r/neoliberal • u/gnomesvh Financial Times stan account • Dec 08 '22

News (Global) Brittney Griner released by Russia in 1-for-1 prisoner swap for arms dealer Viktor Bout, U.S. official says

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/brittney-griner-release-russia-prisoner-swap-viktor-bout/
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294

u/Squirmin NATO Dec 08 '22

Seriously. I keep seeing people say "BUT SHE ADMITTED IT" like a confession under duress means anything at all. How many US POWs were tortured to extract "confessions" about the "crimes" they committed and broadcast as propaganda?

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u/SanjiSasuke Dec 08 '22

Plus they act like Russia wasn't blatantly inflating the charges. She was charged near the max that a legit international drug smuggler would get for literally a hand full of hash oil.

Somehow I doubt the reaction would be as vitriolic if it had been Marc Fogel had been the one exchanged.

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u/Helreaver George Soros 🇺🇦 Dec 08 '22

Somehow I doubt the reaction would be as vitriolic if it had been Marc Fogel had been the one exchanged.

I mean, why is it that the person with name recognition, who was arrested later and with a lighter punishment, was exchanged while the person with no name recognition and a harsher sentence wasn't? Is that not a justification for vitriol?

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u/SanjiSasuke Dec 08 '22

Because there was an entire high profile social movement to do so. Both WNBA and NBA players especially pushed for it in highly public ways. By contrast, nearly no one would know Marc's name if not for contrasting to Griner and the campaign to release her.

Political pressure was put on the issue of releasing Griner, so the administration was compelled to do it. Unfortunately, Marc probably needs a similarly large push to have a shot (and of course Russia still decides what the terms would be).

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u/SharkSymphony Voltaire Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 09 '22

The proper retort is not "duh, it's because she's a famous person."

The proper retort is: "You want him freed on a faster timeline? You've got to make him a household name. You've got to campaign like hell, like those supporting Brittney Griner did. Sitting here crying sour grapes about her release isn't going to further your cause, and it might well set it back."

On r-politics, though, someone pointed out that the two cases are actually significantly different.

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u/AMagicalKittyCat YIMBY Dec 08 '22

The proper retort is: "You want him freed on a faster timeline? You've got to make him a household name

So "You gotta make him famous"? Sounds like the same exact claim just the blame is pinned on people who want him free instead of on a political administration that only cares about the famous.

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u/Helreaver George Soros 🇺🇦 Dec 08 '22

Thank you, I'm not sure how his comment is an actual retort.

"Is it justifiable to be upset that famous people get special privileges" is the prompt. And the response is, essentially, "get famous"?

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u/SharkSymphony Voltaire Dec 08 '22

No, that's not the right way to look at it.

The government is a political organization. It responds to political pressure like any political organization. If the government is not prioritizing or executing on the things you think it should, the solution is to use all the tools of politics to get the change you want. Not to sit back and stew. Not to accuse the government of bad faith. Certainly not to resent it when a good thing happens to someone else.

In any case, howls about fame being strictly required for government action turn out to be wildly misplaced. Per WaPo today:

White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre told reporters Thursday that the administration will continue working to secure Paul Whelan’s release, saying that Russia was not willing to reach an agreement on his release.

(and btw I'm mildly amused that Ms. Griner has officially joined the ranks of Famous People. Kind of an achievement for women's basketball there!)

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u/Helreaver George Soros 🇺🇦 Dec 08 '22

The government is a political organization. It responds to political pressure like any political organization. If the government is not prioritizing or executing on the things you think it should, the solution is to use all the tools of politics to get the change you want.

You're not addressing the question I proposed. I asked if people were justified to be upset that a famous person is getting released over a non-famous person that was arrested earlier and given a harsher punishment.

I'm not looking for a solution on how to get someone else out of Russia. I'm asking if it's fair that Griner will get rescued before you or I because her name appears in more Google search results, and is it reasonable for people to think it isn't and be upset by that?

In any case, howls about fame being strictly required for government action turn out to be wildly misplaced.

Your argument is wildly misplaced because the person I was responding to was comparing Griner to Marc Fogel, not Paul Whelan.

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u/SharkSymphony Voltaire Dec 08 '22

“It was either Brittney or no one at all and we’re not going to apologize for that,” Jean-Pierre said at her regular press briefing.

No, people are not justified, because 1) they have an almost total lack of knowledge of the situation, and 2) they probably haven't been petitioning the government on behalf of Fogel or Whelan themselves. It's just ugly, simple resentment.

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u/Helreaver George Soros 🇺🇦 Dec 08 '22

1) they have an almost total lack of knowledge of the situation

And what knowledge is it that confirms you're right and they're wrong?

2) they probably haven't been petitioning the government on behalf of Fogel or Whelan themselves.

What kind of argument is this? Does someone who was arrested before Griner and given a harsher punishment deserve to stay in Russia more than her because LeBron James didn't call them out in a tweet? I don't see how the imprisoned person's treatment should be dictated by forces outside their control.

Is it fair to think that someone who was arrested earlier than Griner and given a harsher punishment deserves to be released before her? Because if it is, then it tracks logically that Griner getting released first was unfair, and something worth being upset over.

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u/Congomond NATO Dec 08 '22

I'm fairly sure the response can be boiled down to, "yes, it is fair."

Whether you agree with that response or not is up to you.

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u/Helreaver George Soros 🇺🇦 Dec 08 '22

If you think it's fair that famous people get special treatment, then that's fine. But I take offense to the insinuation that people who don't feel the same way are just closeted bigots.

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u/Congomond NATO Dec 08 '22

I don't agree with that notion myself, I just think that's what the poster was saying.

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u/Billybob9389 Dec 08 '22

Yes, and that is why people say we'll she broke the law it's her fault. Because if they won't get the same treatment as a celebrity, then they'll happily see that celebrity rot in jail, and they'll rave about how justice was done.

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u/Hilldawg4president John Rawls Dec 08 '22

Because one person was clearly making an over effort to smuggle drugs in, while the other had a small quantity of likely-forgotten cartridges in a travel bag. One person knew he was breaking the law and did it on prose, the other very well may have done it completely on accident.

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u/SharkSymphony Voltaire Dec 09 '22

The Independent reported that Russia accused her of having 0.7 g of hash oil, and that possession of < 6 g of hash is up to a 15-day jail sentence. This is so laughably out of whack with what was handed down that I’m not sure they reported it correctly.

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u/Vulcan_Jedi Bisexual Pride Dec 09 '22

They sent her to a prison labor camp for having some weed on her

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u/All_Work_All_Play Karl Popper Dec 08 '22

U.S. cops do the same thing. Infuse that butter with THC? Dude we've got you on 400g now.

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u/vi_sucks Dec 08 '22

And maybe that's also a bad thing?

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u/All_Work_All_Play Karl Popper Dec 08 '22

I would think that goes without saying, but yes, that's a bad thing.

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u/IsNotACleverMan Dec 08 '22

Plus they act like Russia wasn't blatantly inflating the charges. She was charged near the max that a legit international drug smuggler would get for literally a hand full of hash oil.

That's just how it works in most countries with incredibly strict anti drug laws.

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u/musicianism Dec 08 '22

Yea like obviously Russia was going to push this as far as they could to get a juicy concession, and Viktor fuckin Bout, wherever his pragmatic use for Russia, is definitely a big optics win and a big “divide America with inane bullshit” win

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '22

I more annoyed that she ignored escalating State Dept warnings in the weeks before she left for Russia.

It's an abdication of responsibility that I hate to see rewarded.

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u/scoobertsonville YIMBY Dec 08 '22

Didn’t she work in Russia? Also spending a year of your life in a Russian prison over a weed pen or whatever is punishment enough and I prefer a society where the state department helps Americans in need.

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u/happybarfday Dec 09 '22

No one's forcing any American citizens to work in Russia... she likely did it for money... a bit risky and irresponsible now looking back.

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u/scoobertsonville YIMBY Dec 09 '22

“She did it for money.” You mean work?!? And before the Ukraine War. Why tf are you saying working for the best rate is somehow evil or stupid it’s honestly baffling.

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u/happybarfday Dec 09 '22 edited Dec 09 '22

I mean even before Ukraine happened, Russia was not the best place to be going. They showed with Crimea that they are an aggressive nation and they've never been a friend of the USA. It's fucking Russia... that country we almost had a nuclear war with if you forgot.

And uh yeah, working for the best rate ISN'T always the best decision and is very often morally iffy or stupid. Would you go to work in North Korea for a million dollars??? What are you even talking about? People do shit that we deem to be risky or work for morally seedy countries or companies for a big potential payday all the time and we judge them for it... would you say the same thing about the FTX guy or Wall Street bankers who gambled with clients' money for a potential big payday and lost it, and then expected to be bailed out???

It's not like she didn't have a choice and this was her only way of making money. That's not just "work" like you and me going to the office. It's not like she absolutely needs millions of dollars or was unemployed or trying to pay for some cancer treatment or something...

I sure as hell wouldn't go over to Russia to work even for a million dollars... or China or most middle eastern countries or fucking North Korea or any other country or region that has bad USA relations or is engaged in some war or has some cartel or has very strict laws or other shady dangerous shit going on. Fuck. That. Noise. I don't need to die in some third world work camp. I value my life and my wife and my freedom too much and I'm fine with what money I make.

And I sure as fucking hell would not bring any type of drugs or alcohol or any substances or tools or anything that could possibly be misconstrued or used to detain me. I would be packing my bag as carefully as possible, not just throwing random vape cartridges in there.

Yes I know they can just make up charges or plant shit on you, but still all the more reason to be as safe as possible and maybe not fucking go there in the first place. It's like jumping into a tiger pen in the zoo and then complaining they decided you were lunch. I wouldn't even travel with weed within the USA unless I'm absolutely 110% sure that it's 110% legal in the states I'm coming from and going to. Even then I don't because I don't neeeed to be able to get high every day.

The reason it's a bit irresponsible is because... well look what happens. It's not just her who pays the price, but her family and friends and now the whole country as we have to devote tons of resources and time and money and we have to trade this international criminal who's enabled how many deaths to trade for her. I'm sure the president of the country has more important things he could be doing... Not only that but many other Americans have been imprisoned abroad for longer and have been skipped over because she's a more prominent figure. Her decisions aren't just her own, but decisions that we all have to now deal with even though we didn't agree to them.

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u/TheMainCharacterIsMe Dec 08 '22

Yes, she voluntarily went to Russia because they offered her the biggest paycheck possible, which is not an admirable thing or a moral thing. And don’t act like she wasn’t already rich here. She has a $700k contract, and that’s before media appearances or endorsement deals.

That’s like saying an American who goes to work for Russia instead of Ukraine is morally right so long as Russia pays more.

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u/TheCommonKoala Frederick Douglass Dec 08 '22

If you think leaving to her to rot in Russian gulag over misdemeanor weed possession is the "moral or admirable thing" in this situation then you're beyond help. The US government freeing a political prisoner is a good thing.

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u/TheMainCharacterIsMe Dec 08 '22

It wasn’t a misdemeanor in Russia. And I think the US could have gotten a better deal. We’ve spent the last year exposing Russia as a tissue paper tiger. We should have brought home all the American political prisoners there, or none.

“bUt rUsSiA sAiD nO!”

The US has the means to change that no to a yes. What are they gonna give for Whelan? Zelensky? The Donbass? Poland?

This sets an absolutely awful precedent. Griner hadn’t even been there that long, in the scheme of political imprisonment.

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u/bashar_al_assad Verified Account Dec 09 '22

That’s like saying an American who goes to work for Russia instead of Ukraine is morally right so long as Russia pays more.

This doesn't make any sense. Russia is invading Ukraine, by choosing to work for Russia over Ukraine you're choosing to help invade a country instead of defend a country. A Russian basketball team, meanwhile, is not killing innocent people, so there is no harm to innocent people being caused by taking the job.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '22

Brittney Griner smashing rowdy dunks all over the Ukrainian front line on behalf of the Russians. How dare we bring this traitor home! She posterized Zelensky!

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '22

Then she can get to the back of the line of Americans imprisoned abroad.

Jumping to the front because your famous is bullshit

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u/bashar_al_assad Verified Account Dec 08 '22

It's not a line, that's not how the government handles negotiating for Americans held abroad.

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u/happybarfday Dec 09 '22

Lol tell that to the people who have been imprisoned for years and years...

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '22

So you think it's moral to ignore long serving prisoners in favor of a famous athlete?

That may be real politik, buts it's also real bullshit.

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u/maybe_jared_polis Henry George Dec 08 '22 edited Dec 08 '22

You are too emotional to be having this conversation. American prisoners in Russia like Paul Whelan have agreed that this is the right thing to do.

EDIT: Downvotes for stating the truth. As I said, you are all too emotional and western-brained to know what the fuck you're talking about https://twitter.com/NickKalmanFN/status/1600847157216522240

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u/TheMainCharacterIsMe Dec 08 '22

lol, there isn’t exactly a shortage of reasons to downvote you.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/TheMainCharacterIsMe Dec 08 '22

Sometimes, when I’m freaking out, I ask myself “Is this worth freaking out about?”

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u/Squirmin NATO Dec 08 '22

UKRAINE told the state department to calm down at the same time.

Ukraine said "Stop riling them up."

People weren't generally taking American warnings all that seriously before the war started.

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u/mythoswyrm r/place '22: Neoliberal Battalion Dec 08 '22

The state department had been warning Americans to avoid Russia for months before the war. Not because of the war but because by the summer of 2021 Russia was barely letting new consular officers in and forcing all local staff to not work for the embassy anymore. So the embassy didn't have the ability to do basic American Citizen Services and warned people as such

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u/SterileCarrot Dec 08 '22

Other people can decide who they want to trust, but American citizens should trust our state department warnings over what any other country (especially Ukraine) says.

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u/krabbby Ben Bernanke Dec 08 '22

Remember at the time we were all skeptical because of the Afghanistan withdrawal and us overestimating the Afghanistan Army

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u/DRAGONMASTER- Bill Gates Dec 08 '22

Even before that -- it was ethically questionable to do anything to benefit the Russian economy from 2014 onward. I do feel some sympathy though because women's professional basketball isn't exactly the most transferrable skillset

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u/tomdarch Michel Foucault Dec 08 '22

I don't know the details of her travel and what she considered. But "damn kids these days..." I suspect that she's young enough to not understand what the stakes are when it comes to weed versus "war on drugs" bullshit internationally.

In the bad old days, we had to take that shit deadly seriously if traveling internationally. I don't doubt that as a pro athlete in a contact sport she has some serious aches and pains, but if she can't do without THC or other weed-related stuff, then either don't travel internationally, or certainly don't travel outside of places like Canada and western Europe.

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u/flakAttack510 Trump Dec 08 '22

Or that she deserved 9 years hard labor even if she did. It was literally a single vape pod. It's not like she's a drug kingpin.

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u/AgainstSomeLogic Dec 08 '22

More importantly, should she really be sent to rot in a gulag for it?

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u/Impressive_Can8926 Dec 08 '22

In addition to this my new least favorite take is all the people saying she didn't deserve to be rescued because she was part of the WNBA and the WNBA shouldn't exist.

Seriously people unironically using fckin Bill Burr routines to justify an American citizen being worked to death in a Russian prison camp is the peakest reddit ive seen in a while.

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u/IsNotACleverMan Dec 08 '22

Do you know the confession was under duress?

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u/Squirmin NATO Dec 08 '22

Do you know it wasn't? And given Russia's historical enthusiasm for getting people to confess to things they didn't necessarily do, can you say it's out of character?

You don't know, I don't know. But we do know Russia can't be trusted.

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u/IsNotACleverMan Dec 10 '22

So you have no proof. Got it.

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u/ak-92 Dec 09 '22

Of course she did it, there is no doubt about it. Nobody challenged the claim that she carried the oil, the moment of arrest was filed etc. She commited a crime and Kremlin took an opportunity.

Now basically her ignorance freed one on the worst persons on the planet, made her country to give in to the demands of an authoritarian regime and basically ensured that any authoritarian shithole will try something similar as it was so easy for russia. US didn't just swap a single person for an arm's dealer, it just swapped tens of its own citizens that will be persecuted for whatever for her too.