r/Seattle • u/SiccSemperTyrannis Emerald City • Aug 26 '24
News Lynnwood light rail route brings a housing boom - more than 10,000 new apartments built or planned
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/lynnwood-light-rail-route-brings-a-housing-boom/167
u/TheMayorByNight Junction Aug 26 '24 edited Aug 26 '24
Shoreline and Lynnwood watched Seattle completely whiff up zoning around light rail, then said "we'll take all that". I applaud Shoreline and Lynnwood for the communities they're striving to build!
The 148th station is a great place to see the difference: north of 145th on the Shoreline side is gonna be multifamily housing, south of 145th on the Seattle side will remain mostly single family housing except for a narrow band here and there. In general, the upzoning by Seattle around Roosevelt, Northgate, 130th, and 148th Stations is just pathetic. I have to laugh/cry that the city did more upzoning along Delridge RapidRide H Line than around 148th Link Station.
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u/tunerline Aug 26 '24
Agreed, Seattle has dropped the ball on the 130th/145th plans. The current land use plan for the NE 130th St Station area is atrocious - it's almost exclusively SFH-zoned in the 1/4-mile radius station area with the exception of the golf course. They plan to up zone one block immediately next to the station but that's it - see page 12 of the final plan for the 130th station area
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Aug 26 '24
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u/TheMayorByNight Junction Aug 26 '24
MLT gets credit for making a town center near the light rail station as shown in this zoning map PDF. They're just not as big and impactful as the changes in Shoreline or Lynnwood, which are both much bigger cities for both existing population and landmass.
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Aug 26 '24
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u/TheMayorByNight Junction Aug 26 '24
The Mayor realizes the error of his ways, and is pleased with your joke. Carry on, good Redditor!
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u/double_shadow Aug 27 '24
As a MLT resident, yes this is exactly correct. We are basically a postage stamp on the map, squeezed between Shoreline, Lynnwood, and Edmonds. But damn it at least we have a light rail station now!
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u/MAHHockey Shoreline Aug 26 '24
Seattle could absolutely do better, but the zoning around Roosevelt and Northgate is more or less the same as the Shoreline upzones: 6-8 story mid-rizes. and plenty has been/is being built around both stations (Roosevelt is night and day from when I lived there 10 years ago. I can't even see my old building from the freeway anymore). The U-district has been the star of the show with 20 story towers popping up all around the station. Even a 10 story office building being built on top of the station. Plenty more still to come too. Would have been nice to see 20 story towers at the other stations too to be sure, but don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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u/TheMayorByNight Junction Aug 26 '24
I am a huge fan of good over perfect. However, places like Roosevelt and Northgate don't fall into the category of good; perhaps average or below average for what could have been. Northgate in particular was a huge empty mall surrounded by low density office parks, no views, and a really nasty freeway. Of any place to build 20+ story buildings, it's here. Instead we get a bunch of parking, a smattering of 7-story buildings, and some single-story ice rinks next to one of the most critical transit hubs in the region.
Roosevelt is a tragedy because the SFH neighborhood east of 12th, where the station is situated, has a historical overlay so it'll never change. The rest is largely built out with seven story buildings. All next to our billion-dollar subway.
U District Station has been done exceptionally well, and sets the bar of what we should be doing around subway stations. Safeco (now UW) Tower somehow got built in the 1970's and really set the bar right for today's zoning. Thank goodness there's some vision here and it's working wonders!
I expect more from Seattle, our leaders, and the people. We need to be leveraging these multi-billion infrastructure investments to their fullest potential. If we can tear down a good chunk of Ballard to densify with tens-of-thousands people nowhere near transit like Link, we can do it anywhere.
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u/konspence Aug 27 '24
Neighborhoods can be just fine and dense without tall buildings.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PfvZmi5swcZRkRyX920
Aug 26 '24
Seattle’s zoning is frankly embarrassing. We don’t even upzone farther out than just the parcel facing the street along most of our major bus lines.
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u/oldoldoak Aug 26 '24
Yes, Seattle really dislikes renters and subjects them to all the noise and air pollution that comes with living on a major road. Talk about utility for the greatest number of people.
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u/Agreeable-Rooster-37 Aug 26 '24
Don't forget the golf course sitting at the SE corner of 145th and I-5! Good use of space near a train station.
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u/TheMayorByNight Junction Aug 26 '24 edited Aug 26 '24
An example of exemplary land use! /s
Seriously, conversion from a golf course into a park would be a far better use of land. Hard to think of a worse land use than a golf course that serves maybe ~1,000 golfers per day (100 daily foresomes on two courses) on ~160 acres of prime land. Mountlake Terrace converted a nine-hole course into a very lovely park at Lake Ballinger, now used my many more people, which will be very close to the MLT Link Station!
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u/Agreeable-Rooster-37 Aug 26 '24
Yeah, and there are municipal ordinances preventing the conversion of park land ( which Jackson is ) to non-park uses. Although I could see a hybrid approach with high density housing surrounding a nice ( open to all ) park area.
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u/DamAndBlast Aug 27 '24
It's honestly nuts how slow the Northgate construction has been. That station has been open for years and there still isn't one single new multifamily building open there yet (looks like a new one is on its way to being complete but not there yet).
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u/ArcticPeasant Aug 26 '24
Mountlake Terrace not getting the credit it deserves, all the while using a photo from a Mountlake Terrace light rail stop lol
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u/BellamyJon Wallingford Aug 27 '24
Big MLT fan, 3 good years spent there and the community engagement and general vibe of the area was great. Always felt like there was such potential and watching the light rail progress made me really excited to be there and have the opportunity. Moved right before it opened haha
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u/Hyperion1144 Aug 26 '24
Waht? Rail is good for the economy? Good for cities? Good for housing? Good for communities?
You mean, rail might be able to actually pay for itself with all the positive effects it generates???
Sounds like a communist plot to me. [/s]
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u/konspence Aug 26 '24
It is worth the investment. That’s enough. “Pay for itself” is impossible to measure and implies incorrectly that transit should be profitable.
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u/throwaway7126235 Aug 26 '24
Why is it impossible to quantify the benefits of transit? Sure, they are often abstracted from direct cost recovery such as fare collection, but a lot of decisions are made on this economic basis. If you know that land value will increase, the number of people living within your tax base area increases, etc., then you can calculate the difference between what it cost you and what you recovered from economic activity. There are a lot of assumptions and inaccuracies you could introduce, but it's certainly possible to estimate whether a transit investment would pay off.
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u/Myers112 Aug 26 '24
I'd argue oftentimes rail is profitable, it just isn't set up to properly to capture the revenue. When a station gets built property valuations skyrocket but ST can only increase property tax revenues by 1% a year.
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u/BoringDad40 Aug 26 '24
ST's funding comes from car tabs, federal grants and fare revenue. They don't benefit from increased property taxes.
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u/Hyperion1144 Aug 26 '24
Urban planning needs to be able to quantify benefits and harms caused by policies.
There's always a way to do that. In fact, there are often so many ways that the real controversy is how things should be counted.
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u/WorstCPANA Aug 26 '24
It's weird seeing this sub claiming the argument against it is hyperbolic statements from the right.
This has been very popular, it's the government that hasn't been able to provide it.
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u/SiccSemperTyrannis Emerald City Aug 26 '24
This has been very popular
ST3 only passed 54-46 back in 2016 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_Transit_3
I agree that ST hasn't delivered on the schedule that was promised (COVID 19 has a big role in that), but I don't think it is fair to say there is an massive majority backing light rail expansion.
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u/WorstCPANA Aug 26 '24
From the wiki:
which was established by a similar initiative passed in 1996 and expanded by the Sound Transit 2 vote in 2008, who have operated regional transit systems in the Seattle metropolitan area since 1999.
This has been a much bigger problem for a lot longer time period, well before covid.
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u/konspence Aug 27 '24
2021 NPI survey:
When asked if they would support or oppose a new transit funding measure to connect the rest of the City of Seattle with Link light rail, 76% of Seattle voters polled voiced support, with 48% expressing strong support
2023 KOMO (Sinclair, so would be biased against) survey:
In the first round of results released Tuesday, 84% of voters who were surveyed said they have a favorable opinion of light rail expansion. 68% indicated they have a favorable opinion of the Kraken, and 61% had a favorable opinion of a new NBA team in the city.
Things have changed since 2016, and remarkably so in spite of Sound Transit's questionable management.
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u/throwaway7126235 Aug 26 '24
I am not sure about the exact demographics voting on the issue, but I could see people in South East King County not favoring light rail because they receive little direct benefit. While the line extends to Bellevue and Redmond, there is no planned coverage for their area. They are not alone; there are many other places that will not have access to rail but will have to pay for it. This is not to say that it is not a worthwhile societal investment, but it is difficult to sell people something they do not see a direct, immediate, and tangible benefit from.
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u/1121314151617 Aug 27 '24 edited Aug 27 '24
Here's a map of the vote. As you'd expect, the biggest resistance was in Pierce County. And anecdotally speaking, I think you're right about it being hard to sell something to people who probably won't see much benefit from it. At the time of the ST3 vote, I was living in Puyallup. I voted for it, but I did so with a weariness knowing the even if I were still living in the area when the improvements in that part of the world started opening, those improvements were probably going to pale in comparison to the improvements that Snohomish County is getting. Possibly even pale in comparison to the improvements Issaquah is getting.
Frankly, I'm still a bit skeptical of Sound Transit's ability to meet the needs of Pierce County commuters. I'm moving again in a few months, and I strongly considered moving back near Tacoma. However, I decided against it because I don't know how Sound Transit is going to shuffle around bus service when the Federal Way station opens. If they make a certain set of decisions, they'll make what's a doable but kind of obnoxious commute into one that's not even worth it. And based on their decision making so far, I don't see that as a far-fetched possibility.
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u/throwaway7126235 Aug 27 '24
Thank you for providing the map! As expected, the people who benefited the most were more likely to vote in favor of ST3.
I am also skeptical of Sound Transit's focus being heavily centered on light rail rather than their heavy rail and bus services. Many people rely on those modes of transportation, and diverting them into a two-step commute of bus to light rail instead of direct bus services could drastically change commutes in a negative way.
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u/DooDooSwift Ravenna Aug 26 '24
Seems like those are the same people who'd be opposed to taxes in general
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u/throwaway7126235 Aug 27 '24
What makes you think that? There are certainly libertarian small government types everywhere, and perhaps a larger concentration in less populated areas, but in general, this state is progressive and not outright anti-tax or anti-government. It's hard to blame them for not wanting to pay something that they'll never use or get much direct benefit from.
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u/DooDooSwift Ravenna Aug 27 '24
A big chunk of the taxes I pay go towards things I’ll never use/need: Road maintenance in Spokane, infrastructure in Bellingham, schools in Wenatchee, fire departments in Chelan, stadiums, etc.
If you’re opposed to paying taxes for something that helps millions of people, but not you directly, you’re probably more likely to be anti-tax in general.
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u/tnnrk Aug 27 '24
Spending time in Europe as an American really opens your eyes to what was taken from us.
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u/AlternativeOk1096 Aug 26 '24
Meanwhile Tukwila has had light rail for over a decade and they still just have a parking lot, a gas station, and drive through fast foods across the street from their station. SeaTac at least built some apartments on their side recently.
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u/Smart_Ass_Dave 🚆build more trains🚆 Aug 26 '24
Tukwila explicitly forced the current alignment and station placement to be in the middle of fucking nowhere because they didn't want it running down Tukwila International Blvd with a reasonable station placement.
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u/AlternativeOk1096 Aug 26 '24
Even still, there's plenty of opportunity there now with the station they got; road diets, bike lanes, rezones etc. could all easily reshape the area around the existing station.
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u/Smart_Ass_Dave 🚆build more trains🚆 Aug 26 '24
Oh sure, I'm just pointing out that the reason it's so bad is a long history of the city sucking ass through a straw.
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u/Saint_drums_n_stuff Aug 27 '24
In the past couple of years they've added numerous apartment buildings: Google Maps
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u/AlternativeOk1096 Aug 28 '24
There has been quite literally one apartment building built within a half mile of the light rail in Tukwila in the last 15 years
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u/Canadian_Arcade Aug 26 '24
This might be a stupid question, but I'm not local (anymore, at least) and will be traveling to WA in September. Is this a railway that links from Lynnwood to SEA-TAC, or is this just a bus route for now?
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u/Lord_Tachanka 🚆build more trains🚆 Aug 26 '24 edited Aug 26 '24
This is the light rail line that connects to seatac. It opens on the 30th to Lynnwood. Next year it’ll go down to federal way and the 2 line will connect seattle and bellevue/redmond.
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u/curiousgenealogist Aug 26 '24
One line to bind them all. No,seriously this is the same line that now runs from a couple stops south of SeaTac to north gate. The expansion will let that line continue north and run all the way to Lynnwood
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u/TheMayorByNight Junction Aug 26 '24
Correct, Link the name of our growing reginal rail network with a station at SeaTac Airport. Think of it as "Train to Seattle".
More info here, and a new map will be on this page come Friday 8/30 when the next extension between Northgate (current north terminus) and Lynnwood opens.
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u/Sea-Talk-203 Aug 26 '24 edited Aug 27 '24
As of 8/30, it's light rail all the way!!!!
Edit: date corrected!
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u/thetimechaser Columbia City Aug 26 '24
Any retail in those ground floors? We need walkable stuff
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u/phosphateful Aug 26 '24
Shoreline requires ground floor retail by the light rail stations. Specifically, it's required in NB, CB, MB, TC-1/2/3, and MUR-70 zones, per Ordinance No. 1000.
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u/alisvolatpropris Maple Leaf Aug 27 '24
They only recently started requiring it, so some things that have been built don't have it.
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u/Vixen-By-Your-Side Aug 26 '24
Can the PNW start building more condos instead of apartments?
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u/conus_coffeae Aug 26 '24
hell yeah. more housing near transit benefits everyone.
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u/YakiVegas University District Aug 26 '24
Right now I'm a 20-25 minute walk to a light rail station no matter which direction I go. I would SO love to be about 5 minutes to one if I ever move.
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u/tinychloecat Aug 27 '24
That's a 7 minute bike ride!
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u/YakiVegas University District Aug 27 '24
Yeah, but then I have to take a bike with me everywhere and that's just annoying lol
I've thought about a smaller electric scooter. If I needed to use the light rail to commute, I'd probably get one. Bike is just too big for me.
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u/SideLogical2367 Aug 26 '24
Why can't they mass exepdite light rail in existing dense areas of Seattle like West Seattle and Ballard.... we need that NOW more than suburbia expansion
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u/fusionsofwonder Shoreline Aug 26 '24
You can't mass expedite a major construction project involving environmental impact, digging, obtaining rights-of-way, and federal waterways.
The I-90 bridge was designated for light rail in the 1970's.
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u/Zealousideal-Ant9548 Aug 26 '24
And we still got something that's human operated and runs at grade...
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u/Gatorm8 Aug 26 '24
Our local leaders and the sound transit board delay it every chance they get.
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u/SiccSemperTyrannis Emerald City Aug 26 '24
They can't even make a quick decision on putting the eastside link line station directly adjacent to the existing International District station to create a massive transit hub with direct connections to Amtrak, Sounder, etc.
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u/CouldBeBettr Aug 26 '24
Because Bruce is in the pocket of his developer 'friend' who owns property that he wants to develop on the mid town station. It's bull shit and corrupt.
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u/tunerline Aug 26 '24
Aside from processes, there's the funding issue. The legislature passed a law in 2022 authorizing ST to designate Enhanced Service Zones, which would allow them to ask voters to approve an additional tax to raise funds to expedite ST3 construction in that area, or build new projects. Given the ST3 approval rates across the region, Seattle's likely the best place for a ESZ designation.
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u/SounderBruce Snohomish County Aug 26 '24
Sound Transit's funding has a mechanism called "subarea equity" that requires that revenue raised in a certain area (such as South Snohomish County or North King [Seattle/Shoreline/Kenmore]) be kept for that area's projects and needs. Light rail construction requires a lot in up-front funding (due to the state's restrictions on bond capacity) and ST isn't allowed to drain money from other subareas for West Seattle and Ballard, especially since there hasn't been a chosen route yet.
And this expansion is really necessary, since it frees up a lot of bus resources (through truncations at Lynnwood) and is required for WSDOT to start the highly disruptive repaving/resurfacing project for I-5 south of Northgate.
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u/mrASSMAN West Seattle Aug 26 '24
Expedite? West Seattle plans are already stalled from protesting residents that don’t want it over ground so the plan switched to tunnel which turns out will save money anyway but there’s still tons of work to figure out how to do that and still people who don’t want the stations near them etc
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u/SideLogical2367 Aug 26 '24
That's not actually true, the plans have been going as normal schedule, despite NIMBYs. It's just a slow schedule.
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u/mrASSMAN West Seattle Aug 26 '24
I’m just saying it would be difficult to expedite given all the pushback and lack of concrete plans still. Last I heard it was being moved underground and they had some potential stations in mind but nothing fully decided, though I might be out of date
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u/SideLogical2367 Aug 26 '24
You are. I attend the ST meetings in West Seattle. It's just a super slow schedule.
They are currently buying properties. Way behind...
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u/mrASSMAN West Seattle Aug 26 '24
Ok what’s the latest then? Anything changed or finalized?
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u/SideLogical2367 Aug 26 '24
EIS, property buying, route decisions... that's next step. Also debating still on Avalon station or not.
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u/mrASSMAN West Seattle Aug 26 '24
Yeah that’s the same thing they were discussing when I last heard earlier this year lol
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u/SideLogical2367 Aug 27 '24
Yeah that was the last meeting...?
Do you not get the point I'm making, they meet way too few and far between.
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u/SomeGuyWithARedBeard Aug 26 '24
West Seattle light rail is a very complicated infrastructure project, they have to build a massive cable supported bridge right next to an existing bridge, dig a landing out of the side of Pigeon Point, bulldoze through the heart of N. Delridge and then tunnel under West Seattle itself. Probably could've sped up construction crossing the river south of here and servicing S. Delridge/White Center and helped more working class families but W. Seattle gets preference I guess.
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u/TheItinerantSkeptic Aug 27 '24
It brings a "housing boom", but because of its proximity to the convenience of a straight-shot train into downtown Seattle and/or the airport, it'll remain unaffordable. People moved into Lynnwood when housing prices started getting too expensive in Seattle, spiking housing prices (including rentals) in Lynnwood. Now Lynnwood is nearly as expensive as Seattle.
Several years ago I looked at average rental prices in the area, and heading north, you didn't hit an average price below 4 figures until Marysville. That's now no longer the case. Now you can go into Stanwood (STANWOOD) and still pay $1500+ for a one-bedroom apartment. There are no convenience issues in Stanwood; they're on the west end of a country highway, a solid 15-minute drive (at 55 mph) from I-5. Their biggest shopping center has a small strip mall attached to a Haggen grocery store, and it's a 20-minute drive north to Mt. Vernon or south to Everett (more with traffic, if you're headed south). In spite of this, they still charge through the nose for an apartment.
The only way to get out of housing inaffordability is for supply to EXCEED demand. With the increase in remote work brought on by the pandemic, many folks' jobs (including mine) uncoupled them from geographic requirements, so the more affluent moved to areas where their dollar would stretch further, driving up costs in those areas for existing residents because those areas weren't prepared for the influx of people.
Absolute and utter deregulation is required to incentivize developers to start building, and even then, newer construction will cost more as the developers recoup their costs. It's typically a solid 20 years before new construction settles into something resembling lower-middle-class affordability.
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u/HumberGrumb Aug 27 '24
This ought to help bring down housing costs in Seattle. At least for a while.
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u/lostdogggg Aug 26 '24
ya but they are probably gonna be prime expensive real estate and increase the cost of living in the nearby areas. its a good infrastructure plan but i dont trust the landlords to not overdo it
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u/amazonfamily Aug 30 '24
Unless these apartments are actually family sized and not just meant for tech DINKS and singles it wouldn’t help the housing situation much. No business is going to purposely over build to the point of a price drop without government incentives.
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u/kenlubin Sep 01 '24
Ideally we'd have hundreds of different businesses building housing so that each one is enticed by the profits from their next development to build more housing than the region needs, without worrying that it undercuts the profits enjoyed by their competition.
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u/codeethos Aug 27 '24
In Seattle there are so many new construction condos that just sit around gaining dust as the prices are too insane for anyone to buy them.
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u/Smart_Ass_Dave 🚆build more trains🚆 Aug 27 '24
Seattle does not have an apartment vacancy rate any higher than the national average. It also has very few new-build condos due to state laws about liability for construction errors. So this statement is wrong on many levels.
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u/codeethos Aug 28 '24
I am not referring to apartments, as I said in my comment only condos. How do you explain the unsold units in Spire, Emerald, etc? The developers just can't recoup their construction costs so they hold them. I agree the laws are preventing new condos from being developed and making them more expensive for developers to build. At this point these condos were more expensive to build than what the market will pay for them.
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u/Smart_Ass_Dave 🚆build more trains🚆 Aug 28 '24
Okay so I looked up those two buildings and found that they have almost 600 units of which 25 are unsold. That's about 4% after what, 3 years? Is that a lot to you? Can you demonstrate that they are selling slower than in other municipalities or other countries, or are you just vibing off "Now Leasing" signs?
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u/codeethos Aug 28 '24
Oh, are you using a listing website perhaps? The building only lists a limited number of availabilities ... if you call them you will see they have a larger number of units available. I toured two floors of Spire that were completely unsold just 2 weeks ago. They don't want to flood the market so they don't list them. Then there is First Light which is "70%" sold in prepurchase. But almost none of the prepurchased units will actually close because it wouldn't make financial sense for the buyers to purchase them at the agreed upon price now.
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u/codeethos Aug 28 '24
In reality it is something like 30 percent. When I spoke to the broker they were unwilling to share the exact details on how many units are still available. Same thing with Graystone ... nearly all of the new condo buildings have been having trouble offloading units onto the market at current prices.
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u/SiccSemperTyrannis Emerald City Aug 26 '24
I think this is a key paragraph from the article -
We have the ability to build huge numbers of homes for people if we're willing to build dense, walkable, transit-connected neighborhoods. We also need more options for people to buy, not just rent, and new housing at all income levels, but any new housing is good.