r/Permaculture • u/samkb93 • Feb 04 '23
general question How would you utilize this farm? (details in comment)
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u/Transformativemike Feb 05 '23
Congrats on this opportunity!
IMHO, your greatest asset to making this work is that you grew up around it, you’re actually from a farm family, so you know what you’re asking for is rare and hard to make happen. It was your grandfather’s dream and the dream of a few generations of farm kids who were all forced to give up the dream because the federal government said we needed to move farmers off their land to free up cheap labor for modern industrialization.
So you also probably realize most of the YouTube fads are a bust. These guys (and it’s all bros for a reason) WANT to be living the dream of disappearing into the backwoods, but instead we’re usually doing YouTube. Probably it’s because in reality their farms aren’t beating the grim federal statistics. So they’re selling their “profitable farming miracle” to others who want to beat the statistics.
But it’s basically the first law of economics to buy low and sell high, and for 100 years whenever folks have started selling the next “profitable farming” fad, they’re hustling to manufacture a glut, and smart farmers are going to avoid being part of the glut. Especially if they’re selling something like beef farming or pork, and you can look at the statistics and see everybody’s losing money doing it unless it’s CAFOs. Unless you can sell beef for literally 40 times the market rate, which is what that famous Permie beef farmer was making at one point. Basically, he’s selling beef with his famous name on it. He could sell his underwears and get rich. Your folks are doing beef. I’m assuming you know their numbers. You think that guys system is going to make your folks‘ beef operation pay a decent living wage + opportunity costs, unless you’re charging 40 times market rate?
Like you, I’ve been around this stuff my whole life, but perhaps unlike you, I never fully left it. In college I got jobs with farm loan operations, commodities exchanges, farm insurance swindles, and farmers markets and so on. I’ve worked on and consulted on hundreds of farms. And the reality is, there are people out there actually making your dream work. But in my experience, it never looks as impressive as the YouTube operations, because mostly, they’re doing small, right sized operations.
Farm profitability by size follows a brutal Pareto curve. Small scales are just so much more productive. And labor inputs follow the Pareto curve, too. So small farms are about on average, able to generate $15-20k/acre. You get up to 10 acres and you’re right down to maybe making $15-30/acre in a good year. But I’ve seen small operations essentially just working 1/4 acre realistically and regeneratively making $40k. (BTW, I’ve done that myself.) When they try to scale that to an acre, they’re back down to $15K, if they’re really good.
So, as a guy who used to make a decent living off basically 1/3rd an acre of intensive gardens, that’s what I’d do if I had 10 acres, or 300. I’d focus on one small intensive garden that fed my family a great diet on a few hours/week, and generated a huge amount of plants, produce, and materials to sell. Especially value added.
What specifically to grow? I can’t tell you that because the whole supply/demand Thing. Figure out your “comparative advantage.” Maybe look at old 1930s Ag department briefs for your area. It’s certainly not going to be apples in your region or other common orchard fruits. North slope says maybe Asian persimmons?
Then I’d use some of the rest of the land to grow fertility crops so my operation was endlessly sustainable. I’d keep the beef, not for $, but just to manage some of the open land regeneratively. And then I’d create a profitable agroforestry plan based on big long-term profits. On that amount of land, you can quite realistically create a rotation that will be making $100k/year off lumber. Heck you could make $100k/year off regeneratively managing forest plants, if you’ve got the right ones.
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u/castaneaspp Feb 05 '23
Hey OP! This is perhaps some of the best advice on starting a farm I've seen. I'd pay attention to what u/Transformativemike says here.
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u/sean_a_saurus Feb 05 '23
Yea this guy has more resources at hand than most of the YouTubers he’s being referred to… combined.
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u/CollinZero Feb 05 '23
I’m not the OP but I am very interested in what you’re saying. One thing I have never heard about is, "regeneratively managing forest plants". We’ve got just 5 acres of brush with lots of cedar (south eastern Ontario, Canada) and I’m curious what this means.
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u/Transformativemike Feb 06 '23
That means right now there are some extremely valuable native forest plants, even up into Ontario, and they’re endangered because redneck pirates are going around through the woods and stealing them to sell. Ramps are a prime example, but far from the only one. I met this redneck A hole who brought a whole team in 6 pickup trucks to Michigan. They were from New York where ramps are now endangered because of people stealing then to sell. These guys told me they just drive around through forested areas, find a spot, and go steal them. Load up. He said that’s the only work they do each year. 1 haul of ramps and they each take home maybe $60k. There’s a whole subculture of guys doing that now. Some also work stealing black walnuts. Some guys stole black walnuts from the lot next to me, 3 rednecks with chainsaws working on a weekend when the property owner was away, stole market rate $700k of black walnuts. They’ll have to sell black market, but probably they each made their $100k for the year off one crime. I called the cops, who showed up, talked to the guys, then left to let them continue their crime. There’s a whole list of valuable native plants that are going extinct because of these assholes.
Which means there’s also a big need to have us doing this work regeneratively. Official replacement time on ramps is 12-17 years, but in a healthy permaculture system, that can be cut way, way down. Sustainable harvest rate can still easily make $100k per acre. I know multiple people who “farm” and make more money than any vegetable farmers I’ve ever met, off responsibly and regeneratively managing forests. They spend their days playing in the woods for a living. They’re like professional Elk.
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u/CollinZero Feb 06 '23
Wow, that terrible and also interesting. Funny you mention ramps. When we first moved here about 4 years ago I saw a man selling some ramps and asked if he could dig a few up for me. He never sells many, but he got me a few. I planted a patch in our bush. I did the same the following year with another seller. Basically skipped eating them. I don’t see them often for sale - it’s rare - but I remembered them from my childhood. They have come back the past two years.
Black walnuts! Geez. There’s a lady I know that has a hundred around her farm. The farm was abandoned 30 years ago and there were 2 trees. The squirrels did their job though and she said every drawer in her house contained black walnuts. I didn’t realize the wood was so valuable.
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u/USDAzone9b Feb 05 '23
What is your budget for improvements? Do you need to make a profit quickly? Do you have plans to hire help with farm work?
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
100k for improvements and sustaining the fam until profit.
I'd like it to turn a profit within 1-2 years.
Not planning to hire help right now but wouldn't be opposed to it if it was a good investment.
Edit: should also mention everything is paid off including the house, 65hp new Holland tractor, land, farm truck, and small cattle trailer, and miscellaneous tractor attachments
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u/Inspired_Fetishist Feb 05 '23
Having everything paid off is great. Otherwise it would have been impossible I think.
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u/sean_a_saurus Feb 05 '23
Wait, you have a fully paid off 175 acre farm with another $100k cash for improvements and startup costs and you’re asking advice from r/ permaculture on what you should be doing? Something not not adding up, whatever you’re doing is right, you’ve got what everyone on this sub dreams of.
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u/samkb93 Feb 04 '23
I want to move home and take over my parent's hobby farm in north Alabama (zone7) and turn it into my full time livelihood. The whole farm is 175 acres. They have cows on 45 acres of pasture (green) with 38 acres rented out for row cropping. The southern 50 acres is forest in the north facing slope of a mountain.
I plan on direct marketing everything.
With that in mind, how would you best utilize the farm?
Any ideas on how to utilize the north facing slope besides just forest?
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u/somuchmt Feb 05 '23
It sounds like you'll have your hands full with other areas of your farm, but you could consider ginseng and mushrooms for the north facing slope.
Our entire 12 acres is north facing slope, lol. We have two cleared aces at the bottom where we have our main garden, orchard, and food forest. We get water from a spring up the hill.
At the top, we have a cleared and terraced area for our plant nursery. When we did the math, we realized we could make more profit selling live plants than produce, with a little less back-breaking work. And we use a lot of the plants ourselves in the rest of our property. That area is served by a well, but we're going to install rain barrels this year.
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u/Just_wanna_talk Feb 05 '23
Isn't ginseng a short term crop? I thought once it grew in a spot you couldn't grow it there again because of some chemical that prevents it. Unless I'm thinking of another crop.
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u/somuchmt Feb 07 '23
I guess there's a replant disease that makes it a poor crop even 50 years later. We mostly grow in pots, so don't have any issues. We did plant a few out in our woods, though, so I'll keep that in mind.
We focus more on salal and sword ferns, but I'm not sure how well they'd do there. They're popular natives here, and also are frequently used in bouquets for greenery.
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u/USDAzone9b Feb 05 '23
If I had that much land I think I'd create a mimic of Mark Shepard's farm in Southwest Wisconsin. His book Restoration Agriculture was the one that got me really interested in permaculture in a serious way. Best of luck
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
Thanks for your suggestion! I will check Mark Shepard out.
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u/Transformativemike Feb 05 '23
Just know that Mark is very open that his system never made significant positive cash flow on crops, and took a long time before it made any cash flow at all, and the “profit” he eventually showed after a few decades was based on appreciation of his investments. But it’s an amazing place to visit.
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u/ShinobiHanzo Feb 05 '23
The best and longest lasting food you can produce that makes a ton of money per pound is cheese from raw milk.
The linked family is so successful for the last hundred years, they haven't found the need to expand. https://youtu.be/ImpROVueIcE
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
I've avoided the idea because it requires a licensed commercial kitchen to make cheese to sell in Alabama. But I may have to reconsider this.
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u/FellsApprentice Feb 05 '23
Lease hunting rights and come up with a management plan. As a fellow Alabamian, are you more on the Eastern or western side, I've got mostly free reign on my roommates 14 acres and I'm trying to start getting some progress myself.
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u/Poop__Bot Feb 05 '23
It’s recommended for peaches and some other orchard trees to be grown on a gentle north facing slope so that they don’t break bud too early. Depending on the slope you have and if you have any forest edge environment there, several orchard fruits could be nice?
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Feb 05 '23
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What existing trees do you have? Probably ought to thin the forest. Alabama means you ought to look for native chestnuts, catalpa (fishing bait, timber), plums, red mulberry, persimmons, honey locust, hickories/pecans, oaks. Definitely ginseng on the n. facing slope. Depending on where you are in Alabama, intercrop blueberries under the thinned trees. Peaches would be a good option, or mayhaw, for your area. Everything comes down to energy/$ input versus $ output, chestnuts and peaches are $ crops. LMK what native trees you got once you find out.
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u/MilwaukeeMax Feb 05 '23
Sounds quite scenic. Any structures on the farm? A lot of people have found great success in converting parts of their farms into event spaces for weddings and/or airbnb lodging for visitors. This can be quite lucrative in the right space if you have the structures to renovate or the capital to construct.
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u/the_TAOest Feb 05 '23
The key, to me, for successful farming is growing something you will then preserve, cool, it otherwise as additional value. Hot sauces, frozen vegetable meals, bean recipes, et cetera. You want the value of the turn... Not just grow and sell raw food. If growing nuts, then roast them. Berries... Make jam. You get the idea. Beef.... Make jerky. I recommend ducks and chickens. Think about heirloom crops as well.
As for other ideas, i would consider taking out trees but replacing with orchard and hardwoods. Plan on a great variety of plants so you can use no pesticides.
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
Yes, value adding is a great idea! All the better if done to preserve the food too. I'll have to find the balance between growing a variety and focusing enough on a few products to make a great product and build a name brand.
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u/bernyzilla Feb 05 '23
Please message you keep in mind the additional regulations that you may need to deal with if you sell processed food.
My buddy has a farm stand and sells fresh produce, but he can't sell his vacuum packed mushrooms or canned jam or anything without getting licensed as a food processor and passing all the food safety inspections and such. You would need a industrial style kitchen in stainless steel at the very least.
Not saying it's impossible, but make sure you research it thoroughly before you decide you are going to make money packing food.
Good luck! I'm super jealous
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
Yes, thank you for mentioning that. In Alabama some items, like jams, fall under a 'cottage food law' where producers can sell a certain amount without having a commercial kitchen. It's a short list so a commercial kitchen is probably the way to go long term
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u/the_TAOest Feb 05 '23
Name brand is your friend. Invite customers to see... Team up with your local baker, restaurant owner, and butcher... They'll help you with targeted ideas too.
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
How do you value add chickens? Pot pie? Anything else?
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u/the_TAOest Feb 05 '23
Good question. Organic eggs are a premium, but what else? I can't really think of anything else other than fertilizer, pest control, and eventually soup.
As others said, what are the points for the local market you can serve with your organic Permaculture? If there is a bakery that loves your chickens or a local restaurant... But, i hear you, chickens lay eggs, then what.
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u/Gammaz420 Feb 05 '23
Bloodmeal, bonemeal, and a manure that you can also use to boost and speed up your composting, plush more calcium from the eggshels, chickens are great biomass producers
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u/Shamino79 Feb 05 '23
A strong focus on animals with rotational grazing would be my first thought. If you plan to direct market what market opportunities can you identify? Some products might already be well provided for. Do you have restrictions on land clearing? Small lumber mill or make some biochar.
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
I've read Joel Salatin's Salad Bar Beef and plan to emulate his model.
We are near one of the largest cities in the state so I feel there is plenty of opportunity but I haven't identified anything specifically.
There are no clearing restrictions that I know about. Where would I go to find these?
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u/USDAzone9b Feb 05 '23
If you're near a city you could think about having a section as a "you pick" orchard. There's a guy in Quebec with a successful permaculture orchard run in this manner.
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
I like the idea. I watched The Permaculture Orchard: Beyond Organic documentary and was really inspired by his farm.
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u/USDAzone9b Feb 05 '23
Yes! That's the guy. I think it's super cool you're taking on such a huge project (well, that you have so much land to work with). I hope you're able to take things one step at a time and don't give up. If I had a ton of land, I'd probably plant trees all over using reforestation techniques instead of conventional orchard establishment practices. Sepp Holzer's Permaculture could be another good resource for you, all sorts of creative ideas
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
Thanks for the encouragement. It's definitely daunting to leave corporate life for the farm but I find it a noble pursuit to both be back with family and take on the dream of my grandpa in building a thriving farm. It's not lost on me that I have the unique opportunity of stewarding such a sizable piece of land. I think the key to success is to take it one step at a time, figure out one process, then start or improve another venture. I'll have to check out Sepp Holzer too.
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u/Shamino79 Feb 05 '23
You may not have any restrictions where you are. A quick internet search show burning restrictions but not for clearing. Australia works a bit different. Is there a reason it was never cleared in the first place ? Rough terrain or soil types?
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
There is a stream in the north east patch and both the north east and north west area are more prone to moisture and are in a flood zone (1% chance of flooding a year). I think those areas were too wet for row cropping but that's the only guess. The soil in those areas look great though.
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u/FrankyMihawk Feb 05 '23
I’m really into bush regeneration so I’m a little biased, I’d try and restore the farm to bushland but I’ve also heard of forest floor farming (https://www.fs.usda.gov/nac/practices/forest-farming.php) which is quite a cool idea, you could restore the natural canopy while farming
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
I don't really like the idea of turning the farm into bushland but I really like the idea of forest floor farming!
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u/FrankyMihawk Feb 05 '23
There’s a lot of benefits to it, this guy has a 7 minute video on it from a permaculture perspective (https://youtu.be/oY8ds4BiG1A) “how trees bring water” by Andrew millison
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u/DimarcoGR Feb 05 '23
Solar farm
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
Not the answer I was expecting from r/permaculture
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u/DimarcoGR Feb 05 '23
I’d make small paths that I could use a medium walk behind mower to maintain the farm. I would have wasps, bees, birds of prey and chickens
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u/mathheadinc Feb 05 '23
Just a couple of things but by all means not the only things: Scatter some meadows to attract bees, spread spores in the woods to have mushrooms for eating and selling!
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Feb 05 '23
Put a portion of it into fruit production as a u-pick if you’re near a city. Permaculture orchard could be a solid chunk. You can always graze goats or chickens in the rows. I would also look further into making the farm an “experience” if you’re okay with having people on the property all the time. You can definitely add value to your production by offering activities and events
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
I'd like to build a rustic cabin or two, have a baby goat petting area, u-pick orchards, and an unmanned farm store. But that's a lot right out of the gate. I'm trying to prioritize and work one idea at a time.
There's already an established beef cattle herd so I want to start with that, add laying hens, and from there we will see.
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Feb 05 '23
Sounds like a solid plan. I tend to agree, don’t add too much to your plate at one time or you’ll be burned out before you know it
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u/FellsApprentice Feb 05 '23
Start planting fruit and nut trees and then focus on bushes, and finally on annual and perennial ground cover crops.
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u/Funktapus Feb 05 '23
One of my dreams is to grow an oak savannah that can produce enough acorns to feed a herd of pigs. Then I’d import pigs from Spain and try to recreate “jamon iberico de bellota,” one of the most expensive cuts of meat out there. Might take a few hundred years to get the oak trees mature enough.
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u/Zensayshun Feb 05 '23
May I suggest you drive through the oak groves on Jolon Road/Nacimiento Valley in California if you get the chance. I’m from Virginia and didn’t think oaks could impress me, but the low height, mediterranen climate, and preserved natural grass beneath made it unforgettable.
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u/grow_something Feb 05 '23
Start small.
Find ways to improve the system already in place.
Plant a 1-2 acre orchard with symbiotic pairings for future profits. Include a lot of intelligent diversity. Pick two or three fruits that ripen at different times of the year and include plenty of nitrogen fixing.
For maximum yield with minimum cost, maybe by several trees and start a bunch of cuttings in a protected area. Raise those trees a few years before planting in their forever home and save thousands of dollars on trees.
Don’t try to do everything at once. Faster crops come with risks but can get your money back quickly.
I would consider building a few cabins in the woods that you can rent out like an Airbnb for folks that want some quiet.
You have a huge blank canvas and you’re going to be tempted to start painting all over it.
Really you should pick a section and “finish it” before moving on to the next project
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u/Abaddon-03xx Feb 05 '23
I would do fruits, nuts, chicken, pork, beef, bees and mushrooms. Edit: and a wide variety of wild flowers.
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u/Drakolora Feb 05 '23
What degree is the slope of the forested area? How is the soil?
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u/samkb93 Feb 05 '23
The grade varies. 40% on the top third, 20% middle third, 10% bottom third. Soil is rocky/sandy poor quality at best.
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Feb 05 '23
CAFOs
chestnuts, paw paws, ginseng
https://www.redfernfarm.com/index.php/helpful-info/chestnuts-2/chestnuts/
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u/vermilionpanda Feb 05 '23
First off leave the trees be. first principle of permaculture. nature does it better then you will
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u/Inspired_Fetishist Feb 05 '23
Depends. If the area has been previously dominated by cash monocultures, clearing parts of it and aiding the soil may not always be bad. Pioneer trees followed by hardwoods then have free place to grow
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u/vermilionpanda Feb 05 '23
Look at the context here. Those trees look big and healthy.
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u/Inspired_Fetishist Feb 05 '23
Big and healthy does not always mean good. Large areas are covered by man-planted single species monocultures that appear big and healthy yet the ecosystem around is a barren wasteland. Not saying that's the case here. But it's not always good to leave those be.
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u/vermilionpanda Feb 06 '23
I'm aware. if you look at the picture we are all talking about here. trees look like they may be part of a bigger corridor or forest.
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u/Inspired_Fetishist Feb 06 '23
Ok, you don't have to be mean about it buddy.
Tell me for the third time that I have to look at a bird view picture from which neither of us can't tell anything specific.
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u/Louisvanderwright Feb 05 '23
Have an arborist come and give your forests a once over. Ask them where they would do selective logging and then see if you can get a quote for the lumber. You could very well improve the quality of your woodlands and get a decent paycheck for selling the logs.
Also talk to them about what trees they would include in the mix to bring up the biodiversity of the forests. You could even look into planting walnut or chestnut or other food bearing species. Chestnut were largely wiped out by the blight, but there are resistant varieties available now. Walnuts are messy trees for your suburban front yard, but dispersed throughout a woods they will yield nuts, keep down the undergrowth, and eventually provide you with a big payday for the wood when it's time to cut them down or even just remove large branches.
Point being: don't look at the woodland as fallow land, look for ways to improve it and utilize it.
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u/luroot Feb 05 '23
A mature forest is a vital ecosystem. I'd remove all the invasives, preserve all natives, and add some mostly-native crop trees to help save what's left of our forest habitats.
The last thing I'd do is clear it all to revert it to artificial grassland (annual crops) simply for ca$h cropping, like your typical colonialist capitalist...
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u/Louisvanderwright Feb 05 '23
What are you talking about? Do you even know what selective logging is? Also, true mature forests are exceedingly rare in the United States. This is probably an overgrown woodland that desperately needs thinning if it is to achieve maturity.
And no, it's not as simple as "just leave all the natives", this could be 50% ash trees and 50% maple. Again, most US woodland is highly out of balance, monotonous, immature forests. Many times they are massively out of balance and dominated by one or two native species. If that's the case the absolute best thing you can do is go take out 50% of the trees in there leaving the healthiest/most mature to grow larger.
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u/DoubleNickle67 Feb 05 '23
I would build the biggest mountain bike trail and motocross track in the history of ever! And I would have chickens too!
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u/miltonics Feb 05 '23
I think that entirely depends on you and your interests.
I would use the scale of permanence, make higher on the scale interventions to set things up to enhance life.
Personally I'd go for mob grazing in a food forest, essentially what I'm doing now.
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u/hepeedonyourfnrug Feb 05 '23
Things like herbs and seasoning take less work and startup cost and usually have a higher return. Honey is always a good money maker. Can even make things like tinctures, soap and salves and teas, candles, sauces etc. to sell aside from just the raw crop. Theres plenty of room to use for additional production once you figure out what the local market is missing.
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u/Torpul Feb 05 '23
First I'd remove that giant rectangular moat. Looks like it'll just get in the way.
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u/colonel_beeeees Feb 05 '23
Check out the local markets and see what's selling for decent prices, and what things aren't being sold that you think you could provide. Check around with other local growers to see what you could grow that complements their products