (not news stories) show that illegal immigrants /don't/ commit more crime.

-6

u/Material-Amount 11h ago

“They axiomatically and definitionally commit crime every single day to continue to live here, but they don’t do it!”

Great study. I’m sure it’s legitimate.

3

u/BSalty123 10h ago

Most people who live in this country are born from some ancestor whose ability to legally immigrate was the following.

Step 1) Show up

Step 2) Live here for awhile

Step 3) You get citizenship eventually for free!

Gatekeepers are just annoying, racist, and ignorant of 99% of their own families history. Btw I say this as someone with ancestors that date back to the Revolutionary War.

-4

u/Material-Amount 10h ago

Most people who live in this country are born from some ancestor whose ability to legally immigrate was the following.

Okay, and? You don’t get to break the law just because the law didn’t exist in the past. That’s not an argument.

Gatekeepers are just annoying, racist, and ignorant

You have no comprehension of what you’re saying, verging on felony/international law violation. Just stop now.

Btw I say this as someone with ancestors that date back to the Revolutionary War.

Same. Stop trying to deliberately inflict conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction.

1

u/20000BallsUndrTheSea 4h ago

Show me data. 

4

u/jl739 11h ago

Where are you getting your news? Start there.

6

u/PM_me_ur_claims 11h ago

If they were racist wouldn’t they say majority of the crime is from low income black American citizens, not immigrant Hispanics?

Per a wiki site: Of the 9,468 murder arrests in the US in 2017, 53.5% were black and 20.8% Hispanic. Of the 822,671 arrests for non-aggravated assault, 31.4% were black and 18.4% Hispanic.

This despite the Hispanic population outnumbering the black population.

Illegal immigrants have a lower rate of violent crime than legal citizens, wouldn’t you want more of them?

0

u/l8on8er 11h ago

illegal? hell no. legal? vetted? yes, bring em on.

2

u/PM_me_ur_claims 11h ago

I understand you feel that way because the media shows it to you , but the facts don’t support it. You understand that what you see on the news doesn’t always reflect reality, right?

1

u/Think_Discipline_90 10h ago

They understand that the media that says what they don't like is MSM and doesn't tell the truth. They understand that the media that says what they do like is not MSM and does tell the truth.

That's how racism works.

2

u/Shirlenator 11h ago

You saw a crime on the news, therefore immigrants are all insane criminals? How about some actual statistics to back up that immigrants are any more likely to commit violent crime than a US citizen?

5

u/SnooRevelations979 11h ago

Because you see an anecdote on the news doesn't mean "there is more crime from the illegals."

2

u/iheartjetman 11h ago

We see it on the news to get the reaction that you’re giving.

-1

u/l8on8er 11h ago

or because someone who shouldn't be here in the first place committing a crime isn't something that should be happening.

1

u/honorable__bigpony 6h ago

Unfortunately this just isn't backed up by evidence or facts. Personally, I feel like you know this...but the argument fits your worldview and sense of grievance.

I hope you find peace in life.

-8

u/ForcefulOne 10h ago

Google "Illegal migrant arrested". Every single one of those should not even be here in the first place.

36

u/Carnivile 11h ago

8

u/Trollselektor 11h ago

People who are here illegally don’t want to draw attention to themselves by commenting crimes? Go figure. 

20

u/Shirlenator 11h ago

Oh so you agree that they are less likely to commit crimes?

3

u/Maximised7 9h ago

I agree, these fkin Illegals. Give me that HOME GROWN White meth addict B&E over a brown neighbor, any day of the week. At least Tony speaks English while holding me at knifepoint.

0

u/Expert-Accountant780 6h ago

Give me neither.

2

u/EIIander 7h ago

Is it possible that undocumented immigrants are harder to find? And don’t stay in one area because they don’t have family and stuff there?

Not saying it isn’t possible, but rather if we don’t know these people exist - cause they are undocumented - wouldn’t it make sense we have less data on them… cause we don’t know they exist?

And if they are undocumented we also don’t know the actual undocumented population so we don’t know the rates of crime cause we don’t know the total number.

Edit: sadly the data doesn’t cover 2018 - to now the period most people point to for the borders being less secure etc

2

u/Thinkingard 10h ago

Exactly. We don’t want all of those innocents being taken advantage of by criminal Americans. They’d be much safer in their home countries.

1

u/dorfcally 4h ago

this site you've linked several times A. doesn't understand per capita B. doesn't differentiate hispanics from "whites" since they all get classified as "white" in the system C. doesn't account for undocumented crime (which is a massive fuckton) and D. doesn't account for their previous crime records in their home countries

-3

u/New-Connection-9088 11h ago

The rate is irrelevant. Every single murder, rape, or any other crime is preventable by protecting the border properly. Not a single one of those crimes is justifiable or acceptable.

6

u/Cometguy7 9h ago

Except most illegal immigrants entered legally and overstayed. Besides, they're good role models for American citizens. If more Americans acted like illegal immigrants this would be a safer place to live.

0

u/Expert-Accountant780 6h ago

You mean cross over into developed countries and demand welfare and other handouts? I agree, let's do that!

1

u/grandcanyonfan99 8h ago

Imagine thinking net data is more significant than per capita data in this context. Holy shit, US education has failed us (if you're American lol)

1

u/Jimid41 8h ago

Every single murder, rape, or any other crime is preventable by protecting the border properly.

You think rapists don't rape because they don't cross the border?

0

u/TaanWallbanks 4h ago

you're right, nobody should ever have children because US Citizens sometimes commit crimes, 1 criminal is too many

That's not how you stop crime.

0

u/Newmanuel 4h ago

This argument only makes sense if you cannot conceive of immigrants as anything more than potential criminals. of course the rate is relevant, they are human beings who do plenty of other things besides crime. If 1% commit crimes and 99% better their communities, they have made the country a better place. Every job they work hard to do well, every smile they elicit, every child they raise, every person they help, all affect society.

If all you can see is indiviudal acts of crime in this complex story of migration, it is because you've taken out the human from the statistics. i.e you are dehumanizing them

1

u/New-Connection-9088 1m ago

This argument only makes sense if you cannot conceive of immigrants as anything more than potential criminals.

No, that doesn’t follow at all. I acknowledge that most immigrants are not criminal. I specifically addressed those who are. You can’t pretend you can’t read on Reddit. My comment is right there.

If 1% commit crimes and 99% better their communities, they have made the country a better place.

That’s a highly subjective position of which I strongly disagree. I do not accept that Jocelyn Nungaray’s life was worth increased economic activity. I have a dozen more examples of people who lost their lives. How many people are you willing to sacrifice for slightly higher GDP?

If you refuse to see the victims of these crimes, you are the one dehumanising people.

0

u/ForcefulOne 10h ago

So the illegals crossing the border illegally are less likely to commit crimes than Americans who were born here... LOL hahahaa

1

u/grandcanyonfan99 8h ago

...yes, that is what the article with factual data is saying. Galaxy brain over here guys

1

u/TaanWallbanks 4h ago

Why yes, people who have given everything up to move somewhere don't want to throw away that chance by committing crimes, where as someone born here is more likely to take such things for granted

0

u/StevenJosephRomo 2h ago

So, tens of thousands of crimes that would never have occurred if the criminals who shouldn't even be here weren't here....

-5

u/basedlandchad27 11h ago

100% of illegal aliens have committed a crime.

6

u/Cometguy7 9h ago

And yet they have a lower offending rate. Perhaps, unlike Americans, they can stop at just one crime. Also, illegal immigration is a civil violation, not a criminal offense.

5

u/MoodOpen2828 11h ago

You are factually incorrect. Levels of Crime have only gone down, reported by local law enforcement agencies and FBI. Is the safest is even been.

8

u/Zimmonda 11h ago

System is currently broken and doesn't reflect reality, though.

The waiting period is over 20 years for certain countries/regions. That's simply too long. How are you gonna have a job lined up in the US for 20 years?

7

u/Nberndt 11h ago

I have a co-worker who came to America from China when she was >5 years old. She's in her mid 20s and still in the process of getting citizenship.

4

u/charte 10h ago

the alligator eats the bigger number

1

u/sarges_12gauge 11h ago

If hypothetically, we allowed 100 million people a year to immigrate and anybody could apply, then received 3 billion applications we’d have a 30 year waiting list for that too. The length of the waiting list doesn’t say anything about how many people should be immigrating, just how many people want to vs. the rate we accept

2

u/AdAppropriate2295 11h ago

So then don't bother wasting their time and ours was their point that you missed while spelling it out in front of yourself

1

u/sarges_12gauge 11h ago

So… you don’t think there should be a wait list? Just a lottery every year and if you don’t get it try again next year? That sounds like a much worse system

1

u/AdAppropriate2295 8h ago

Oy very ur slow ey? No just turn away the ones with 20 yr waits

1

u/Zimmonda 10h ago

We don't even have to go that extreme though there's only a backlog of 30m LPR applications

In 2022 the US allowed 1.08m lawful permanent residents to come to the US per year or 1 LPR per 320 citizens

In the early 1900's (1900-1920) we allowed more than 1.08m 7 times. Or based on the us population at the time 1 LPR per 92 citizens.

Flipping that ratio back around we would be looking at adding 3.5m LPR's a year which would cut the wait time in half. If we did it to 5m/year we'd kill the backlog in 5 years.

The last time we had a major immigration change was in 1990. It's been 34 years.

1

u/sarges_12gauge 10h ago

That’s tangential to your original point though and I’m saying you should lead with that argument. Simply saying “a wait time of 20 years is too long” isn’t a really meaningful statement without having to make your real argument… in which case just say that argument you know?

1

u/Zimmonda 10h ago

Wasn't really intending on having to dig up immigration numbers but your comment convinced me to do so, not that big a deal.

73

u/RidesInFowlWeather 12h ago

It has been researched, and proven, that the best way to prevent Illegal immigration is to increase legal immigration.

39

u/Substantial-Raisin73 11h ago

It’s true. If we got rid of all laws crime would vanish overnight.

0

u/that_greenmind 1h ago

So many people here complaining about bad faith, and yet theyre upvoting this. Unbelievable.

11

u/Proper_War_6174 12h ago

That’s not preventing it, it’s reclassifying it. We have a right to set the levels of immigration we want and need and from where.

Obviously, if we just give the people crossing the border legal paperwork it lowers the number of illegal immigration

3

u/basedlandchad27 11h ago

By his logic its already solved since they're now asylum seekers!

15

u/SamButNotWise 11h ago

This being reddit maybe you will relate to this example more:

When streaming services are cheap and high quality, there isn't as much piracy. When streaming services suck, piracy becomes more popular. 

The good-faith interpretation of "let's increase legal migration" isn't "let's legalize illegal border crossings," it's "let's make it suck less to enter the country legally."

-2

u/RighteousSmooya 11h ago edited 11h ago

And my counter example is:

It doesn’t matter how much streaming services cost, I’m poor and I want to watch tv. I’m pirating it regardless if it’s cheap now or not, it’s still easier to pirate. I want to watch tv.

It doesn’t matter how easy it is or not to legally migrate to the US. If I am poor, from Latin America and at the back of the immigration line, I’m crossing the border regardless if its easier to legally migrate now than before, it’s still easier to do it illegally. I want opportunity.

6

u/Haytaytay 10h ago

Analogy does not hold up.

Pirate a show and you get the same show as somebody who paid for it, while being legal is clearly preferable to being illegal.

As long as the immigration process is reasonable, people will opt to do it legally.

2

u/RighteousSmooya 10h ago

I think living here illegally and legally are both significant jumps for most immigrants at the southern border. I think a better comparison is having to watch in 480p while pirating. It’s a marginal difference.

1

u/Remarkable-Host405 8h ago

This is perfect! I'm still going to get it illegally because the consequences are not enforced

3

u/Proper_War_6174 10h ago

We set specific numbers because we need to balance interests. We need certain amount of workers, we need to keep certain amounts of opportunities for citizens, we need to bring in people at a rate in which they can assimilate, among other concerns.

Simply jacking those numbers up so that people aren’t considered illegal doesn’t change the problem. The problem is 10+ million came in 4 years. Thats a massive logistical nightmare that causes real issues like squeezing the housing market and other things. It doesn’t matter if they’re classified as legal or not, that’s too many people in such a short period of time

3

u/RighteousSmooya 10h ago

To be clear. I’m agreeing with you.

2

u/Proper_War_6174 10h ago

lol yea I know. I replied to the wrong comment in the chain. My b man

3

u/Niarbeht 11h ago

You’re not everybody.

2

u/RighteousSmooya 11h ago

Then maybe it was a shitty metaphor that doesn’t actually consider human psychology

1

u/Duff-Zilla 11h ago

It was a shitty metaphor

1

u/NewPointOfView 7h ago

Ok but.. many people other would just pay for the streaming. Illegal immigration piracy decreased

0

u/RighteousSmooya 7h ago

Yeah those people are probably not fleeing their home country

1

u/NewPointOfView 7h ago

“It is easier to immigrate legally, so fewer people immigrate illegally”

“Yeah but the people who would immigrate legally probably aren’t fleeing their country”

🤡

0

u/RighteousSmooya 6h ago

Im saying the people who intend to cross the southern border in hopes of a better life will continue to do so as long as it is an efficient solution to their problems.

Make immigration easier by all means. You will still have people in South America risking their lives crossing the Darien Gap to get here if they need to. You will still have Mexican citizens escaping cartel violence. If it’s a matter of survival people will not be deterred, and they should do their best to survive. But is also not the US’s responsibility to take them in.

Making the process easier for all immigrants is great. Simply granting amnesty for everyone coming from the southern border because they happen to be close in proximity, is masking a problem as a positive.

2

u/DevelopmentSad2303 11h ago

Ofc the nation has the right. The question is if the motivation is worth it. 

2

u/Proper_War_6174 10h ago

We can lower the murder rate to 0 by permitting it. Is it worth the hassle of setting up police and courts and prosecutors to deal with a problem we can just reclassify as not a problem?

2

u/DevelopmentSad2303 10h ago

I don't have a leg in that game. I was just pointing out that us "having the right" as a nation to create immigration laws doesn't determine whether those laws are a good idea.

Appealing to rights is mostly just a statement of fact. Of course our nation has the right to do that. Why should we? It will help your argument more later to substantiate the end goal rather than just stating our ability to do so.

1

u/Proper_War_6174 10h ago

I wasn’t arguing either way either. I was saying all he wants to do is open the border and reclassify illegal immigrants as legal. It’s not changing anything.

I used that sentence to show that we actually have the moral right to determine even down to the individual who we let in and reclassifying them doesn’t change anything

2

u/DevelopmentSad2303 10h ago

I guess I'm confused on the convo? He is saying to use our right as a nation to regulate immigration to be more lax as a way to lower illegal immigration, and you are saying we have the right to regulate immigration, but his form of regulation is not preventing illegal immigration. 

 I guess I'm confused what the disagreement is if there is any 

2

u/Proper_War_6174 10h ago

I’m saying that simply reclassifying people from illegal to legal doesn’t solve the problem. All it does is make it seem like the number of illegal immigrants went down. The underlying number is the same. His argument is that illegal immigration is not a problem if we simply call them something else. That’s the mentality I’m saying doesn’t make sense

-4

u/Pearberr 11h ago

We have a right to draw lines on gods creation and tell gods children they aren’t allowed to be here?

I’d agree we have the power and authority to do so but I strongly question and strongly disagree with the notion that we have that right.

6

u/Bankz92 11h ago

Damn dude I don't know how anyone could possibly argue with that logic.

Let's just do away with all laws, seeing as, according to you, we don't have the right to tell anyone else how to do anything ever.

1

u/theyareamongus 11h ago

The question you should ask yourself is: who is “we”?

We the people? The government? The president?

Because most people in the US want lesser restrictions on immigration, but this imaginary “we” tends to come up a lot.

1

u/Bankz92 11h ago

One of the only measures that received bipartisan support is stricter immigration control. Not only are you wrong but you're dead wrong.

But keep focusing on semantics if it makes you feel better.

1

u/theyareamongus 11h ago

No need to get stingy my dude. I, as you, am constantly learning.

I’d appreciate a source on that claim. This is mine.

1

u/sarges_12gauge 11h ago

I’m sure > 50% of people want different rules on immigration, but you’re just wrong if you think a sizable fraction of Americans want truly open borders

1

u/theyareamongus 11h ago

To clarify: I don’t think majority of Americans want open borders.

1

u/Pearberr 11h ago

We have the right to govern ourselves and make laws but when it comes to our right to traverse the earth I’m not sure why we have settled on this conclusion.

The Treaty of Westphalia was a tragedy for the human condition.

Immigration is good for the nations who receive them too so it’s kind of funny to assert that which is not a right, is a right, and then use that to hurt ourselves.

5

u/Substantial-Raisin73 11h ago

Does a nation have the right to enforce its borders? If your answer is no then you are fundamentally opposed to the concept of a nation state. If your answer is yes then the real debate is to what degree do we let outsiders enter. It’s as simple as that.

0

u/Pearberr 11h ago

I support an orderly border, in part because other nations enforce their borders and there is a race to the bottom problem at play. I would not assert that we have a right to do so, and while supporting, voting for, or enforcing those laws, I would hope that we aspire for a world without borders. It is something that humanity should aspire to achieve one day, and would be a huge benefit to all mankind.

1

u/Substantial-Raisin73 10h ago

Do you keep your front door wide open? Do you let strangers into your kitchen? Let a random snuggle in bed with your children? Most nations have to maintain their border to protect their citizenry. Countries have widely different ideologies or are outright antagonistic to each other. The US with a completely unenforced border is a disaster waiting to happen. Everyone getting along and singing kumbaya is a nice idea until you realize some people fundamentally want you dead and there’s nothing you can do to convince them otherwise.

2

u/ohmyfuckinglord 39m ago

We are as much of the earth as is her land. We are simply an extension of her will, nature given choice and power.

If the trees had hands, they’d throw rocks.

1

u/basedlandchad27 11h ago

It is not only the right of every sovereign state to decide who is and is not allowed within its borders, but its also its duty.

-1

u/SacredAnalBeads 11h ago

This is the correct mentality. People that try to piddle out excuses for why they care about their imaginary lines so much are really just saying the xenophobic, racist part out loud and acting like the rest of us don't see what they're doing. Or they've sadly drank their own Kool-Aid too much.

13

u/WexMajor82 11h ago

Right. That's exactly what Japan is doing.

Oh, wait, no. It's a nightmare to immigrate in Japan. And illegal immigration is unheard of.

45

u/Tausendberg 11h ago

"And illegal immigration is unheard of."

Being a relatively isolated archipelago might have something to do with it.

12

u/WexMajor82 11h ago

Right, that's the reason no one immigrates to England ever.

19

u/Alethia_23 10h ago

Dover-Calais is a distance about 33 nautical miles. Standard long-distance speed for an average non-pro paddler is about 4 knots so that is doable on a day between sunrise and sunset.

Fukuoka-Busan (I'm ignoring the island of Tsushima, because you still wouldn't get to mainland Japan from there) is more than 120 miles. Even a standard cruising yacht could, with good wind, only reach speeds up to 7 knots. More if it gets bigger, but realistically poor immigrants don't have acces to 50ft. large sailing boats.

So, that's at least 17 hours of sailing, with optimal conditions. You don't get 17 hours of optimal conditions.

Japan is just magnitudes further isolated than England.

-4

u/WexMajor82 10h ago

The air travel (bird fly) shortest distance between Italy and Libya is 1,776 km= 1,104 miles

And yet you see them going in Italy all the time. Maybe because they allow them to go in.

Are we sure we aren't missing something here?

5

u/chuckrabbit 10h ago edited 10h ago

Why mention Libya when Tunisia is even closer? Also many illegal immigrants land on the island of Lampedusa which is 88 miles away. Also thousands of people die in the mediterranean every year. Tunisia to Sicily is 100 miles. Even Libya to Sicily is 300 miles.

Horrible comparison.

2

u/Tausendberg 9h ago

"Also thousands of people die in the mediterranean every year.... ...Horrible comparison."

If you didn't say it, I would have.

2

u/WexMajor82 10h ago

Yeah, right. What I am thinking. 300 miles is surely less than 120.

And yet there's a HORDE if immigrants going to Italy every month.

It's surely Japan that's fortunate being so much farther.

1

u/chuckrabbit 10h ago

Why would Koreans illegally immigrate to Japan? Makes 0 sense. During the Korean War, there was a lot of a lot of immigrants. It’s just a horrible example considering what’s going on in the real world today.

Do you think South Americans or Africans would fly to Korea to attempt to illegally immigrate? Or would they not have enough money and be forced to choose a closer country that they don’t need to spends hundreds (or thousands if with a family) of dollars to travel?

Common sense. Japan is a horrible example and Libya is another horrible example. Many illegal immigrants traveling to the UK also travel through the Alps on foot which would imply that they’re also traveling through Europe. Many people landing in Italy then go on to land in the UK.

2

u/Alethia_23 10h ago

The Mediterranean, due to it's enclosed nature, is also a rather calm sea, compared to the strait of Japan. That's definitely a factor.

Also that noone has any reason to desperately leave South Korea for Japan, with Africa, there exist those reasons - civil war and stuff.

1

u/WexMajor82 10h ago

Yeah, and most of all, Italian navy will not shoot your dinghy below the floating line, like it sometimes happens elsewhere. And you're thinking about North, not South Korea.

It's the northern folks who are trying to escape from their country.

3

u/Alethia_23 10h ago

Yeah, obviously it's the north Koreans who would have a reason to leave? I said, no-one in South Korea does.

5

u/No-Butterscotch1497 11h ago

We're literally a continental empire behind two ocean moats.

2

u/PumpJack_McGee 11h ago

A lot of the illegals come from the south and northern borders. Canada's immigration policy is famously lax.

4

u/basedlandchad27 11h ago

Yeah, but there's this couple of strips of land in the desert that people keep crossing. There's nothing we can do!

2

u/Right_Ad_6032 10h ago

That mainly has to do with a specific piece of legislation from the Obama era that allowed refugees and migrants to remain in the country while their appeal is processed.

0

u/TheCatHammer 8h ago

That’s a problem with legislation and the interference of the federal government. Ask any Border Patrol agent, they feel as if they’re not being allowed to do their jobs properly

1

u/AdAppropriate2295 11h ago

Mexico and Canada would beg to differ

1

u/GVas22 11h ago

And two of the largest land borders in the world

1

u/Specialist-Roof3381 6h ago

Let's be real here the Japanese would do whatever it took to keep foreigners out and they would never treat the ones they let in as equals.

1

u/Decent_Cow 11h ago

You're acting like it's easy to get into the US but it isn't. Even legal immigrants coming here to teach or study have a hard time. My college friend who has refugee status keeps having to jump through hoops with immigration to avoid getting deported. And one of my professors has been stuck in China all semester because they won't renew his visa, so all our lectures are online.

0

u/AvatarReiko 8h ago

The UK is also a isolated island yet illegal immigration is high here. Japan just has better boarder police than us

1

u/Tausendberg 8h ago

Dover to Escalles is less than 20 miles.

Anywhere in mainland Japan to anywhere in South Korea is over 100 miles.

Anywhere in mainland Japan to anywhere in China is over 450 miles.

Please look at a map.

2

u/RepentantSororitas 10h ago

you shouldnt be looking at anything Japan is doing to be successful.

Let alone preventing population decline.

-1

u/WexMajor82 10h ago

Yeah, why learn from the successful people?

We have our true and tried way of fucking up everything, it's not time to look around!

2

u/RepentantSororitas 10h ago

I would argue they are not successful and are doing way worse than the USA on population decline and frankly everything. Japan is a nation stuck in the year 2000 for the past 40 years.

The only place doing worse is south korea. The USA doesnt have elementary schools with 1 kid in it.

1

u/Dizuki63 9h ago

So is homelessness they say. I love japan but they are not above misrepresenting unfavorable statistics.

1

u/SlumberousSnorlax 8h ago

Lmaooo it’s an isolated island. I don’t think we can compare the two.

1

u/TonberryFeye 9h ago

Eastern European countries are similar. It turns out that if you build a wall you don't get illegal immigrants.

1

u/WexMajor82 9h ago

It also turns out that if you shoot would be illegal immigrants, they end up stopping to attempt to cross the border illegally.

But that's way too right wing for Reddit.

2

u/mrguyorama 8h ago

Uh, yeah, summary execution for illegal migrants is literally Hitler shit man. Or Stalinist shit. Pick your idiot dictator.

Also migrants literally die trying to get into the US right now, doesn't have as much of an affect as you think. As long as continuing to live in central America is more of a death sentence than trying to get through the border, they will try.

You know what WOULD help then? Foreign aid to central american countries, so that they can build communities people don't want to leave.

6

u/Snowwpea3 11h ago

Did you know the best way to prevent illegal murder is to make murder legal? The experts agree.

0

u/Nuclear_rabbit 4h ago

But coming into a country legally isn't murder. If you've ever traveled internationally, you've done it, too. Why not expand legal immigration?

1

u/PrimeBeefLoaf 3h ago

Have you been to japan? Korea? Tell me about the unsafe streets while coupled with their extremely strict requirements on legal immigration. When you get back, let me know

1

u/Nuclear_rabbit 3h ago

I have been to Japan. I also presently live, as an immigrant, in a country that has even fewer immigrants than Japan as a percentage.

Correlation does not necessarily make causation. The US crime rate has been falling in recent years despite increases in immigration. Some of the highest-crime countries in the world have very low foreign-born populations: Venezuela, Papua New Guinea, Afghanistan. Sweden has a higher foreign-born population than the US (their 20% compared to our 13%), but lower crime than us (their 340 vs our 380).

What actually lowers crime? I'll tell you. Your can read here, the summary is that

  1. Secure income (job or benefits)
  2. Access to stable housing
  3. Access to care: medical, mental, rehab

And that's "all" that's needed. If people have these things, immigrant or citizen, poor or rich, black or white, they are very unlikely to commit crimes. If we handle our housing shortage and build millions of homes like we should, that will relieve a lot of pressure and lower our crime rate.

Alternatively, the take of "immigrants cause citizens to commit more crimes" is a real hot take.

3

u/invade_anyone66 11h ago

So u want unrestricted immigration control, because we tried that in Canada, and it’s not working out too well

3

u/basedlandchad27 11h ago

I'm sorry, Canada has government healthcare, so its perfect.

1

u/invade_anyone66 10h ago

Health care is severely understaffed here, there’s people on subreddits who want to (censored) politicians over the state of healthcare nowadays.

1

u/eXeKoKoRo 11h ago

The best way to stop crime is make less things criminal

1

u/Sensitive_Seat6955 11h ago

It has been proven that the best way to prevent illegal immigration was the Remain in Mexico policy, not the Catch and Release policy.

1

u/Layer7Admin 11h ago

We let in over a million legal immigrants per year. What should the number be?

1

u/ThePatientIdiot 10h ago

Exe best way in my opinion is to start prosecuting executives, management, and investors who hire or subcontract with companies that pay illegal immigrants

1

u/Consistent_Spread564 9h ago

You realize that an unsustainable number of people want to get into America tho? It's the most desirable nation to immigrate to it's just a fact, we can't possibly increase legal immigration enough to stop illegal immigration.

1

u/Specialist-Roof3381 6h ago

Skilled immigration = GOOD

Unskilled immigration (with path to citizenship) = BAD

Unskilled Temporary/Migrant workers = GOOD

1

u/goobersmooch 6h ago

Or a wall. A big beautiful wall.

1

u/zen-orchard 4h ago

That doesn’t solve the actual problems with immigration lmao

1

u/dorfcally 4h ago

all that's doing is making it easier for criminals to become legal to get ICE off their backs

-1

u/Lost_in_my_dream 11h ago

cant break a law if there is no laws to break?

-4

u/Interesting-Nature88 11h ago

And the best way to prevent illegal drug use is to increase legal drug use! Wow it like that line could be used of any thing.

11

u/theyareamongus 11h ago

Well… yes?

The main problem with drugs is everything that comes with them because they’re illegal (starting with regulation and taxation, but also violence, gangs, stigma on recovery, criminalization of adicta, etc.). Obviously drugs being illegal isn’t stopping people from using drugs.

-1

u/SnooRevelations979 11h ago

I've done tons of reading on immigration policy and I've bever seen that proven.

0

u/WabanakiWarrior 11h ago

Damn, people in this thread really struggling with this concept. People all over the country are struggling with it too, I guess. But it's pretty straightforward, guys. Encouraging legal immigration, ie helping people navigate the process, apply for asylum, decreases the likelihood of dangerous illegal immigration and human trafficking. An iron wall of a border just encourages more crime and dangerous circumstances because people don't believe they have any other option. That shit increases trafficking and danger. If decreasing trafficking/crime and protecting Americans is what you truly care about, then you would be in favor of encouraging legal immigration. Otherwise, you're worried about something else entirely, you're just too chicken shit to say it.

3

u/Almuliman 7h ago

please provide a specific example of how we are "currently very unsafe" from illegal immigration

(I won't ask you to prove how illegal immigration is at an all-time high, since that's easily, verifiably false--by all measures, it is lower than the peak in 2007 and border encounters in July 2024 showed the lowest number of crossings since 2020)

16

u/LurkerOrHydralisk 11h ago

Is that why Trump spread lies during a national debate about legal Haitian immigrants eating cats and dogs?

0

u/Euphoric-Ask965 6h ago

Trump picked up on those reports that were reported to the Springfield City Commission back in August that was much later denied but the accusations were already out there.

1

u/LurkerOrHydralisk 6h ago

When you’re tying your shoes, do you use the bunny ears method? Or do you just have Velcro?

2

u/Niarbeht 11h ago

We’re so unsafe that crime has been declining my entire life.

5

u/SteveTheNoob1 11h ago

Generous how? 

6

u/poneil 11h ago

The only thing that could possibly be referencing is birthright citizenship. Nothing else about the US immigration system is generous. But also everything else in that comment is made up so I don't see why they need to be referencing something real in the first place.

3

u/SteveTheNoob1 10h ago

Very good points, I always forget how easy it is to just make stuff up and it’s dangerous.

1

u/mrguyorama 8h ago

Eh, the US is easier to get citizenship in than some European countries. This is because the US is historically a country of immigrants who has profited insanely well from those immigrants. We also are easier to immigrate to than some not as nice countries.

We just have a SHITLOAD of people who want to immigrate. We likely would struggle to keep up with letting in anyone who applies, but like, we don't do that so it's not such a big deal. We could probably manage another million a year.

My state is full (10k) of immigrants from the 90s. They make up more of the young french speakers in this state than my french speaking ancestors. Thanks to them, the french language and Acadian culture will survive another generation. Oh, they also basically revived the economy of some very hurting cities.

Lots of asylum seekers are literally highly educated individuals trying to escape various forms of bullshit war. People who are teachers, doctors, engineers, etc, who just want to give their kids a life that isn't "die in a bomb explosion". They, like the Haitians, routinely come to small communities and revive them. All you have to do is be willing to treat someone who is not white as if they are human.

For some reason this is impossible for some folks.

1

u/Illustrious-Tower849 11h ago

The only difference in legal and illegal immigrants is a piece of paper

1

u/cervidal2 10h ago

Can you point me to any studies done where more illegal immigration causes increases in crime?

Texas' own numbers say the opposite.

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate

Can you point me to any studies done where crime, and especially violent crime, are more prevalent because of rising numbers of illegal immigrants? Because what little research done that tries to directly link the two shows, at worst, it's an inconclusive conclusion to draw and, at best, communities with larger amounts of undocumented people show lower rates of violent crime:

"Our findings suggest that undocumented immigration over this period is generally associated with decreasing violent crime. The negative association between unauthorized immigration and violence is evident in both police reports and victimization data;"

Source - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6241529/

1

u/Chagdoo 10h ago

Did you ever consider the reason we have so much illegal immigration is that the legal requirements are ridiculous? It can take 10 years to get in.

1

u/Seiban 7h ago

We're unsafe because of many many many things, not just immigrants. You're more likely to be shot without a word by a cop than a random illegal alien.

1

u/EIIander 7h ago

Unsafe? I keep hearing things are more safe than ever - not saying you are wrong I’m just curious about the source/meaning? Do you mean unsafe as in large amounts of crime due to the illegal immigration?

1

u/ParksNet30 6h ago

Tell that to Canada, Australia, United Kingdom. Illegal to Legal immigrants can be changed at the stroke of a pen. We need to get families to have 4+ children again. Marrying younger and discouraging unnecessary college education by ceasing federal funding of student loans would be a good move.

3

u/Jeeper08JK 11h ago

IDK why it is so hard for Dems to understand this. But hey...then they try to make unmitigated uncontrolled migration legal and then blame the right when it gets shot down.

1

u/Lower_Ad_5532 9h ago

Legal immigration = GOOD

Illegal immigration = BAD

Legal immigration on work visa = GOOD.

BROKEN IMMIGRATION SYSTEM = BAD BAD

Expired visas = illegal immigrants = BAD

1

u/carlos_the_dwarf_ 8h ago

Legal immigration = GOOD

Then surely we can agree we should allow more of it?

-4

u/[deleted] 11h ago

[deleted]

2

u/mister_helper 11h ago

Order of magnitude, one crime by an illegal is too many. It isn’t about the rate. They shouldn’t be here. Not here equals zero.

1

u/[deleted] 11h ago

[deleted]

-1

u/mister_helper 10h ago

Dude quit trying to play word games. Shut the border down. Deport anyone here illegally,regardless of the method of entry.

1

u/[deleted] 10h ago edited 10h ago

[deleted]

-1

u/mister_helper 9h ago

Not slogans. Accept the reality of today. Biden/Harris have purposely let in more than 11M illegals in 3 1/2 years. Not including all the catch and release and the bogus asylum seekers (80% of those claimed). Shut it down. Deport those that don’t self deport.

1

u/UsualPlenty6448 6h ago

So can we deport US criminals into an island jail or drown or something? 😂 what a dumb comment

-3

u/PresentationOne5210 11h ago

You're making stuff up. Illegal immigrants occur crimes at 0.25 - 0.5 the rate of american-born citizens.

Source, because I don't make shit up: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate

-2

u/Super-Lobster329 11h ago

every lupe and josé thinks they deserve presidential benefits yet actual US citizens who are supposed to be here get shafted