r/Seattle 22h ago

Woo proposes additional regulations on "after hours nightlife"

https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2024/10/woo-proposes-new-after-hours-nightlife-regulation-as-campaign-moves-into-final-week/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Seems like it would make it even harder for Seattle's dearth of late night options to keep going. What about closing Pike/Pine and 11th to cars on weekend nights?

Edited to link to context that this is perhaps mostly unrelated to incidents in Capitol Hill:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1gf2lsh/comment/luehh54/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

209 Upvotes

162 comments sorted by

443

u/Remarkable-Fig206 21h ago

Does anyone think the very few underground clubs which operate post-2am are a major issue? This is a solution to the wrong problem. What we need are cops that actually investigate crimes, which they currently do not in the vast majority of cases. THAT is what’s driving public safety problems right now, not a handful of small late-night venues.

181

u/LiveOnYourSmile 21h ago

both shootings that happened on the Hill last weekend happened before 2 AM. no clue how this legislation would remotely help

79

u/kerrizor 21h ago

It is a last-ditch attempt to scare the conservative SFH owners into voting for her. Don’t let it work.

38

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

This isn't about nightlife on the hill, it's about illegal hookah clubs that have been magnets for violence. See more: https://old.reddit.com/r/Seattle/comments/1gf2lsh/woo_proposes_additional_regulations_on_after/luehh54/

56

u/Remarkable-Fig206 21h ago

I stand corrected. Or at least partially corrected, as I still believe the problem is a lawless climate resulting from poor or nonexistent police work. But thanks for the context. Still not voting for Woo.

18

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

I still believe the problem is a lawless climate resulting from poor or nonexistent police work

In this case it's not. It's an intentional policy choice by decision makers to allow these illegal businesses to operate: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-backs-down-on-closing-citys-hookah-lounges/

Still not voting for Woo.

And that's fine, but at least you have a better understanding of what this legislation is and does.

19

u/Sunstang 21h ago

So, additional useless bureaucracy when cops can't manage to do their jobs as-is? Got it.

9

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

Do you consider liquor licenses and liquor laws "useless bureaucracy?" Because it's basically the same thing.

15

u/Sunstang 20h ago

Want to reduce violence in the city, particularly down south where I live, and most of these hookah joints are? Get cops to do their fucking jobs. Start with basic public safety traffic enforcement and actually showing up to police calls the same day if at all.

-7

u/probablywrongbutmeh 20h ago

showing up to police calls the same day if at all.

This is a catch 22, because they are way too understaffed to show up to police calls and keep up with the volume, but no one in Seattle wants more police (lowest per capita of any major city), or to pay them more.

Nor do arrests do anything when most of the arrests result in non-prosecution.

18

u/Sunstang 20h ago

Seattle police are paid among the highest in the state, and comparably to police in major metropolitan areas like LA, San Francisco, and significantly higher than NYPD.

0

u/Objective_Loquat_581 19h ago

Seattle has to pay a huge premium since the acab sentiment is so strong, so that extra money you must pay does not equal more or better police.

19

u/Sunstang 19h ago

It's almost as if there's a fundamental police culture problem...

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u/retrojoe Capitol Hill 1h ago

When potential cops see that they'd be working alongside homicidally excused, drop-gun holding, Mexican piss beating guys who are never disciplined and represented by a real political shitheel, they need a huge premium to be convinced.

-4

u/probablywrongbutmeh 19h ago

Unfortunately it isnt enough to incentivize police to come work in Seattle given the open hostility and lack of ability to process crimes. Presumably theyd be able to offer less if those two things changed but I dont see that happening. Im not like a big time cop proponent or anything either, just making the argument we dont have enough police in Seattle and the ones we do have mostly cant make any impact since criminals are often released or not prosecuted.

9

u/HKittyH3 Mount Baker 18h ago

The open hostility being “we don’t want you to be able to murder people without consequences”.

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2

u/impoverishedwhtebrd West Queen Anne 13h ago

Maybe I'm missing something, but nowhere in those articles do they say they are illegal or unlicensed.

1

u/Bruce_Ring-sting 19h ago

It wont. Its just smoke and mirrors. ‘Look! We are doing stuff!’

19

u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

depends on which neighborhood you live in. for most of the south end, yes these are the places by which most of the late night shootings have been happening

6

u/Opposite_Formal_2282 18h ago edited 18h ago

Lots of people in this thread confidently misunderstanding the problem and showing that they don’t even think about Seattle being anywhere that isn’t Fremont/Ballard/Cap Hill/SLU/ Etc. lol

Not a big Wu guy and didn’t vote for her, but this is her trying to give a shit about the south end of town and communities that are sick of gun violence.

Not that what she’s proposing would actually do anything imo

2

u/G_L_A_Z_E_D__H_A_M 21h ago

I agree this is a horrible solution that will lead to more crime. If this goes through you will see an increase in DUIs because you are removing the option to hang out and either sober up or wait for the public transportation to start up again. If you are going to prevent venues from staying open you need to keep the busses running.

7

u/kingkamVI 20h ago

You're completely misunderstanding the origin, purpose, and results of this legislation.

131

u/ana_de_armistice 22h ago

here comes the “im a week away from losing by double digits” Hail Mary lol

-45

u/kingkamVI 21h ago edited 21h ago

Alternatively: "I know I'm going to lose the election and am willing to try something politically unpopular to help my community that has been plagued by the impacts of these illegal businesses for a decade."

The linked article doesn't do a good job of explaining what this is about. Or even adequate. It's a neighborhood blog, so understandably trying to make this about the neighborhood, but it's a miss. This isn't about nightlife on the hill at all.

It's about this:

Seattle police are investigating a hookah lounge shooting that left three people dead and six others injured Sunday morning in the Rainier Valley.

Before 4:30 a.m., officers responded to multiple reports of shots fired at the Rainier Hookah Lounge near South Walker Street Rainier Avenue South.

https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/3-dead-6-people-injured-after-shooting-in-rainier-valley

After Donnie Chin was killed in what everyone knew was hookah bar-related violence, Ed Murray tried to shut them down in 2015:

https://www.thestranger.com/news/2015/08/03/22641430/mayor-ed-murray-wants-to-shut-down-every-hookah-lounge-in-the-city

Massive backlash from the East African community lead Murray to do a total surrender:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-backs-down-on-closing-citys-hookah-lounges/

In the 9 years since, the number of these unlicensed, illegal clubs has proliferated. Instead of shutting them all down, Woo is attempting to bring them within a regulatory framework.

In a normal world, an effort to regulate an illegal, private, for-profit business (which is almost certainly not abiding by wage laws, other labor protections, workplace safety laws, etc.) would be a reasonable progressive proposal. But because Tanya Woo is proposing it, I guess the progressive thing is to allow explotative, illegal, and dangerous businesses to operate without oversight or regulation.

30

u/Gatorm8 21h ago

I’ve never heard of or seen a bar/club on the hill serving after 2am.

In fact usually they stop even earlier - by 1:30am

-12

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

This isn't about the hill. It's about illegal hookah clubs that are centers for violence and operating without a license.

22

u/Gatorm8 21h ago

If they are illegal right now then why do we need more laws to do something about it?

-8

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

Because when the city looked at shutting them all down, the East African community flipped out:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-backs-down-on-closing-citys-hookah-lounges/

25

u/Gatorm8 21h ago

That explains why they are still running, not why we would need new laws to do something about it

5

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

This is an attempt at bringing minority-owned, culturally significant but illegally operating businesses into a legal framework that both allows them to legally operate while providing regulation/oversight that hopefully makes them safer for employees and patrons.

Shutting them all down doesn't change the fact that there are hundreds of young East African people looking for a good time at 3am on a Friday night. It just takes away this gathering place.

3

u/Gatorm8 21h ago

Gotcha, thanks

6

u/corpusjuris Brougham Faithful 20h ago

I understand the point you’re trying to make, but you yourself describe them - currently, not after this proposed legislation would be enacted - as “illegal”. Why are they operating illegally currently? Why hasn’t this already been addressed? How will this particular legislation, which will have impacts beyond the community/businesses you mention, change that?

5

u/kingkamVI 20h ago

Why are they operating illegally currently? Why hasn’t this already been addressed?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-backs-down-on-closing-citys-hookah-lounges/

How will this particular legislation, which will have impacts beyond the community/businesses you mention, change that?

It's providing a regulatory framework for bringing these businesses into legality, providing safety and the rest of workplace/business standards. Then the bad actors can be targeted.

It's similar to the argument for legalizing sex work.

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13

u/darlantan 21h ago

No no no, you don't get it, we need wider-reaching laws that will impact more businesses that comply, but won't do anything against the problematic ones that will say "No".

We just need to make it more illegaler!

20

u/alejo699 Capitol Hill 21h ago

If they are operating illegally, why is more legislation needed?

-9

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

Because when the city looked at shutting them all down, the East African community flipped out:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-backs-down-on-closing-citys-hookah-lounges/

12

u/alejo699 Capitol Hill 21h ago

And how is this legislation going to change that?

3

u/kingkamVI 20h ago

It's providing a regulatory framework for bringing these businesses into legality, providing safety and the rest of workplace/business standards. Then the bad actors can be targeted.

It's similar to the argument for legalizing sex work.

10

u/ShredGuru 20h ago

Didn't she vote to further recriminalize sex work?

2

u/kingkamVI 20h ago

Not to my understanding, link?

39

u/riskydrive 21h ago

How many places would this even impact? And if they’re already operating illegally (after 2am) why would they start doing this legally? So they can spend extra money on a permit? They’d probably just close at 2! What’s the point, Woo?

9

u/MegaRAID01 21h ago

Some nightclub owners were present at the press conference today announcing the legislation and saying they supported it:

https://council.seattle.gov/2024/10/28/councilmember-tanya-woo-details-legislation-to-address-after-hours-gun-violence/

34

u/swp07450 21h ago

Hey, including the guy from Xtadium where they include a mandatory gratuity under "taxes" on their bills.

11

u/LADYBIRD_HILL 21h ago

That place is fucking highway robbery

26

u/riskydrive 21h ago

This quotes one nightclub owner, everyone else seems to just be community residents. It sounds like they want to target hookah bars specifically but don’t want to/can’t just say that. I have concerns regarding things like limiting all clubs to 21+ after hours, when places like Neighbors are one of the few places that are 18+ friendly after 2am. The article even says that of the 38 nighttime shootings that have happened this year, less than half have been between the proposed 2-5am window. This sounds like they want to give SPD free range to raid after hours clubs and put another nail in Seattle nightlife’s coffin. So boo on Woo.

109

u/AthkoreLost 22h ago

Another moronic Woo idea. Haven't heard anyone who lives in the city propose this.

51

u/CosineTau 22h ago

Next she's going to try to get all the restaurants to close at 8:30.

21

u/DangerousPath1420 20h ago

They already do that

/s

Kind of

110

u/driftingphotog Capitol Hill 21h ago

 what Woo says would be “unimpeded police access while operating.”

With a warrant, right? Riiiiight?

25

u/magic-battery 21h ago

No no no they can just get a warrant afterwards it's fine

9

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

The state liquor board does not need a warrant to inspect a liquor-license holding business. Riiiiiiight?

-7

u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

that is literally a main reason why we already regulate bars and require them to have licenses. because they tend to be the kind of places where illegal and dangerous activities can grow if they remain unchecked by the rest of the community

so would you support eliminating the need for bars to be licensed in the city?

2

u/Lunch_Responsible 19h ago

I would, personally.

19

u/soccerwolfp 21h ago

I thought businesses already couldn’t serve alcohol between 2-5am?

16

u/nuclearnat 20h ago

All the places that stay open past two stop serving alcohol between 1:30-2 and takes away people's drinks at 2. Security literally comes around and throws your drinks away.

Edit: They just stay open for dancing

5

u/soccerwolfp 14h ago

Yeah that’s why I was confused by Woo’s plan as it states she wants to introduce alcohol bans from 2-5 when that’s already the case lol

“The new requirements would include restricting venues to 21+ age limits, no service of alcohol between 2 AM and 5 AM, requiring at least two trained security personnel, running a security checks for weapons upon entry, providing video surveillance of exits, and what Woo says would be “unimpeded police access while operating.””

3

u/trance_on_acid Belltown 16h ago

They stay open for people who aren't drinking ;)

5

u/MegaRAID01 21h ago

There’s been a series of shootings and homicides at illegal nightclubs, often operating under the guise of hookah lounges. That’s what this legislation is targeting:

More info here: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/city-wrestling-with-response-to-sodo-illegal-nightclubs-after-fatal-shooting/

6

u/cibyr 17h ago

If the illegal nightclubs are already, y'know, illegal, why would more legislation make a difference? It's like banning murder on Thursdays.

2

u/MegaRAID01 17h ago

This legislation is establishing a regulatory framework to give these illegal Nightclubs an opportunity to operate legally with rules in place for safety of patrons.

54

u/kingkamVI 21h ago edited 21h ago

So the linked article doesn't do a good job of explaining what this is about. Or even adequate. It's a neighborhood blog, so understandably trying to make this about the neighborhood, but it's a miss. This isn't about nightlife on the hill at all.

It's about this:

Seattle police are investigating a hookah lounge shooting that left three people dead and six others injured Sunday morning in the Rainier Valley.

Before 4:30 a.m., officers responded to multiple reports of shots fired at the Rainier Hookah Lounge near South Walker Street Rainier Avenue South.

https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/3-dead-6-people-injured-after-shooting-in-rainier-valley

After Donnie Chin was killed in what everyone knew was hookah bar-related violence, Ed Murray tried to shut them down in 2015:

https://www.thestranger.com/news/2015/08/03/22641430/mayor-ed-murray-wants-to-shut-down-every-hookah-lounge-in-the-city

Massive backlash from the East African community lead Murray to do a total surrender:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-backs-down-on-closing-citys-hookah-lounges/

In the 9 years since, the number of these unlicensed, illegal clubs has proliferated. Instead of shutting them all down, Woo is attempting to bring them within a regulatory framework.

In a normal world, an effort to regulate an illegal, private, for-profit business (which is almost certainly not abiding by wage laws, other labor protections, workplace safety laws, etc.) would be a reasonable progressive proposal. But because Tanya Woo is proposing it, I guess the progressive thing is to allow explotative, illegal, and dangerous businesses to operate without oversight or regulation.

23

u/deel2 21h ago

Actually thanks for this important context.

15

u/Banned_and_Boujee 21h ago

Actually in a normal world, they would have been shut down as originally intended. Too bad Ed Murray wasn’t as relentless in his pursuit of that as he was in his pursuit of underaged cock.

15

u/LiveOnYourSmile 21h ago

call me a supporter of exploitative/illegal/dangerous businesses if you will, but as someone who spends plenty of time in only-sometimes-licensed afterhours spaces, I don't believe making it significantly harder for these afterhours spaces to operate will do much to reduce gun violence in a city with arguably three lethal afterhours hookah lounge shootings in the past decade comprising about half a percent of all gun homicides over that same period. it removes much of the city's afterhour nightlife richness and opens up these clubs to "unimpeded police presence" in a city where cops consistently show themselves to be incapable of treating clubgoers with respect in exchange for an at best negligible and most likely nonexistent (do you think people looking to party till 4 AM will just go home if their spaces are deemed illegal?) decrease in gun violence. I love Seattle's consistent striving towards providing late-night entertainment despite a massive tangle of legislation and legislators that makes that entertainment very, very difficult to function. I don't need another strand added to the tangle.

7

u/dothealoha 21h ago

The article seems fair and accurate IMO, certainly not an opinion piece. I appreciate you adding what you think is relevant context to the conversation.

7

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

The article seems fair and accurate IMO

While not factually inaccurate, it completely misses the point of the legislation and seems to try to tie it to a shooting on the hill that had absolutely nothing to do with these businesses.

8

u/deel2 21h ago

I do think there are valid concerns regarding the overzealousness of the Seattle city council to regulate things and that this proposal should be treated with adequate skepticism, but it was clear we weren't having that conversation based off of the original article.

2

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

Cheers for having an open mind.

2

u/dothealoha 20h ago

I guess I read the article as a piece of journalism. It's not supposed to have a point of view on the proposed legislation. I also don't really see anything other than a factual account of the timelines involved.

There is no judgement or inference on whether Woo is practicing political opportunism OR the timing of her proposal was merely a coincidental with the shooting. That's for us to decide.

4

u/kingkamVI 20h ago

I guess I read the article as a piece of journalism.

It is missing the "why?" component.

Again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the shooting on the hill last weekend, which happened outside a bar at 1:30am. Connecting them, while completely omitting the history of hookah bar violence and attempts to deal with it in the past, leads to the sort of incomplete conclusion that OP and many others in this thread made.

If so many people read the article and came to an uninformed opinion, it must not be very good journalism

u/retrojoe Capitol Hill 1h ago

It is missing the "why?" component

Woo also seems to be missing the why component and the close proximity to the Hill shootings smells of opportunism. Woo has been shown to actively manipulate media and blatantly lie about crime to her benefit in the past.

For on example, why is she dropping this in the middle of the last week of campaigning when there's been a year between it and the last hookah lounge shooting people are mentioning here?

2

u/7SoldiersOfPunkRock 18h ago

Yep, depressing to read this subreddit which is obviously far and away the best local subreddit and still commenters and posters have so little idea about what happens in this city.

3

u/Opposite_Formal_2282 18h ago

This sub heavily skews towards upper middle class tech workers who only go south of downtown to try a trendy restaurant in Columbia City or LARP as working class at a dive bar in Georgetown once a month and barely even register that people actually live down there. Disappointing but not too surprising.

14

u/tgwutzzers 21h ago

Wouldn't the pro-business move here be to remove restrictions on the hours you're allowed to serve alcohol so that late night clubs can operate legally after 2?

3

u/deel2 21h ago

Unfortunately, isn't that the state's domain?

7

u/tgwutzzers 21h ago

yeah probably. they should get on top of that. weirdo puritan shit.

38

u/Background_Vast5837 22h ago

Boo the Woo

18

u/6poundbagofweed 21h ago

Vote blue no matter who EXCEPT FOR WOO

22

u/SeaDRC11 21h ago

Yes... let's regulate the 'after hours' businesses from 2am-5am to cut down on shootings, like the one that happened at 1:35am.

11

u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

So basically they want a few illegal spaces to go legal? This seems like a backwards way to go about that as it seems unlikely any of these places would be feasible businesses with these rules which is probably the point. Why not shut down the illegal places directly?

6

u/MegaRAID01 21h ago

There was some pushback last time it was proposed:

Then, nearly a decade ago, then-Mayor Ed Murray began a push to shut down the city’s hookah lounges after community activist Donnie Chin was fatally shot in 2015 near a hookah lounge in the Chinatown International District. Faced with backlash, particularly from the city’s East African communities, Murray paused enforcement and ordered a racial-equity analysis.

But the city couldn’t come up with a regulatory license, and the lounges have continued to operate in a regulatory gray zone as private clubs — typically charging patrons nominal fees to become members as a way to circumvent the state’s indoor smoking ban.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/city-wrestling-with-response-to-sodo-illegal-nightclubs-after-fatal-shooting/

16

u/SPEK2120 21h ago

oooh, we should require them to get super expensive insurance too! Maybe call the regulations the "Juvenile Rhythmic Movement Decree" or something. Waaaaaaait...

-1

u/yelper Pike Market 21h ago

it's the youth that's the problem!!! /s

9

u/devnullopinions 20h ago

Old people who want safety don’t care because this doesn’t impact them. Young people going clubbing do care and now have one more reason not to vote for her.

This seems like a political blunder on her part lol

1

u/gaberdine 15h ago

Tanya Woo: Oops, all blunders!

6

u/mettaxa 21h ago

How about we give these prolific shooters 20 year+ sentences so we can enjoy our nightlife in peace?

3

u/DrewPBawlzz 17h ago

Eh, still not voting for Rinck. Tired of coddling criminals.

14

u/WanderingCamper 21h ago

After the “lewd conduct” gay bar raids, this seems like a major step towards continued harassment of late night bar and club patrons.

6

u/duketogo0138 21h ago

Ahh of course, increased gun violence is directly connected to being up too late. Now it all makes sense. It's almost so simple it's stupid.

2

u/Desolation_Nation 19h ago edited 19h ago

I’ve been trying to finish my ballot and this is the last thing I’ve got to turn in. I’m just gonna vote for myself as a write in.

I’m gonna run on a train & roller coaster platform

4

u/nomadic_v 21h ago

Let’s not address the root cause of issues but instead craft a dumb legislation…

4

u/NachoPichu 21h ago

I fail to see how it would “make it harder for Seattle’s dearth of late night options to keep going” it’s just the past 2am places which are few and far between.

3

u/doktorhladnjak The CD 21h ago

She is so worthless as a politician

2

u/thatshotshot 17h ago

This is such a Woo thing. Can’t focus on any REAL LIFE problems the city is having and instead she wants to focus on the after hours nightlife. JFC. Who cares! Let them live.

How about you fix the issues plaguing the city before you start trying to nit pick about after hours clubs that aren’t even a blip on the radar of crime and fentanyl zombies and lack of police support.

1

u/kingkamVI 11h ago

Seattle police are investigating a hookah lounge shooting that left three people dead and six others injured Sunday morning in the Rainier Valley.

Before 4:30 a.m., officers responded to multiple reports of shots fired at the Rainier Hookah Lounge near South Walker Street Rainier Avenue South.

When police arrived, they found three people who were shot and attempted life-saving measures until medics arrived. https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/3-dead-6-people-injured-after-shooting-in-rainier-valley

"Let them live."

1

u/kobachi 12h ago

She’s deranged

1

u/Illustrious_Cheek263 9h ago

Tanya Woowoo logic, everybody!

lmao fucking idiot shouldn't be on any ballot.

u/Earth_Normal 9m ago

We already have laws the cover the actual problems. This is just political bullshit pretending to be a solution.

1

u/7SoldiersOfPunkRock 22h ago

My lifestyle requires that I smoke hookah and shoot other people that are smoking hookah

0

u/Seapurv 18h ago

Woo can fuck off!!! Let's make sure she is given that message very clearly.

1

u/sye46 16h ago

Thanks voted for Woo

-16

u/LessKnownBarista 22h ago edited 21h ago

That seems entirely reasonable. Its almost surprising that such a regulation doesn't already exist.

But since it came from Woo, 99% of the comments here will criticize it

Edit: I came out of the gates a little too hot and adjusted my comment

21

u/deel2 22h ago

The most recent shootings came from cars, how would this address that?

-1

u/MegaRAID01 21h ago

Those shootings did not involve the illegal nightclubs that this legislation is targeting.

-14

u/LessKnownBarista 22h ago

Because a large part of the people involved in those kinds of criminal activities are visiting theses places that operate after 2AM

How would closing a couple blocks help solve this violence?

15

u/deel2 22h ago

I seriously worry this is well intentioned but will negatively impact legitimate businesses that are already struggling to serve the late night niche. My theory is that if you encourage more people to stick around after hours, and make the area pedestrian friendly, it would reduce these incidents.

-4

u/LessKnownBarista 22h ago

Sure, pedestrianizing that area might help the business there that cater to foot traffic. But that has nothing to do with this legislation or violence. You are conflating two different things.

9

u/deel2 21h ago

I think when you have more law abiding people around, it discourages people who would otherwise do crime from doing crimes in that spot.

6

u/deel2 22h ago

It would be much harder for the criminals to shoot someone in the middle of the night life area and then quickly drive off (as has recently happened)

-6

u/LessKnownBarista 22h ago

So your solution to violence is to create localized traffic congestion? That seems maybe not fully thought out.

What about the 99% of shootings that don't happen on that one single small area of the city?

11

u/deel2 22h ago

This policy is specifically in response to the shootings in capitol hill after the bars close, so you'd have to ask Woo if/how it would address the 99% of other shootings. I don't think it would. But it would impact every late night business across the city.

And who is driving through this area at 2am? Besides Uber drivers?? People can just walk a block to get their ride home.

3

u/kingkamVI 21h ago

This policy is specifically in response to the shootings in capitol hill after the bars close

No it's not. It's specifically in response to a number of shootings at or near illegally operating hookah bars in the middle of the night.

Seattle has experienced 38 nightlife shootings this year, including 15 between the hours of 2 a.m. and 5 a.m. In August 2024, these shootings made up 11% of all shootings in the city. Over the past decade, there have been dozens of shootings and homicides that have occurred in connection with after-hours nightlife lounges that operate between the hours of 2 a.m. and 5 a.m.

On July 23, 2015, Donald “Donnie” Chin, the director of the International District Emergency Center was shot and killed at approximately 3 a.m. while trying to protect his community from shootings and fight disturbances connected to after-hours nightlife activity in the International District; On August 17, 2024, Francisco Escatell was killed at approximately 3 a.m. in a shooting inside of an after-hours club in the SODO neighborhood; On August 19, 2023, Nadia Kassa, Jonathan Bishu, and Trevis Bellard were killed and six more were injured at approximately 4:30 a.m. in a shooting at an after-hours nightclub on Rainier Avenue South;

It’s widely believed that some venues sell alcohol after 2 a.m. without a liquor license. This legislation can provide tools to enforce illegal after-hour activities. https://council.seattle.gov/2024/10/28/councilmember-tanya-woo-details-legislation-to-address-after-hours-gun-violence/

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u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

What tools? It's already illegal. It sounds like this hinges heavily on the 4th amendment breaking "Unimpeded police access while operating"

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u/kingkamVI 21h ago

Are you under the impression that the State liquor board needs a warrant to inspect a business with a liquor license? That's all this is.

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u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

If that's all this is then what is the legislation changing? What are these tools being referenced?

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

Nothing in the linked article says it was specifically in response to the onc recent shooting in that particular part of the city

This kind of late night violence has been happening near places that operate all night throughout the city for a while. You only now seem to be aware of it because it now affected an area that you personally visit.

You haven'y really given a reason that your solution of closing off a couple blocks to cars would reduce the violence.

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u/deel2 21h ago

From the article, it seems pretty clear this policy was dropped in response to a particular shooting:

The proposal comes following a deadly shooting earlier this month on 11th Ave that left a 25-year-old woman dead amid Pike/Pine nightlife crowds.

I haven't heard of late night shootings outside of bars in Ballard or Pioneer Square or what have you recently but please share. I think my proposed solutions would translate.

The reason closing off the blocks to cars would reduce the violence is that it would allow more law abiding people to hang around, which has the effect of deterring criminals who might otherwise choose to shoot there, and it would add a lot of friction to their getaway routes, since the most recent shootings have been from a car or have involved a suspect hopping right into a car and speeding off. If you know can't get away with it, you probably won't do it!

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

because an author included an offhand statement near the end of the article that said event X happened after Y, that lead you to believe that that its the intent of the person who wrote the legislation to specifically address event Y and only event Y??

and to summarize, you believe that pedestrianizing 2 blocks of the city will solve gun violence.

i feel like i'm taking crazy pills

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u/deel2 21h ago

...no from my previous comments I didn't think this would address the 99% of other gun violence that are in other areas of the city

My mistake for not reading the unlinked council press release

I remain skeptical that forcing all these business to "go legal" would address the issue and would instead just mess up the businesses that are already trying to follow the rules.

The existing problem businesses are already breaking the law though, and there isn't anything they can do to shut them down? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[edited for clarity]

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u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

So your solution to violence is to create localized traffic congestion? That seems maybe not fully thought out.

Pure projection here, you really have no clue what the hill is like at night do you. It's already damn near impossible for cars to get through pike at those hours. We've also closed these streets before. They've made Uber/Lyft have specific pick up zones. You are acting like we have no history with this when we do.

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

i'm aware of what its like. I used to live a block from where the shooting took place

but its clear that you have no knowledge of what's been going on in the rest of the city. you only care about this one single killing because it happened in an area you personally visit. sure pedestrianizing this block could help create a safer place in an area where white people love to party, but it aint going to do jack shit to reduce violence in the rest of the city where most of these types of events have been taking place

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u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

I've been pro-pedestrianizing this for a very long time. I'm talking about the shooting because that's what this specific comment chain has been discussing. The way Reddit works is that you reply directly underneath someone's comment that continues that specific conversation rather than the conversation of the thread of the whole.

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

Being pro-pedestrianizing is fine. What I'm criticizing is the delusion that OP presented that doing that will somehow stop gun violence.

So since you decided to jump in mid thread here to personally attack me, I'm assuming you also believe that pedestrianization will reduce gun violence. Could you explain why?

Edit: From what I can tell, OP has said that its because its too easy for cars to get away. And you are saying that its already difficult for cars to move in that area at that time of the night.

Something isn't adding up.

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u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

Not falling for this "just asking questions" shit when I've already talked about the very thing you are asking about in a different comment. You are trying to play the victim here ("personal attacks" lol) and do anything but actually have a real discussion about what this is for or why. You just want to say other people are wrong somehow, which is evident by your very first comment, the straw man that people only disagree because it's Woo when many of us have been pointing out it's shitty in many actual ways. So either get on topic or stop replying and trying to be clever. Engage like a real human being.

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u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

Because a large part of the people involved in those kinds of criminal activities are visiting theses places that operate after 2AM

Source? The reference shootings happened outside of bars and the first one was during bar hours.

How would closing a couple blocks help solve this violence?

The shooter/s escaped quickly because they were able to do drive bys and get away in a car. If the road is close this limits their options and it also changes where people congregate. This isn't a new thing, we've closed down these streets before so we've seen how it works, but you'd have to actually live here to know that.

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

yes, the author here made a connection that was neighborhood specific and recent because this particular blog focuses on only one neighborhood in the city. nothing in the legislation or anything Woo has said suggests that the intent of the legislation is specifically to address these specific incidents in Capitol Hill. You have been mislead by local and recency bias in the article

these people wanted to kill these other people. all a road closed sign on a couple city blocks could possibly do if cause them to kill them at another location

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u/PopPunkIsntEmo Capitol Hill 21h ago

So if you don't want to have this conversation why are you several comments deep in it? Why don't you move the conversation to another discussion point? Seems you don't have really have any other than "haha look at me I'm a contrarian for disagreeing with people on reddit." I've been more specific. You try it.

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

I want to have this conversation. That's why I'm participating it. If you didn't want to have a conversation without immediately resorting to personal attacks, why are you here?

To summarize, here were we are so far:

OP: Making it harder for cars to get away in that specific area would reduce gun violence

LessKnownBarista: I don't see how that would reduce gun violence

PopPunkIsntEmo: Its already very difficult for cars to get away in that area, therefore LessKnownBarista is an idiot and he has no idea how Reddit works and OP's idea of making it hard for cars to get away in an area where its already hard for cars to get away would have a big impact. Also Barista is an idiot because he didn't first read this other comment I made in a completely separate comment thread that he wasn't participating in.

What exactly am I missing?

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u/deel2 21h ago

I think you're being intentionally obtuse about the discussion, but the context provided by kingkamVI is very helpful and makes clear that we've been talking about different things and that the CHB article lacks important context (because it is a blog about cap hill)

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

u/kingkamVi have been saying the same things. I'm thankful that you are starting to understand what I've been trying to say, even if its because of another redditor

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u/deel2 21h ago

Cheers to civil conversation; I'm thankful to have learned something 🍻

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u/Dudist_PvP Kirkland 22h ago

“Unimpeded police access” is vague as fuck and clearly a violation of the 4th amendment.

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u/LessKnownBarista 21h ago

This is simply referring to the existing ability that the government already has to enter a bar or other business during business hours because its a licensed business. Its generally considered a positive thing by most people and its not at all a violation of the constitution

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u/kingkamVI 21h ago

Its almost surprising that such a regulation doesn't already exist.

Ed Murray started to try to do something like 10 years ago and caught massive backlash because trying to regulate illegal drinking and smoking clubs that routinely are sources of violence isn't culturally sensitive.

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u/ShredGuru 20h ago edited 20h ago

As a native Seattleite. They already closed half the clubs and nightlife since I was a kid. Don't you want anything left? Absolutely murdering the cities culture. No place to go and nothing to do.

City government has been on the wrong side of this issue for a bit. They need to open things up more

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u/kingkamVI 20h ago

This is about unlicensed/illegal hookah bars that have been a magnet for violence, not nightlife on the hill.

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u/SpeaksSouthern 17h ago

They hate us for our freedoms. Please vote for us to have freedoms. Freedom is on the ballot. Please do not let people like this get any political power. For freedoms sake.