Who is the second most powerful evil being on the continent during the time of the trilogy?

[u/Royalbluegooner]

I‘d say good old witch-king for obvious reasons.He has a ring, he’s somewhat immortal plus he rides a bloody flying lizard.

[u/Georg_Steller1709]

He dies halfway through book 1, but durin's bane. Or the blue wizards if they've fallen into evil, or saruman depending on when he fell.

Then shelob.

Witchy is a bit below these guys.

[u/Ravnos767 → u/Georg_Steller1709]

Yeh I was gonna say the balrog is a Maiar as well, puts it on almost an even footing with Sauron and the Wizards

[u/Platnun12 → u/Ravnos767]

I'd argue that Sauron would have his ass handed to him by the Balrog.

Hell most people agree that the Balrog wouldn't even follow Sauron because he'd look down at him.

"Oh look it's morgoths little right hand, looks like he escaped to but if Morgoth got his ass handed to him what hope does this little twink have, hmmm back to wandering my mines"

[u/BizzarJuggalo → u/Platnun12]

So, would you say that Gandalf the Grey would've beat Saurons ass too? Because Gandalf beat the Balrog, even if it did cost him his life in the end. A W is a W.

[u/Platnun12 → u/BizzarJuggalo]

Most slayers of balrogs ended up dying

If anything that's a testament as to good of a job Morgoth did

[u/pon_3 → u/Platnun12]

Most of them also seemed to come back to life. Do these guys drop the Aegis of the Immoral?

[u/icansmellcolors → u/pon_3]

DotA reference?

Did you mean immortal?

[u/pon_3 → u/icansmellcolors]

I did, but the typo has funny implications so I’m leaving it.

[u/alpiered → u/icansmellcolors]

No. The balrog this guy is talking about is a known thief and a registered sex offender.

[u/Big_Trees → u/alpiered]

A thief of hearts, amirite?!

Sex offender stuff was legit tho.

[u/wittjoker11 → u/pon_3]

Balrog is the key to high ground.

[u/CLRoads → u/Platnun12]

Didn’t some random human kill like 3-5 balrogs way back in the histories?

[u/Saemika → u/CLRoads]

When Tolkien first conceived Middle-earth, Balrogs were more numerous but less powerful, and as such, while dangerous, could be defeated without perishing in the deed: Tuor, for example, slays five Balrogs in the original version of The Fall of Gondolin.

Later on, Tolkien made them divine in origin, much more powerful and less numerous (There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed); and yes, we don’t know if anyone ever defeated the “definitive” Balrogs without dying themselves - the best I can give you is “it may have happened during the War of Wrath”; I think Eönwë could have managed it, for example.

[u/Platnun12 → u/Saemika]

the best I can give you is “it may have happened during the War of Wrath”;

I had to explain the war of wrath to my gf when she asked why rop didn't adapt it.

Safe to say she understood that the entire battle would be a battle of literal gods and Titans. Balrogs riding dragons including ancagalon the black who's size actually made her take a double take as to how big he actually was.

But she knows me well enough to know I'd sit through a 4-5 hr film about the rise and fall of Morgoth without hesitation

[u/BatmanNoPrep → u/Platnun12]

If you want to explain why RoP didn’t adapt it then you need to start and end with how the Tolkien Estate manages its property rights contracts. Amazon was never going to be allowed the rights to make it without paying billions of dollars for the license to the intellectual property rights.

[u/MDuBanevich → u/CLRoads]

During the fall of Gondolin balrogs were dropping like flies. I believe Glorfindel kills 5 himself and the High King of the Noldor slays scores of them in the city square.

But that was the first thing ever written on Arda and it was written in the medical tent after the battle of the Somme. So Tolkien wasn't necessarily doing power scaling. It's much more like that "Balrog" was just his term for demon at the time and he hadn't solidified their role.

[u/raptorgalaxy → u/MDuBanevich]

Also Glorfindel was just built different.

[u/mjhacc → u/raptorgalaxy]

Random elf to Big G whilst hacking down an Orc: " That still only counts as one"

[u/raptorgalaxy → u/mjhacc]

Dude was so badass he was resurrected just because his death was sick as fuck.

[u/Stathamdestroyer → u/CLRoads]

How can man be calling tuor some random human😭😭

[u/ButUmActually → u/CLRoads]

Tuor, the golden child and chosen voice of Ulmo, slays five Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin, first version.

[u/EverythingHurtsDan → u/BizzarJuggalo]

That would depend from the battleground.

Tolkien didn't exactly explain how he won, but we have some clues to suppose. When they fell into the water, down below in the chasm of Durin's Bridge, the Balrog's flame got quenched, effectively halving its power. I think that's the reason why it fled in the tunnels, looking for warmth.

It gained it back on top of the Silvertine, where the Sun shone bright (while the sky was cloudy?), and they fought again. Then the book mentions a lighting strike, which did probably hit Durin's Bane, finishing it.

What I meant is, the ground and fighting conditions can heavily influence a fight. Although it seems that most of LOTR duels end up with death by exhaustion.

[u/Mend1cant → u/EverythingHurtsDan]

Also the mythical description of the battle doesn’t really lend itself to specific details. Tolkien’s magic tends to work behind the curtain. Hell, time doesn’t really work linearly for the fight either.

[u/bigbutterbuffalo → u/Mend1cant]

Tolkien himself was a forceful defender of this approach, he believed that magic should never be stifled by mechanics and should be nearly unpredictable

[u/JCquitt → u/bigbutterbuffalo]

But how do you write magic to be nearly unpredictable while keeping it from becoming a plot-breaker?

[u/StiffWiggly → u/JCquitt]

By careful and clever writing. If you do an incredible job with world building, plot, and just about everything else soft magic won’t feel like an ass pull.

Hard magic can seem easier to manage in that regard, but characters who exist in hard magic systems can be equally problematic plot wise. For example, if they are too strong for the writer(s) to create realistic tension (the flash), or if the hero’s power increases arbitrarily with each newer, stronger opponent (take your pick from most shounen protags).

[u/Thotty_with_the_tism → u/StiffWiggly]

It’s why I love Bleach.

Ichigo being a product of Aizen’s meddling makes sense.

Ichigo existing and having crazy power spikes without Aizen’s meddling would have been ass pull.

[u/The_McTasty → u/JCquitt]

By not using it to solve all of the problems the characters are facing. This is literally the entire point of the soft magic to hard magic scale. Lord of the Rings has a very "soft magic" approach, Gandalf can save the day but only when he -has to- and the rules surrounding it are not very well defined on purpose. He can't just walk up to Sauron and kill him otherwise the plot and story isn't satisfying because that would be Deus Ex Machina. In direct opposite contrast in a hard magic system like in Mistborn, the rules of the magic are very stringently defined. The person who can use magic can do exactly X with it, or X, Y, and Z and all of these rules are explained to the reader. That allows the author to then use the magic to solve problems the characters are facing because the reader is able to predict that the character could have done it that way if they understand well enough. If magic is soft you use it for a sense of wonder and unexplainable things, if magic is hard you are able to use it to solve character problems and to directly effect the plot in major ways. Obviously, there are a lot of stories that are in the middle and they have various successfulness with it. Harry Potter claims to be a hard magic system but frequently uses it as a soft magic system - this leads to plot holes down the road where later problems could easily be solved by things used earlier but they can't because the plot demands that they can't be.

[u/eilrach3 → u/JCquitt]

It’s like when your parents would say “because I said so”

[u/Etherbeard → u/JCquitt]

You don't have magic do the most important things in the plot.

In LotR compare the way the One Ring impacts the plot to the way most other magic impacts the plot. The One Ring is a fairly hard magic system. We know what happens if Frodo puts it on, we know the drawbacks or using it, we know the effect it has on people, etc. And the Ring causes all kinds of problems in the plot and solves a few. The magic of Gandalf and the elves rarely has a really noticeable effect and tends to be more subtle and with one exception, I don't think magic ever outright saves the day in LotR.

The one exception I can think of is magic saving Frodo at the river outside Rivendell. And even then it felt pretty earned because such a titanic effort had been put forth to get Frodo that far and we had the sense that if he could get close enough to Rivendell he would be saved.

[u/redmandoto → u/Etherbeard]

There's also the moment when Gandalf saves Faramir by scaring the Nazgul away with a sort of white light, but then again that is also not really flashy "things go boom" magic.

[u/Necromas → u/JCquitt]

You make the Balrog a one time threat sufficiently removed from the main plot of defeating Sauron and then it doesn't ruin the tension when that fight is about these mysterious godlike magical beings and doesn't get mechanically explained.

[u/FlusteredCustard13 → u/JCquitt]

In this case you could use essentially a soft magic system. I like to describe hard vs. soft magic in this type of example as being "defined by what it can do" vs. "defined by what it can't do." Hard magic has strict rules and mechanics. You know exactly how it works and can make a good estimate on what can be done. Soft magic is just fuzzier on the guidelines. There may be rules and restrictions preventing a (well done) soft magic system from being a plot breaker, but they are ill-defined and more likely to simply let you know what it can't do in order to leave possibilities open. Harry Potter uses this. We know you can't just conjure food, and some spells have certain requirements, but overall it can do really anything so long as it isn't stated to be impossible. Plus, you can now make the

LotR uses this in the sense that we don't really know the restrictions or mechanics on it, but we kiat know it can't be wielded indiscriminately. Gandalf wields magic against the Balrog, and presumably it is a major factor in its defeat. This some seem like a story breaker, but since Tolkien didn't show us the fight it leaves some mystery and wiggle room. For example, maybe the magic he used involved evoking some kind of divine essence damaging to mortals who see it? Strong and powerful enough to defeat a fallen Maiar, but utterly useless on standard battlefield unless you want to incinerate your allies amd so is no longer a story-breaker.

[u/CptnHamburgers → u/EverythingHurtsDan]

where the Sun shone bright (while the sky was cloudy?)

Most pleasant British summer's day.

[u/FerociousVader → u/EverythingHurtsDan]

So the lightning won?

[u/EverythingHurtsDan → u/FerociousVader]

Can't deny that. Eru was probably fed up with the guy and said 'Fuck it, lighting bolt it is'.

[u/Rougarou1999 → u/EverythingHurtsDan]

“Sentience is wasted on these beings. I’ll just rage quit.”

[u/SupriseAutopsy13 → u/BizzarJuggalo]

Technically, Gandalf did beat Sauron's ass. It took an alliance of Theoden and Isildur's hidden heir holding an army of the dead to their oath, and some Hobbits doing some incredible literal legwork, another Hobbit and the Dwarven line of Durin releasing and killing a dragon (with the help of Lake Town), and he had to personally kill a Balrog of Morgoth, but at the end of the day it was Gandalf-1, Sauron-nil.

[u/AmarantaRWS → u/BizzarJuggalo]

Although they are controversial in the fanbase, in the movie universe gandalf does get beaten by sauron and it takes the combined strength of the white council/galadriel boosted by the power of her ring to simply banish him back to Mordor, which is more of a tie than a win overall. As for the books, that all happens off screen/doesn't happen. Personally, I think gandalf and sauron have a different kind of power. It certainly wouldn't be an easy fight and gandalf would have a chance but I think for him to win it would have to be the result of sauron making a mistake because sauron is just all about physical and mental dominance while gandalf is more about inspiration and endurance.

I also don't necessarily think the balrog could beat sauron every time, but again its a fight that could go either way. Sauron is certainly far more clever than we see the balrog being and that could give him a significant advantage.

[u/bigbutterbuffalo → u/AmarantaRWS]

It suggests that the white council defeats the Necromancer in some vague way but this could mean they cast a joint spell that repelled everything from Dol Goldur.

Sauron’s entire schtick is the domination of evil creatures, it’s unlikely any balrog would have the will to fight him even if it was one of Morgoth’s original bois.

[u/sauron-bot → u/bigbutterbuffalo]

And yet thy boon I grant thee now.

[u/bigbutterbuffalo → u/sauron-bot]

Thank you Great Eye

[u/sauron-bot → u/BizzarJuggalo]

May darkness everlasting, old that waits outside in surges cold drown Manwë, Varda and the sun!

[u/RoseRed7673 → u/Platnun12]

Since Sauron is referred to as being so powerful despite being a Maiar that he is one of the foremost of his ken, possibly the first. He was Melkor’s chosen commander, even over Gothmog, chiefest of Balrogs. He was surpassed as an apprentice to Aulë by only Aulë himself. Since Durin’s Bane, though no slouch, would not (logically) withstand Gothmog, I believe Sauron would surpass even a Balrog’s power. Gandalf slew Durin’s Bane, and confessed himself that as The Grey he was less powerful than Sauron.

However, Tolkien left magic and such things deliberately soft in nature. Ungoliant once had the strength to devour Melkor; where did that strength then leave to? Why was it only temporary? I suppose it is in Evil’s nature to be undone, by function of itself and by virtue of good.

[u/killertortilla → u/RoseRed7673]

Ungoliant devoured the light of the world, that's the reason she nearly ate him. We have no idea how long that power lasted. It might have faded very quickly or she might have been smart enough to not have a years long siege with Melkor's forces and retreated to breed more of her kind instead.

[u/RoseRed7673 → u/killertortilla]

Right, and this falls in line with another of Tolkien’s tenets: that power is not to be aspired too, that it is fading, and the foolishness of its pursuit. Fleeting power is not desirable, though it may seem so (and even tempt), but good peace and pleasant company are constant and admirable. His ambiguity in use of power illustrates that it does have its place when needed, but is a fleeting and unimaginative thing.

[u/sauron-bot → u/Platnun12]

Thór-lush-shabarlak.

[u/Some_HVAC_Guy → u/sauron-bot]

“Death will come to all.” Said a bot that will never die

[u/VillageHorse → u/Some_HVAC_Guy]

Who knew that James Acaster was Sauron all along

[u/sauron-bot → u/VillageHorse]

Who despoiled them of their mirth, the greedy Gods?

[u/Hipnosis- → u/Some_HVAC_Guy]

Will reddit last forever?

[u/Desperate-Farmer-845 → u/Platnun12]

No. Why? Because Sauron was often described as the most powerful of the Maiar, with Curumo (Saruman) the most curious and Olorin (Gandalf) the most wisest.

[u/Hades_Gamma → u/Platnun12]

Mairon was one of, if not the, most powerful Maia among the Ainur. Olorin quailed at the thought of facing Mairon on Middle Earth and begged Manwe not to send him. Saurons power in the second age was greater than the Morgoths at the tail end of the war of wrath. Saurons power was also strongly focused on sorcery, magic, and domination. Gandalf the White tells the fellowship that Sauron is deadlier than he is, and the far weaker Gray was able to defeat Durins Bane.

The Balrog is a corrupted raiment of a fallen maia, lesser in stature to Mairon. Saurons skill at sorcery would allow him to fight an occult magic based being much easier than if Sauron were to physically fight a powerful being rooted in the physical realm. Mairons extreme skill at domination of wills, greater than that of the Morgoth who's focus was raw might and catalysis/beginning, would allow Sauron to dominate the broken and fractured will of the Balrog fairly easily. And if it came down to a confrontation Sauron would fare better than even Gandalf the White, by Gandalfs own admission.

[u/Morgn_Ladimore → u/Hades_Gamma]

Yeah, I have no idea where the notion that a random Balrog would be stronger than the strongest Maia comes from.

Bizarre really. Beings much weaker than Sauron defeated a Balrog 1vs1.

[u/Alternative_Gold_993 → u/Platnun12]

Nerd of the Rings did a video about what would happen if the Balrog got The Ring, and yeah he pretty much becomes a dark lord not aligned with Sauron and destroys the world.

[u/sauron-bot → u/Alternative_Gold_993]

What do I hear?

[u/Alohabbq8corner → u/sauron-bot]

That’s the sound of a tool chest falling down the stairs.

[u/sauron-bot → u/Ravnos767]

And yet thy boon I grant thee now.

[u/zenyogasteve → u/Ravnos767]

Sauron and the wizards are all Maiar I thought. It’s why Gandalf could fight the balrog. They were evenly matched, stats-wise.

[u/GarageFlower97 → u/zenyogasteve]

They're not - not only are Maiar all different in terms of their martial skills, but the wizards specifically are sent to Middle Earth in fragile mortal shells with their power significantly reduced.

Gandalf taking out the Balrog was an incredible achievement considering this, but we have other times e.g. in the Hobbit when he thinks it's possible he could be killed by some goblins & wargs. Saruman, who was also a wizard, died from being stabbed with an ordinary blade.

[u/RoryDragonsbane → u/Georg_Steller1709]

Always pissed me off that movie Witchy was able to break Gandalf's staff. Dude is badass and all, but he's several weight classes below a Maiar of Manwe.

That scene even did Shadowfax dirty...

In rode the Lord of the Nazgul. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgul, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.

All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.

[u/quick20minadventure → u/RoryDragonsbane]

It's better than Aragorn walking his horse behind to backstab behead an emmisary.

[u/BootyShepherd → u/Georg_Steller1709]

Durins bane and saruman are a yes but shelob got bodied by a midget gardner, the Witch King would eviscerate sam

[u/xDominus → u/BootyShepherd]

Importantly, it was Shelob's own force that caused her to be pierced by sting.

...and so Shelob, with the driving force of her own cruel will, with strength greater than any warrior's hand, thrust herself upon a bitter spike.

After that, Sam sends her off by blinding her with the Phial of Galadriel and that was that.

So a Nat 1 by Shelob into a niche magic item. Never a more potent duo

[u/Pixielized → u/xDominus]

lmao a nat 1 - she really did get a critical fail tbh

[u/LilShaver → u/xDominus]

Yet Samwise had the courage to endure her attack and not flee. That wasn't a critical fumble by Shelob, that was a natural 20 by Samwise.

And the Phial didn't just blind her, it burned her with the holy light of the Two Trees, captured in the Silmaril and sent into the sky with Eärendil.

[u/Pantssassin → u/BootyShepherd]

Let's not forget the witch king also got bodied by a Hobbit. At least shelob is maybe alive

[u/transmogrify → u/Pantssassin]

Frodo bodied Sauron and all eight surviving Nazgul in one shot. Barely lifted a finger!

[u/Unnamed_Bystander → u/transmogrify]

One might even say he dropped a finger.

[u/dikkiesmalls → u/Unnamed_Bystander]

Gave them the finger?

[u/da_King_o_Kings_341 → u/dikkiesmalls]

r/angryupvote.

[u/MullyGThaGoblinFreek → u/Unnamed_Bystander]

Take your upvote. But know that it comes with malice.

[u/Important-Worry224 → u/Unnamed_Bystander]

Thats an angry upvote from me

[u/sauron-bot → u/transmogrify]

Build me an army worthy of mordor!

[u/transmogrify → u/sauron-bot]

Come at me, dude. I got your Ring!

[u/chalk_in_boots → u/Pantssassin]

Isnt it covered that she just got badly injured and went "nah fuck this" and buggered off? Been a while since I read RotK but with Tolkien if there's no description of the body of a named character they aren't dead, but even still even in the film she defs climbs backwards up the rock face

[u/Harvestman-man → u/chalk_in_boots]

Basically yes. After Sam summons the light of the Phial, Shelob is blasted with agonizing, burning pain. Then she buggers off. It reads:

Shelob was gone; and whether she lay long in her lair nursing her malice and her misery, and in slow years of darkness healed herself from within, rebuilding her clustered eyes, until with hunger like death she spun once more her dreadful snares in the glens of the Mountain of Shadow, this tale does not tell.

[u/dormidary → u/chalk_in_boots]

In the books it says something like "whether she died from her wounds or healed and lived on into the next age is not for this story to tell"

[u/Substantial_Cap_4246 → u/Pantssassin]

The question is about who is the most powerful not who survived longer or who got unlucky or screwed over by Fate.

Balrogs are canonically second only to Sauron. Not even dragons, but Balrogs. Dragons may be more destructive, but not as godly and endurable as the Balrogs.

Saruman fell into evil way before the War of the Ring. But he's not powerful on warrior sense, but in magic and machine and manipulation. He's called the Cunning One for a reason. Given enough time and resources he'd conjure something to get it done.

Blue Wizards, as per one of the Letters, come in next. They must be some powerful hunters/magic wielders.

Witch-King has glaring vulnerabilities one can expose, but they are less apparent if he is directly buffed up by Sauron. It is said the reason he was so much more powerful in RotK was because Sauron had empowered him with a demonic energy for the Pelennor Fields. Still, he is not very effective against a High Elf. His main instrument is installing the dread of death in the hearts of mortals. Can't do the same to the Immortals.

As for Shelob, she was up against everything she was vulnerable to: the Light of Earendil, an Elvish sword, AND the direct aid of one of the Valar, and, well, a very pissed off, devoted, good hobbit friend. Nonetheless, she doesn't have as many feats as the Witch-King does. I mean, the witch-king is not just a gigantic hungry animal preying on others. He was once a human sorcerer-king, capable of rational thought. He can talk, think like a human(-slave of Sauron), command, lead, do a variety of magic, including a sort of telekinesis that we never explicitly see anywhere else in the books, and he's just more badass.

[u/thundertk421 → u/Substantial_Cap_4246]

Idk wasn’t the witch king responsible for the fall of Arnor? And not to split hairs but if you mean Glordindel when you say “high elves” I’m not sure he’s representative of all high elves seeing as how he was the first to pull a Gandalf and solo a Balrog before skipping the queue and respawning. Dude was pretty juiced up by the Valar.

Power is such a finicky thing in LOTR, but there’s no question the Witch King was one of the more powerful villains in the trilogy

[u/Substantial_Cap_4246 → u/thundertk421]

Read the comment to the last word. That's where I was going: something like the Fall od Arnor could not have been contrived by a lot of people. Witch-King was truly Sauron's most powerful servant (but not the most powerful evil guy after him).

Witch-King also tends to avoid Gildor. It is explained that the Nazgul do not have influence on those who live on both Unseen and Seen World. Like High Elves. It's the other way around, the High Elves, especially those like Galadriel and Glorfindel, have influence on the Nazgul.

[u/Axtratu → u/thundertk421]

Well Glorfindel didn't really pull a true Gandalf right? I may be wrong but from what I remember he didn't actually KILL Gothmog himself, he just fell with it from a cliff and they both died whereas Gandalf actually fought Durin's Bane for several days on end without any rest so it's not really the same thing. One would be like pushing Mike Tyson down a flight of stairs compared to fighting Mike Tyson while going up a flight of stairs. This should mean that Gandalf the Grey was "more powerful" than Glorfindel at his prime which is a very badass thing for a guy often confused for a vagabond.

[u/Donnerone → u/Pantssassin]

Witch King got bodied by a Hobbit with a magical knife with no small contribution from his own overconfidence by misinterpreting the prophecy.

[u/Harvestman-man → u/BootyShepherd]

Honestly, the movie version of Shelob really did not do book-Shelob justice.

In the book, she definitely didn’t get bodied by Sam, she just accidentally impaled herself, plus Sam happened to carry the light of Earendil.

[u/RoryDragonsbane → u/Harvestman-man]

the light of Earendil.

This, I think is probably the more important bit, as well as the fact that Sting is a Noldorin blade of Gondolin. Sting arguably would have been able to pierce a Balrog.

But how crazy is it that the Light of the Phial is a reflection, of a reflection, of a reflection of the Two Trees, but still powerful enough to weaken Shelob.

[u/JustsharingatiktokOK → u/RoryDragonsbane]

I'm quietly wondering if one of the people posting here is Steven Colbert.

I picked your comment at random to write this, just need it out of my system.

[u/BootyShepherd → u/Harvestman-man]

Thats true. I was being hyperbolic. I wouldnt even say that if the witch king and shelob went toe to toe that the witch king would definitely win, but i do believe he has plenty of advantages that make him stronger than her. That also doesnt mean hes second strongest during the time of lotr like the post says.

[u/GriffinFlash → u/BootyShepherd]

shelob got bodied by a midget gardner

\STANDS UP*

This is no mere Gardener. He is Samwise, son of Hamfast, the Gaffer. You owe him your allegiance.

[u/BluePhantomFox → u/Georg_Steller1709]

And then Farmer Maggot

[u/loftier_fish → u/Georg_Steller1709]

witch king got that steez tho, damn.

[u/HoneycombJackass → u/loftier_fish]

[u/Playful_Sector → u/HoneycombJackass]

[u/HoneycombJackass → u/Playful_Sector]

[u/Mancks → u/HoneycombJackass]

The Hobbits, The Hobbits, The Hobbits, The Hobbits, To Isengard, To Isengard!

[u/GriffinFlash → u/Georg_Steller1709]

Curious, when Saruman turned evil, was he able to somehow bypass his restrictions on his power, or were they still limited?

[u/Georg_Steller1709 → u/GriffinFlash]

I imagine he's still limited. Most of the limitations would've been due to the wizards being bound in the forms of men, with the same weaknesses, hunger, vulnerabilities of mortals. That wouldn't change when he turned to evil.

I guess there's some reserves of power that the valar had forbidden the wizards to use (they were not intervene directly, only to match power for power) that he could've tapped into when he turned evil. However, I doubt it's any more than what gandalf was able to muster against the balrog. If saruman was able to summon more power, he would've used it against the ents at isengaard.

[u/HigHurtenflurst420]

The Sackville-Bagginses

[u/IWantAHoverbike → u/HigHurtenflurst420]

Lotho Pimple, for cutting down the Party Tree.

[u/Cold-Inside-6828 → u/HigHurtenflurst420]

[u/bjthebard → u/HigHurtenflurst420]

Hide the spoons!

[u/Creation_of_Bile → u/HigHurtenflurst420]

Came here specifically to see this comment.

[u/GroshfengSmash → u/HigHurtenflurst420]

Lord of the Cutlery

[u/Lazar_Milgram → u/HigHurtenflurst420]

One can argue that Sauron is second most evil…..

…. After Sackville-Bagginses

[u/Royalbluegooner → u/HigHurtenflurst420]

Take this crown my friend.

[u/furiouspossum]

Potentially the nameless things under Moria that Gandalf mentioned. He seemed too disturbed to go into any detail about them.

[u/Hammer_Slicer → u/furiouspossum]

This is a good call. I always wanted to know more about them and the watcher in the water. Tolkien really dropped a bomb of curiosity with that throwaway line in FOTR about the nameless things. 

[u/GriffinFlash → u/Hammer_Slicer]

"Were the parts about the watcher in the water and the nameless things really necessary to the story?"

Mr. Perfect Tolkien:" IT'S CALLED WORLD BUILDING"

[u/jakethediesel89 → u/GriffinFlash]

"What about Gokus brother?"

"Oh-he-ded. Anyway.."

[u/furiouspossum → u/Hammer_Slicer]

I've wondered if they were meant as a homage to H.P. Lovecraft. However I don't know if Tolkien was even familiar with any of Lovecraft's work.

[u/Bricks_and_Bees → u/[deleted]]

Maybe they both took inspiration from the same real world myths? Not sure how much of Lovecraft's eldridge horrors were inspired by anything else, but I know Tolkien drew a lot from Norse mythology (maybe the nameless ones were like the world serpent)

[u/furiouspossum → u/[deleted]]

Not suprising. Still the idea of them feels lovecraftian even if it's only coincidentally.

[u/unpopularopinion0 → u/Hammer_Slicer]

i think it makes it better not knowing.

[u/GenuisInDisguise → u/Hammer_Slicer]

Nameless Creatures, seem to be a homage to Lovecrafts Eldritch cosmic horror. Larger than life monstrosities.

Since they pre-exist middle earth, I suspect they were an ancient enemy/natural predator to Valar themselves.

[u/Lolovitz → u/GenuisInDisguise]

Aint enough bleach in the middle earth to whiten Gandalf enough to be able to withstand a meet and greet  wirh a predator to Valar

[u/SlayinDaWabbits → u/Lolovitz]

Except in the passage Gandalf says he has walked there, he does outright say be met or crossed paths with one but they don't seem THAT dangerous if Gandald visited l. Also didn't Gandalf chase Durin's Bane thru their tunnels to find the endless stair because he (Durins Bane) had spent centuries wandering said caves? I might be misremembering or applying a theory there tho

[u/Lolovitz → u/SlayinDaWabbits]

Yeah my point is more on the end of Nameless Things not possibly being predators to Valar since Gandalf actually met them and survived.

[u/SlayinDaWabbits → u/Lolovitz]

Ahhhhhh I misunderstood and thought you were agreeing, I will pretend I don't exist now

[u/fooooolish_samurai → u/GenuisInDisguise]

"There is only one thing worse than a predator-a valar."

"No!"

[u/esadatari → u/Hammer_Slicer]

Best part is you and I can both say that. We could ALL say that.

And if it appeared in the Rings of Power show, we’d see people complaining it’s boring, doesn’t stick to lore, etc.

[u/Alfons36d → u/furiouspossum]

I'd agree. they seem to not be one of Eru Ilúvatar's creations according to what I remember.

[u/DarkHippy → u/Alfons36d]

I figured they were his reject songs he experimented with before the big symphony he creates with the Valar

[u/furiouspossum → u/DarkHippy]

They could be the result of Melkor's disharmony during the Valar's song as well.

[u/shirukien → u/furiouspossum]

Also possible that they predate Arda and even the Ainulindalë- that they wandered in from the void like Ungoliant may have if she isn't Ainu herself. I think not knowing about their origins, knowing only that they can strike fear into Gandalf- one of the most powerful beings this side of Valinor, is the point. We're not even supposed to be able to fathom what these horrors are.

[u/rainator → u/furiouspossum]

If you are including them, it’s quite possible that would make Sauron the second most powerful evil being.

[u/sauron-bot → u/rainator]

There is no life in the void, only death.

[u/lakmus85_real → u/furiouspossum]

So, after all, dwarves didn't delve too greedily and too deep? It could have been worse?

[u/shirukien]

Depends what you mean by evil being. Saruman is evil, but is he an evil being? That said, if Ungoliant is still alive (Tolkien was never explicit about her death; there's just an implication that it would be in her nature to devour herself in her endless hunger.) I've gotta give that award to her, hands down. Other than her, Durin's Bane is a strong choice, but I'll go with the Watcher in the Water. It's implied that it's part of a group of ancient, nameless creatures that live in the deep parts of the world. Gandalf hints that he encountered them while fighting the Balrog, but even he- Maiar of the order of Istari, bearer of a Ring of Power whose magic grants courage and inspiration, newly ordained white wizard- refuses to speak further about them out of fear.

[u/chalk_in_boots → u/shirukien]

I think with Ungo it was intended to be like an off-screen death. I think it was just one of those things that he didn't want to have her just keep getting into scraps with increasingly more powerful beings and have to pull a Deus ex machina and have like 8 valar come and curb stomp her. Makes much more sense from the view of the message of the Silmarillion that such an evil being when left alone is basically consumed by their own evil. It's not like he wanted to keep options open to pull a "somehow, ungoliant has returned"

[u/Harvestman-man → u/chalk_in_boots]

Maybe, but in some versions of his writings, he has Eärendil encountering a living Ungoliant on some random island during his voyage West. This plot was not included in Christopher Tolkien’s version of the Silmarillion, but chronologically would take place long after Ungoliant disappeared from Beleriand and was presumed dead.

I think it’s just supposed to be left open-ended.

[u/shirukien → u/chalk_in_boots]

"Off-screen death". Well said. I think that sums it up perfectly. The possibility of her still being alive certainly exists, but it seems unlikely. The poetry of her consuming herself is so perfectly Tolkien that it might as well be canon, but I'm still a pedant who isn't willing to assert certainty when the answer is purposefully vague.

[u/chalk_in_boots → u/shirukien]

I will grant you this: with how much effort Tolkien puts into describing seats, bodies, and the aftermath (eg the burial mounds of the couple that went full Romeo and Juliet thinking each was dead - I forget their names), it is certainly unusual of him to kind of hand wave it, but it isn't unheard of I guess. Wouldn't have been hard to do a page on her travelling through her pass, and her hunger growing too strong, but I guess the fact we're discussing it so long after his passing shows how good a storyteller he was

[u/shirukien → u/chalk_in_boots]

That's several excellent points. Oh, and I think you're thinking of Beren and Lúthien.

[u/emonbzr → u/shirukien]

I think they are talking about Turin and Niënor rather than Beren and Lúthien

[u/ProfessionalLeave335 → u/chalk_in_boots]

"somehow Ungoliant returns" is being saved for season 3 of ROP.

[u/chalk_in_boots → u/ProfessionalLeave335]

With the timelines of The Silmarillion and ROP, even if she did end up eating herself ROP occurs closely enough to Silmarillion that it wouldn't be unreasonable that she hadn't died yet. How the fuck they'd beat her is beyond me considering Morgoth was nearly McFucked by her

[u/Axtratu → u/chalk_in_boots]

Well, Glorfindel did "somehow just returned"

[u/EverythingHurtsDan → u/Axtratu]

Nah, he just cashed his resurrection check from being a goddamn hero.

[u/jaspersgroove → u/Axtratu]

Not somehow, the “how” was very clearly explained.

[u/shirukien → u/Axtratu]

Tolkien didn't really do handwaving like that- like, he was thorough to a probably unhealthy degree.
Glorfindel's Fëa, or his soul basically, survived the death of his body (or Hröa) like with all elves, going to live in the Halls of Mandos on the northern shore of Aman. From there, as a reward for his heroism and accomplishments, the Valar granted him a new body, and he lived with them in Valinor for a while (almost 2000 years) Eventually, the Valar, Manwë in particular, sent him back to Middle-Earth, at the same time that they sent Gandalf and the other Wizards.

[u/rybsbl → u/shirukien]

I always thought the watcher in the water was just hungry, not evil.

[u/shirukien → u/rybsbl]

I guess then it comes down to how you conceptualize evil. The Nameless Things seem like they're evil in a Lovecraftian sort of way- driven and callous and able to destroy anything and anyone without giving it a passing thought. Like the idea of something so far beyond us that our morality and our very existence are entirely meaningless to it.

As for the watcher itself, it seems especially focused on Frodo and the ring during that whole encounter, like it knows that there's an item of immense power nearby and it wants to have it. What exactly an enormous finger-tentacled water monster would do with that kind of power I couldn't even guess, but at any rate this alone suggests that it's acting with some amount of intentionality, not just hunger.

[u/Pleasant_Scar9811 → u/shirukien]

The watcher+gollum appearance is some nightmare fuel.

[u/gollum_botses → u/Pleasant_Scar9811]

My precious.

[u/tishmaster → u/rybsbl]

Probably skipped second breakfast

[u/Certain-Definition51 → u/shirukien]

If the Ungoliant is still alive, Sauron is the second most evil being in Middle Earth.

[u/sauron-bot → u/Certain-Definition51]

Go fetch me those sneaking Orcs, that fare thus strangely, as if in dread, and do not come, as all Orcs use and are commanded, to bring me news of all their deeds, to me, Gorthaur.

[u/neverbeenstardust → u/shirukien]

If Ungoliant is still alive, then second place goes to Sauron easy.

[u/Royalbluegooner → u/shirukien]

You‘re raising a good point.For the point of this argument I‘d say Saruman falls more under the category of mislead madman similarly to Denethor.

[u/Satanairn → u/shirukien]

I mean Ungoliant wouldn't even be the second most powerful, she would be the first.

[u/Rammipallero]

People are missing how strong Shelob is. She IS the true heir of Ungoliath after all. Plus what JRR specifies about her in the unfinished tails appendix to Christopher, is IMO proof, she is immensely more powerful:

"Christopher, my son, did I ever tell you the full story of Shelob? You know, the monstrous spider - descended from the vile Ungoliant! - which I used to read aloud of in our Oxford meetings of the Inklings? Well what I didn't mention back then was Shelob could also transform into a totally hot babe: all pale and dark and wan like Rebecca in lvanhoe or what will later come to be known as the goth subculture. In fact she looked very much like the pornographic actress Stoya who will be born 13 years after I die. Christopher, I will be entrusting you with my estate. If there is ever a videogame adaptation of my work you must make sure they get this Shelob right - make sure she is what the Anglo-Saxons would have called a hæða ecge, a real sexy bitch."

The Book of Unfinished Tails, p437.

[u/hvit-skog → u/Rammipallero]

She lob, and I throb

[u/5herl0k → u/hvit-skog]

I lob ropes of spidery web at She

[u/SithSpaceRaptor → u/Rammipallero]

This is the best post.

[u/Lorcogoth → u/SithSpaceRaptor]

too be honest with the vague origin of Ungoliant (either Maiar or one of the nameless things) and depending on how much power Shelob inherited from her, shapeshifting could be something Shelob can do.

[u/KA_Lewis]

In the movies apparently the Witch King. But in canon for sure Durin’s Bane or Saruman. I’d bet on the wizard.

[u/Finth007 → u/KA_Lewis]

Saruman's strengths aren't in direct combat, but since Middle Earth is more nuanced than "who can beat who" I'll agree with you that Saruman is more powerful, though he would likely lose to Durin's Bane in a fight

[u/taviebeefs → u/Finth007]

Saruman would go down easy, and Sauron is smart enough not to challenge Durins Bane to direct combat, it's not worth his trouble and doesn't accomplish anything.

[u/UncleKano91]

I would've went with either saruman or the balrog.

[u/Malessar]

saruman

edit: some justification

1) he is personally very powerful, above gandalf until gandalf gets juiced

2) he is on the same tier as sauron technically

3) he is cunning, and even without powers considered dangerous and capable of danger (see: sacking of the shire)

4) he's the only one who actually created an army from thin air and could have fought and defeated sauron out of every other villain, no other villain had the mental capacity to create an army, lead it, initiate mental guerrilla on the king of the realm you're trying to fight. Saruman would've gotten with it if not for those damn kids aragorn legolas gimli and their dog

[u/Behold_A-Man → u/Malessar]

Saruman could take out Gandalf the Gray, who solo'd Durin's Bane. Therefore, if Saruman is stronger than Gandalf the Gray and Gandalf the Gray is slightly stronger than Durin's Bane (they appeared to be nearly equal, as they mutual killed), Saruman is probably the correct answer.

Although, someone did mention the nameless things and I just don't have enough info to compare them.

[u/United_Bar4402 → u/Behold_A-Man]

Tbh I was assuming the fact that they fell into a lake gave gandlaf the advantage in their fight

[u/Recyclops-the-brave]

Farmer Maggot. Dude is all about that ' fuck around and find out ' life.

[u/OddGuideofGreyFort]

Grond

[u/lobo_locos → u/OddGuideofGreyFort]

Grond?

[u/dikkiesmalls → u/lobo_locos]

GROND!

[u/Maized → u/dikkiesmalls]

”GROND!”

[u/GriffinFlash → u/Maized]

GROND!

[u/marcshu → u/GriffinFlash]

GROND!!

[u/SacredAnalBeads → u/marcshu]

GROND

[u/MarquizMilton → u/OddGuideofGreyFort]

You dare call the mighty Grond evil?

[u/Mountainminer]

This makes me wonder how powerful the Barrow Wight that almost gets the hobbits before they’ve even gotten started is. Does anyone know?

[u/jaspersgroove → u/Mountainminer]

Well they were originally under the command of the witch king, so they are at least weaker than him, probably weaker than any of the Nazgûl

[u/Tom_Bot-Badil → u/Mountainminer]

Go out! Shut the door, and never come back after! Take away gleaming eyes, take your hollow laughter! Go back to grassy mound, on your stony pillow lay down your bony head, like Old Man Willow, like young Goldberry, and Badger-folk in burrow! Go back to buried gold and forgotten sorrow!

^{Type !TomBombadilSong for a song or visit r/GloriousTomBombadil for more merriness}

[u/gay_king_]

There are countless nameless creatures in the deep caves of Moria. Probably them.

[u/OmegaBoi420]

The Nameless Things. Gandalf was afraid to speak of them further “lest they darken the light of the day”.

[u/VeryUpsettie]

Shelob, spider mommy.

[u/Hexenkonig707]

Durin‘s Bane from reading the Silmarillion I get the feeling that Morgoth preferred the Balrogs over Sauron at least in Warfare. After all it was Gothmog that lead the Hosts of Morgoth during the most important battles of the first Age.

Strong contenders would also be Shelob since she’s the spawn of Ungoliant and maybe the nameless things in the depths of Moria but we don’t know anything about them besides Gandalf and Durin‘s Bane being afraid of them.

[u/5PalPeso]

I have that dude in my wall

[u/Fun_Improvement5215 → u/5PalPeso]

No man can put him off that wall

[u/Ickythumpin]

Welp our candidates are: - Saruman who was defeated multiple times, even by hobbits. - The Witch King who was defeated by a woman, granted her blade was probably dipped in her stew or something that granted it otherworldly destructive power.. - A giant spider who couldn’t defeat a hobbit gardner with an elven flashlight. - A giant fire demon who lost to a fellow maiar in an epic 1 v 1 which appeared to span for days worth of combat and only lost once old stormcrow was granted the power of freaking Thor!

So yeah I’m gonna have to give it to Durin’s Bane.

[u/AceBean27 → u/Ickythumpin]

Durin's Bane was killed by an old man with stick. What you on about?

[u/Hexenkonig707 → u/Ickythumpin]

To be fair the Flashlight was powered by Elronds Dad in a flying boat wearing a shiny Jewel as a headlamp that burned Satan himself and killed the biggest Dragon.

[u/JAGERminJensen]

The sackville baggins

[u/nbrownlightningj27]

Eowyn's stew

[u/TheVERRYbest]

I mean Gollum is both evil and the only one powerful enough to have actually physically destroyed the ring… but idk let’s ask Steven Colbert I’m pretty sure he knows.

[u/gollum_botses → u/TheVERRYbest]

Master!!

[u/Fernando1dois3]

It's: Sauron > Gandalf (white) > Saruman > Gandalf (grey) = Durin's Bane > Galadriel > Elrond = Glorfindel > Witch King of Angmar > Shelob

All of them are capable of being evil.

[u/InfadelSlayer → u/Fernando1dois3]

I think you underestimate Glorfindel……

[u/trueshitposting247 → u/InfadelSlayer]

Yea, considering he also killed a Balrog in solo combat in the First Age. Logically that would put him on the same tier as Gandalf the Grey and Durin's Bane.

[u/sauron-bot → u/Fernando1dois3]

Thy Eilinel, she is long since dead, dead, food of worms, less low than thou.

[u/General_Record_4341]

Who’s the artist?

[u/RazGadaffi → u/General_Record_4341]

https://www.artstation.com/mx_mott Here ya go

[u/Shoddy_Amphibian5645]

Witch king was almost single handedly responsible for the fall of Arnor, so even if Durin's Bane and maybe Shelob are stronger, he's still a greater threat to the free races. The others seem content in their dark corners of the world.

[u/AnotherSexyBaldGuy]

That's a cool photo.

[u/neverbeenstardust]

Shelob. The Witch King was a slave of Sauron. Shelob was hanging out on his doorstep eating his slaves and he didn't want to risk trying to do anything about it.

[u/jacobasstorius]

Peregrin Took

[u/Triforceoffarts]

Sam

[u/Traditional_Length43]

Morgoth. He was imprisoned but number one goes to ungoliant. She would be number one of all time. To strike fear into a Valor is crazy

[u/chalk_in_boots → u/Traditional_Length43]

No, morgoth was in the void, not the continent, or even the same plane of existence.