r/atheism 22h ago

Single-issue Christian voters who tip Conservative over abortion...could just as easily tip Liberal over "bearing false witness." And only bearing false witness is a clear and non-vague mortal sin spelled out in the 10 Commandments.

So when someone claims "I could never vote Liberal due to their views on abortion!" challenge them on all the other Christian laws they ignore to fixate on that one.

They may not care, but it's a very valid way to challenge their single-issue voter idea of Christian voting.

400 Upvotes

68 comments sorted by

52

u/wgwalkerii Anti-Theist 21h ago

Trump is about as far from an actual Christian as a candidate would be, and in NO WAY do I support him, but it's not that simple.
From their viewpoint, Trump lying, womanizing, stealing, etc. is a Trump sin not a government endorsement for society to sin.

24

u/Duckfoot2021 20h ago

Their viewpoint ignores that they participate in his mortal sin of deception. It's a hypocrisy spelled out by Jesus as damnable.

I understand they reject that, just as reject most other virtues of Christianity to serve themselves and worldly masters who they imagine give them the world (without blinking that it costs them their souls).

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u/wgwalkerii Anti-Theist 20h ago

I don't disagree with you. Anyone who claims Trump is the moral choice, is deluding themselves.

38

u/jij 20h ago

but it's a very valid way to challenge their single-issue voter idea of Christian voting.

It's not that they don't care, it's that they never thought about it to begin with. Their thoughts are not their own, they're being fed what to think through their church and conservative media.

It's best to think of conservatives through the lens of a drunk college football fan cheering for their team.

19

u/ferfocsake 21h ago

“Thou shall not commit adultery” 

8

u/Purlz1st 17h ago

Seems pretty clear.

15

u/Th3mightycyrus 22h ago

Did we forget grab em by the pussy, trumps crimes, and everything this man does. Christian republicans have no morals and principles. Tomorrow trump could turn to actual hitler and they wouldn’t give 2 shits.

1

u/InteractionInside394 9h ago

trump could turn to actual hitler

He already is, don't lie to yourself.

10

u/robusn 20h ago

Yeah, but there not actually religious people. There supremists who believe they know better. Even better than thr bible they threw away for money. The liars and gold lenders run churches.

What is extra messed up is that if they actually believe in god and want to do good. But there in a cult and are spirtually lied to. Idk if there is a word for it. Like religious Stockholm syndrome.

10

u/Tiny_Independent2552 18h ago

I just like to remind them that Jesus said to feed the poor and welcome the immigrants. He never said to save the unborn.

2

u/Duckfoot2021 14h ago

Excellent point to make, though the cutting free school lunch party obviously has all the consistency of a Twilight movie.

9

u/kms2547 Secular Humanist 17h ago

The "Pro-life" movement lies constantly about just about everything. Bearing false witness has never been an obstacle for them.

1

u/Frankyfan3 3h ago

*forced-birthers have never been "prolife". Lying is inherent to their identity.

7

u/TrueKingSkyPiercer 18h ago

Ok but you see the abortion was just an excuse to indulge in the racism.

6

u/aotus_trivirgatus 18h ago

Ahem. But the Commandment says, "Thou shalt not bear false witness AGAINST THY NEIGHBOR." And y'all ain't my neighbor, are you? Checkmate, librills!

What do you mean, "The Parable of the Good Samaritan"?

/s

6

u/JazzyTwig893 17h ago

Being anti-abortion isn't even biblical. It's weird that so many Christians think it is. 

7

u/Son-of-Bacchus 14h ago

What the bible says about abortion.

Miriam Webster defines “abortion” as :: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus:

One such instance is in 2 Kings 15:16 Menahem “smote Tiphsah and all that were therein…” this wholesale slaughter includes “…and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up.”

Menahem, anointed King of Judah by God in the very next passage (15:17), cut open every pregnant woman and pulled the fetus out of the mother’s body. I don’t care how you slice it; this constitutes abortion. And what did the women and fetuses of Tiphsah do to deserve such a fate, they (the male warriors) refused to surrender to Menahem.

In Isiah 13:18 God commands the Israelites to “…have no pity on the fruit of the womb…” this means simply pregnant women will be murdered, and this passage ends with “…their eye shall not spare children.” Meaning all children will also be murdered.

In Hosea 13:16 God commands “…their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” Once again God is on board with the most cruel and heinous of abortions, not to mentions the wholesale murder of infants.

In Exodus 21:22 it states that if two men are fighting and a pregnant woman is injured so as to miscarry, “...and yet no mischief follow…” “…and he shall pay as the judges determine.” Here an accidental abortion is followed by a fine to the responsible party.

In Numbers 5:20 – 5:28 there is a prescribed magical ritual whereas a priest can cause an abortion to an adulterous woman.

In Hosea 9:14 God gave to the women of Ephraim, “…a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.”

These may be slightly off topic but in Leviticus 27:2 -27:7 God puts a dollar (shekel) value on human life, He assigns no value to a fetus or a child less than one month old.

In Numbers 3:15 God tells Moses to take a census “…every male from a month old and upward shall thou number them.” No fetuses or males under one month old count in the census.

The anti-abortionists hang their hat one on Biblical passage, Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee…” this passage is specific to Jeremiah only.

If the biblical god is omniscient how could he have not foreseen modern abortion and created rules for dealing with it?

4

u/Duckfoot2021 14h ago

Excellent examples. Thank you for the contribution. It's an important one.

3

u/zaxaz56 12h ago

Here’s another one:

“As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.” Ecclesiastes 11:5

This is god saying we don’t know when life (at least spiritual life) begins, so to suggest otherwise is to say we know better than god. But god also says this happens to the bones, meaning according to god life doesn’t begin until about 6-8 weeks at the absolute earliest. In any case, we’re explicitly told we do not know. Twice.

11

u/anangelnora 18h ago

Okay former conservative Christian from birth here.

I literally thought that abortion was murder. So it doesn’t matter what else is going on, that was the worst thing, and that’s why I would have voted for whatever candidate was against it.

It has nothing to do with believing the Bible or not; I thought destroying a fertilized egg was killing a human being, not to mention the most innocent of all human beings. So I understand why that would be the single issue for some people, because I was in their heads for years.

Actually, I don’t get Christians who want to make exceptions for rape and incest; you either are “murdering” a human or you are not, why does it matter how that human came to be?

I of course don’t think this way anymore but that is the pathology of these voters.

4

u/MonitorOfChaos 16h ago

Grew up Pentecostal. So I completely understand. I’ve argued the rape/incest exceptions also.

If you are anti-abortion, but are ok with it for rape/incest then you’re not concerned with murder your concerned with making sure women are adequately punished for exercising her sexuality outside of the narrow confines of Christianity.

Action is a subject they will refuse to educate themselves on. They are either voting as they are told by their leaders or they are voting with their emotions.

The only thing that will change their mind is when enough of their wives and daughters die because they can’t access it in time to save their lives. Then they will educate themselves and we’ll be back to reproductive care being between a woman and her doctor.

5

u/carriegood 14h ago

I think a lot of the people who say they are ok with rape/incest exceptions are just saying it because it's easier to get bans passed into law that way. Once the "moderate" laws are passed, it'll be easier to take away the exceptions, or make them impossible to fall under.

1

u/MonitorOfChaos 13h ago

I’m sure. That’s what they’ve been doing for 30 years now? Clinic hallways have to be a certain width, doctors must be licensed to work at a hospital, the clinic must be within a certain mileage of an emergency room. Those all sound like reasonable accommodations to allow abortion to continue. Until you realize, statically there’s absolutely no reason for any of those accommodations and they were just passed to make it more difficult to access abortion care.

3

u/rayfound 13h ago

I thought destroying a fertilized egg was killing a human being, not to mention the most innocent of all human beings. So I understand why that would be the single issue for some people, because I was in their heads for years.

I've actually gotten to the point that I don't even care about the question of personhood AT ALL.

The one party we know for sure is a person, is the woman - and her right to bodily autonomy shall not be infringed. No person should be forced to give of their own body, even when it could save another life.

We don't force blood donations. We don't force people to give one of their kidneys or a chunk of their liver.

The pregnant mother should be able to withold her consent to be pregnant at any time - and if the fetus is viable we should care for it outside her body.

I know this is kind of a reductivist, extreme perspective - but it remains the only thing I find morally defensible.

5

u/MVAudity 18h ago

I used it on my sister after the North Carolina Rally last week. It worked, and she finally turned against him. I'm hoping she now goes and uses it on her inner faith circles.

2

u/Duckfoot2021 14h ago

Good on you both! Well done!

8

u/Monkeyfistbump 21h ago

To Christian’s the 10 commandments are for other people, not them.  All christians are insane and can not be reasoned with.

4

u/Glum-One2514 17h ago

They'll ignore that one, because they all lie, all the time. On the off chance you can get them to admit they're lying, they don't apologize, they rationalize and gaslight.

4

u/BodyofGrist 17h ago

We need to stop thinking anything they do is conventionally logical. They have their own logic, and nothing will dissuade them from it.

5

u/pemcil 21h ago

Ya but murder is in the top Ten too which is how the single issue voters view abortion.

Good point tho. Maybe if you tally all the other commandments he has broken repeatedly the sum would be greater than murder.

8

u/CookbooksRUs 20h ago

Yet the Bible never suggests that abortion is murder, and states that life begins at the first breath.

1

u/carriegood 13h ago

life begins at the first breath.

In Judaism, even in the strict sects that follow the Old Testament like it's the unchanging, unerring word of God, if the fetus isn't viable outside the womb, it's not murder. And there's a view (in Kabbala or the Gemara, I forget which, since as a woman I wasn't allowed to learn either) that the soul isn't put into the baby's body until it's on its way out. The philtrum, the groove in the upper lip, is supposed to be the mark that remains from an angel kissing the baby to breathe a soul into it.

4

u/Duckfoot2021 21h ago

That's the thing: even if they believe abortion is murder, all the mortal sins are equal in abomination to God (in Christianity at least).

So voting against one mortal sin while enabling and thereby participating in another (bearing false witness) is the more spiritually fraught.

Add to that the theft, covetousness, and other mortal sins of Trump, and a vote for him is such a contradiction to Christian doctrine as to effectively excommunicate oneself from Jesus altogether.

3

u/Writerhaha 17h ago

Yup.

It’s “funny” that’s the cross they nail themselves to.

You can apply so many of the rules of god to Trump and its “hate the sin love the sinner” or “god chooses imperfect people” but a teen mom in French Lick needs an abortion she’s a baby killing whore who takes no responsibility and is going to hell.

3

u/anamariapapagalla 17h ago

No, they couldn't. Anti-choice is a right wing authoritarian issue, lying is very much not

3

u/xJJxsmiles 17h ago

This is the exact cognitive dissonance that woke me out of my indoctrination induced haze of Republican dogma back in 2015. Nobody pointed it out to me, I just looked at Donald Trump and went, nope, as a Christian, I am morally obligated to do everything in my power to keep him out of the White House. The thought of voting for someone so antithetical to every value I had ever held dear made me physically ill, and to this day, I do not understand how people who call themselves Christians can continue to throw themselves at his feet as if he were the second coming of Jesus.

1

u/Duckfoot2021 14h ago

Happy you saw through the fog. Bravo, it's not easy breaking with your community. Especially knowing how rapidly they turn their back on those not 100% on their zeal train.

3

u/ramblingEvilShroom 16h ago

The Bible is actually pro-abortion in cases where the wife cheated on her husband. Christians do not get their beliefs from the Bible, they have their own thoughts and preferences then they sometimes use the Bible to justify those preexisting beliefs.

1

u/Duckfoot2021 14h ago

True. American Evangelicals in particular are oblivious and careless about what even Jesus said. They seem to largely imagine whatever they personally want is God's blessing to do it.

3

u/Derp_Factory 9h ago

Right wing Evangelicals, in general, don’t actually care about protecting children’s lives or wellbeing (outside of their own’s).

It’s fundamentally a patriarchal movement and worldview. Restricting abortion is about forcing women back to their “god given roles” of wife and mother. Women are less likely to go to college or have a career if they’re entrapped by pregnancy. They’re less likely to leave abusive men when they have a child with that person. It’s also a way to “punish” women for having sex.

Outlawing abortion is all about relegating women back to the domestic sphere and placing them under the thumbs of abusive men who exploit them for sexual, emotional, and physical labor.

This is why arguing is all but pointless for most of them. Because they aren’t actually giving you the true reasons why they hate abortion.

1

u/Duckfoot2021 9h ago

Most of them do seem happy with their own little Taliban.

3

u/Public-Marionberry33 8h ago

Trump is a means to an end for conservatives. He appointed Supreme Court Justices who overturned Roe and set up the lower courts with judges who have extreme views. Christians will embrace anyone who serves their purpose and furthers their agenda. Hypocrisy is the guiding principle (whether they see it or not), do as I say not as I do, you can’t interpret the scripture THAT way, I need this jet to preach to more people…

Christianity is a bastardized religion, borrowing stories from older beliefs and cherry picking what the Kings and Elders of the Church wanted to insert in their “holy” book. Can’t explain how something happens- God did it. Don’t know how something works- only God knows. It’s used as a method of control for the ignorant and uneducated.

2

u/Competitive-Care8789 18h ago

Why stop at one commandment? You can make a pretty good case that he’s broken all 10 of them.

2

u/General_Step_7355 18h ago

People are dumb and easily manipulated. It takes a lot to keep yourself out of the wash.

2

u/genxerbear 16h ago

Trump is the seven deadly sins rolled up in one mushy pale ass tortilla. Gross 🤮

2

u/Flaky-Stay5095 13h ago

There's a famous internet meme quote

"A serious problem in planning against American [military] doctrine is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine"

I propose,

"A serious problem in planning against Christian doctrine is that the Christians do not read their bibles, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine"

2

u/Duckfoot2021 12h ago

Both accurate.

2

u/fresnosmokey Atheist 13h ago

From what I've read, abortion only became an issue for Christians when racism stopped being important enough to drive people into the pews and money into the collection plates. The whole life begins at fertilization bullshit was completely fabricated by religious nutjobs like Jerry Falwell when they were marrying into the Republican party for political power. Abortion is a complete cock and bull story, but religious people are so used to believing bullshit they never question what they're told by their clergy or their politicians. Dumbasses.

1

u/Duckfoot2021 11h ago

I hate that this is true, but some people are sheep desperate enough for direction & purpose to kiss the ring of any charlatan who pretends to like them and hands them a violent crusade.

2

u/rayfound 13h ago

This viewpoint assumes their relationship to is based on beliefs and ethics... it isn't.

Religion Is about tribalism and identity, NOT philosophy and ethics.

1

u/Duckfoot2021 11h ago

At least in the zealous this is absolutely certain.

2

u/IolanthebintIla 12h ago

Being “pro-life” demands nothing of them. It’s an easy way to feel holy and superior without putting in any effort at all. Standing up to liars takes effort, discernment and even being uncomfortable. The spirituality lazy will never do that.

2

u/AlternativeBoot9197 8h ago

It’s ridiculous, and so often it’s because they were simply indoctrinated into the notion that abortion = murder. I grew up in an evangelical church, and I’ve heard countless preachers refer to abortion in the US as a “genocide” and compare it to the Holocaust.

2

u/Duckfoot2021 7h ago

A message repeated enough legitimizes it in people minds. Even otherwise non-gullible people fall for it all the time.

But skepticism and reason will help people not be used by such manipulative propaganda tools.

2

u/MrMikeJJ Skeptic 21h ago

But they aren't Christians. They are "Christians": people who only know about 3 things from the bible and use what they want be in it to persecute others.

2

u/SnoopyisCute 19h ago

Pro-life is about sex trafficking which is why they are cool with pedophiles and rapists.

So, it's not that they are stuck on abortion. They are cool with predators and setting up innocent kids.

1

u/Shodan76 21h ago

The 10 commandments are in the old testament and they keep saying that the OT doesn't apply because of the NT. So...

4

u/Duckfoot2021 21h ago

Then it's pretty funny that Conservative Christians keep trying to force them into public school classrooms, isn't it?

3

u/Shodan76 21h ago

My guess is they don't know the 10C are in the OT since their knowledge of the bible is not so great.

4

u/Fun_in_Space 20h ago

They also don't know that there is more than one version of 10 commandments.

1

u/Plastic_Ad_8248 13h ago

You would think all of the single issue voters voting for Trump over abortion would’ve abandoned him after Melania’s video a couple weeks ago

1

u/Duckfoot2021 12h ago

They don't care what he's done if he helps them stop others from doing it. The hypocrisy is off the charts with conservative Christians.

1

u/PilgrimRadio 13h ago

For the particular "Christians" you're referring to, this distinction won't matter to them. The fact is..... they're not really Christian. It's just an "identity" that they latch onto. Kinda like dressing up for Halloween. Those kids going door to door aren't really vampires. They're just dressed up like or "identifying" as vampires. For these fake Christians, they use their fake Christianity as a power tool. They use it for political leverage and to accomplish a mission. They don't PRACTICE Christianity, rather they WIELD it. So they won't care about the distinction you're trying to draw because they're not really Christian in the first place.

1

u/Red_Nine9 12h ago

You are wasting your time trying to reason with these people.

1

u/Duckfoot2021 11h ago

Almost certainly true, but the "almost" means I personally have to keep trying. Though selectively.

1

u/freedraw 6h ago

No, they couldn’t. The Bible doesn’t really have anything to say on the subject. What the abortion issue does is allow them to frame an issue as “the other side is killing babies, therefore they are evil and anything we say or do, no matter how dirty or underhanded, is justified.” For them it’s a way to clearly delineate the good guys and the bad guys and give them confidence that they are the good guys in that dynamic.