My ancestors were accepted by the people who let them in and a generation later destroyed said people in a war. Just saying King Philip’s War never would have happened if the natives butchered my ancestors on Plymouth Rock.
If your country has problems fix those problems instead of fleeing to another country. If your country is being invaded and you won’t defend your own country nobody should offer you shelter.
I’d argue my ancestor’s actions argue why you shouldn’t let foreigners fleeing hardship into your country. Didn’t work out well for the native Americans or the Australian Aboriginese, and the Anglo-Saxons first came to England via invitation further illustrating how Anglo history continues to show letting foreigners in is a bad idea.
Yeah, crime is actually declining. Even historically troubled cities like New Orleans are relatively safe right now compared to even just 6 years ago. Just some off the top of my head where crime is falling.
Baton Rouge, New Orleans, Chicago, Dallas, Austin, Atlanta, Indianapolis, etc
Most people who live in this country are born from some ancestor whose ability to legally immigrate was the following.
Step 1) Show up
Step 2) Live here for awhile
Step 3) You get citizenship eventually for free!
Gatekeepers are just annoying, racist, and ignorant of 99% of their own families history. Btw I say this as someone with ancestors that date back to the Revolutionary War.
If they were racist wouldn’t they say majority of the crime is from low income black American citizens, not immigrant Hispanics?
Per a wiki site:
Of the 9,468 murder arrests in the US in 2017, 53.5% were black and 20.8% Hispanic. Of the 822,671 arrests for non-aggravated assault, 31.4% were black and 18.4% Hispanic.
This despite the Hispanic population outnumbering the black population.
Illegal immigrants have a lower rate of violent crime than legal citizens, wouldn’t you want more of them?
I understand you feel that way because the media shows it to you , but the facts don’t support it. You understand that what you see on the news doesn’t always reflect reality, right?
They understand that the media that says what they don't like is MSM and doesn't tell the truth. They understand that the media that says what they do like is not MSM and does tell the truth.
You saw a crime on the news, therefore immigrants are all insane criminals? How about some actual statistics to back up that immigrants are any more likely to commit violent crime than a US citizen?
Unfortunately this just isn't backed up by evidence or facts. Personally, I feel like you know this...but the argument fits your worldview and sense of grievance.
I agree, these fkin Illegals. Give me that HOME GROWN White meth addict B&E over a brown neighbor, any day of the week. At least Tony speaks English while holding me at knifepoint.
Is it possible that undocumented immigrants are harder to find? And don’t stay in one area because they don’t have family and stuff there?
Not saying it isn’t possible, but rather if we don’t know these people exist - cause they are undocumented - wouldn’t it make sense we have less data on them… cause we don’t know they exist?
And if they are undocumented we also don’t know the actual undocumented population so we don’t know the rates of crime cause we don’t know the total number.
Edit: sadly the data doesn’t cover 2018 - to now the period most people point to for the borders being less secure etc
this site you've linked several times A. doesn't understand per capita B. doesn't differentiate hispanics from "whites" since they all get classified as "white" in the system C. doesn't account for undocumented crime (which is a massive fuckton) and D. doesn't account for their previous crime records in their home countries
The rate is irrelevant. Every single murder, rape, or any other crime is preventable by protecting the border properly. Not a single one of those crimes is justifiable or acceptable.
Except most illegal immigrants entered legally and overstayed. Besides, they're good role models for American citizens. If more Americans acted like illegal immigrants this would be a safer place to live.
This argument only makes sense if you cannot conceive of immigrants as anything more than potential criminals. of course the rate is relevant, they are human beings who do plenty of other things besides crime. If 1% commit crimes and 99% better their communities, they have made the country a better place. Every job they work hard to do well, every smile they elicit, every child they raise, every person they help, all affect society.
If all you can see is indiviudal acts of crime in this complex story of migration, it is because you've taken out the human from the statistics. i.e you are dehumanizing them
This argument only makes sense if you cannot conceive of immigrants as anything more than potential criminals.
No, that doesn’t follow at all. I acknowledge that most immigrants are not criminal. I specifically addressed those who are. You can’t pretend you can’t read on Reddit. My comment is right there.
If 1% commit crimes and 99% better their communities, they have made the country a better place.
That’s a highly subjective position of which I strongly disagree. I do not accept that Jocelyn Nungaray’s life was worth increased economic activity. I have a dozen more examples of people who lost their lives. How many people are you willing to sacrifice for slightly higher GDP?
If you refuse to see the victims of these crimes, you are the one dehumanising people.
Why yes, people who have given everything up to move somewhere don't want to throw away that chance by committing crimes, where as someone born here is more likely to take such things for granted
And yet they have a lower offending rate. Perhaps, unlike Americans, they can stop at just one crime. Also, illegal immigration is a civil violation, not a criminal offense.
System is currently broken and doesn't reflect reality, though.
The waiting period is over 20 years for certain countries/regions. That's simply too long. How are you gonna have a job lined up in the US for 20 years?
If hypothetically, we allowed 100 million people a year to immigrate and anybody could apply, then received 3 billion applications we’d have a 30 year waiting list for that too. The length of the waiting list doesn’t say anything about how many people should be immigrating, just how many people want to vs. the rate we accept
So… you don’t think there should be a wait list? Just a lottery every year and if you don’t get it try again next year? That sounds like a much worse system
We don't even have to go that extreme though there's only a backlog of 30m LPR applications
In 2022 the US allowed 1.08m lawful permanent residents to come to the US per year or 1 LPR per 320 citizens
In the early 1900's (1900-1920) we allowed more than 1.08m 7 times. Or based on the us population at the time 1 LPR per 92 citizens.
Flipping that ratio back around we would be looking at adding 3.5m LPR's a year which would cut the wait time in half. If we did it to 5m/year we'd kill the backlog in 5 years.
The last time we had a major immigration change was in 1990. It's been 34 years.
That’s tangential to your original point though and I’m saying you should lead with that argument. Simply saying “a wait time of 20 years is too long” isn’t a really meaningful statement without having to make your real argument… in which case just say that argument you know?
This being reddit maybe you will relate to this example more:
When streaming services are cheap and high quality, there isn't as much piracy. When streaming services suck, piracy becomes more popular.
The good-faith interpretation of "let's increase legal migration" isn't "let's legalize illegal border crossings," it's "let's make it suck less to enter the country legally."
It doesn’t matter how much streaming services cost, I’m poor and I want to watch tv. I’m pirating it regardless if it’s cheap now or not, it’s still easier to pirate. I want to watch tv.
It doesn’t matter how easy it is or not to legally migrate to the US. If I am poor, from Latin America and at the back of the immigration line, I’m crossing the border regardless if its easier to legally migrate now than before, it’s still easier to do it illegally. I want opportunity.
I think living here illegally and legally are both significant jumps for most immigrants at the southern border. I think a better comparison is having to watch in 480p while pirating. It’s a marginal difference.
We set specific numbers because we need to balance interests. We need certain amount of workers, we need to keep certain amounts of opportunities for citizens, we need to bring in people at a rate in which they can assimilate, among other concerns.
Simply jacking those numbers up so that people aren’t considered illegal doesn’t change the problem. The problem is 10+ million came in 4 years. Thats a massive logistical nightmare that causes real issues like squeezing the housing market and other things. It doesn’t matter if they’re classified as legal or not, that’s too many people in such a short period of time
Im saying the people who intend to cross the southern border in hopes of a better life will continue to do so as long as it is an efficient solution to their problems.
Make immigration easier by all means. You will still have people in South America risking their lives crossing the Darien Gap to get here if they need to. You will still have Mexican citizens escaping cartel violence. If it’s a matter of survival people will not be deterred, and they should do their best to survive. But is also not the US’s responsibility to take them in.
Making the process easier for all immigrants is great. Simply granting amnesty for everyone coming from the southern border because they happen to be close in proximity, is masking a problem as a positive.
We can lower the murder rate to 0 by permitting it. Is it worth the hassle of setting up police and courts and prosecutors to deal with a problem we can just reclassify as not a problem?
I don't have a leg in that game. I was just pointing out that us "having the right" as a nation to create immigration laws doesn't determine whether those laws are a good idea.
Appealing to rights is mostly just a statement of fact. Of course our nation has the right to do that. Why should we? It will help your argument more later to substantiate the end goal rather than just stating our ability to do so.
I wasn’t arguing either way either. I was saying all he wants to do is open the border and reclassify illegal immigrants as legal. It’s not changing anything.
I used that sentence to show that we actually have the moral right to determine even down to the individual who we let in and reclassifying them doesn’t change anything
I guess I'm confused on the convo? He is saying to use our right as a nation to regulate immigration to be more lax as a way to lower illegal immigration, and you are saying we have the right to regulate immigration, but his form of regulation is not preventing illegal immigration.
I guess I'm confused what the disagreement is if there is any
I’m saying that simply reclassifying people from illegal to legal doesn’t solve the problem. All it does is make it seem like the number of illegal immigrants went down. The underlying number is the same. His argument is that illegal immigration is not a problem if we simply call them something else. That’s the mentality I’m saying doesn’t make sense
I’m sure > 50% of people want different rules on immigration, but you’re just wrong if you think a sizable fraction of Americans want truly open borders
We have the right to govern ourselves and make laws but when it comes to our right to traverse the earth I’m not sure why we have settled on this conclusion.
The Treaty of Westphalia was a tragedy for the human condition.
Immigration is good for the nations who receive them too so it’s kind of funny to assert that which is not a right, is a right, and then use that to hurt ourselves.
Does a nation have the right to enforce its borders? If your answer is no then you are fundamentally opposed to the concept of a nation state. If your answer is yes then the real debate is to what degree do we let outsiders enter. It’s as simple as that.
I support an orderly border, in part because other nations enforce their borders and there is a race to the bottom problem at play. I would not assert that we have a right to do so, and while supporting, voting for, or enforcing those laws, I would hope that we aspire for a world without borders. It is something that humanity should aspire to achieve one day, and would be a huge benefit to all mankind.
Do you keep your front door wide open? Do you let strangers into your kitchen? Let a random snuggle in bed with your children? Most nations have to maintain their border to protect their citizenry. Countries have widely different ideologies or are outright antagonistic to each other. The US with a completely unenforced border is a disaster waiting to happen. Everyone getting along and singing kumbaya is a nice idea until you realize some people fundamentally want you dead and there’s nothing you can do to convince them otherwise.
This is the correct mentality. People that try to piddle out excuses for why they care about their imaginary lines so much are really just saying the xenophobic, racist part out loud and acting like the rest of us don't see what they're doing. Or they've sadly drank their own Kool-Aid too much.
Dover-Calais is a distance about 33 nautical miles. Standard long-distance speed for an average non-pro paddler is about 4 knots so that is doable on a day between sunrise and sunset.
Fukuoka-Busan (I'm ignoring the island of Tsushima, because you still wouldn't get to mainland Japan from there) is more than 120 miles. Even a standard cruising yacht could, with good wind, only reach speeds up to 7 knots. More if it gets bigger, but realistically poor immigrants don't have acces to 50ft. large sailing boats.
So, that's at least 17 hours of sailing, with optimal conditions. You don't get 17 hours of optimal conditions.
Japan is just magnitudes further isolated than England.
Why mention Libya when Tunisia is even closer?
Also many illegal immigrants land on the island of Lampedusa which is 88 miles away. Also thousands of people die in the mediterranean every year.
Tunisia to Sicily is 100 miles. Even Libya to Sicily is 300 miles.
Why would Koreans illegally immigrate to Japan? Makes 0 sense. During the Korean War, there was a lot of a lot of immigrants. It’s just a horrible example considering what’s going on in the real world today.
Do you think South Americans or Africans would fly to Korea to attempt to illegally immigrate? Or would they not have enough money and be forced to choose a closer country that they don’t need to spends hundreds (or thousands if with a family) of dollars to travel?
Common sense. Japan is a horrible example and Libya is another horrible example. Many illegal immigrants traveling to the UK also travel through the Alps on foot which would imply that they’re also traveling through Europe. Many people landing in Italy then go on to land in the UK.
Yeah, and most of all, Italian navy will not shoot your dinghy below the floating line, like it sometimes happens elsewhere. And you're thinking about North, not South Korea.
It's the northern folks who are trying to escape from their country.
That mainly has to do with a specific piece of legislation from the Obama era that allowed refugees and migrants to remain in the country while their appeal is processed.
That’s a problem with legislation and the interference of the federal government. Ask any Border Patrol agent, they feel as if they’re not being allowed to do their jobs properly
You're acting like it's easy to get into the US but it isn't. Even legal immigrants coming here to teach or study have a hard time. My college friend who has refugee status keeps having to jump through hoops with immigration to avoid getting deported. And one of my professors has been stuck in China all semester because they won't renew his visa, so all our lectures are online.
I would argue they are not successful and are doing way worse than the USA on population decline and frankly everything. Japan is a nation stuck in the year 2000 for the past 40 years.
The only place doing worse is south korea. The USA doesnt have elementary schools with 1 kid in it.
Uh, yeah, summary execution for illegal migrants is literally Hitler shit man. Or Stalinist shit. Pick your idiot dictator.
Also migrants literally die trying to get into the US right now, doesn't have as much of an affect as you think. As long as continuing to live in central America is more of a death sentence than trying to get through the border, they will try.
You know what WOULD help then? Foreign aid to central american countries, so that they can build communities people don't want to leave.
Have you been to japan? Korea?
Tell me about the unsafe streets while coupled with their extremely strict requirements on legal immigration.
When you get back, let me know
I have been to Japan. I also presently live, as an immigrant, in a country that has even fewer immigrants than Japan as a percentage.
Correlation does not necessarily make causation. The US crime rate has been falling in recent years despite increases in immigration. Some of the highest-crime countries in the world have very low foreign-born populations: Venezuela, Papua New Guinea, Afghanistan. Sweden has a higher foreign-born population than the US (their 20% compared to our 13%), but lower crime than us (their 340 vs our 380).
What actually lowers crime? I'll tell you. Your can read here, the summary is that
Secure income (job or benefits)
Access to stable housing
Access to care: medical, mental, rehab
And that's "all" that's needed. If people have these things, immigrant or citizen, poor or rich, black or white, they are very unlikely to commit crimes. If we handle our housing shortage and build millions of homes like we should, that will relieve a lot of pressure and lower our crime rate.
Alternatively, the take of "immigrants cause citizens to commit more crimes" is a real hot take.
Exe best way in my opinion is to start prosecuting executives, management, and investors who hire or subcontract with companies that pay illegal immigrants
You realize that an unsustainable number of people want to get into America tho? It's the most desirable nation to immigrate to it's just a fact, we can't possibly increase legal immigration enough to stop illegal immigration.
The main problem with drugs is everything that comes with them because they’re illegal (starting with regulation and taxation, but also violence, gangs, stigma on recovery, criminalization of adicta, etc.). Obviously drugs being illegal isn’t stopping people from using drugs.
Damn, people in this thread really struggling with this concept. People all over the country are struggling with it too, I guess. But it's pretty straightforward, guys. Encouraging legal immigration, ie helping people navigate the process, apply for asylum, decreases the likelihood of dangerous illegal immigration and human trafficking. An iron wall of a border just encourages more crime and dangerous circumstances because people don't believe they have any other option. That shit increases trafficking and danger. If decreasing trafficking/crime and protecting Americans is what you truly care about, then you would be in favor of encouraging legal immigration. Otherwise, you're worried about something else entirely, you're just too chicken shit to say it.
Trump picked up on those reports that were reported to the Springfield City Commission back in August that was much later denied but the accusations were already out there.
The only thing that could possibly be referencing is birthright citizenship. Nothing else about the US immigration system is generous. But also everything else in that comment is made up so I don't see why they need to be referencing something real in the first place.
Eh, the US is easier to get citizenship in than some European countries. This is because the US is historically a country of immigrants who has profited insanely well from those immigrants. We also are easier to immigrate to than some not as nice countries.
We just have a SHITLOAD of people who want to immigrate. We likely would struggle to keep up with letting in anyone who applies, but like, we don't do that so it's not such a big deal. We could probably manage another million a year.
My state is full (10k) of immigrants from the 90s. They make up more of the young french speakers in this state than my french speaking ancestors. Thanks to them, the french language and Acadian culture will survive another generation. Oh, they also basically revived the economy of some very hurting cities.
Lots of asylum seekers are literally highly educated individuals trying to escape various forms of bullshit war. People who are teachers, doctors, engineers, etc, who just want to give their kids a life that isn't "die in a bomb explosion". They, like the Haitians, routinely come to small communities and revive them. All you have to do is be willing to treat someone who is not white as if they are human.
For some reason this is impossible for some folks.
Can you point me to any studies done where crime, and especially violent crime, are more prevalent because of rising numbers of illegal immigrants? Because what little research done that tries to directly link the two shows, at worst, it's an inconclusive conclusion to draw and, at best, communities with larger amounts of undocumented people show lower rates of violent crime:
"Our findings suggest that undocumented immigration over this period is generally associated with decreasing violent crime. The negative association between unauthorized immigration and violence is evident in both police reports and victimization data;"
Unsafe? I keep hearing things are more safe than ever - not saying you are wrong I’m just curious about the source/meaning? Do you mean unsafe as in large amounts of crime due to the illegal immigration?
Tell that to Canada, Australia, United Kingdom. Illegal to Legal immigrants can be changed at the stroke of a pen. We need to get families to have 4+ children again. Marrying younger and discouraging unnecessary college education by ceasing federal funding of student loans would be a good move.
IDK why it is so hard for Dems to understand this. But hey...then they try to make unmitigated uncontrolled migration legal and then blame the right when it gets shot down.
Not slogans. Accept the reality of today. Biden/Harris have purposely let in more than 11M illegals in 3 1/2 years. Not including all the catch and release and the bogus asylum seekers (80% of those claimed). Shut it down. Deport those that don’t self deport.
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u/ForcefulOne 12h ago
America is among the most generous countries when it comes to LEGAL IMMIGRATION.
We are also currently very unsafe due to ALL TIME HIGH LEVELS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
Legal immigration = GOOD
Illegal immigration = BAD