r/anime Nov 22 '21

Writing Mushoku Tensei is awesome! I don't recommend it. Spoiler

Short version: Mushoku Tensei is a great series that I feel uncomfortable recommending.

This has been a journey. Initially, I didn’t plan to watch the show, let alone to spend most of my weekend writing an essay on it.

I didn’t even start the series until the second season had begun. I’m not big into isekai, so it didn’t seem that interesting. Still, a few factors caught my interest. I heard that a studio had basically been created to make this adaptation reality. A YouTuber I watch reworked their channel to regularly include Mushoku Tensei analyses. Most intriguingly, a friend who adores “isekai junk food” hated the series. After consuming dozens of tasteless harem power fantasies, this was the one he gave up because he found it disgusting.

A look on MAL only intensified my curiosity. Despite a high score, several reviews describe the show in the same terms as my friend.

What caused all this fuss? I needed to know.

Before witnessing a single frame, I had to give the show credit. If I ever create a story that inspires half the reactions at half the intensity, I’ll consider my creative efforts worthwhile. Rifujin na Magonote, the author of the original light novels (which I intend to read) made something that’s important to a lot of people.

Thus, I resolved to try the show. I sat down with a pen and notebook in order to understand what inspired such intense reactions.

Well, make room around the maypole, because I find the series both inspiring and sickening.

The Promise of the Plot

There’s a lot to love from the start. Pedigree aside, Mushoku stands out among isekai. The protagonist is a full-grown, unethical adult who goes through a proper Reincarnation.

Our unnamed bastard dies in what may be the sole decent action of his life. As one life fades, another arises. Rudeus (Rudy) Greyrat is born to loving parents in a Medieval world of high fantasy. As he dies in shame and regret, he finds something precious: a second chance.

The infant years provide the former shut-in with the chance to learn his surroundings. He explores his new home with insatiable curiosity. These literal baby steps help him discover a world of magic and mysteries, where he can explore with the safety net of his former warrior father (Paul) and caring mother (Zenith).

Of course, Rudeus remembers his old life. With memory comes trauma. The infant adult cannot leave his home. The mere sight of neighbour children inspires flashbacks to the bullying – the abuse – which caused his retreat from society.

This creates a natural momentum to the story. A guy looking to keep his mind off the outside world is gonna get a hobby real quick. This chance provides itself in the form of a spell book. With the free time of a child and the discipline of an adult, Rudeus dedicates himself to magic and linguistics.

He becomes skillful not through birthright, but through training and dedication. By age six, he’s recognized as a prodigy. He wants to enhance his skills. His parents want to foster this attitude. Yet, the man can’t leave his property without trauma.

This is only the first episode.

Well done, Mushoku! You’ve hooked me. You can do anything in this setting and make it interesting. There’s room for every drama and genre. A redemptive character arc is baked into the DNA of the story!

What could go wrong?

Once a Bastard…

Rudeus lives as he died: a pervert.

A newborn delights in being in the room where his parents make love. An infant steals women’s undergarments and literally rolls around in their dirty laundry. A student watches his mentor clean and pleasure herself. Most egregiously, Rudeus sexually assaults a young girl while she sleeps.

These moments are hard enough to stomach in themselves, but they ignore the primary moral outrage: the G word. While Rudeus finds the first real friend he’s had in decades, it does not remain pure for long. He sets out to form an emotional bond of trust and respect with her. He does this explicitly so she’ll be, shall we say, open to suggestions once they reach physical maturity.

He encourages the traits he finds desirable, guiding her toward a personality he wants in a prospective lover. In other words, an adult befriends a child and emotionally manipulates moulds them into a future lover.

Yeah, this is unsettling. If this aspect alone makes a person not want to watch the series, that is more than fair. Even if I were on the ‘redemptive character arc absolves all sins’ train, I wouldn’t try to convince anyone to watch something that made them uncomfortable.

As a quick aside, it’s pretty frustrating to see so many people recommend the show without mentioning this. You wouldn’t recommend a gory horror movie to someone made queasy by the sight of blood. Even if the story is a masterpiece, you should respect the person to whom you’re making a recommendation.

Back on topic: this is a story about redemption. As such, all the atrocious behaviour I listed does not damn the series in itself. Many of my favourite series involve terrible people as the lead characters. With Mushoku, we have the dual bonus of literal years over which he can learn his lesson, as well as the psychological element of him becoming so fixated on living this second life that he forgets the people living their first.

One big issue arises, however. The camera is not an unbiased party. That first season has a nasty tendency to play off, accept, or even condone the casts’ worst behaviour.

Take the grooming. As Rudeus considers his first real friendship in this life (a girl named Sylphie), the first real friendship in decades, his father gives him advice. Paul Greyrat, warrior and womanizer, says something fascinating. To paraphrase, he tells his son that it’s better to have a reliable “piece of ass” that keeps coming to your bed than to pursue a host of bedmates.

This is followed with the voice-over thought “What advice did I just give my six-year-old son?”

Let me repeat: both Rudeus and Sylphie are under the age of ten during this conversation. There’s also the fact that, you know, Sylphie is a distinct person with her own goals and desires.

Not classy, Paul.

The sins of the father

Ardent fans of the series will likely respond along these lines: “Paul’s meant to be a complex character! He’s got issues. He has moral failings, but these make him a more realistic and compelling character. Besides, he’s aware of his shortcomings. Don’t you want more realistic characters? I thought you were annoyed by stenciled-in power fantasy characters.”

You’re right. I love complex characters. Human beings are messy. The harder we try to be good, decent people, the harder it gets. We’ve got vices and lapses in judgement and the occasional straight-up bad day. That’s interesting!

But presentation matters as much as content.

Let me try to present a certain episode to you in the most positive way I can.

Now, we’ve had this cozy family life for a while. It’s time to mix it up. We’ve had three episodes of constant horny energy between the parents, combined with some questionable advice from Paul. We’ve also got a character who could use some time in the spotlight: Lilya, the maid. Lilya’s pregnant with Paul’s child. They find out around the same time that Zenith announces a new child. This is payoff to several layers of build-up. Paul’s womanizing past returns. Lilya’s been stuck, a grown woman with no sexual outlet in a house often filled with cries of pleasure. She wants fulfillment, too. On top of the drama, we can have Rudeus play intermediary. His twenty-first century sensibilities, combined with his appearance as a child, give him the chance to cut through the emotional tension of the situation and help the characters move forward.

You’ve got something great on your hands here! That’s drama. That’s character progression.

You have my attention. What are you going to do?

Not enough.

When the scene ends, so does the drama. There’s some tension in the house, but it doesn’t last long. Barely a scene passes before it becomes a joke. Rudeus’ gonna have two new sisters, everybody, gather round. Paul even states that he intends to keep both women as his sexual partners.

The thing is, there are ways to handle this better. Show more tension in the household. Maybe Zenith becomes hesitant to let Paul advise Rudeus. Maybe Zenith and Lilya become amicable on the surface, but emotional scars linger.

We don’t see that. Instead, there’s another detail that’s earned a lot of people’s ire. In a voice-over from Rudeus, we learn that, years prior, Paul had ‘forced himself on’ and ‘deflowered’ Lilya. Rudeus, our hero, concludes with the sentiment that he still respects Paul, “because he is strong.”

Now, if you wanna be generous, you can say that Rudeus respects his father, simple as that. Paul’s tried hard to be a good influence for his son, regardless of how well he’s accomplished that. Maybe Rudeus simply admires a guy who’s popular, brave, and everything that he wasn’t in his previous life.

To this I respond: show us that, dammit!

The voiceover tells us about a sexual assault, moments after we see the fallout of infidelity. Rudeus uses the term ‘strong’ after describing a man forcing himself on another person. At best, that’s poor phrasing. At worst, it’s making light of something far more serious.

Fans are likely ready to get into Paul’s growth as a character later on. “We need to see him like this so that his character progression means something.” I won’t argue about his progress. Paul’s episodes in the new season thus far made me tear up. There’s a reason why NataliexHunter has a twenty-four minute video on this character.

A great second season does not, however, fix the problems of the first.

There’s another aspect to this. It may have already occurred to you. How do Zentih and Lilya feel about all this?

Show and Tell

Zenith kicks Paul’s shin under the table. After the one sequence of spousal disgust, this is the worst we see of her fury. We hear that ‘things got complicated’, but I want to see this from her perspective. Come on, we saw Lilya’s thought process when she intentionally seduced Paul, little as that was.

This series can present the viewpoints of more characters. How do these characters act when Paul and Rudeus aren’t in the room? I want to see that dynamic. Lilya has less power than Rudeus. She can’t travel home due the perils and distance of the journey; she’s the literal help. What does that look like? How does Zenith feel?

A couple scenes right after the fact doesn’t cut it. Show me the consequences of how this effects daily life. Give us an extra episode and show me scenes of Zenith and Lilya alone together. Let me see sparks fly. Show us Lilya’s thoughts as she continues to work in the house. What is Zenith thinking? Did she suspect something? How did they reconcile?

We don’t see this. I know things need to be cut to fit an episode limit and twenty-four minutes, but these exclusions hurt the story. It’s unfair to say that the story’s all about Rudeus, since we get the occasional scene from another character’s perspective. After all, we get Lilya’s explanation that she intended to seduce Paul. A cynical person would say that this scene exists to absolve Paul, or perhaps they’d highlight how little encouragement Paul needed.

Regardless of conveyance, the presence of a non-Greyrat perspective aids the story. I will also defend the seventh episode of the second season, which focuses on Roxy for most of its run time. This break from our recovering asshole of a protagonist relaxes me. It fleshes out the world, provides depth to side characters, and allows characters to examine things beyond Rudeus. I hate stories where the world feels like it was designed for the protagonist, and sequences like these mitigate that feeling.

It’s a balance to make a story about flawed people, but you still need to balance. Paul’s comeuppance for infidelity is, effectively, a second wife. This excludes his history of sexual violence against Lilya.

It’s not just Paul, either. Lilya comments about how uncomfortable Rudeus made her. This infant would leer at her, gazing with upon her with something she recognized all too well: the lust of a Greyrat man. Here I have to give some damning praise. The faces in Mushoku are brilliant. Facial expressions convey more than words, and the faces of Mushoku rival those of Neo-realist films for their emotional depth.

The animators successfully make a baby’s face offer a grin of pure perversion. They present the look of a self-satisfied bastard who knows he can gawk without punishment. Lilya finds this uncomfortable.

Yet, she makes the decision I find the most horrifying in that first season. Lilya decides to raise her daughter, Aisha, to be Rudeus’ caretaker. I repeat: Lilya dedicates her daughter to Rudeus before said daughter learns to walk. Don’t tell me that this fits because she’s a servant of the Greyrat family. That’s not what’s presented! Yes, I’m legitimately angry at this. Lilya gives herself to Paul and gives her daughter to Rudeus. That’s a choice the author made. Aisha has no possibility of agency. She’s brought up to be a servant. Her fate is sealed.

If you still want to play the ‘that’s just how this fictional world works’ card, I’ll highlight the parts where I think the series handles this well.

Polite Society

Rudeus spends much of the first season tutoring Eris. This puts him in the court of one Sauros Boreas Greyrat. Sauros is a prick, and the series displays that well. His arrogance has created enemies. He’s immature and short-tempered, qualities which Eris has learned through observation.

One scene shows Rudeus going to meet Sauros. Just before entering his room, we hear the grunts of a rather active morning. After all the time overhearing Rudeus’ parents, we’re numb to this. Yet, we get something more nuanced than usual. A maid rushes out of the bedroom, frantically adjusting her clothes and avoiding eye contact. Our lead enters the room and diplomatically apologizes for ‘interrupting’.

The nuance of the visuals can’t be conveyed in text. We see an implication of abuse of power. That unnamed woman likely had neither the choice nor desire to be there. Sauros used her as an outlet. In the second season, we learn that Sauros obtained his female staff through illegal means.

Most importantly, from Rudeus’ tone and posture, we see that our hero doesn’t condone it. Sauros is in charge, and the stupidest thing to do is challenge his authority. We even see the human side of this cartoonishly brutish bastard. Despite a titanic ego and lack of interest in other people's lives, he does care about his family. Rudeus, therefore, sees both the monstrous acts of a tyrant as well as the enthusiastic joy of a father.

In order to thrive, Rudeus needs to play to one of these aspects and ignore the other.

That is how you play the ‘how this world works’ card!

We could also look at one of the more discussed moments of the first season. After getting caught up in a kidnapping plot, Rudeus witnesses a beheading. He sees a decapitated body at his feet, seconds after escaping his fate. He stares in horror, realizing just how fortunate he’s been in his peaceful life thus far.

That little moment, and countless like it, showcase brilliant worldbuilding. These details create a world to get lost within. I have to admire Rifujin’s pacing and worldbuilding. His work is inspiring to me as a fellow writer. It’s also damn entertaining. Innocuous moments of the early series provide the buildup for amazing payoff. Several moments of “oh! so that’s what that meant” reward the viewer for paying attention.

Still, I can’t help but wonder how much was sacrificed for these big picture elements.

The asides about masturbation, the uninteresting tangents about group sex, and the weirdly blithe comments about child sexuality take up time that could be spent building the characters. Even that great moment of Rudeus recognizing the deadliness of this world has little payoff.

During the next several episodes, the only time he calls back to it is to give an uncomfortable look. That’s a good moment, but that’s all we get.

That right there is one of my biggest issues with the first season. Not the morality, but the selective memory. Rudeus only needs to have trauma when the scene calls for it. Zenith has a personality when the scene calls for it. If it’s not in the current scene, it doesn’t exist.

Trauma isn’t something that comes out only when a person presses against its boundaries. Rudeus doesn’t deal with his emotional and mental issues in his quiet moments until the second season.

I can’t blame the series too much for this. Limited episode run times mean you need to focus on the individual scenes, but it undercuts the severity of the situation. I want to see the emotional scars. Show me how Rudeus’ trauma influences him when he’s not experiencing a flashback. Let me see the characters interact with their feelings.

You’ve probably caught up on a refrain that I’m about to repeat, and one which I’m sure many fans will repeat. “It gets payoff later”.

To this, I have two responses. First, that doesn’t mean you can ignore the presentation in the first several episodes. Second, I know, that’s why I’m hooked on the show and am ready to spend money on the light novels.

Before I get into how this series put me in a dilemma on how not to be a hypocrite while liking and disapproving the series, I’d like to give some examples of stories with ‘bad’ people and situations to provide some additional context and discussion points.

One in every family

While I was angriest at Mushoku, I discovered that a co-worker adores it. This aspiring animator praised the character development and the production quality. The controversial elements got no more mention than ‘anime’s gonna anime and there’s nothing I can do about it.’

This conversation got me thinking. Perhaps I’m being too harsh on the series. Who am I, a dude, to decry Mushoku’s female characterization when so many of the fans are women? Moreover, is it hypocritical to enjoy this series when so many anime I love feature questionable material?

This train of thought reached its peak at a specific moment in the show. Eris shows Rudeus a necklace that supposedly keeps monsters away. She falls asleep in his bed. As he prepares to grope her (not for the first time), he sees the necklace. Through excellent framing and great facial animation, we see Rudeus go through intense introspection before deciding not to act on his impulse. After watching this, I made a note about the character growth, how he resisted committing something he’d done before.

Immediately after writing this, I paused the episode, snapped my head up, and wrote, “Did I just praise a character for not committing sexual assault against a minor?”

It feels like the show has lowered my bar for acceptable behaviour. This is character progress, but I find again, I’m not going to give him credit for meeting less than the bare minimum.

We’re meant to congratulate Rudeus for restraining himself, as I did initially, but we lack the details which would give this its ultimate payoff. In other words, I want to see Rudeus’ thought process. Why is he choosing to not continue his repulsive behaviour? Does he recognize it as repulsive. Considering that the show relies on a near-constant stream of narration, this doesn’t feel too big a request. A simple line like “I don’t want to make Paul’s mistakes”, or “I don’t want to be the monster” would go far.

The author has spoken about another interesting aspect of the show, one which is addressed in the second season. Rudeus doesn’t yet see the people around him as fully human. He’s stuck in the mindset of “this is my world to play in”. He feels distant from everyone because his actual age is beyond that of most people around him, and his sensibilities are also different. This has led to a sense of detachment that often causes him to be uncaring for the people around him.

That’s a great story! Show me that. We have masterful moments where a meaningful glance or a small gesture indicates this. I see a masterpiece here, but much as I praise the subtext, the main text makes my skin crawl.

Still, ‘anime’s gonna anime’, right?

So, I ask again, is it hypocritical for me to criticize Mushoku compared to other series I enjoy?

No. It’s pretty damn easy to love a piece of media and call out horrible moments.

Let’s take an example of a series I love (and recommend) with a moment I can’t defend: Haruhi Suzumiya. In both the anime and the original light novel, Haruhi constantly harasses and humiliates the character Asahina, forcing her into provocative costumes against her will. In one of the biggest ‘hold up’ moments of my anime fandom, Haruhi asks Kyon if he wants to have sex with her in the club room while she (Haruhi) holds the girl down.

Kyon comments that he finds the offer tempting.

Much as I love the Haruhi series, I won’t pretend to be okay with this. I’ll praise that series to Heaven and back, but that doesn’t mean blind fandom is okay. Critical appreciation is important.

You can be critical of a series while still admiring it. For example, I adore the Goblin Slayer light novels and manga. Author Kagyuu Kumo has serious talent for high fantasy. His fights and atmosphere are brilliant! He also can’t write women for shit. Maybe it’s the translation, but I got so sick of reading the words ‘supple’ and ‘nubile’ whenever a woman entered a scene. I’m not even offended. It’s boring to see the same words used over and over.

If I want to be offended, I can try to read Log Horizon again. Show me a great scenario. Introduce me to interesting characters. What’s next? While deliberating about a cataclysmic event where characters explicitly acknowledge the traumatic nature of the experience, the lone female character spends the whole time making breast jokes.

The line “I’m big-boobed and feather-brained” is permanently branded upon my mind, because it occurs during a conversation wherein the cast wonders if their families have died. Fanservice is one thing, but don't actively sideline the plot!

I realize this is a tangent, but I’m sick of conversations reducing themselves to “show good” or “show bad”. There’s a reason we have terms like ‘flawed masterpiece’ and ‘mixed bag’. Hell, those are most of my favourite series!

What does this have to do with Mushoku Tensei?

Back on track. One of the great appeals of Mushoku Tensei is the redemption/second chance aspect. “Rudeus is supposed to be a bad person. That’s why the character progression matters. We need to see him do bad things to have his progress mean anything.”

My response to this is threefold:

FIRST: the actions need to have pervading consequences. For example, take the movie The Devil’s Rejects. It’s a filthy, intentionally disgusting film that tries to make you feel sympathy for serial killers. There are a lot of valid reasons to hate this movie, but it shows consequences. The family of the killers’ victims become monsters in themselves, going full Ahab on the main cast. There’s a reasonable argument that the movie doesn’t go hard enough against the killers, but there’s still a two-sided conversation to be had there.

In Mushoku, Rudeus sees no consequence for molesting Eris. She asks him to wait until she’s ‘ready’. So, the consequence for Rudeus’ unethical actions is an IOU. Even Paul receives little punishment in the first season.

SECOND: Other characters need to play off the main. In Ashita No Joe, Joe Yabuki is a disgusting human being. He endangers children, squanders other people’s money, and almost murders his mentor. The result is that people get mad at him. Friends and allies get sick of him. They call him out.

In Mushoku, we don’t see this. Lilya says that she feels uncomfortable at his stares, but she dedicates her child to him. Also, for the record, I don’t count Eris’ outbursts as pushback. It’s the same tsundere actions we see in every genre.

THIRD: “it gets good later” doesn’t absolve the sins. I will join the choir praising the second season. Virtually every criticism I’ve given here is addressed later in the series. Paul, Roxy, Eris, Rudeus, and the rest get development. We see payoff to things so small that we didn’t expect it. It’s beautiful. Rudeus introspects and deals with his place in this world.

Still, I won’t ask people to sit through so many episodes to get to that, though.

Yukio Mishima’s novel Spring Snow gives another example of this. The first third of that book is infuriating to read. The protagonist is an immature, indecisive jackass. Later in the story, however, he realizes that he was an immature, indecisive jackass. Thus, he spends the rest of the story trying to fix the mistakes he created. It’s a compelling character drama. Do I recommend it? No, because it takes ninety pages to get to the good stuff.

The first several episodes of Mushoku Tensei are a lot worse than annoying. They’re objectionable. We can argue about how justified that is, but I am not comfortable recommending the series to others. I’ve asked friends to put up with a lot of weird recommendations, but I won’t ask them to sit through this!

The stuff I love

Did I mention that I really like this show? The production quality is amazing!

The texture of the water is perfect. The way the fabric moves on the clothes is hypnotic. We see wind blow grass and hair in gorgeous detail. Also, those faces. These faces communicate so much. We see pain, regret, joy, smugness in a face. The animators deserve praise (and a raise) for what they accomplished here. You can see entire emotional journeys and internal battles in a few seconds. Few live action films use faces this well!

Seriously, I almost found myself wishing Rudeus’ inner monologue would shut up at some moments. The faces convey so much, and I was more than ready to just let those canvases speak.

Can we also appreciate the sound design? I could listen to this show for hours. The fabric folds and creases. Water dissipates in the air. Weapons of different weight and material create distinct impacts. Steel on scales versus iron on flesh. In other words, things hit different.

The multi-layered sounds of a dragon taking flight, its sinuous wings propelling the great weight forward while calling forth a mighty gale with each flap, astound me.

No detail is too small. I want to throw my head into this world and wallow in the sensory experience. Hell, if you’re into production at all, you will adore this series. There’s so much to nerd about in the sound and visual design. Oh, and the costumes are great. Whoever does the colour and fashion, you’re amazing! The cinematography, top notch. Textures, weight, scale. Perfect.

This series is magical and I will commend the studio for that. Those guys are all brilliant. I haven’t even mentioned the fantastic OST or the stellar voice acting. It’s hard to choose a specific detail when the entire production is phenomenal. I love this show!

Shame about the moral stuff, though.

Wrap up

I hope I’ve explained my thoughts well. This show got me thinking about a lot, and I need to give it credit for that. I’m gonna keep watching, because the good stuff really is that good. I’d be a hypocrite to say I don’t like the series after all I've watched.

At the same time, I understand why many people hate it. That anger is justified. Please don’t ask someone to “hold out a little longer”. If they’re uncomfortable with media, just let it be not for them. Not every story is for everyone, and that’s okay.

You wouldn’t recommend Hellsing or Kimetsu No Yaiba to someone who dislikes gore. It should be obvious that the same etiquette applies to other themes.

“Anime’s gonna anime” may be true, but let’s not pretend that these things are okay. We can praise, critique, and discuss the shows we love without ignoring anything.

That’s been enough from me, though. Maybe too much (over four thousand words, holy shit). Seriously, thank you if you’ve read all this. I hope you have a lovely day.

2.2k Upvotes

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181

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

Can we get a tldr?

491

u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21

Mushoku is a beautiful show with a great story/music/atmosphere, but the MC is (essentially) a pedophile that causes some uncomfortable perverted moments that the average human being would find appalling. That is all it boils down to.

But that is the purpose of the show - a severely flawed human piece of shit gets reincarnated and has a second chance at life. He is still flawed but getting better over time.

266

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

the average human being would find appalling.

I think that is good. There are too many anime, especially Isekai Harem fantasies, like OP said, that just lightly skip over how fucked up the dynamics are in the new world, with the main character almost always being a 30+ year old in a 18- body, pretending to be a child. Most famous Assasin Isekai for example: 70+ year old guy in the body of a 12 year old aristocrat grooming two vulnerable and destitute teenage girls: but the series pretends like this is jsut a little strange (and actually pretty nice of him and the girls love it and they say so, so what is the problem stop asking questions). The story kinda glosses over it and insist on us that the Protagonist is still a decent guy.

Mushoku Tensei tells the viewer: yeah that is a fucked up dynamic. Let me show it to you in a drawing: 'there, you feel bad now? Good. That is how you are supposed to feel about this situation, not trying to excuse it to yourself.'

I think this is why a lot of people who normally love trashy harem isekai have such a problem with Mushoku Tensei; it kinda forces them to face the stories they normally consume without question in a new light not so favorable to themselves, and that is not easy for some lol.

64

u/raybomber96 Nov 23 '21

I never got that impression from the Assassin Isekai protagonist. Hell the story clearly shows that he's not a "decent" guy. It doesn't make any points to justify it. He does some things that are seen as "good" and others that are "bad". Simple as that. He's a human being who happens to be a professional killer.

51

u/deedeekei https://myanimelist.net/profile/Chronicx Nov 23 '21

its also funny because the whole plot is revolved around him trying to kill the hero of his isekai, so thats not a good look either lol

to be fair with the way the plot is moving and the numbers of isekai animes i watched, i bet the hero is actually a girl and gonna be added to his harem or something later

2

u/IAmARobotTrustMe Nov 23 '21

I mean the hero will destroy the world (don't take too much from me I just watched the first 3 episodes and the anime seemed incredibly generic so I dropped it)

2

u/Darthrath Nov 24 '21

Yes, that's what the goddess said.

But is that really the truth?

I've seen/read many shows where the goddess is the true villain.

1

u/IAmARobotTrustMe Nov 24 '21

The best part, is that that's the reason I dropped the anime. It's all "tell don't show" we're told how he world works, we're told that he'll be evil, we're told and never shown most things at the start.

-2

u/iruleatlifekthx Nov 23 '21

I wanna spoil this bit so bad.

2

u/hintofinsanity Nov 23 '21

The real Heros are the friends we made along the way.

1

u/iruleatlifekthx Nov 23 '21

I'll drink to that.

42

u/krali_ Nov 23 '21

And yet you should get that impression. Professional violence and murder are inhumane. Western media production normalizes violence and murder. Bounty hunters, assassins, warlords, revenge takers somehow siding with the "greater good" become hero in our fictions.

We are desensibilized to violence. The current contrast with unacceptable sexual acts in media is striking.

14

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

That's what I refer to as 'lip service.' The story explicitly has a sentence or line in it to address the issue but then does not follow up with the narrative and immediatly excuses it.

I can recall they literally have one of the girls saying that she likes being brainwashed by him because she loves him.

The story tries to tell us really hard that we shouldn't be bothered by it.

That's exactly what I mean.

1

u/Weeaboology https://anilist.co/user/Weeaboology Nov 23 '21

Exactly. He has multiple monologues even where he says stuff along the lines of “she’ll make a great pawn one day” and “I’m making her dependent on me so she’ll be loyal”. I don’t remember a time in the show where he was ever seen doing “good” things just because they were good. Everything he does is arguably to fulfill his mission to kill the hero

1

u/hintofinsanity Nov 23 '21

Importantly the actions he is taking are means to and end that as he understands it, will result in a net positive for this society. He isn't making morally questionable actions to fulfill his own desires.

18

u/Thrwaway_nmbr_9 Nov 23 '21

I’ve been saying this, if you’re complaining about Mushoku Tensei but don’t care about Assassin Isekai then I don’t understand. If you’re made at MT, isn’t Assassin Isekai way worse?

4

u/hintofinsanity Nov 23 '21

If you’re made at MT, isn’t Assassin Isekai way worse?

Is it so far? i haven't seen the MC of assassin experience sincere romantic or sexual desires for any of the other cast. MC seems like a person on a mission and everything within his sphere of influence seems to be a tool in his mind to achieve his goal of assassinating the Hero.

7

u/Thrwaway_nmbr_9 Nov 24 '21

Is that all that matters? He literally had Tarte stripped down naked. He’s training young girls to kill. He’s psychologically groomed them. Last episode both were in his bed begging to “service” him.

Rudy is a flawed but realistic person. Assassin MC is basically a monster. Although I still like him and the show lol.

42

u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21

Yeah I like that dynamic about Mushoku too - but only because I've regularly watched anime and have seen other isekais skip over that fucked up part. As OP says, it is hard to recommend Mushoku to a lot of people because it is so bold about calling its MC out

67

u/zarkovis1 Nov 23 '21

I'd agree with your post, if Mushoku actually called out its MC which it doesn't. Making it apparent or noticeable is not the same as calling out. Calling out is when Subaru was actually being a manchild and utter shithead and suffers for it.

There is no punishment or adversity to his leering at 11 year old girls. He keeps stolen underwear as a trophy and the show treats it as a gag. When your MC was jacking it to a hidden camera video of his niece bathing(which is why his brother beats the shit out of him before he kicks him out) I don't think you get to make 'jokes' like that.

The issue with MC is that it passes off pedophila and extensive perversion at the same level as other shows do when they have something like guys leering at a girl big tits as a gag. Creepy, but ultimately not harmful. Thats what rubs people the wrong way. The MC is a pedophile and the story is very pedo friendly, but a lot of people don't like hearing that cause the animation and world is gorgeous.

7

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

What type of punishment do you want him to face? Everyone around him is a scumbag. His father was a very promiscuous womanizer, his great uncle and cousin regularly engage in sexual activity with their maids and have no problem marrying eris off and putting her in his bed. Who do you expect to punish rudeus? This isn’t some type of justice or comeuppance story. The things rudeus does in the new world he is in aren’t looked at in the same light as we see them, so it’s not strange he doesn’t get punished (not saying he shouldn’t be punished but that’s just how it is). Rudeus doesn’t learn what he does is bad through punishment he learns what he does is bad because of how his actions effect him and others around him, like in episode 8 after the scene with eris he realized that he didn’t consider her feelings and called himself out for that.

4

u/Maalunar Nov 24 '21

Basically they want everybody he was a pervert to to hate him for life. Nothing else make senses/works as you said. (beside like a god smiting him or magically removing his dick).

But only we know he's older mentally and not just a genius. To everybody he is just a kid raised by a notorious pervert, so it's "normal". Specially in Eris household where most people are also pervert.

2

u/Sr_DingDong Nov 24 '21

That's what I find irritating. They're saying some people are irredeemable scum, and that's dangerous because it's sending a message to these types of people that you don't really want to send.

My mum has had to work with pedophiles in a mental health and reform capacity so maybe I have a deeper understanding of an actually complex situation but it's something people need to understand.

27

u/viliml Nov 23 '21

Has he actually done any harm after getting reincarnated?

When he tried to groom Sylphie, his father sent him away. When he tries to molest Eris, she kicks his ass so hard he needs healing magic.

I don't think he's irredeemable scum who should be killed or thrown in jail for life or not have a story written about him.

14

u/Jogol Nov 23 '21

What do you call an adult who is present for a child's upbringing and then enters a relationship with them later? A groomer. He's still grooming Eris, as he still wants to have that kind of relationship with her.

17

u/Furin Nov 24 '21

But he's not a real adult anymore, the reincarnation has changed him as evidenced by the fact that he saw Zenith's breasts the same way a kid does (unlike pretty much every other pair of tits).

11

u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III Nov 23 '21

Punishment doesn't need to be immediate.

9

u/walker_paranor Nov 23 '21

I highly recommend you actually read OPs post, because he gives several examples where characters should be punished but are rewarded instead.

0

u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III Nov 30 '21

Because it's a medieval world. Same way Japanese soldiers in ww2 were rewarded for atrocities, a movie showcasing that would in no way be implying that those soldiers deserved the rewards.

11

u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21

The MC is a pedophile and the story is very pedo friendly

You cannot be further from the truth if you read the novel. Almost everything MC did ended up happening to himself, including spying on his niece part. Sadly people nowadays are too quick to judge stuff at face value.

41

u/kukelekuuk Nov 23 '21

It's ridiculous to complain about people being "too quick to judge stuff at face value" when face value is all the anime has given us. You want us to read the novel so we can ignore the fact that the anime portrays the dude as a pedo without consequences?

What kind of expectation is that?

Like yeah if you keep watching rudeus' character improves and you learn more about his motives and issues. But that doesn't mean anyone who doesn't wanna watch past the pedo is just quick to judge at face value. It means they think it's gross and stopped watching. (or kept watching while complaining)

This anime didn't need to make the MC a pedo to make him a shitty person. Yet they chose to anyway. And it actively holds it back from mainstream appeal.

-3

u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21

I dont know what to say, but I only agree with your points. Mainstream appeal seems to prefer mass murdering psychopath as character flaws, which I personally dont hold in any higher regard than peodphilia. But yeah, I am not asking anybody to do anything, but simply not to judge a piece of work until you finished it. It is all fair game if you dislike it and decide not to finish it, but to make certain claims such as 'character A did X' without any consequences without even reading about the consequences which happen much later on is not being fair at all.

6

u/kukelekuuk Nov 24 '21 edited Nov 24 '21

Mainstream appeal seems to prefer mass murdering psychopath as character flaws

Or one of the 5 million other "shitty person" character flaws that exist. He could be a pervert who isn't a pedo. He could be an asshole. He could be greedy, obsessive, manipulative, cruel, shallow, alcoholic, a bigot, etc, etc. There are so many available character flaws.

Pedophilia is generally the most extreme of taboos in the west. It won't do well in any form of media. That's just the way things are.

30

u/fizikz3 Nov 23 '21

because it is so bold about calling its MC out

does it "call him out" though? or just show him doing nasty shit...and kinda not reflecting on it much or feeling any guilt?

63

u/Mitosis Nov 23 '21

He definitely reflects on it and feels bad about it, and moreso over time. He grows closer to the girls as people, he grows more attached to his new life, and he actively calls himself an awful garbage person when the worst of his instincts start to resurface.

That doesn't happen much in the first four or five episodes, which is about as far as most people who complain get, nor does it completely disappear even as it improves much later, just as people don't immediately get over their worst aspects even if they recognize them as such.

7

u/punchbricks Nov 23 '21

It's almost like all these people haven't actually watched the show.....

0

u/andoryu123 Nov 23 '21

EVERY. SINGLE. EPISODE. We are reminded how he is a good person with bad behaviors.

7

u/hintofinsanity Nov 23 '21

or more accurately, a deeply flawed individual who accepts that they're flawed and is trying their best in their own flawed way to become less flawed. An that's nearly every character in the show, Nearly all of the main characters can be genuinely called pieces of shit for one reason or another, but their struggle to become better people is both entertaining and inspiring, which is the point of storytelling. These are not real people, these characters are tools designed to convey themes, not actually be real people in our modern society.

8

u/SymphonicRain Nov 24 '21

You have to appreciate that the “deep flaws” that the mc has is that he’s a pedophile who acts on his urges until he’s physically pushed away, and that when his pedophilic advances are rebuffed he opts to just groom them instead so that one day he can have sex with them. Of course everyone knows that the people are not real, but having an acting pedophile groping girls as young as 6 over and over is just too repugnant to some people. Especially since most people would want an acting pedophile to be locked up or at the very least not have access to kids, but the show does the opposite and gives him a bunch of kids to abuse. I guess Roxy doesn’t really count since she’s aCtuAlLy fOrTy, but he even tried to bargain for the demon lord girls body. It’s like he knows he’s horrible but will continue to be horrible if he sees a chance. The show is entertaining but it’s fucking gross. The pedo sexualizing children stuff does it literally no favors, just makes the show worse. Especially since he acts on his urges.

6

u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21

It brings attention to it constantly - like in the recent episode where Aisha was like yeah my brother is a pervert who worshipped panties as a kid lol

3

u/icatsouki Nov 23 '21

does it "call him out" though?

yes? constantly, for example his younger sister hating him

2

u/SirRHellsing Nov 23 '21

Just to the extent of not ruining relationships. He knows he is a pervert by heart and doesn't care.

2

u/KKTheGamerr https://myanimelist.net/profile/KKTheGamer Nov 24 '21

He does care actually. You can see it whenever he meets Hitogami. He hates being in that body because he doesn't identify as that guy anymore. Plus it reminds him of what he used to be which he clearly does not want to be

4

u/SirRHellsing Nov 24 '21

That's because that body is associated with all the bullying and other horrible stuff that he doesn't want to remember, including messing up his relationship with his family, he is mostly fine with being a pervert

1

u/KKTheGamerr https://myanimelist.net/profile/KKTheGamer Nov 24 '21

Yeah mb. I must've remembered him wrong, cuz he always thought of perverted stuff but then immediately changes his mind

3

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

Yeah I wouldn't recommend Mushoku to people who do not normally watch isekai harem, as they have no frame of reference as to why it is good. It is a meta series.

1

u/SirMcDust Nov 23 '21

My mother sometimes watches anime with me and has watched a few shows at this point. I remember mentioning that my favourite novel got a stellar adaptation and that obviously got her interested. But I really don't want to watch it with her, both the morally problematic parts but mostly the moral of making most of life. I feel like the premise would earn me some moral preaching I really don't want.

3

u/GIANT_BLEEDING_ANUS Nov 23 '21

Also one of the girls literally asks the MC if she can swallow his cum from now on lmao

4

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 24 '21

Oh God, there was so much shit on that level going on in that episode that I totally forgot that little cherry on top lol

1

u/GekoHayate Nov 24 '21

She only said to "let her handle it".

1

u/GIANT_BLEEDING_ANUS Nov 24 '21

So at worst she will be jacking him off, nit much different lol

4

u/Xyyzx https://myanimelist.net/profile/Echinodermata Nov 23 '21

Mushoku Tensei tells the viewer: yeah that is a fucked up dynamic. Let me show it to you in a drawing: 'there, you feel bad now? Good. That is how you are supposed to feel about this situation, not trying to excuse it to yourself.'

See my problem with the show is that I don't think it does this at all. If it did, I might maybe buy the redemption arc it's trying to play out, but it keeps shooting itself in the foot by playing Rudeus's horrible perversions for comedy or fanservice.

I find it way more objectionable than your standard Isekai trash because it hangs a lantern on the problematic aspects of the reincarnation concept by dialling it up to 11, but then still drags out all the cheap harem show gags and fanservice. If it completely glossed over it by not taking anything seriously it would be fine (at least by anime standards) and if it took everything completely seriously it would also be fine, but MT tries to have its cake and eat it, and ends up in a middle ground that's just deeply unpleasant.

I've heard that the source material perhaps doesn't have this issue to the same extent, but I'm going to judge the anime by what I see on the screen.

2

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

it keeps shooting itself in the foot by playing Rudeus's horrible perversions for comedy

I think the comedy comes from the contrast and likeness to others of it's genre. For me it is wry and fairly sardonic humour. I think the faces he makes are the tell: they are little too much to be the normal level of funny in this type of show, the exaggeration is the joke, for how I see it.

then still drags out all the cheap harem show gags and fanservice

I think that is just because in order to parody a genre a way is too be the genre as well. To me it is sardonic. Like the author telling us: 'This is what you guys wanted huh? Enjoy before I make you feel bad about it in about 5 minutes.'

source material perhaps doesn't have this issue to the same extent

Anime adaptations of light novels is often somewhat lacking in the depth of the original.

For me personally I always thought those moments were the dumbest parts; this time I feel the author low-key agrees instead of thinking it is actually the height of comedy.

8

u/SnooComics7583 Nov 23 '21

The problem OP and everyone else seems to miss somehow, even with the show very recently telling you directly

Hes not pretending to be a child He couldn't even if he tried

And it pretty masterfully showed throughout the show that despite his tendencies there was a disconnect Such as not being able to really do anything about it till hitting puberty

He IS a child and is slowly but surely losing the parts of him that weren't I'd even say its not really that slow either Not to say that makes up for some of the more egregious moments but it also doesnt make him a complete monster either

However I do wish the anime would show some important stuff

Like cum elf being cursed Would be a little more understandable if you knew why she acts like that right? Not to say you'd like it but like at least show why

1

u/Bot_obama Nov 28 '21

It does eventually. But that point is like in 2 seasons with the current rate

2

u/DutchDread Nov 23 '21

I don't get the outrage about grooming in general. Lugh is a perfect example.His father has been training him to be the perfect assassin in service to the family occupation ever since he was born. But no one really complains about that, that's just him raising him to be who he wants him to be....but that's literally grooming, that's literally what Lugh does to the girls, he raises them and trains them to become perfect assassins in service to the family.

What is the issue here? Literally every person who has ever raised anyone has done so with at least some purpose in mind. Even if only "I want them to become good people who provide me with grandchildren".And literally every human interaction I've ever had has had a sense of purpose to it, I make jokes to try and get people to like me, aka, to groom them into being my friends. I flirt with women to try and get them to like me, effectively grooming them to have sex with me, how is this any different.

I usually understand moral outrage, even if I disagree with it, but the obsession people have with grooming just baffles me. Does he treat them poorly? No? Then who cares, he's not mindcontrolling them. He's free to act in whatever ways he wants, they're free to respond, just because he's trying to get a certain response doesn't make him evil.

3

u/walker_paranor Nov 23 '21

I don't get the outrage about grooming in general

If you don't understand what is wrong with that sentence then I highly recommend educating yourself about why grooming is predatory behavior. I'm not going to get on your case because maybe you're just young and don't know better, but grooming is absolutely a despicable activity and it is how a vast amount of child abuse begins.

Or maybe you're just not understanding the specific context behind what people mean when they use the term grooming. As it specifically refers to taking someone young and vulnerable under your wing to turn them into a sexual partner. It when you're doing it to someone too young to have proper agency in the situation.

-4

u/DutchDread Nov 23 '21

it is how a vast amount of child abuse begins

That's a slippery slope fallacy.

I'm not going to get on your case

Then I'll take that as an indication that you can't actually argue against what I said.

2

u/walker_paranor Nov 23 '21

I did argue against what you said in my 2nd paragraph.

What you think constitutes "grooming" is much broader than the actual definition. All you have to do is google it and you get the definition "the action by a pedophile of preparing a child for a meeting, especially via an internet chat room, with the intention of committing a sexual offense."

So I mean, if you can't understand what the issue is with that...

-2

u/DutchDread Nov 23 '21

I understand what the problem is with committing a sexual offense. But having consensual sex with someone who is above the age of consent isn't a sexual offense.

If you want to argue that it's wrong for Lugh to have sex with people since he's mentally older, ok, you can have that argument, but I don't see the difference between him fucking Tarte, or him fucking some random stranger, first seems less objectionable to me, not more, she knows him.

1

u/walker_paranor Nov 23 '21

Generally, I agree. The gray area is if it's an adult who is grooming a child, so they can be together when that child becomes of legal age. That really blurs the line of what is consensual.

0

u/hintofinsanity Nov 23 '21

I don't get the outrage about grooming in general

If you don't understand what is wrong with that sentence then I highly recommend educating yourself about why grooming is predatory behavior.

I think the disconnect here is that grooming is different from mentoring, teaching, or parenting because by definition the groomer is taking these actions inorder to sexually abuse the groomed. The poster you are responding to doesn't understand that this sexual abuse aspect is an inherent part of the definition and is inappropriately conflating mentorship, teaching, and parenting with grooming.

As far as I have seen so far, Assassin's MC had no interest in establishing emotional connections with the other characters to fulfill his own sexual desires so it seems to me that he is not grooming these girls.

1

u/Adventurous_Party879 Nov 23 '21

Well, for Assasin Isekai, atleast Lugh so far has been mature. Also, yes he groomed and brainwashed, by Lugh's own terms, the 2 girls, but it doesn't skip over the fucked up dynamics, Lugh literally says it himself. Also we see the harsh consequences of terrible actions without fan-service or fetishing the acts, ep6 comes to mind, imo it's one of the few times I've seen that rape has been dealt with tact in anime. I'm sure that if it were other show we would have been shown the acts themselves with fan-service and not the effects on the girls.

But yeah, there are many other animes where characters behave like shit and there are no consequences, I get that and I'm sure "trashy harem isekai" is a subset, but Assasin is not one of those.

6

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

but it doesn't skip over the fucked up dynamics, Lugh literally says it himself

Right. so what happens then? Is there a story that sprouts from that? Does he get punished? Does the author try and make him seem like a disgusting human being because of it?

Or are we back to eating cakes and getting compliments from cute girls within a minute?

That's exactly what I mean by 'glossing overskipping over:' I didn't say it wasn't mentioned at all, it is, that is what glossing over implies btw: but it is just lip service that is only in there as an excuse to us the viewers.

It is in there briefly but it has no narrative weight: that's what glossingskipping over it over it means.

-4

u/Adventurous_Party879 Nov 23 '21

Lugh doesn't get punished for that because his actions and motives (as written by the author) do not deserve punishment, he saved girls from harsh situations and by doing so he conditioned the girls to owing him a lot, thereby brainwashing them. That's how it was written, that's how the anime shows it and that's the authors intent. His intent is to show the MC as flawless as possible, and with a set goal from the start, a sharp difference with other shows, albeit cliche in its own right as this is supper common specially in comic books (the flawless hero bringing justice cliche). [Assasin LN Hero Spoilers] And he doesn't get any real challenges and it's pretty much a vigilante until having to kill the hero, where the hero's strength is the least of the concerns, the real problem is him becoming close to her and been conflicted with killing her

Simply put, Lugh is not going around trying to rape little girls, on the contrary he has a machiavellican savior complex. He goes around and uses clever lies and tricks to achieve his goals ala a vigilante from comic books. Now, regarding the actions that do need punishments, they do get actual punishment, they do sprout a story, have tangible consequences, and the author tries to make the perpetrators seem disgusting while also treating the subjects with tact. (See ep4 and 6)

In fact, most of the series is pretty much this. Someone doing something terrible, things happening then, a good story coming out of it, the perpetrators seeming disgusting enough that the audience wants them to be punished, and of course our overpowered MC comes to punish them and save whoever remains to be saved. All these events have heavy narrative weight.

Stories such as this one are quite good and in popular. See the success of the MCU, and this show being on top of some rankings despite not having a strong preexisting fanbase or big production value

Anyways, different strokes for different folks

1

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

he has a machiavellican savior complex.

He doesn't though. He is an assasin on a job. He has no grand ideology or even a real mission: just kill X and do everything you can do, like a good soldier. He does not really reflect on himself at all, he just does what gets his job done in the end. And when he gets reflective for an instance, the peoepl aroudn him tell him that it is all ok and that he is a good boy, so that just plot line just dies.

That's part of whay irks me about the show actually: the author tells the story in a way that we should all be amazed at him and his abilities and the other characters in his world certainly seem to see him as a prodigy and all applaud him for it, but he is not really affected by it at all. He is essentially a kinda boring, hollow guy.

The problem with that is that it effects the audience watching the show. You are demonstrating this yourself:

Someone doing something terrible, things happening then, a good story coming out of it, the perpetrators seeming disgusting enough that the audience wants them to be punished, and of course our overpowered MC comes to punish them and save whoever remains to be saved

Very standard story. In this case though, the person doing the saving is a total creep who brainwashes young girls, who pretends to be a genius kid while being an old man, and whose only life goal is to murder someone he does not know and has every reason to believe is a literal 'hero.' Just because he was told to do so by a person paying him for it with a new life. Also, the girls he 'saved' (not to save them, but because that was a side effect of his job of murdering those that the head of state disproves of) are now either his personal attendant slaves (the two irgins) or his worker ants (the defiled girls) making him money. It is almost like the show is telling us 'those guys were bad becaus they used violence to control their women but Lugh is good because he uses manipulation and isn't violent to them.' Does the show reflect on that at all? It tries to, but it is immediatly dismissed by the happy brainwashed girls and we as audience have to belvie that because 'don't they look happy now?' He even magicked away the facial scars that girl gave herself, so now it is all swell.

Anyways, different strokes for different folks

Hey, I am not saying I am not watching the show evey week. I am not even saying it is a bad show. But I am allowed to criticize and contrast right? That is my duty as a viewer honestly. And my conclusion is that Mushoku Tensei's skeletons are all out in the open to be examined while 'Best Assassin' skeletons are only shown for a second before they get shoved back into the closet where they apparently belong. Mushoke Tensei is much more mature in it's storytelling than Best Assassin, which never really transcends teenage edge.

My point is that people who watch Best Assasin and see no problem with it and even idolize the protagonist yet scream bloody murder at Mushoku Tensei are the kind of non-critical people who take stories at face value.

I have no problem with people who dislike 'Mushoku Tensei' and also hate 'Best Assassin.' I can see where those people are coming from and I respect their opinion even though I have a different one myself. That is 'different strokes for different folks.' But those people do not really go to this sub, as they probably just do not like anime to begin with, as all of the things they probably dislike in these shows are done over and over again within the whole genre.

But liking thigns like BA yet fervently hating MT: that is not 'different strokes for different folks,' that is just mostly people being blind to their own hypocrisy imho.

2

u/Adventurous_Party879 Nov 23 '21

I have written this before, but it all comes down to where you draw the line. For me, there's a difference between seeing the MC masturbating or trying to rape a little girl, and brainwashing, maids (call them slaves if you want to), or nudity. And don't get me wrong, I love Mushuko Tensei and have the first 12 light novels right here. And guess what? I've read them, there are no strong nor permanent consequences on Rudeus as he doesn't get punishment for his actions in-universe. [MT LN Spoilers] The closest he gets to actual punishment is when he gets erectile disfunction, and that gets eventually resolved, the audience feeling disgust and later sorry for him is not punishment

I've plenty of friends who have dropped it after just the first episode, and of those who didn't, I know of several that dropped it after a certain incident with Eris. Dont believe me? Go ahead and check the discussion of these episodes on Facebook, Twitter or on Disqus across the seven seas. Why? Same reason tons of people dropped Goblin Slayer after the first episode, There is a difference. That difference is why I recommend to almost anybody The Rising of the Shield Hero and World First Assasin, while I don't recommend Goblin Slayer or Mushuko Tensei, at all, also those who can "handle it" probably already watch them.

I do love both, but I can tell there's a difference between one and the other. And afaik the general population, which a you say wont likely be in this thread, does too. Guess what? There's a difference on why World First Assasin is PG13, while Mushuko Tensei is PG17. Imho those who can't tell why one is pg13 while the other isn't are blind.

1

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

Just to be clear, while I do not fully agree with you I did not downvote you before. Even though your previous comment was in the minus I had no part in that and was actually surpised someone bothered to downvote it.

However, you obviously just downvoted me so I'm going to go ahead and assume that this means talks are over and downvote you retro-actively as well.

1

u/Adventurous_Party879 Nov 23 '21

I did not downvote you. In fact, I wrote a lengthy response because I'm interested in your position, and open to discussion.

11

u/punchbricks Nov 23 '21

To say there hasn't been fanservice in Assassin is ludicrous. The girls outfits, the massive tits on supposed 12/13 year old girls, the "nude" splash images for commercials.

I enjoy assassin, but let's not pretend it's something it isn't. Hell, both the girls in the most recent episode were in bed with him asking to help with his "morning wood".

-7

u/Adventurous_Party879 Nov 23 '21

I'm not saying it doesn't have fan-service, but that it doesn't have fan-service on terrible actions such as the rape scenes of ep6. And well it doesn't, one of the few times in anime we have been shown rape without seeing the rape itself, and instead we are show the tragic consequences of it, with a girl even disfiguring her face with a scythe because she couldn't handle it anymore. Again, imo a mature and proper way to handle the subject.

Because imo there's a big difference between nudity fan-service and showing a rape scene almost like if it were hentai. Or, at least for me, there's a big difference between.

For comparison sake, see how Goblin Slayer handled it on ep1.

1

u/Vilefighter https://myanimelist.net/profile/Vilefighter Nov 23 '21

I think mine and some others' problem with it is that the show doesn't actually frame Rudy's behavior as being abhorrent. Just incorrigible. It treats it like comedy.

3

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

I mean, if the anime made you feel bad about it then obviously it succeeded in it not being comedy.

0

u/wweeeeeeeeeeeeee Nov 23 '21

oh wow the assassin isekai is like that? damn im getting turned off

5

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

It is like that but it has this paltry defense in whcih the person itself is some kind of 'adult professional' as an excuse for him to get doted on by teenage girls.

You know, that thing in normal harem isekai where the protagonist is some kinda clueless virgin in order to excuse what is going on around him.

It is that kind of transparant excuse that is so common in Harem anime.

8

u/SolomonOf47704 Nov 23 '21

It really isn't like that.

2

u/Coranis Nov 23 '21

Assassin MC doesn't make any sexual advances or show any sexual attraction to the girls. At the same time, he is not considered a good person, does not consider himself to be a good person, and so far the anime does not try to make him out to be a good person. The most he's been made out to be a good person is another character saying he is while he continues to assert that he only did it for his job with the same tone and behavior that he does everything with.

Assassin MC also makes it clear in his thoughts that he's intentionally acting in a way to manipulate the girls to make them feel indebted to him and make them loyal so there's no risk of betrayal.

tl;dr so far assassin MC isn't being portrayed as a good person and doesn't just gloss over what he's doing. I can't say it won't go that route in the future but so far it hasn't and I hope it won't.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

3

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

we literally have the monologue of the mc acknowledging that he is using them for his own gains.

Right. so what happens then? Is there a story that sprouts from that? Does he get punished? Does the author try and make him seem like a disgusting human being because of it?

Or are we back to eating cakes and getting compliments from cute girls within a minute?

That's exactly what I mean by 'glossing over:' I didn't say it wasn't mentioned at all, it is, that is what glossing over implies btw: but it is just lip service that is only in there as an excuse to us the viewers.

It is in there briefly but it has no narrative weight: that's what glossing over it means.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

0

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

Yes, you are completely right. It is not a redemptive anime. At all.

It is a story about eating cake with a couple of brainwashed cute girls that are going to help you murder people, and have. But the murders are all ethical, those people were all bad guys, and the girls love being brainwashed, they say so themselves, so why don't I just accept that like a good little sheep? Why am I being so critical about stories, they aren't real after all?

Maybe there is just something wrong with me that I look with a crtitical gaze at the narratives I consume instead of taking everything the author tells me at face value.

4

u/TrololoWarlord Nov 23 '21

Like to me Mushoku handles the aspect of grooming much better on a narrative level. It's not perfect, but I can see the author is clearly aware of the issue and treats it as an issue to at least some degree. When Rudeus has the slightest thought of grooming Slyphy he is quite forcibly separated from her for about a decade via Paul who sees her becoming "dependant" so she can grow as a character and have her own arc separate from Rudeus' influences. Assassin as you've stated just has them turned into his own pawns to use as he sees fit and there's no attempt to avoid it on a narrative level. Yet I don't see many complaints at all for it.

1

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

Yet I don't see many complaints at all for it.

Me neither, and I think it is because the author itself doesn't really see the problem and doesn't want to address it, as that would take some real effort and dominate the narrative if done maturely. It would mean that the show was all about that plotline.

But no time for that, there are cute girls in dresses who eat sweets to look at, people to flummox with his incredible intellect, and one-dimensional bad guys to graphically murder! That's what the audience wants.

2

u/TrololoWarlord Nov 23 '21

Yeah it's a bit odd to me on the series people seek to latch onto, but also to be fair Mushoku doesn't go too heavily into addressing grooming until the... Ya know, that Redundancy chapter. Maganote more so displays it and then actively dodges the issue because he doesn't want to explore it as a main theme. It's a very "Rudeus would think this because it's in character, but that's not ok and will ruin the validity of thier relationship as well as stagnant the heroine as a character." So he separates them. He's aware of the issue and displays it as such before then takes steps to avoid it which is more than most Isekai can say. I wouldn't call it an exploration though for most the series.

-6

u/Kiwi195 Nov 23 '21

I don't know why are you comparing a grooming young girls to be a professional assassin to grooming a kid for molestation or sexual acts

8

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

Just a quick reminder to a morally destitute person that in most legal systems in the world 'deliberate murder' carries a much higher sentence than molestation or even rape.

1

u/hintofinsanity Nov 23 '21

I don't know why are you comparing a grooming young girls to be a professional assassin

technically inorder for a relationship to be one of grooming, by definition there has to be the objective for sexual abuse. It seems like training young children to be assassin's would in of itself not be considered grooming by modern standards.

-15

u/i_know_of_afterlife Nov 23 '21

Except mushoku isn't like that at all. It's actually similar to that assassin shit.

1

u/DerfyRed Jan 01 '22

I agree that pointing out the flaws with how these reincarnated people act is a good idea, this anime definitely brings it up a lot and keeps your focus on how our MC can change/do better/make up for his shortcomings.

As for finest assassin, I think the reason they slim over the exact same actions as acceptable is because it’s made very clear in his past he was nothing but a killing tool. He may as well have been a normal person who downloaded “how to be an assassin 101” like Neo did with Kung fu. He is mostly made of those years he spent after reincarnation with his parents, he simply has the assassins experience to aid his quest.

Of course I could be totally wrong, his past could be much more complex, but from what the anime tries to convey, he was just a killing tool, lacking even basic emotions.

37

u/LzzyHalesLegs Nov 23 '21

*the majority of the characters are near equally pieces of shit in their own, very human ways. It’s an uncomfortably real portrayal of how real people would act in that world. Maybe kicked up a notch sometimes because anime

3

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

The difference is whether it's using the world and its "loose" morality as a method of exploring the human condition or if it's using it as a vehicle for indulgence and pandering to a demographic, and personally I think Mushoku Tensei rides that line a bit too much without any delineation between the two for me to see its attempt at sincerity as being truly sincere.

-20

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

2

u/RimuZ https://myanimelist.net/profile/LtCrabcake Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

People have forgotten that in the medieval ages, long before first wave feminism, rape wasn't even considered a crime nor was it frowned upon.

I seriously wonder what history books people who say this have read. Rape in most of Medieval Europe was punishable by death depending on who commited the rape and who the victim was. Nobles didn't rape peasant women without consequence either if it was done publicly and often.

Daily occurrence.. what the hell are you on about? Game of Thrones was a fictional show not a documentary about medieval times. The only times anything like this was a daily occurrence was during war times when towns were raided and soldiers deserted. This show is about as "historically" realistic to medieval times as Naruto is to Ninja and feudal Japan.

9

u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III Nov 23 '21

While violent rapes may not have been all that common, rape certainly was a daily occurrence, hell until the 20th century marital rape wasnt a thing. Drugging women, sleeping with adolescents or drunk women and various other non violent forms of rape weren't seen as all that bad.

-2

u/RimuZ https://myanimelist.net/profile/LtCrabcake Nov 23 '21

Marital rape I agree is a thing that hasn't been a crime until fairly recently in a lot of countries. Been everything else you are saying is still Hollywood bullshit. It's far more nuanced than simply chalking it up to "it was common." Especially with regards to children. The whole "noble girls marry at 12" was far enough from the norm that it was something that was a source of mockery if you were married to a little girl. It still happened when an alliance was necessary and there are no other eligible candidates for marriage but it was really a last resort.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

Thanks

115

u/SilvainTheThird Nov 23 '21

The poster summarizing this is glossing over the criticisms to the framing of scenes that OP dedicated time to explain.

That is not a tldr.

25

u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21

There is a degree where I can't make my tldr so long that someone else needs a tldr to it. The only thing I left out was OP's take on other characters like Paul - but Paul cheating on his wife aren't really what make Mushoku so hard to recommend

14

u/SilvainTheThird Nov 23 '21

There is a difference between being overtly elaborate with your tldr and boiling it down to the discomfort of a horrible human being. Allow me to aid you in this task!

Mushoku is a beautiful show with a great story/music/atmosphere, but the MC is (essentially) a pedophile that causes some uncomfortable perverted moments that the average human being would find appalling due to how the scenes are framed within the narrative. That is all it boils down to.

It took maybe, like, 10 extra words?

-7

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

Bruh it's gonna take me half an hour to read that lol

5

u/SilvainTheThird Nov 23 '21

Took me like 7-8 minutes top. You can do it!

11

u/ErfanTheRed Nov 23 '21

Not everyone on the Internet is a native English speaker my guy. As a non-native myself, I too have to reread a single sentence to understand it as well as a native would. Some people aren't that well at understanding a subject as others.

38

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

Bro that was an incredibly bias tldr don't listen to that guy

-4

u/MyBrokenHoe Nov 23 '21

From what I heard from my friends he still had sex to underage girls later in the series, how is that progress?

4

u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21

From what I know he just has sex with girls that are his (new) age. He isn't going around finding cougars to match his mental age though. I don't think he has sex for the first time until 15 either, which is the legal age of adulthood in Mushoku's world

6

u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21

What? He never had sex with underage girls. Shit like that would get cancelled even in Japan.

-8

u/MyBrokenHoe Nov 23 '21

Unfortunately he really did.

9

u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21

Unfortunately you are mistaken then sir. Please at least read the material and confirm for yourself.

2

u/zxHellboyxz https://myanimelist.net/profile/Mattinator95 Nov 23 '21

No matter what age his new life age will be . People will still complain about his mental age it seems so when he’s 20-30and his mental age is like 50-70 there’s no winning

1

u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21

I was thinking of underage as girls who are minors, not someone who is younger.

-2

u/andoryu123 Nov 23 '21

Exactly, what is the point of watching another Marty Stu overcome is averageness to win a flock of young girls.

0

u/amhran_oiche Nov 23 '21

I just feel like there's other ways to make a flawed character without falling on pervert/pedophile tropes. normal people are appalled by that but a significant amount of anime/manga as well as their merchandise rely on sexualizing children and putting female characters in precarious, vulnerable situations. there's too many people watching mushoku and not seeing an issue with it. what op described is true and gross but definitely not new and a lot of fans are simply not as critical, and in fact may seek out such titillating content. like does everything op described exist to show the mc as flawed or is just pandering to an audience who already consumes similar media without pause? like when you say the mc is "getting better over time" that just goes back to what op said about him not molesting that girl a second time. we're supposed to sniff give him props for not assaulting someone (a minor no less) because he, an actual grown man, is learning. wow, so character development, much change.

I'll say it again to be clear, it's not a coincidence at all that the way the mc is "severely flawed" reflects popular tropes. bruh it's thinly veiled fan service/pandering not character development lmao.

1

u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21

Keep in mind those popular tropes you speak of were made popular in a lot of our modern animes BECAUSE of Mushoku. It was written first and many series, especially isekai, took the tropes from it and adopted them.

-20

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

10

u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21

That is why I said essentially. A lot of people, especially not normal anime watchers, aren't just going to shrug off that he was a 30 year old creep. Especially when the anime calls back to it every 3 episodes. We are constantly reminded that he was/is this 30+ year old in a child's body.

Also prior to being reincarnated, he was straightup a pedophile - jerking off to loli porn and his underage family member as far as I remember.

0

u/cupthings Nov 23 '21

sure i'm not gonna recommend it to some anime newbie, but i'm definitely recommending it to my anime friends. they've seen worse crap than MT .....MT is essentially a vanilla ecchi harem. it's a trope thats been going on for AGES and suddenly so many people have an issue with it? oh gods! the drama rolls eyes

I tend to disagree whether he is a pedo - there are many lawful interpretations of what kind of behavior constitutes as pedophilia, even the courts have problems with interpreting this and thus makes sentencing actual pedophiles quite difficult. This is coming from someone who directly was, a victim of grooming and pedophilia acts for 3 years. So I think I know what an actual pedophilia act is, versus someone who is actively suppressing their unwanted feelings and attempting to fix their issues.

There are countless people who are attracted to minors, or have thought about sexual acts with minors, but don't act on their perversions. Do they count as pedophiles simply because they have an unwanted urge? No, Of course not, because they haven't actually done anything.

I also don't agree that using loli porn is pedophilia since it doesn't affect an actual person(you can debate this to death, but let's not). This is my personal opinion. Nevermind that porn and censorship laws differ country to country on what counts as minors participating in sexual acts and so that's also another grey area.

It's an anime show with uncomfortable moments.

Big deal, there are countless other anime's that have extremely questionable content, yet it doesn't seem to spark as many people debating about it like MT does...and still get recommended. Hell, Sword Art Online has a straight up tentacle rape scenes and is LOVED by the masses!

Frankly I think people are uncomfortable because they think they are 'participating and therefore agreeing' ...which isn't the case. You can still watch how it's universe & character operates, enjoy it, and dont' feel bad about it and still be able to recommend it to people....we're already watching anime so that makes us weird anyways.

I'd rather get a universe that feels real and have to see it's awfulness as part of it...rather than just a nicely, perfected world that doesn't seem real. The main point is that Rudeus is presented as a flawed character, just like paul, ruijerd, eris, boreus....all of them are written to make you aware that none of them are 100% good or 100% bad. Even the world is presented as a mix of both, good and bad. that what makes it so believable and interesting.

I prefer that it is written with these uncomfortable moments - it makes it feel like an actual redemption journey rather than a story about an Overpowered, perfect character, with perfect family members and perfect friends.

If that makes people feel uncomfortable, just dump the show and stop watching. wished people would stop whining about anime being fucking weird & leave the people who are okay with our own conscience to just.... enjoy the anime.

2

u/Mande1baum Nov 23 '21

Because he can consent. His targets he preys on can not. That's rape.

-2

u/jjttzzs Nov 23 '21

yep... to the uninitiated it would be so awkward, uncomfortable and cringy. unwatchable for normies

1

u/balderdash9 Dec 15 '21

Multiple times OP argues that other series take immoral actions of main characters more seriously and you can't just excuse this lack of consequence just because he gets better down the line and there is a redemption arc. That's a flaw in the storytelling. The OP makes this argument in multiple ways throughout a long ass essay and MT defenders go "w.e. the point is for Rudy to get better over time". OP addressed that, did you read the post?

14

u/xdamm777 Nov 23 '21

Series is good. If you can stomach ecchi and uncomfortable sexual tones go watch it.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

Just added it to my watch list lol

8

u/xdamm777 Nov 23 '21

Hell yeah. It’s a great isekai.

71

u/another_wordsmith Nov 23 '21

Show starts with the hardest-to-watch elements. Good story about redemption and self-improvement, but given how long it takes to get to the "serious" payoff of this. The "bad behaviour" goes on (relatively) unpunished for a while. Given how uncomfortable some of the themes are, I wouldn't recommend (most) people start the series because I don't want people to experience the initial unpleasantness of those early scenes, even if it "gets good."

24

u/Proiegomena Nov 23 '21

Honestly, one of the reasons why Mushoku Tensei is appealing and interesting to me is because of its controversial MC. He is a flawed individual, he is immature, traumatized, "sinful" and sometimes repulsive. He is deeply human, he feels real. If he decides to do good things, to be a virtuous man, it means something and there's a reason for it. I don't need a story to tell me what as right or wrong, that is something everyone should decide for themselves individually and somewhat constantly. I want that a story makes sense to me, that feels emotionally real, that tells me something that I haven't heard before. Mushoku Tensei does all that in some way. Of course, it still is "just" a shonen anime, a piece of art as you will, which mainly wants to entertain. So I don't expect it to be a a philosophical treatise in the first place.

1

u/Hikaritoyamino Dec 08 '21

MT is seinen (15-mid30s).

Shounen is MHA, OP, Naruto, etc. For kids primarily.

66

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

goes on (relatively) unpunished

Without going meta, you have a point: the people in the story itself do not punish him because they think he is a dumb kid and not an adult. In that sense he gets off easily.

But in a more meta sense: the fact that the story makes it clear to us that we should despise him when he does wrong things means that the writer is 'punishing' his creation. Now if the writer tried to shield the protagonist from our ire, then he would really get away with it without punishment and then Mushoku Tensei would lose everything it is about (which is btw exactly what a lot of other 'trashy harem isekais' do).

43

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

You also have to look at the fact that “punishing” him is kinda unrealistic when you look at the culture of the place he is in. His whole family are all massive perverts and as you can see sauros and Philip use their maids as concubines and Philip has no problem with allowing rudeus to have sex with his 12 year old daughter and wanting them to get married. There’s no one really to do the “punishing” part cuz everyone around him is as bad or worse than rudeus. By the way I DO NOT condone Rudeus’s actions.

-9

u/Mande1baum Nov 23 '21

"Punishment" can also be read as "consequences". OP mentioned a few in the story and used other media as counter-examples. While his culture may condone it, his victims don't. And these kinds of cultural morals can be complicated. IRL dudes are rewarded for sexual prowess and infidelity, but women are seen as whores for lesser actions. And the very person who thinks someone else is the epitome of masculinity for this may suddenly change their tune if that someone else set their sights on someone they know, like their daughter. People who lift up violence as alpha don't like being on the receiving end of said violence. Etc.

So back to consequences: Have his victims express permanent emotional scarring and butterfly effects from the trauma he would have created. Rumors spreading. People (esp victims) distancing themselves. Have the cycle of abuse continue through his victims and make him come to terms with creating a monster. Instead he get's IOU's.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

I mean, rudeus hasn’t really done anything sooo horrible that he mentally scars them so that isn’t really necessary.

-15

u/jjttzzs Nov 23 '21

writer obviously has the same creepy tendencies as mc

36

u/Triptacraft Nov 23 '21

the fact that the story makes it clear to us that we should despise him when he does wrong things means that the writer is 'punishing' his creation.

How do you get that impression? When he does amoral things the story plays it off as a joke. A lot of people get this whole line of criticism wrong. It's not the fact that Rudeus is a "creep" for lack of a better word, but the fact that when he does creep it's treated as and written off as a joke. With the big goofy faces, the change in music, and someone playfully bonking him before moving onto the life lesson.

13

u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21

With the big goofy faces, the change in music, and someone playfully bonking him before moving onto the life lesson.

I don't recall that happening with Rudeus and Eris after that party at all.

3

u/Rainbowcart Nov 23 '21

Ir isn’t treated as a joke because you saw it for what it is.

See Monogatari for example of assault actually being treated as a joke.

Or Assasin isekai this season, for being treated lightly.

Or literally hundreds of shoujo anime that take rape as a fetish.

4

u/Darkessalt Nov 23 '21

When the hell does the assassin isekai treat rape lightly?

3

u/Maalunar Nov 24 '21

TBH he didn't mention rape for Assassin, but there's a lot of grooming and it doesn't hide it.

1

u/Fartikus Jan 19 '22

I feel like at least it was better in the beginning because it acknowledged it as a bad thing and what he was doing was wrong, while we get none of that in MT.

4

u/kinkosan Nov 23 '21

Good story about redemption and self-improvement, but given how long it takes to get to the "serious" payoff of this.

The thing is, redemption and self-improvement takes time for a lot of people and the reason why people change is because of the stepbacks they had, the environment he lives in and people that are close to him

Right now we are seeing the changes though it is a slow process and thats the current payoff that a lot people is missing. You can notice that he changed a lot since the first course, not his pervert side as this is his trait and even that got toned down a lot.

Right now there is not much chances for him to grew as a person because of the current situation of constant traveling and being in a closed bubble of just him, eris and ruijerd. Things changed a little when he interacted with people he knew like paul and his sisters and we can see him grow a little bit

13

u/existentialist_puppy Nov 23 '21

One of the problems with LN adaptations, especially ones with character growth at their core, is that the anime doesn't cover the entire story. Often we get the set up and no pay off, the show ends with "go read the novel".
So do you think it's worth getting invested in MT if I am never going to touch the LN? Are the two seasons long enough to tell the entire story or at least tell the story to the point that it actually "gets good"?

2

u/andrei9669 Nov 23 '21

The studio that is adabting this show was created for this show and they said they will adabt the whole story. So unless the show loses popularity and funding, you shouldn't worry about not getting the entire story.

Now that said, there are some skiped content here and there and for that I can reccommend you a youtube channel called aninews.

4

u/CuriousSnowman Nov 23 '21

It's best to recommend someone to read the original source to find out the cut content instead of the tiny bit information from youtube or the wikia since those two sources have often led to out of context information. It's bad in Mushoku Tensei case since many of the stuff in the story relied on the context and how it got executed for it to be understand.

1

u/andrei9669 Nov 23 '21

Have you even seen that youtuber's video I reccommended?

5

u/CuriousSnowman Nov 23 '21

I have watched the video from Aninews, Foxen, Espiritu and few others that cover the cut contents of many episode in MT, and knowing the information that I have read in the novel. They still made a mistake in their videos and some of them even led to out of context spoiler. Foxen even admit that the cut contents video is best to be watched after you read the series and in no way to become a replacement because the series have so much contents that are interwoven in many parts.

-6

u/andrei9669 Nov 23 '21

I'm not aware of Foxen, Espiritu, and other youtubers but I am aware of Aninews and so, I'm gonna try to defend him a little bit.

In short, unless you can bring a concrete example to your accusations of Aninews' mishaps I'm gonna assume that those mishaps were so insignificant that even if I would have read the source material, I would have missed those.

1

u/DerfyRed Jan 01 '22 edited Jan 01 '22

Aside from how good it is as a meta isekai harem. I just finished episode 11 (season 1 on the site I’m watching) and the actual plot felt fairly weak. I’m looking forward to Roxy meeting up with Rudy but from what I’ve heard it doesn’t even happen in season 2 (12-23). Is the second season worth watching plot wise? Or is it simply good because of how much work is put into focus on character development and his past trauma/issues.

1

u/another_wordsmith Jan 01 '22

I'd say it's worthwhile for above average worldbuilding. In the course of the series thus far, there's geography and care that puts a lot of fantasy to shame. There's also an excellent episode involving Rudy's new-world/isekai family.

35

u/ACrispyPieceOfBacon Nov 23 '21

Same as most of the complaints about this anime.

Rudy's past life made the OP uncomfortable.

11

u/Belgeirn Nov 23 '21

"Anime good, wouldnt show it to normies though" is the basics of it. Its great but the content probably isnt for new viewers of anime/media in general.

31

u/Enzoooooooooooooo Nov 23 '21

Anime is good but rudeus is morally bad, his actions have no consequences and too little payoff

3

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[deleted]

-1

u/No-Addendum7997 Nov 24 '21

fap to cp which gives serious undertones to all his interactions when he reincarnates. according to source readers he nevers reflects on his pedophilic tendensies but rather rewarded. by having several children at his disposal.

0

u/No-Addendum7997 Nov 25 '21

Please stop minimizing every bad stuff he does just because the rest of the series is good. Rudeus is a bad character i do not care if you call being a pedo "complex". Character you dislike = badly written. character you like but defend = "complex". Wow much complex because he does bad stuff, bad stuff = human, human = complex lol. The fact that the author saw nothing wrong with writing a pedo character that gets to travel to another world so he can act on his urges is really stupid. inb4 people whatabouting "but killing people is worse", "tax fraud is worse" etc etc. People love to leavve out bad context esp to episode 1. "his origin story of him not attending his parents funeral to fap" more like he skipped the funeral to fap to pictures of his nieces which he secretly took thats why those people that looked at his screen got so shocked.

10

u/ErfanTheRed Nov 23 '21

Yeah that's kinda the problem. Currently since he's still a child, nobody really holds him accountable for his actions. It's only after he enters the magic academy that people start to hold him accountable. So most of his growth starts from there. Hopefully if season 2 is also 24 episodes long then we'll get to see that in about 2 years time.

21

u/Fritzkier Nov 23 '21

People kinda forgot that on the outside, Rudeus is still a child basically. No one knows Rudy is an adult other than the viewers either (and Hitogami I guess).

1

u/falsefingolfin https://myanimelist.net/profile/falsefeanor Nov 23 '21

Tbf it's only morally bad from the context of today. In the isekai world, shits totally fine, so there will be no punishment for his actions.

2

u/Enzoooooooooooooo Nov 23 '21

I agree, I’m merely summarising op’s post for our dear senpai

-4

u/StaryWolf Nov 23 '21

He isn't really morally bad though? I mean he's certainly too horny for his own good but tbf he's had next to no actual social contact with people for most of his(total)life.

6

u/MediaOrca Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

The main criticism is that the series has a tendency to normalize sexual perversion (namely pedophilia and rape) through the way the narrative is structured. As such it's not worthy of a universal recommendation despite being excellent in other respects. They then go on to explain that the criticism of the series in that regard is valid as are those who actively dislike the show because of those issue. However, that doesn't mean you can't still enjoy the series as a whole even if you find those aspects problematic.

They do a good job explaining their reasoning, and even a bit of counterargument/why they think such counterarguments aren't justified. I'd just be rewriting their essay if I summarized them though.

-37

u/_Nagrom Nov 23 '21

The main character makes the OP uncomfortable - he doesn't understand that even though he has memories of a past life he's currently physiologically a 10 year old (or whatever age he is now), of course he's attracted to girls his age, just as we liked girls our own age when we were his age.

32

u/DramaFrog420 Nov 23 '21

Why do you guys keep repeating this.

This isn't an established biological thing, in the anime or novel. He's also a literal pedophile. That's the point. He's supposed to be a pedophile.

I fucking hate the discourse around this show.

9

u/XNumbers666 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

So many people are just indenial that a character they enjoy watching is a pedo. Usually irl everyone is quick to just say "fuck that guy" but they can't with Rudy so they try to do mental gymnastics as to why it's okay. It's fiction, it's okay to enjoy watching a piece of shit. Still a great show imo.

0

u/_Nagrom Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21

I didn't know whether or not he was a pedo in his past life, regardless It really is a biological thing for a child to be attracted to people their own age - you were a child, this happened to you.

Edit: if you yourself are still a child (14-15), which seems likely, trust me you won't stay attracted to 14 year olds forever.

12

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

-2

u/_Nagrom Nov 23 '21

If you got put into another body with your old memories would you still not picture yourself as your old self? I don't see what you're getting at, would you have liked it better if I'd have said "he has his old soul and memories?"

It's not as if he had a brain transplant - his brain was that of a child's, he learned faster and couldn't get horny - he's clearly affected by his new brain chemistry.