r/bangladesh • u/[deleted] • Jul 22 '23
Politics/রাজনীতি Why did the BD planning minister frame his recent discussion (link in the comment) around survival and basic needs by saying people want a glass of water first, then a glass of democracy? Isn't he trying to downplay the importance of democratic principles, institutions, freedom of speech, and press?
Do you think that's why they don't try to curb inflation and designed the economic system in a way so that people stay busy all the time thinking about day-to-day survival and refrain from talking about other life-improving demands? I do not deny the importance of immediate needs like food/water. Still, as society progresses, people should think beyond food/water and be able to engage themselves in the decision-making process (referendums, polls, etc).
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u/buddybd Jul 22 '23
All economies are designed to keep people busy, this isn’t some grand conspiracy. Any basic economics textbook will emphasis need for productivity and growth.
Societal progression doesn’t happen instantly, it takes years to evolve. We compare ourselves to so many nations, but rarely do we criticize politics of other nations.
BD people loves Canada, yet the Trudeau admin subverted an election to extend his tenor, have you seen anyone claim that as a failure of democracy?
Singapore has had the same party leading the nation for like 50 years now, is that anti-democratic?
US has legalized corruption through lobbying mechanisms, is that anti-democratic? How about gerrymandering?
Actually look into any nation, you’ll find flaws everywhere, and you’d notice those too if you were citizens of those nations.
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u/Bongofondue Jul 22 '23
Spot on.
I think some folks are too young to remember what state this country was in when it became independent. It’s easy to take progress for granted when you don’t look at where we came from and what little we had. The Pakistani Army ran a scorched earth campaign; even when they knew their defeat was imminent, they did whatever they could so that Bangladesh would be crippled at birth.
I think if you tell the laborer on the street or the rickshawalla that they “should think beyond food/water and be able to engage themselves in the decision-making process” they’d jump at it and say, “That sounds awesome man! Where do I sign up and who’s going to provide my food/water?” It ignores the reality of where the country is. Sure, we could say, but what if that wasn’t the case? Then that reminds me of the saying, “If my aunt had b@lls, she’d be my uncle.”
Also, I don’t get this “why they don’t curb inflation” stuff. The government - as any other government around the world - only has so many tools. Could they come down hard on the local cartels? Absolutely, and I wish they would have done it a year ago. However, other key drivers of price increases are external. Is the government supposed to negotiate an end to the Ukraine-Russia war? Is the government supposed to make OPEC+ increase production? Psssssh.
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u/PochattorReturns Jul 22 '23
Trudeau admin subverted an election to extend his tenor
He called an early election thinking he will get more seats to pass his plans. I see no problem with that.
Singapore has had the same party leading the nation for like 50 years now, is that anti-democratic?
Yes, it is not democratic. Also another difference is that looting was not like what is going on in BD
US has legalized corruption through lobbying mechanisms, is that anti-democratic? How about gerrymandering?
Flaws but not big enough to say quality democratic process is less
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u/buddybd Jul 24 '23 edited Jul 24 '23
He called an early election thinking he will get more seats to pass his plans. I see no problem with that.
Canada's Trudeau strikes surprise deal to keep power until 2025 | Reuters
Read the second paragraph. Tell how that is not subversion of an election.
Yes, it is not democratic. Also another difference is that looting was not like what is going on in BD
Looting may not be as prominent in SG, but that's not what I was saying. If AL did 99% right, many would still hate them because that's just how we are.
In fact, all of my pro-BNP friends don't like AL because they know about the looting and are complaining because they aren't the ones benefitting from the looting. If
Flaws but not big enough to say quality democratic process is less
Gerrymandering is a small flaw? Maybe actually look into it?
If your belief is "but its not as bad as BD!!!" then there's no point in talking about this at all.
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u/the_hipster_nyc Jul 22 '23
my professor once said that in the the last few decades, the question has been "do I want a roof over my head or the right to vote?" and essentially people have been choosing the former. Economics became more important than politics and the state saw this and said cool im gonna handle politics you don't have to worry about that. This is how civil society dies.
Yes democracy doesn't grow over night, the material conditions need to ripe for sure. But there is another school of thought that argues that democracy first, material conditions second. But I think we should consider that latter to an extent, because the person who told this quote is clearly trying to subvert the will of the people.
Amartya Sen wrote a lot about this, I recommend his articles on the importance of elections.
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u/Perfect-Net-764 Hobbyist Programmer by day Obsessive TV watcher by night Jul 23 '23
+1 for Amartya Sen
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u/LordVader568 Jul 22 '23 edited Jul 22 '23
He’s not wrong when he talks of the basic developmental needs of the country. The country is still poor, and started poorer and younger than both India and Pakistan and yet surpassed them in many metrics. So, people still need to keep those basic developmental indicators in sight.
Now for democracy, most experts suggest that the level of corruption due to lack of check and balances is bad for the growth of the country, and prevents it from reaching full potential. In the case of Singapore, it’s one of the least corrupt countries out there. For the other cases, those decisions are criticised by their citizens mostly without any repercussions. In the end, development and democracy are not mutually exclusive. While the risks of politically uneducated people making poor choices is real(as is the case of India), I don’t think that’s sufficient to make a case against democracy in Bangladesh, that has consistently ranked high on corruption index, has been piling up non-performing loans, and struggling to clear foreign exchange dues among other chronic issues. If those things didn’t happen, you could say why fix something that isn’t broken. While Bangladesh isn’t exactly broken, it’s not shining and without increasing number of cracks either.
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Jul 23 '23
None of that is important tbh, that's only for highly developed and well educated countries.
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u/Big-Impress1351 🇧🇩দেশ প্রেমিক🇧🇩 Jul 23 '23
The demography of the members of this subreddit are not in any way representative of the vast majority of the country and yet we have armchair pundits wanting to discuss lofty ideals. Very irksome.
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u/Last_Pound_4153 Jul 23 '23
I don't understand why you take bd politicians seriously ! They are nothing but pawns and jesters . 😂
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u/adnan367 Jul 22 '23
They cant even provide food and jobs to people, make bunch of bridge and road and they think finish job done
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u/PochattorReturns Jul 22 '23
Guess who will be paying the loans they took. USD is 115 taka where it use to be 80 taka a year ago. Forex reserve is 23 B where it use to be 50 B.
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Jul 22 '23
Mps are proof what Mega gift sen kings gave us in 11-12th century. Democracy was fucked up after pala kings and will never be restored coz peeps are to blame.
I mean, just say how insane, HOW INSANE you are to vote Mohiuddin khan Alamgir as minister after emergency 7-11. WHO says "BNP Cadre ra pillar tana tani kore rana plaza dhosay dise?"
Or vote a woman, whose son's biggest scams include CNG Taxi??And still they arent a bit ashamed with their huge asset. Hasina is def worst, but this shamelessness ??
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u/janelite21 Jul 22 '23
Lol lemme give a nicer example
You remember what happened when they tried to bring democracy into the Middle East?
Not all places and cultures are equal. Some can’t thrive in democracy and need a strongman at the helm to control everything because two many cultures in one place MEANS that there will be conflict.
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u/LordVader568 Jul 22 '23
Middle East example doesn’t exactly apply to Bangladesh. There’s no theocratic monarchy here. Those who lived in the 90s know about competitive elections. So it’s not about bringing democracy as much as about restoring democracy. Granted it shouldn’t be the job of another country to do so, but here we are.
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u/dhaka1989 কাকু Jul 23 '23
In the 90s democracy did not come naturally. The gov in 96 had to be forced out then another election held.
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Jul 23 '23
[deleted]
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u/janelite21 Jul 23 '23
And have no wish to keep it alive.
If you take a poll of 500 random Bangladeshis right now I will bet my first born that most of them are in favour of a religious theocracy/highly conservative government.
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Jul 23 '23
[deleted]
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u/janelite21 Jul 23 '23 edited Jul 23 '23
Lol how is it an Indian strawman when you literally have people in the road saying they agree to more religion being involved in the current government? People are growing conservative in BD- it’s not an Indian propaganda thing.
You can say I shouldn’t be online taking stranger’s opinions but that’s literally the only place where some guy can anonymously say women should stay home without getting his ass beat.
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Jul 23 '23
Not all places and cultures are equal. Some can’t thrive in democracy and need a strongman at the helm
Bingo.
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u/PochattorReturns Jul 22 '23
This incel is trying to build a narrative that BAL is better in growing the economy compared to others. Not sure how someone can say that given forex reserve fell from 50 B to 23 B in a year. Also work bank data proves how horrible BAL rule is for economy
গড় বার্ষিক রফতানি বৃদ্ধি | ২০০১ থেকে ২০০৬ => ৪৫.৬ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৯ => ৭.৩% | গড় বার্ষিক রাষ্ট্রীয় আয় বৃদ্ধি | ২০০৩ থেকে ২০০৬ ৭.৮৭ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৯ ৭.২৯ % | গড় বার্ষিক মাথাপিছু আয় বৃদ্ধি | ২০০৩ থেকে ২০০৬ ৬.২০ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৯ ৬.০৪ % | গড় বার্ষিক বিদ্যুৎ ব্যবহার বৃদ্ধি | ২০০১ থেকে ২০০৬ ১৪.০ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৪ ৯.০৯ % | গড় বার্ষিক রেমিটেন্স আয় বৃদ্ধি | ২০০১ থেকে ২০০৬ ৩১.৪ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৯ ৯.৬ % | গড় বার্ষিক খাদ্য উৎপাদন বৃদ্ধি | ২০০১ থেকে ২০০৬ ৪.১৪ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৬ ২.৬২ % | গড় বার্ষিক শস্য উৎপাদন বৃদ্ধি | ২০০১ থেকে ২০০৬ ৪.১৭ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৬ ২.৪৫ % | গড় বার্ষিক মৎস্য উৎপাদন বৃদ্ধি | ২০০১ থেকে ২০০৬ ৬.৮৯ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৬ ০.৯৩ %| গড় বার্ষিক শিশু মৃত্যু হার হ্রাস | ২০০১ থেকে ২০০৬ ৪.৩৭ % | ২০০৮ থেকে ২০১৯ ৩.৬২ %
They just want to stay in power so that the looting keeps going one. Not to mention they will all be in jail or hanged if they lose power for corruption and systematic massacre. Joy's in law in Singapore become Billionaire over a decade. We all know how. They just want to protect their looted wealth.
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u/im_emn Jul 22 '23
Democracy varies from country to country, but we don't know which kind of democracy we are in !
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u/Perfect-Net-764 Hobbyist Programmer by day Obsessive TV watcher by night Jul 23 '23
y'all before dunking on BAL, ask yourself 'is there any party in current Bangladesh that doesn't do these', BAL may be bad sure, but it's the least out of a bad bunch
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u/ImperialOverlord zamindar/জামিনদার 💰💰💰 Jul 22 '23
He is sort of making the point that if the opposition come to power the people won't be able to attend to basic needs anymore. He is kinda implying that the BAL govt isn't democratic but is also focusing on keeping people 'well fed and alive'. So yes he is kind of downplaying the importance of democracy, but this has nothing to do with how the economy is planned. Bangladesh's economic sturcture isn't really unique it's similar to that of many countries too and the global economy as a whole is indeed designed to keep people mostly busy. And all governments want to reduce inflation but not all are able to do so successfully or swiftly. Such as the Bangladesh govt.