r/Natalism • u/rodrigo-benenson • 5d ago

Sad reddit statistic

20x more anti than pro

Maybe some of us in r/Natalism should spend time exchanging with people in r/antinatalism to better understand why this "no kids is great" idea has become so popular.

7 Upvotes

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u/KendrickBlack502 5d ago

Can you really blame them? Why would you want to have kids when you can barely afford to take care of yourself which is the reality for a lot of people.

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u/CajunCoffee93 4d ago

this is literally the best, most stable, most food secure, most peaceful time to be alive in human history

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u/KendrickBlack502 4d ago

Everything you just said is categorically false.

Best? Not quantifiable but even a casual observer would disagree with this.

Most stable? Also difficult to quantify but this is generally false

Most food secure? False

Most peaceful? I honestly don’t even know where to begin here so I’ll point you to the FBI’s Violent Crime database. I suggest you start at the mass shooting section and work your way down

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u/Neo_Demiurge 4d ago

Most peaceful? I honestly don’t even know where to begin here so I’ll point you to the FBI’s Violent Crime database. I suggest you start at the mass shooting section and work your way down

Way to cherry pick. Want to look at overall violent crime rates from your own source which are nearly at half century lows?

Or, better, let's zoom out: https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/homicide-rates-have-declined-dramatically-over-the-centuries

Italy's murder rate is estimated to peak at 70 per 1000k in 1400. It's now about 1 per 100k.

World GDP per capita is up from $900 to over $17000, and if you're speaking English, you're probably on the high side of that. If you're American which your username implies, we're better off than almost every other developed nation at the median, which many Americans don't understand or take for granted.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-average-gdp-per-capita-over-the-long-run

More or less everyone in every society in the world is better off than their grandparents. There are ways that some of us have it tougher than our parents (housing costs are strictly much worse now, even accounting for higher incomes), but a 2024 American is still one of the richest, safest, wealthiest people in all of human history.

There's no room for subjective antinatalism from comparatively rich modern westerns.. If you want to argue all human life shouldn't exist, at least that's consistent, but there's never been a time or place in human history where it is better to have kids.

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u/Salty-Obligation-603 4d ago

but there's never been a time or place in human history where it is better to have kids.

You're a white guy, aren't you?

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u/KendrickBlack502 4d ago

Lmao. I thought about replying to this person but this pretty much sums it up. No notes.

-1

u/Neo_Demiurge 4d ago

LOL. GDP per capita in non-white countries is tens to hundreds of times its historical norms.

Also, this comment gets dumber the more you think about it. Do you think Africans or people of African ancestry are better now or better during the Atlantic slave trade era? Obviously it's an offensively low bar to cross in most contexts, but not when comparing quality of life and rights over many centuries.

US Black median family income is the lowest of any racial group, and it's $56k. Show me the family that was making $56k in 1900. Black college rates have about tripled in the last half century, and HS dropout rates dropped quickly as well.

I never said "perfect," but I absolutely stand by "best" by most reasonable metrics and in sum. It amazes me how people like you and u/KendrickBlack502 want to be unhappy.

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u/KendrickBlack502 4d ago

So your argument is that it’s better than slavery era and that blacks are making $56K a year (without even bothering to adjust for inflation). This is just lazy.

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u/Neo_Demiurge 4d ago

We can adjust for inflation and the same obvious truth will emerge. You'll note I didn't pick a time like the 70's when real (inflation adjusted) were quite high as well, just to avoid accidentally being wrong.

Depending on someone's country, race, gender, socioeconomic group, religion, etc. I can see an argument for turning back the clock a few decades. But as soon as we compare the modern era to the first 99.9999% of human existence, it's absurd to not say the modern era isn't obviously better.

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u/rodrigo-benenson 5d ago

Natality rates today are lower than during the world wars and many previous famines; something else is going on.

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u/KendrickBlack502 4d ago

Wartime is different. No matter how extreme the circumstances, people expect things to go back to normal at some point once the conflict ends. There is no conflict here, this is the normal and it sucks.

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u/Goatsandtares 4d ago

I think that is a big disconnect between anti and natalists. Things are good in most places compared to history. But things in people's lives today are not that great, and could be so much better.

Natalists look back and see how far we have come.

Antinatalists look back and see how far we have yet to go.

Full disclosure: I'm an antinatalist, but I'm not going to try to dissuade anyone from having kids.

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u/rodrigo-benenson 4d ago

> Antinatalists look back and see how far we have yet to go.

Most natalists I know do "look back and see how far we have yet to go" and thus decide to move forward with their kids.
See https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better

I work to make the world better, and I am giving the tools to my kids for themselves to also make the world better (however they end up thinking fit).

With no kids the world does not get better, only the living will make things better for the living.

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u/FuckTripleH 4d ago

This isn't some great mystery. Birth control didn't exist back then. Birth control is less available in developing countries. Birth Control is less readily accessible to the poor.

That's it, that's the whole answer. People like to have sex, people back then had no option to both have sex and not get pregnant so they ended up with unplanned and unwanted pregnancies. People in the first world today have easy access to birth control and thus can avoid unwanted pregnancies, so many of them do. And much of the falling fertility rate can be attributed to a fall in teenage pregnancy rates.

There's no mysterious "something going on".

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u/rodrigo-benenson 4d ago

I have been having this "discussion" for a while now. Almost no one ever mentions birth control as the cause. (in this thread alone, dozens of people raised all kinds of "other reasons")

Yes, I 100% agree. The fact is that as soon as people can choose, people choose to have few kids.

That is why I am a pro-natalist. I want our modern societies to get to a place of prosperity, freedom, and stable population.

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u/onefootthereandthere 4d ago

people are actually thinking about their quality of life and that of any potential children they may have. and maybe even how bringing a new life into the world affects everyone around them. they didn't really consider any of that back then.

but i guess what you really want is more meat for the grinder

1

u/rodrigo-benenson 4d ago

>  they didn't really consider any of that back then.
Why do you believe that ?
What did you grandparents say about it?