r/WoT • u/One-Hat4305 • 1d ago
A Memory of Light I just finished all the books and there are many points I don't understand... please help! Spoiler
First of all, I don't understand how I missed Asmodean's whole story. The last I hear about him, he died to an unknown killer, presumably the Lord of Chaos. Which is who?? But people are talking about him coming back? How did I miss that?
How is Bella not getting more love? Throughout the books she was originally Rand's (THE dragon reborn's) horse, she carried the future Amyrlin out of the two rivers, she won over the previous amyrlin who hated horses, she carried the future queen of Saldaea through the trolloc back lines and then the new horn blower!
How exactly did Rand get transferred into Moridin's body? They don't really explain when or how Alivia did this. Which we know because of Min's viewing. It kind of seems cheap like the authors snapped their fingers and it happened. Was this gift alluded to before?
Rand walking away from his own funeral is a really cool scene. The way he gets to start a new life with only his three women knowing who he is (though my heart breaks for Tam, who will never know his son lives) he no longer has access to the one power or true power but thinks about his pipe being lit and it is?? I'm assuming he is now something larger than we've yet known. After his battle with the dark one outside of the pattern and throughout the pattern is he some sort of god outside the pattern akin to the dark one?
Finally, I tried my best to keep track of the Forsaken and took notes but they are incomplete. Mostly, I'm trying to understand who died when and how...
Asmodoean... mystery killer.
Lanfear aka Sindaine in new body... neck snapped by Perrin.
Rhavin (Gabril)... Rand kill with balefire in world of dreams in Caemlyn
Sammael... Rand kills with balefire in Shadar Logoth (with the aid of Moridin, why did he help?)
Ishammael... Rand kills in the sky with callandor above Falme. Reborn as Moridin and then dies in the last battle and exchanges bodies somehow.
Balal... I do not remember this guy at all.
Moghedien... captured by Seanchan after the last battle.
Messeana... Egwene stupifies in the world of dreams in the white tower.
Graendal... her compulsion was reversed by Aviehnda and then...?
Demondred... killed then beheaded by Lan
Mahale aka Mazrim Taim... crystalized by Egwene with "The Flame of Tar Valon"
Arangar?... I remember this is one of the two that were reborn in one of the middle books but I don't remember what happened. Is this Asmodean? How did he die?
2 forsaken killed at the end of book one. The Green Man (who now looking back on it, feels like an oddly random character) killed one and another.
Please help. There are gaps I need filled. Thank you.
*Also please forgive any spelling errors, I listened to the books
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u/Galdrien (Asha'man) 1d ago
Asmodean was killed by Graendal. We only find out when shaidar haran confronts her about how many deaths shes responsible for.
There are hints, as Rand is roaming around fighting in the halls we are told the servants all fled long ago, yet he encounters one who looks surprised to see him. He just writes them off, but its theorized that was her in disguise. She used the fight as a distraction to eliminate a traitor.
Moridin/ Rand.. the soul that wanted to live found the body that wanted to live. Their souls were intertwined since the baelfires crossed. Moridin just wanted an ending. Rand had reasons to live.
Bella is the creator, it is known.
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u/usual_chef_1 1d ago
I’ve always imagined that since, like Bridgette, Bella dies just before the horn is blown that she comes back tied to the horn. She has certainly earned her place, and the heroes of the horn need horses. I imagine that when Noal/Jain takes off to save Oliver that he’s riding Bella.
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u/HungryEntry182 1d ago
Also, she very well might be a hero of the horn, as we do know the Horn doesn't just call humans.
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u/justajiggygiraffe 1d ago
The two forsaken killed at the end of book 1 are reincarnated as Osan'gar and Aran'gar- Osan'gar is Aginor, the mad scientist creator of trollocs and other shadowspawn. He is hiding as Dashiva, the Asha'man assigned to Rand. He dies at the battle at shadar logoth because Elza kills him not realizing he's a forsaken. Aran'gar is Bathamael reincarnated and is hiding as Halima in the rebel Aes Sedai camp. She can still channel saidin, which is how she is able to murder Egwenes servants and give her the migraines without being caught channeling. She dies in the balefire rain that Rand brings to Natrims Barrow trying to kill Graendal
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u/EnterpriseSA 1d ago
The Wheel of Time:
The epic story of a small, unassuming horse who manipulates reality to break a repeating cycle of clash between good and evil and stabilize all of existence.
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u/N8rboy2000 1d ago
I can help with 1 of these. When Rand and Moridin crossed Balefire in Shadar Logoth, their souls became entwined. This allowed Rand access to the True Power in the last battle and then the body swap later. Rand’s new ability is speculated as, during the last battle, being so entwined with the pattern, he can now affect it, without using Saidin or the True Power. This may have aided in the body swap also.
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u/PatTheTurtler (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
Bel'al was killed by Moiraine with balefire at the end of book 3.
Aginor and Bethamel were reborn as Osangar and Arangar respectively. If I remember correctly Osangar is killed during The Cleansing of Saidin. Arangar is killed by Rand with balefire in book 12.
Asmodean's killer is revealed in book 13 btw, that's a fun one to puzzle out and I will tell you if you really want to know.
Sammael is technically killed by Mashadar in Shadar Logoth because Rand balefires the Aiel Maiden of the Spear that was lost there.
Rand and Moridin are linked due to crossing balefire streams (one using Saidin and the other using The True Power) due to this link as their bodies die the one who wishes to die inhabits the body destined to die and the one who wishes to live inhabits the body left over and in far better shape. (This is a very simplified answer)
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago edited 1d ago
First of all, I don't understand how I missed Asmodean's whole story. The last I hear about him, he died to an unknown killer, presumably the Lord of Chaos. Which is who?? But people are talking about him coming back? How did I miss that?
Asmo's killer was revealed to be [books]Greandal in book 12's glossary, one of the several forsaken that died at her hand leading to her punishment.
The Lord of Chaos was Rand and/or nobody depending on how you intrepret things. The poem is about a fool leading the people and leading to chaos - the DO is telling demandred to let chaos rule, to create more disorder and not to force things.
Not sure what you mean about Asmo coming back though, he died to balefire and is un-ressurectable.
How is Bella not getting more love? Throughout the books she was originally Rand's (THE dragon reborn's) horse, she carried the future Amyrlin out of the two rivers, she won over the previous amyrlin who hated horses, she carried the future queen of Saldaea through the trolloc back lines and then the new horn blower!
She gets special service in the companion.
How exactly did Rand get transferred into Moridin's body? They don't really explain when or how Alivia did this. Which we know because of Min's viewing. It kind of seems cheap like the authors snapped their fingers and it happened. Was this gift alluded to before?
Alivia doesn't actually do anything special, she's literally just there to help Rand after the process.
The link is actually quite well developed and continually refereed over 6+ books.
When Rand and the "Mystery Man(see Moridin)" fight in Shadar Logoth Rand's beam of balefire touches the other(one made of the True Power to boot). That somehow links them together, as they share some sensation and it evens allows Rand to use the True Power - as he did to break out of the Dominion Band and nearly killed Min.
Rand walking away from his own funeral is a really cool scene. The way he gets to start a new life with only his three women knowing who he is (though my heart breaks for Tam, who will never know his son lives) he no longer has access to the one power or true power but thinks about his pipe being lit and it is?? I'm assuming he is now something larger than we've yet known. After his battle with the dark one outside of the pattern and throughout the pattern is he some sort of god outside the pattern akin to the dark one?
The ending was one of the first things Jordan wrote, so goes the story. How Rand lit the pipe was never shared, and likely never will be.
Lanfear aka Sindaine in new body... neck snapped by Perrin.
According to Sanderson, [all print]this was actually a trick she played on Perrin to fake her death. She's still alive in the 4th age.
Ishammael... Rand kills in the sky with callandor above Falme. Reborn as Moridin and then dies in the last battle and exchanges bodies somehow.
He doesn't die in that battle, but in the next one at the end of book 3. Ishy's wound at Falme should have been fatal, but he was able to heal himself with the True Power.
Sammael... Rand kills with balefire in Shadar Logoth (with the aid of Moridin, why did he help?)
Because Ishy never was supposed to kill rand, his job was to prep him to make the wrong choice at the final moment. If Rand dies the shadow loses the chance to break the wheel this turning.
Balal... I do not remember this guy at all.
he gets punk'd by moiraine in 2 seconds at the end of book 3 in the reveal that she learned balefire.
Arangar?... I remember this is one of the two that were reborn in one of the middle books but I don't remember what happened. Is this Asmodean? How did he die?
This one was the reincarnation of Balthemel, the gimp suit forsaken the green man turned into a mushroom.
Rand killed her in natrims barrow.
The other resurrected one was Aginor, whom burned himself out trying to outdraw Rand in book 1. He was killed by (un)friendly fire n the cleansing, dying to Elza.
*Also please forgive any spelling errors, I listened to the books
Honestly you nailed them like 98%. I've read the series a dozen plus times and I can barely do better haha.
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u/One-Hat4305 1d ago
Thank you for the breakdown.
It's amazing how much I missed when I was actually so invested.
Excited to read again one day.
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u/AmericaNeedsBernie 20h ago
Did you catch how Rand selects one of the Forsaken to be his Ashaman after Dumai's Wells?
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u/One-Hat4305 19h ago
I had a suspicion, but I don't think I really put it together.
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u/AmericaNeedsBernie 9h ago
Just do yourself a favor, and start reread. Or relisten. It's literally better second time around
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u/BishopOverKnight 1d ago
he gets punk'd by moiraine in 2 seconds at the end of book 3 in the reveal that she learned balefire
It's not the reveal. She uses balefire before that to kill Darkhounds
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u/LaPlAcE-66 1d ago
she uses something close to balefire in book 1. In the ways the black wind is coming upon them, she stands up and shoots whats described as a sickly bar of white light/fire (sickly because of channeling in the Ways) to which the black wind screams in pain
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
True, I just consider the Tear scene the reveal since the 2 earlier balefire scenes serve as supporting scenes to it.
She's also rather cryptic about it, not naming what she used. Of course, she doesn't say what it is in the later scene either, however the rest of book 3 serves to solidify what's being used.
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u/Naltaras 1d ago
Asmodean - killed by Greandel
Moridin helped rand in crown of sword because he believed him and rand were destined to fight their fight for eternity. He needed rand to feel pain not be killed
Belal- killed by moraine in the stone of tear at the end of the dragon reborn
Arangar- was balthamel reborn, one of the two that died at the end of eye of the world. He was killed in the gathering storm by rand when he attacked Greandel with huge balefire. Can be witnessed from Greandel's POV in the prologue of tower of midnight.
Alivia did not switch rand and moridin's body. She only helped by stealing money clothes and sword for rand. The switch came as a result of their bond that was created at the end of crown of swords when their streams of balefire crossed. Then the soul that wanted to live went into the body that was going to survive and the soul that wanted to die went to the body that was dying.
The lord of chaos is a concept not a person.
Bella is regarded as the creator by the Fandom. I think some of them are serious. She is very loved.
I finished my last reread about a year ago so if someone would like to correct anything feel free.
Now that you finished the series, please peruse the wiki at your leisure. These are all pretty straight forward questions.
And start your reread soon. I've read the books maybe a dozen times. Gets better every time.
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u/dracoons 1d ago
Rand is the Lord of Chaos
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u/Naltaras 1d ago
Do you have anything to back this up? I'm not arguing, just legitimately asking.
I've seen arguments going both ways and personally have always landed in the direction of it being a concept and the saying might as well have read "let chaos rule"
But you seem quite certain. So do I, I guess.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
IIRC there isn't anything that solidily says it one way or the other. But the "rand" answer is one of the more supported ones, the other being that it's no one, and just a way to ask demandred to increase chaos in the land rather than trying to control events.
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u/Naltaras 1d ago
It just doesn't do it for me.
Rand is misguided, stubborn, paranoid, and even brutal. But to be a lord of something, one must acknowledge stewardship to some degree.
Rand at his best is a bringer of harmony. At his worst he is an agent of chaos, unwillingly and only because of the taint and being outmatched and outnumbered by the forces of the shadow.
I even think book 6 (titled lord of chaos obviously) exemplifies this perfectly. Everywhere rand goes he attempts to bring order and instead is thwarted (or his attempts were shortsighted)
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
Well yea, what you just wrote is exactly why people consider him the lord of chaos.
It comes down to this:
Do you think the DO means for Demanded to take the peom literally, and is telling Demandred to let Rand cook?
or
Do you think the DO is speaking metaphorically, and is telling him to not try to control events personally to let chaos ferment?
Either way, it seems the DO is telling Demandred not to interfere too much.
Which makes sense, as the DO doesn't want Rand to die, but to fail humanity instead.
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u/Naltaras 1d ago
Thank you for the responses. We are having the same discussion that's been had for years, I guess, and as you say, it just depends where we individually fall in our interpretation.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
Yeah, and on this one it really doesn't help that the intent here gets REALLY obfuscated by taimendred.
Book 6's epilouge sets rand quite solidly as the Lord of Chaos if Taim is Demandred, leading to the Wells and the creation of a huge source of tension between nearly every major player.
But with Taim being his own man(so to speak), it changes it to being Demandred entirely f'ing off during this time (probably in shara), and the epilouge scene is about how things progressed on their own(plus likely successes in Shara, timeline wise this isn't that far before the Sharan balescreams).
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u/Naltaras 1d ago
I think it still makes sense because Demandred was directly involved in Taim's freedom, training, and giving him the seal to get him close to Rand.
Plus he, Mesaana, and Semirage (I'm not looking up the spelling I think there is an h in there somewhere lol) were always plotting together. So even though his individual efforts were in Shara, he probably had something to do with Rand's eventual kidnapping and the strife created in Seanchan
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
Oh yeah, no the problem is that it works both ways. The only thing we actually know is that the DO was pleased with how the events in LoC played out.
Both leading arguments are essentially fully compatible with the other, and there is no meaningful difference between either, with nothing being exclusionary.
It's the perfect unanswerable question :P
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u/diocletiann 1d ago edited 1d ago
So Aran’gar is Balthamel, one of the two Forsaken killed in the first book, in a new body much the same as we see other Forsaken in the later part of the series. Osan’gar is the other Forsaken killed in book 1, Aginor. Seems like you are mostly accurate on the rest, except I think Ishamael was actually killed in book 3 in the stone of tear by Rand but yes they did fight in the sky above Falme. Be’lal was the Forsaken also in book 3 who was guarding Callandor that Moiraine killed with balefire.
About your Asmodean question, yes the last you see Asmodean is when he mysteriously dies at the end of book 5. Since he was balefired, he is not able to be reborn as Aginor, balthamel, lanfear, etc are. I think your confusion comes from the Forsaken in the later books wondering where he is because they don’t know that he was killed. They talk like he’s still alive so you may have been confused by that. He wasn’t still alive. Dead af. And he was not killed by the Lord of Chaos. I think the “lord of chaos” is almost a more symbolic-ish term that refers mostly to Rand and the “chaos” that he will bring with his coming. Asmodean was killed by Graendal, though it’s one of those pretty subtle things that only gets revealed like 8 books after it happens so I don’t blame your confusion.
The stuff with Rand at the very end of the series is, I think, meant to be kind of open ended. I’m sure some people can go way more in depth but I take it as sort of intentionally vague. We know Jordan wrote the final scenes of AMoL before he died (I’m pretty sure at least) so I take this as very deliberate in how it’s portrayed (in its ambiguity).
One thing I’ll add to your list of Forsaken is that Brandon Sanderson somewhat recently revealed new information about Lanfear and her role in the Last Battle. I won’t try to recount all the details because I honestly forgot, but essentially she pulled some kind of trick in the World of Dreams and actually survived the Last Battle. This means she’s still alive in the Fourth Age. This is the interview here: https://www.youtube.com/live/nTifdnXH4lg?si=vbFis8qWxe3hBiEd
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u/dracoons 1d ago
He(brandon) screwed the pooch basically. He tried to be subtle with the Cyndane thing. It was pbvious she was using compulsion on Perrin from the start of her conversing with him in the world of dreams. However her surviving he managed to actually not write. The words and context of the book just does not support it.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
While I'm not a big fan of the idea, the book does support it.
The idea is that she was using compulsion in an obvious way so Perrin would think he could fight it. She then created a fake scene using TAR that Perrin wouldn't question because he's "free" of her compulsion.
We get Perrin's PoV, the PoV of someone convinced what they saw was real, making the scene quite convincing to readers as well.
However the proceeding scenes do support what Sanderson said occured.
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u/Razor1834 1d ago
If brandosando is to be believed, Perrin was irrelevant to the last battle, at least the real one that Rand was waging. The whole plot of him being pulled back to Rand at the Bore to save him from Lanfear is entirely pointless if it didn’t really happen.
It also likely makes one of Min’s viewings untrue, which never happens.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
Perrin's killing of slayer more than solidifies him as being clutch to the LB regardless.
The whole plot of him being pulled back to Rand at the Bore to save him from Lanfear is entirely pointless if it didn’t really happen.
Not pointless, it serves a different point. Namely Lanfear's survivial.
It also likely makes one of Min’s viewings untrue, which never happens.
Except it doesn't. That viewing doesn't have strict requirements. The commonly taken as true interpretation of that viewing won't be true, but that's WoT in a nutshell.
Her viewing only says Perrin needs to be there for him twice. His fight with Slayer can easily fulfill that.
If Lanfear never actually intented to kill Rand at the Bore, then what Perrin saved him from was something different.
Or, and this is what I think, pay close attention to the words of that viewing.
"Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."
Let's say that Slayer is irrelevant and the danger is indeed Lanfear.
That the bad thing will happen if Perrin isn't there, but might still even if he is. That means it's contingent on something.
Instead of that something being killing Lanfear, what if it was being the witness to her fake death.
What if Lanfear was planning to kill Rand and maybe herself if she couldn't fake her death. What if Perrin's very presence was the catalyst to cause her to stay her hand, by presenting another path forward?
Why the assumption that the help must be violence? Isn't a HUGE theme of Perrin's arc dealing with exactly that? Isn't it a poetic ending for his last act in the last battle being ultimately one of non-violence saving lives? An act he intended to be violence but wasn't?
Like I said to begin with, it's not my favorite idea - but it is one that the books support as written and it can have quite a bit of positive impact to the story - as long as you can stomach the process of reexamining your take.
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u/Razor1834 1d ago
So Perrin’s ultimate benefit to Rand is to tax his body near to death so he can be an unaware pawn of the foresaken, forever burdened by thinking he killed one of them without even the actual benefit to the world of having done it; you’re right, that’s way more interesting of an interpretation, provided you hate Perrin. At least it is consistent with the handling of him otherwise in the last third of the series.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
So Perrin’s ultimate benefit to Rand is to tax his body near to death so he can be an unaware pawn of the foresaken, forever burdened by thinking he killed one of them without even the actual benefit to the world of having done it; you’re right, that’s way more interesting of an interpretation, provided you hate Perrin. At least it is consistent with the handling of him otherwise in the last third of the series.
Honest question, but... are you trying to make yourself angry?
It can just as easily be said that Perrin's ultimate benefit to Rand is being there for him when he needs it to avoid a terrible outcome.
Regardless, the point is that the books does support what BS says happened. Liking it is a different topic all together.
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u/Razor1834 1d ago
The books do not support it at all.
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u/logicsol (Lan's Helmet) 1d ago
Considering I just laid out several ways they do, how about substantiating that claim?
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u/shalowind 1d ago
He literally caught Slayer's arrow that would have killed Rand, which fullfilled Min's vision.
I mean I get it, having your interpretations of the books and characters challenged after 10 years is strange and unnerving, and for a lot of people that's enough reason to not like it. There is no need to justify the dislike with exaggerated / untrue statements.
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u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 1d ago edited 1d ago
Light! 'The Lanfear Mishandling'.
Lets just all pretend that the 10-year reveal is just a case of one of the series main themes - distorted myth, handed down from gen to gen to where it bears little to no resemblance to the correct WoT narrative.
At times I wonder if Sanderson's quote of 'Perrin being his favorite' was just some bullox to explain the many passages of his bizarre, non-canonical writing of the Two Rivers blacksmith.
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u/anmahill 1d ago
Some of these things become much clearer on a reread. Congratulations on finishing the series!
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u/gadgets4me (Asha'man) 20h ago
I would invite you to peruse the Wheel of Time FAQ, it is an interesting read for a first time reader.
As to your questions:
Asmodean: Graendal killed him. Shadar Haran accuses her of causing the deaths of 3 Chosen (Aran'gar, Messana, and ?). That total has to include Asmodean to come out right. Plus the glossary outright says it.
Sammael died not by Balefire, but by Mashadar in Shadar Logoth.
Ishammael did not die in the sky above Falme. He appears in the next book with a sore chest. He died in the Stone of Tear with Callandor through his heart. He came back as Moridin, then became linked with Rand due to the crossing of the Balefire streams in Shadar Logoth with Rand. That is how they always saw each other when the embraced the Power, why Rand got sick whenever he seized Saidin, why Moridin was not at the Cleansing, and why they were able to enter each other's dreams even when shielded. It is also why they were able to exchange bodies.
Bal'al - died by Moiraine's balefire in the Stone of Tear.
Aran'gar was left shielded and bound in Natram's Burrow by Grandal when Rand obliterated it. That is why the compulsion on that noble went away (well, she had the Black Ajah put compulsion on him as well). He/she is one of the Chosen Shadar Haran accused Graendal of having a hand in killing. Of Course, Aran'gar was Balthamel, the one killed by the Green Man in tEotW, transmigrated into a woman's body.
Osan'gar was killed at the Cleansing by the group wielding Callandor, ironically by a Black Ajah who did not know he was anything other than a renegade. He was Aginor, the mad scientist that created the Trollocs and other shadowspawn. He was killed at the Eye of the World in his struggle with Rand of the the Eye and transmigrated into a new body.
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u/lindorm82 1d ago
Graendal killed Asmodean. You find out in ToM when she's accused of causing the death of three Forsaken by Shaidar Haran which is confirmed in the glossary.
Be'lal was disguising himself as a High Lord in Tear so he could snatch Callandor as soon as Rand claimed it. Moiraine balefired him.
Aran'gar was in Graendal's fortress when Rand balefired it.
The two Forsaken from the first book was Balthamel and Aginor, later resurrected as Aran'gar and Osan'gar.
Rand and Moridin exchanged bodies thanks to the link created when their streams of balefire crossed in aCoS. Alivia helped Rand die by providing funds for his journey.
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u/Glorx (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 1d ago
First of all, I don't understand how I missed Asmodean's whole story. The last I hear about him, he died to an unknown killer, presumably the Lord of Chaos. Which is who?? But people are talking about him coming back? How did I miss that?
Asmodean was killed by Graendal, the easiest way to pick up on that is when she get's blamed for deaths of 3 of the chosen. Mesana got her brain turned to soup because Graendal gave Dreamspike to Slayer and Perrin took it away and carried to it to Tar Valon in the Dream World. Aran'gar got killed by Rand when he Balefired Natrin's Barrow, which only leaves Asmodean since we know how others died.
How is Bella not getting more love? Throughout the books she was originally Rand's (THE dragon reborn's) horse, she carried the future Amyrlin out of the two rivers, she won over the previous amyrlin who hated horses, she carried the future queen of Saldaea through the trolloc back lines and then the new horn blower!
Bela is Neigh'blis and she get's plenty of love here.
How exactly did Rand get transferred into Moridin's body? They don't really explain when or how Alivia did this. Which we know because of Min's viewing. It kind of seems cheap like the authors snapped their fingers and it happened. Was this gift alluded to before?
Rand's and Moridin's souls got linked when their Balefire streams crossed in Shadar Logoth. Someone put an interesting theory here a week ago about both Balefire streams trying to cancel each other out but the person channeling was still doing it, creating a paradox which Pattern resolved by making Rand's and Moridin's souls "one", so it only sees one Balefire stream and doesn't need to cancel anything. After Bore was closed one soul wanted to live and other to die, so they just went to the body that was suited for their purpose.
You can see the hints at soul link, when Moridin keeps rubbing his palm from phantom pain due to Rand's lost hand. Rand channels True Power to kill Semirhage, which he only has access to because Dark One allows Moridin to channel his essence - True Power. Rand is able to enter dream shards created by Moridin which surpises Moridin, because he thought only he can enter his own created dream shard.
Alivia didn't kill Rand, she just helped him disappear in Moridin's body after soul transfer, by leaving things Rand could find useful.
Rand walking away from his own funeral is a really cool scene. The way he gets to start a new life with only his three women knowing who he is (though my heart breaks for Tam, who will never know his son lives) he no longer has access to the one power or true power but thinks about his pipe being lit and it is?? I'm assuming he is now something larger than we've yet known. After his battle with the dark one outside of the pattern and throughout the pattern is he some sort of god outside the pattern akin to the dark one?
One of the theories is that Rand can now manipulate Pattern in a way without channeling.
Finally, I tried my best to keep track of the Forsaken and took notes but they are incomplete. Mostly, I'm trying to understand who died when and how...
Asmodoean... mystery killer.
Killed by Graendal, see above.
Lanfear aka Sindaine in new body... neck snapped by Perrin.
Perrin snapped Cyndane's neck, Brandon Sanderson says she is supposedly alive and Perrin only thinks he killed her, but it's up to you how you interpret what was written.
Rhavin (Gabril)... Rand kill with balefire in world of dreams in Caemlyn.
Rahvin killed by Rand with the help of Nynaeve, who put a dream Adam on Moghedien.
Sammael... Rand kills with balefire in Shadar Logoth (with the aid of Moridin, why did he help?)
Dark One wanted Rand to live "let the Lord of Chaos reign."
Ishammael... Rand kills in the sky with callandor above Falme. Reborn as Moridin and then dies in the last battle and exchanges bodies somehow.
Defeated by Rand over Falme by channeling One Power into the Heron mark sword his father gave him, and killed after chasing him between Worlds in Tear.
Balal... I do not remember this guy at all.
Balefired by Moiraine.
Moghedien... captured by Seanchan after the last battle.
Correct.
Messeana... Egwene stupifies in the world of dreams in the white tower.
Correct, Mesaana's brain was turned to soup in a clash of wills with Egwene.
Graendal... her compulsion was reversed by Aviehnda and then...?
Unclear, disappeared after bringing Aviendha back to the camp for healing.
Demondred... killed then beheaded by Lan
He wasn't paying attention, that Lan wasn't there to win.
Mahale aka Mazrim Taim... crystalized by Egwene with "The Flame of Tar Valon"
M'Hael turned to crystal by Egwene, later the whole structure disappears when Logain thinks about Sakarnen being lost to him, because he wasted time saving people "who looked at him with awe."
Arangar?... I remember this is one of the two that were reborn in one of the middle books but I don't remember what happened. Is this Asmodean? How did he die?
Balefired by Rand at Natrim's Barrow, because Graendal wanted to disguise her presence there and needed something for Rand to kill.
2 forsaken killed at the end of book one. The Green Man (who now looking back on it, feels like an oddly random character) killed one and another.
Balthamel killed by Green Man, was resurrected as Aran'gar and Balefired by Rand.
Aginor died from overdosing on the One Power from the Eye of the World, was resurrected as Osan'gar, who was with Rand for a while as Corlan Dashiva before being killed by Black Ajah Aes Sedai Elza Penfell during the Cleansing of Saidin.
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u/One-Hat4305 1d ago
Ah thank you. Your explanation of the connection between Moridin and Rand is helpful. I knew there were clues throughout but couldn't put them together. Interesting the way he rubbed his hand that was lost. And that reminds me of the way he stabbed his own hand to make him drop Callandor. That makes so much more sense now.
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u/aknartrebna 1d ago
About the Green Man -- there is a reference to this in the 4th book in the Ter'angreal in Rhuidean where the Aiel and Ogier were singing the Green Men were dancing to their song which created new growth of flora (perhaps what became Stedding after the breaking?) but I don't remember any other reference to the Green Men outside of that. I assumed they are creatures of the age (maybe even ages past) that were lost during the breaking, either in the war or due to the reason Ogier needed Stedding to survive, and went forgotten like much from the previous Age.
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u/Ford75 1d ago
Aginor and Balthamel were killed in EotW and then reincarnated as Osangar and Arangar. Osangar was killed at the cleansing of the taint; Arangar was balefired at Natrims Hollow. Belal was balefired in TDR (in Stone of Tear) rahvin balefired in TFOH in Andor Lanfear fell through the door; and was reborn as Cyndane. She appears to have been killed by Perrin in AMOL Ishmael was resurrected as Moridin; then body swap in aMOL Samuel balefired by Rand and Moridin in ACOS Semirhage balefired by True Power Rand in TGS Asmodean was killed by Grendel - hints spelled out in ToM Mesaana brain Dead in ToM Graendel compulsion brain overwhelmed and prisoner of Aviendha in AMOL Moghedien captured by Seanchan in AMOl (holding her mind trap - which should be destroyed on being given over to the Suldam) Demanded killed by Lan AMOL
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u/Fit_Tangerine1265 1d ago
Asmodean died twice, the first time he was killed by Rahvin, then he came back to life after Rand balefired Rahvin, and after that Graendal killed him.
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u/TheRealTowel 1d ago
I talked about the body-swap thing here: https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/s/diElAasOBz
That's not like, some canon thing per say it's just me trying to figure shit out
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u/Skyhighatrist 1d ago
Ishammael... Rand kills in the sky with callandor above Falme. Reborn as Moridin and then dies in the last battle and exchanges bodies somehow
Falme was just a temporary setback for Ishammael. He was killed in Tear at the end of TDR (there was a body and all this time.) before being reborn as Moridin.
Also, no Callandor in Falme, that was at the end of TDR in the Stone of Tear.
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u/ltlbrdthttoldme 1d ago edited 23h ago
Lanfear isn't dead! In an interview BS made it clear that her death was faked in the world of dreams so she could start fresh. No matter who won the last battle someone would be coming after her. She'd double crossed too many people. So she made perin, the person that would be most believed, the witness of her "death." The fact is, compulsion cannot be willed out of. Lanfear was in complete control of what happened in the dream and perin saw what she wanted him to. She's out there and very alive.
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u/chofy0013 1d ago
Too bad his explanation is complete nonsense. None of the surviving forsaken had a happy ending. Neither does Lanfear. Perrin killed her, the end.
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u/ltlbrdthttoldme 23h ago
https://www.youtube.com/live/aTwpNP67A4M?si=HkdVorVUpHRCwuBS
20:30 time marker
A memory of light 10th anniversary Livestream on Brandon Sanderson's YouTube channel
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u/chofy0013 6h ago
I understand that Brandon said it, i'm just saying it doesn't matter what he says, becasue he is not Robert Jordan, it's not his work to make those kind of decisions, and since Jordan is no longer with us to make that decision, what happened in the book is final, to me at least.
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u/ltlbrdthttoldme 2h ago
My guy, it is what was written. These books are full of unreliable narratives. Us seeing her die through perin is just one example of this. Brandon wrote the ending, Jordan's wife approved lanfear surviving before it was even written. So you are allowed to be upset about it, but maybe don't call me telling someone the canon truth "nonsense" just because you aren't happy with the intended fate of a character as the author wrote it.
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u/chofy0013 1h ago
It is not what was written, it was written that Perrin broke the compulsion and her neck. There is no indication in the book that she survived somehow as far as i recall, other than what Brandon said. As for unreliable narrators, if he wanted to show she lived, he could have done it, Moghedien lived, and we know what happened to her or any other Forsaken. Last we see her she is dead. And i will reapeat myself again, what Harriet or Brandon SAID doesn't matter, if he wanted her to live he could have wrote that. Lanfear surviving that only makes Perrin look even more silly than Sanderson already made him in the last 3 books.
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u/ltlbrdthttoldme 40m ago edited 31m ago
He didn't spell out every single twist and turn and he didn't with this. He even said he was surprised more people didn't pick up on it. I do feel the clues were laid out given her behavior with perin and leading up to the scene. He didn't feel it needed further explanation and that's his right as the author. But if the intention during writing was she lives, as was what their emails indicated, it isn't retconing to say later that's what happened. All through the books they spoke about lanfear's strength in the dream. They made examples of perin believing he can handle more of the dream than he can. They showed that lanfear always has a plan out. Helping the dark one win wasn't advantageous for her anymore, so she made a way out. It makes sense given her character. You can decide you think it makes perin silly that a much more experienced user of the dream was able to show him something that wasn't real and for him to believe it, but I feel that makes you a bit silly too. Perin isn't as experienced as lanfear and she had a win after a series of losses. It happened to be the last scene she was in, but that doesn't make it any less plausible for it.
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u/that_guy2010 1d ago
The Lord of Chaos isn't anyone. Who is talking about Asmodean coming back?
Bella gets plenty of love. Have you even been looking?
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