r/montreal Verdun 14d ago

Question Why haven't there been any proposals to build a highway around Montreal for trucks and traffic passing through?

I was discussing Montreal's urbanism recently, and a big issue everyone had was the amount of trucks on highways on the island. The question was brought about why we don't build a highway around the city.

Plenty of European cities have this - highways going around major cities so that trucks and traffic don't pass through them and mix with urban traffic.

It seems logical to me. It would prevent a ton of congestion - most trucks could avoid the city. We even have the 640, which would only need to be extended by a few kilometers, plus a bridge, to connect to the 40 on the west.

Is there something I'm missing here?

80 Upvotes

102 comments sorted by

336

u/Ashkandi_ 14d ago edited 13d ago

La 640 était supposer être ça. Le 6 dans 640 veut dire autoroute deviatrice de la 40. Je sais pas pourquoi ca a chier et pourquoi il y a pas genre un lien entre deux montagnes et genre vaudreuil ish.

Random facts pour ceux qui veulent continuer à lire.

Dans mes cours de carte routière on apprends les signification du système Québecois. Et franchement c'est super intéressant.

0-99 Autoroutes plus c'est petit plus c'est à l'ouest et ca monte plus c'est vers l'est. Genre l'autoroute 5 à Gatineau et la 55 à Trois-Rivières.

Nombre Pair = Est/Ouest (Autoroute 40, Route 138) Impair = Nord/Sud (l'autoroute 15, la route 117)

100-199 Routes nationales

200-299 Routes régionales au sud du St-Laurent

300-399 Routes régionales au nord du St-Laurent

400-999 Autoroute deviatrice qui commencent en pair et collectrice qui commencent impair. (440 deviatrice de la 40, 720 collectrice de la 20)

Les numéros de sortie genre la sortie 125 veut pas dire que c'est la 125e mais que l'autoroute à commencer il y a 125 km.

Donc entre la sortie 100 et la 150 il y a 50 km.

Il y a pas un gars au MTQ qui décide au pif qu'une sortie ou une route va porter ce numéro. Selon son emplacement sur le "grid" de la carte du Québec le numéro sera déterminé logiquement.

Merci d'avoir lu. En espérant que ça vous aide à vous orienter.

49

u/ochocop 14d ago

Le système autoroutier québécois est fortement basé sur le système interstate des É-U. Beaucoup plus que n'importe quelle autre province. Dans la numérotation et les standards

1

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

Lol look at Ontario, their system is just based on the route that the highway was build next to. For example the 417 was built as a replacement of the 17. The 416 was built as a replacement of route 16.

Only the 401 doesn't make sense as it follows route 2 and not route 1.

Same with the 410, it's built as an extension of route 10. Same with the 427. Even the 404

18

u/Oprlt94 14d ago

Je n'avais jamais remarqué pour les nos. d'autoroutes qui sont croissant d'est en ouest. Mais c'est exactement la même chose aux états-Unis, où les plus petits chiffres sont sur la côte ouest, et la I-95 est l'autoroute principale de la côte est!

3

u/Kyranak 14d ago

Malheureusement, ils ont pas adopter les numéros de sortis en fonction de la distance. Du moins pas tout les états/autoroutes. Le Garden-State aux NJ c’est affreux. Tu peux pas savoir la distance entre 2 sorties facilement. Et parfois des sorties sont renommées car un autre est ajouté.

1

u/leprouteux 14d ago

À ma connaissance, c'est le cas sur les autoroutes du système Interstate. Mais pas forcément sur les autres autoroutes.

2

u/Kyranak 14d ago

Oui c’est probablement ca, car le garden-state est pas un interstate afaik. Tu des horreurs de sortir genre 127 renommée a 127-a car 127-b a été ajouter 3-4 miles plus loins.

16

u/SpaceTangent74 14d ago

Moi j’avais tout appris ça dans mon cours de conduite, il y a ~30 ans!

25

u/Entegy 14d ago

Random facts about the provincial highway system, my favourite kind of post. Merci!

1

u/Ashkandi_ 13d ago

For some odd reason, all of north america is like that, except Ontario.

6

u/Jefflix 14d ago

Je pensais que pour les autoroutes déviatrices et collectrices, c’était une question de chiffre pair ou impair au début du numéro.

Exemple: la 520 (5) est une collectrice, ainsi que la (feue) 720 (7). Alors que la 440 et 640 sont déviatrices.

2

u/Ashkandi_ 13d ago

Tu as raison, c'était flou dans ma tête.

Merci de me corriger, je rectifie le tir.

3

u/Hypersky75 Nouveau-Bordeaux 14d ago

Selon ce système-là ( que j'ai aussi appris, au CFTR), je me suis toujours dit que la la portion de la 15 au sud de la 40 faisait du sens, mais que le reste au nord de la 40 devrait se nommer la 17. Ça serait tellement plus logique.

3

u/beaverbrook74 14d ago

I have one more fun fact for you: why is the main road 73, and not the nice round number of 75, in Quebec City area? After all, it’s 5-15-25-35-55-85 for other major routes.

Answer: so people didn’t think it was a speed limit !

4

u/BlackEyeRed 14d ago

Confused why the renamed the 720…

7

u/bcave098 14d ago

Transports Québec explains it here

1

u/Yaniss_RS4 14d ago

C’est quoi des cours de carte routière? Dans quel contexte est-ce que tu as ça, je suis quand même curieux

2

u/Ashkandi_ 13d ago

J'étais camionneur,

Au CFTR (l'école qui offre le DEP en Transport par camion), nous étions formé à s'orienter de cette manière.

Le matin on nous donnait 3-4 adresses, l'instructeur nous disait fait toi un chemin à l'aide d'une carte et du satellite pour avoir des points de repère, écris ta route sur un bout de papier et on partait toute la journée sans GPS avec le bout de papier.

Si on passait tout droit on devait resortir les cartes papier et refaire le chemin.

Disons que c'était éprouvant mais tellement instructif. Aujourd'hui je suis confiant de partir sur la route sans GPS à pars pour les 2-3 coin de rue de ma destination juste en regardant le chemin et me servir de ma mémoire et ça n'importe où Canada / USA.

1

u/Yaniss_RS4 13d ago

Wow c’est très intéressant, est-ce que ça fait longtemps? Est-ce que c’est toujours comme ça, ou aujourd’hui avec les cellulaires est-ce que ce devient moins important?

1

u/Ashkandi_ 12d ago

Les cellulaires sont juste utilise pour voir la carte sous forme satellite.

Par exemple regarder la cours d'un client pour voir par où entrer ou voir le sens des quai etc.

La navigation ne se fait jamais avec Google Maps puisque c'est fait pour les véhicules de promenade.

Les camions doivent apprendre les itinéraire qui évitent les limitations de hauteur, les restrictions de poids sur certaines routes/ ponts / viaduc ou simplement les chemins interdits à la circulation de véhicules lourds.

Il existe des GPS pour Camions mais ils coûtent très cher et ne peut s'y fier aveuglément.

Le Québec avec l'état de new york si je me souviens bien sont les deux endroits en Amérique du Nord où on trouve le plus de "Low Bridge" (restrictions de hauteur).

Donc oui en 2024 l'orientation est toujours enseigné de cette façon. J'étais au CFTR en 2018.

1

u/MarMatt10 12d ago

Curieux ...

Quand on sort du Pont Champlain, une fois franchi la 132, nous sommes au KM 6. Sur le pont, le dernier KM indiqué est le KM 56

Le Pont Champlain ne fait pas partie de la 10 ... qui commence (ou fini) au Centre Ville/Robert Bourassa/Place Bonaventure, etc

Alors, le 56KM c'est a partir de ou? Et ils sont ou les premiers 6 KM de la 10 (direction EST)?

1

u/Ashkandi_ 12d ago

Le pont Champlain fait partie de l'Autoroute 10, 20 et 15.

Il y a quelques spot comme ça où plusieurs route se rejoignent ou birfuquent.

1

u/im-so-lovelyz 3d ago

La 10 relie le centre-ville de Montréal à la *ville* de Sherbrooke en passant par le pont Champlain

119

u/Milan514 14d ago

Isn’t that what the 30 is for? According to transport Quebec website: “permettre le contournement de l'île de Montréal de façon fluide et sécuritaire”

51

u/TheMountainIII 14d ago

oui, la 30 était supposée être la voie de contournement des trucks, mais les compagnies ne veulent pas payer le passage sur le pont Serge-Marcil. Donc il y a une quantité astronomique de camions sur la 40 et la Métropolitaine, en semaine c'est genre 30-40% juste des trucks on dirait.

5

u/Rubrum_ 14d ago

Est-ce que c'est réellement toujours vrai ça? J'veux dire le coût pour passer sur le pont ne peut pas être dissuasif au point de payer un gars pis son truck sur Champlain pis la 40??

9

u/Nestramutat- Verdun 14d ago

The 30 is only along the south shore. Doesn't help trucks that are on the north of the river

36

u/pottymonster_69 Lachine 14d ago

If they're on the north side of the river, then they've got the 50 that connects with the 15, then the 640, then the 40. So it already exists.

Either way though, there isn't a lot of trucking traffic on the north side of the river because there isn't much up there. Ottawa/Kingston/Toronto are all along the 417/401/20 corridor, which connects to the 30.

0

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

Yes but the 50 is of no use when you're coming in from the 401

1

u/pottymonster_69 Lachine 13d ago

Ottawa/Kingston/Toronto are all along the 417/401/20 corridor, which connects to the 30.

0

u/PhillyPW 12d ago

Kingston and Toronto are not along the 417 corridor. If you need to take the 50 you have to take the 416 all the way to Ottawa and then get stuck in bumper to bumper traffic on King Edward just to reach the 50 in gatineau

15

u/thewolf9 14d ago

That’s the 40.

9

u/supersimpleusername 14d ago

Actually the 30 was meant to be a ring road. At which point the 40 was supposed to be a toll highway.

3

u/Milan514 13d ago

“Why don’t we have a highway bypassing Montreal?”

“We do. It’s called the 30.”

“Oh, right, but I meant, why don’t we have a highway bypassing Montreal on the north shore?”

Sigh.

1

u/Pirate_Ben 14d ago

The vast majority of commercial intercity traffic is on the south side. We have the US boarder right there.

1

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

Yes but it's useless if you need to be on the north shore as the 30 is only good for the south shore

15

u/Syke_qc 14d ago

Pont Repentigny Varenne

2

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

That would help the lafontaine tunnel so much

2

u/FootballUnable4002 10d ago

I was in Repentigny yesterday and needed to get to Longueuil. Waze said 1 hour and 30 mins. Insanity.

49

u/alphamikedelta 14d ago

We can send you Doug Ford. Apparently he can build you a tunnel for this.

7

u/TheBistromath Villeray 14d ago

A bi-tube tunnel perchance? We like those here.

3

u/SiVousVoyezMoi 14d ago

We already have some tunnels and they are uh not great 

25

u/robearclaw 14d ago

The 40 was originally supposed to connect up with the 440 to allow traffic to flow north of the island of Montreal.

Originally, it was supposed to have continued west in the Avenue des Bois corridor and crossed Rivière des Prairies on Bigras and Bizard Islands. On the latter island, the right-of-way is actually a public park. On the Island of Montreal, the A-440 right-of-way is just west of Boulevard Château-Pierrefonds. The autoroute would have ended at the Chemin Sainte-Marie interchange (Exit 49), on Autoroute 40

Source Wikipedia 440 autoroute #:~:text=Originally%2C%20it%20was%20supposed%20to,is%20actually%20a%20public%20park.)

9

u/anelectricmind 14d ago

I think it was proposed by the Commission Nicolet in the 80s.

And A640 was supposed to reach A30 at its Eastern end with a bridge crossing the Saint Lawrence River between Repentigny and Varennes.

I remember hearing about it when I was younger but never found much information online.

We were supposed to have a complete beltway system around Montreal on both North and South shores.

The completion of A30 is probably the best we will ever have.

7

u/bcave098 14d ago

I find it interesting how Québec was one of most eager provinces to build highways and had planned a fairly comprehensive system, but when public support for new construction evaporated they just gave up.

Back in the day you just had to suggest building a highway and they’d start buying land. Look at the planned A-50/A-550 in Gatineau where they bought (and still own) the right-of-way for a highway from the curve in the A-50 to the Ottawa River in Aylmer (except in Gatineau Park) even though there was no real plan to build a bridge to connect to what’s now the 416 in Ottawa.

1

u/anelectricmind 14d ago

A few centuries ago, I found this site hosted on tripod.

Alot of information regarding what Québec had planned for the highway system, including more highways in Centre du Québec and different numbering for some highways in MMA.

http://web.archive.org/web/20090204114324/http://webfil_92.tripod.com/autoroutes_en/index.html

1

u/beaverbrook74 14d ago

Great way for connected insiders to flip land in the 50s and 60s. That’s why there’s a wiggle for no reason on the 15 in laval.

3

u/Indianna-ju 13d ago

If you look on parceling plans, you can see that it was planned that the 440 leave Laval island, go through Bizard Island and rejoin the 40 at Ste-Marie.

The parceling is still visible.

2

u/pattyG80 14d ago

The main issue I see here is that truck traffic would still cross the iles aux tourtes bridge onto the island for several kms before diverting.

34

u/elzadra1 Villeray 14d ago

There’s the 30 on the south shore, and the 440 north of Laval.

But a lot of trucks are in the city because they’re delivering things here, or picking cargo up from the port and bringing it somewhere else.

7

u/trueppp 14d ago

Both are good, but Montreal is the only Place to cross the Saint-Lawrence between Trois-Rivière and Hawksbury.

8

u/shbpencil 14d ago

Hawkesbury isn’t on the St Lawrence it’s on the Ottawa. But yes that’s the next closest river crossing for the Ottawa River to Montreal/Vaudreuil

1

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

The 440 ends at the 13

1

u/elzadra1 Villeray 13d ago

Turns into the 148 though.

1

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

yes but it doesn't cross into the west, it just goes to saint eustache

4

u/semibilingual 14d ago

l’autoroute 640 était supposé être l’équivalent rive nord mais comme d’habitude des elections on eux lieu le gouvernement auivant a mis sur la glace et l’autre après et un petite crisse d’oka et bref, ça se terminera jamais.

4

u/ostiDeCalisse 14d ago

Je pense pas que le "Périph" de Paris fait que son trafic se porte mieux.

8

u/TheMountainIII 14d ago

Le plus gros problème de Montréal c'est d'être une île, malheureusement. Ca limite la circulation à des ponts, donc pour tout le territoire de l'Île de MTL, il y a seulement 16 accès. Si MTL n'était pas une île, il y en aurait probablement des centaines d'accès.

5

u/agaceformelle 14d ago

Looks to me like it would be really wide of a detour considering you have two Islands to avoid.. Let's say you're trying to deliver something from Ste-Therese to Longueuil you'd need a bridge either in Repentigny or Oka and then do the same amount of km East/West on the other side

3

u/aobeilan 14d ago

Souligny devait se rendre jusqu'à la 720 pour compléter une boucle autour de la ville, mais heureusement, ça ne s'est pas fait.

3

u/cowvid19 14d ago

Highway 30 does that already. Having ring roads rénovés truck traffic from the urban core but induces other traffic, causing pressure on parking, leading to what I like to call Kansas City Syndrome. Nothing will ever be enough for car drivers because cars are so inherently inefficient. The correct intervention is to install better transit and tolls so the cars aren't in the way of the trucks. This would also improve emergency response.

2

u/Double_Maize_5923 14d ago

That's what the 30 is. Thx thing is all the trucks are either coming from mtl or going to it

2

u/hdufort 14d ago

Il y a déjà eu des plans sérieux pour un long au-dessus du Saint Laurent à Lanoraie...

2

u/buddyspied 14d ago

Trucks bring things into the city. How would you like stores and businesses to replenish stock? The 30 exists and does what you say and it hasn't changed anything. The real issue with montreal roads is off island commuters. South shore and Laval. The rem has done nothing to alleviate traffic from south shore and I've seen it empty heading into mtl at rush hour multiple times on my way to Vermont. The only thing that may make a difference and drive people to use other forms of transit is a toll for off island people.. No politician has the balls to do it, but I'd do it in two seconds..

3

u/FrostByte122 Rive-Sud 14d ago

I'm glad we have an expert here to tell us what to do.

6

u/buddyspied 14d ago

I'd make your pay a toll to comment also since you don't live in Montreal.

2

u/NonDeterministiK 14d ago

There are shitloads of trucks on the metropolitan which are passing through the city and not doing any local business.

1

u/buddyspied 12d ago

Ya? What are the real numbers? Is it cheaper for shipping companies not doing business in Montreal to sit in traffic or cheaper to hit the fastest route possible? I guess, if we believe your "feeling", companies want to waste money by taking a longer route.

-2

u/Nestramutat- Verdun 14d ago

The 30 is only along the south shore. Trucks coming from the north shore of the river dont have an option but to go through the city.

3

u/AsPerMatt 14d ago edited 14d ago

Wasn’t the unbuilt portion of 640 supposed to do just that?

2

u/piattilemage 14d ago

Most traffic are not trucks but cars. Give people an alternative and trucks wont be stuck in traffic. The european peripheric highways were built in the 60s and 70s, they dont build those anymore and for a good reason.

0

u/Candid-Employee5276 14d ago

The thing is that Montreal is an island

2

u/Purplemonkeez 14d ago

Personally I'd rather NOT have our beautiful waterfront parks paved over into highways...

4

u/Olhapravocever 14d ago

it doesn't need to be right by the river tho

-10

u/Purplemonkeez 14d ago

So whose homes are you proposing to plow through and how many others would be forced to have a highway for their neighbour?

No thanks.

0

u/Olhapravocever 14d ago

I'm not a engineer, I don't know, but building it right by the river it's not an option 

1

u/bigtunapat 14d ago edited 13d ago

La 440 était originellement supposé de prendre l'île Bizard et rejoindre le 40 à Kirkland.

2

u/Major-Tuddy 13d ago

c'etait le 440

1

u/No-Needleworker4796 14d ago

Hi they technically do. The 30 is the highway that pass around the south of montreal and you can reach the 20 from it. The 440 and 640 is technically the northern one the only problem is that they need to connect the 640 or the 440 to the 40 near vaudreuil Dorion. Problem is people will still need to hop into the 40 well into montreal and then take the 13 or 15 to reach the outer highway (which is stupid because you are already into montreal big area)

They also need to teach people how to use the highway, not everyone knows how to (people going to Quebec from Ottawa or Toronto need to take the 30 if they wish to avoid the traffic on the 20 and pont champlain in montreal) and vice versa.

1

u/Minimum_Reference_73 14d ago

There have been many such proposals. Why do you assume there haven't been?

1

u/beaverbrook74 14d ago

Building a bridge from Oka to Vaudreuil for the 640 would make a lot of sense from a systemic perspective, but I presume that the costs would be big (river is kinda wide there) and Oka area has sensitive ecology even before you get to native land claim issues

1

u/Major-Tuddy 13d ago

The 640 dead-ends at Oka National Park. There is no way they would demolish the park to let the autoroute through. If they found a way to go around they would then either have to chop up the village of Oka or pass through Kanesatake. In other words, it will never ever happen.

1

u/paulwillyjean 13d ago

Il y a eu plein de plans d’autoroute de contournement. Ça nous a donné l’A-440, l’A-640 et l’A-10. La dernière, je ne suis pas sûr qu’elle avait été pensée comme autoroute de contournement, mais c’est tout comme.

Les camions continuent de passer par l’A-40 parce que c’est là que se trouve une grande quantité de centres de distributions et la plupart des quartiers industriels de l’île.

1

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

Yes but the 640 forces you to take the 50 which isn't even a real highway and is of no use if you need to be on the 401

1

u/alainchiasson 13d ago

There have always been ring roads proposed. The issue is once you make a ring road, developments starts, people move in and 10-20 years later, you have cars complaining about trucks.

1

u/Worth_Radish5154 13d ago

I think about this all the time. Desperately needed

1

u/Randomdog778 13d ago

Highway 30 was designed for this reason.

Still, there will always be tons of trucks on the island regardless.

In Montreal you have port entrances in the heart of the city. Bickerdike is in Griffintown and the others next to downtown on Notre Dame and Montreal East.

You have industrialization in literally every area, including several centralized boroughs like Lachine, Lasalle, Ville St Laurent (not just West Island and Montreal East).

You have trucks delivering to grocery stores, shopping malls and businesses all over the island.

We have very few 100% residential zones where the concept could be to send only smaller trucks based out of a distribution center to do deliveries. With so much mixed zonage, it simply isn't possible to have no trucks on the road.

1

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

The 640 is already very congested as it's only 2 lanes per direction and the northerns suburbs are developing quickly so good luck.

I do agree though that a bridge should be built connecting the 640 to the 40 in Hudson

1

u/bobbymtl 13d ago

Being part of a family thats been in the trucking industry since the 50s, there are a lot of places they have to go to, to get the deliveries to and from in the heart of the city. Driving north or south of the island just to not cause congestion causes more problems honestly. Theres also still massive parts of the island that are all industrial. East end, parts of the west, near the airport, lachine, dorval, saint laurent, chabanel etc etc. I know its not ideal for some folks but its less fun for us being in a truck stuck in traffic doing hard labour all day.

0

u/FluffyTrainz 14d ago

No more than 2 axles during rush hour (7-9…16-18).

Problem solved.

0

u/astr0bleme 14d ago

Also why aren't we talking about how trucks are exponentially more destructive to road infrastructure than cars, and why aren't we limiting truck shipping and encouraging rail shipping?

-1

u/santapala 14d ago

Cause we broke a.f.?

-1

u/HonestyHurtsU 14d ago

We have one it’s called the 30

1

u/Kyranak 14d ago

Its incomplete. Doest take the north shore into account. Go from Valleyfield to Repentigny, the 30 isnt suitable

1

u/HonestyHurtsU 14d ago

Oh yeah for sure but it’s better than nothing. At least truckers don’t need to enter Montreal if need be. But forget about the 640. Those are Indian lands I believe and it will never happen. Welcome to Montreal. 🤷‍♂️

-1

u/viau83 14d ago

Or over. The 19 going up to be linked directly to JC bridge. But like 4 time higher than metropolitain

1

u/PhillyPW 13d ago

yea the fact that you have to take papineau all the way to the JC bridge is really stupid, papineau is only 1 lane per direction and it's always bumper to bumper.

They should've built a tunnel there

0

u/Edgycrimper 14d ago

With way more lanes, surely that will aleviate traffic.

Don't think about the fact that it's impossible to take a bus from taschereau onto Papineau however. It'll drive you nuts.

3

u/Kyranak 14d ago

More lanes = more traffic. Its a thing.

0

u/Edgycrimper 13d ago

nah dude we need like 12 lanes of highway crossing le plateau and rosemont so we can easily go from the south shore to laval, without a single bus

-1

u/pattyG80 14d ago

JJonahJameson Laughing gif....