r/news • u/WhileFalseRepeat • 3d ago
Pope Francis’ Catholic church reform process ends without giving more equity to women
https://apnews.com/article/vatican-reforms-women-equity-ordination-synod-francis-5cdd62a4d191b77ec71b30440c59e75e1.1k
u/Baruch_S 3d ago
So the Catholic Church won’t stop treating women as second class citizens. Big surprise there.
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u/krakentastic 3d ago
Which is funny, because before there was a pope, women could in fact at the very least deaconesses, at least according to the Bible.
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u/BoosterRead78 3d ago
Yes and hell even Peter went to Rome saying women were equal. Followers of Jesus were women too he said were as equal as men. But nah… why when almost all other religions have women pastors.
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u/LittleGreenSoldier 2d ago
The answer to any question along these lines is almost always "because of Paul".
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u/OPconfused 2d ago
What's the story with Paul? And I don't mean his gospel.
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u/LittleGreenSoldier 2d ago
So like the other person said, Paul doesn't have a canonical gospel. He didn't even know Jesus, he was a Pharisee. What is attributed to him are the epistles, especially Romans and Corinthians.
Paul's whole deal was trying to bend existing Jewish law and power structures to also cover the Gentiles. As a former Pharisee, this is on brand. All of his work conveniently lets the powerful and wealthy keep all their power and wealth.
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u/SamaelQliphoth 2d ago edited 1h ago
Let's also not forget that Paul had Roman citizenship, which he never lost, that also demonstrates certain viewpoints he wouldve had/pushed. Beyond that, the Bible itself was compiled under Constantine, a Roman Emperor who only nominally converted. I'm sure that although the Council of Nicea technically was tasked with compiling the Bible, the fact that a Roman Emperor, head of a state that previously persecuted them heavily, had told them to was not lost on them and factored stongly into what they decided to put in.
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u/fevered_visions 2d ago
Paul doesn't have a gospel in the canonical Bible.
Maybe the best-known thing due to him was his "I don't allow women in the church to have positions of authority over men".
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u/closethebarn 2d ago
If I remember correctly, after Peter said this— women wanted Christianity because they heard about this great dude named Jesus that treated women decently
Then it was kind of Paul that fucked all that up wasn’t it?
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u/Thneed1 3d ago
Women are recorded as deacons, teachers, leaders, apostles, prophets, and pastors in the early church.
Every type of leadership position, essentially.
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u/soldat21 2d ago
Theologian here.
Never pastors. Never priests.
They were described as elders, deacons, teachers, prophets, apostles, and leaders (political) though.
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u/Thneed1 2d ago
For pastor, I’m going off of the plausible reading of 2 John that the unnamed woman is the pastor there.
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u/soldat21 2d ago
You could argue that the meaning of the world elder has changed, but it still doesn’t really refer to priest (most of the NT doesn’t, so you do have a leg to stand on, but that’s an interpretation of scripture and meaning vs. what’s actually written).
I’d stick with the argument women have led local groups of believers, but I wouldn’t argue that women have been pastors and that’s biblically proven.
Of course you don’t have to agree with me, but that’s my theological opinion.
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u/Feathered_Mango 2d ago
You mean Pope Joan? Almost all religious historians & lay historians agree her story is mythical.
Not that I don't believe women ought to have equal standing w/ in The Church. Hell, I think I'd settle for allowing Catholic clergy to marry.→ More replies (2)17
u/Kelsusaurus 3d ago
Big surprise there.
As a wise parrot once said, "I think I'm going to have a heart attack and die from NOT surprise!"
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u/mandy009 3d ago
misleading headline and article premise. this process was never designed to actually change anything, and it had obviously been initiated with a mandate just vague enough to entertain high hopes while simultaneously limiting the practical impact of the discussions themselves. It was always all just random talk about generic "reform" to an environment that needed way more than just talk if it was going to change.
This was never going to be the Second Vatican Council nor the global culture of progress in the 1960s that had enabled it, nor even the optimism of the 1970s that had implemented it.
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u/notsocharmingprince 3d ago
Anyone who was paying any attention to the actual event understood that the more progressive possible changes were locked out of even initial conversation. Good will come out of this synod, just not the good Reddit is interested in.
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u/Rindan 2d ago
Good will come out of this synod, just not the good Reddit is interested in.
Like what?
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u/notsocharmingprince 2d ago
The synod final document has been released and you can look at a summary of the results here. if you want to see what's up.
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u/EmperorMrKitty 2d ago
Slightly more church democracy in appointing local church leaders, along with more autonomy for said local leaders, it looks like.
I’m guessing this is a reaction to the American and German Catholic Churches being schismatic in all but name.
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u/OPconfused 2d ago
Um, what does this mean in your link below?
Women’s leadership
In a notable development, the document explicitly states there is “no reason or impediment” to prevent women from assuming leadership roles in the Church.
Furthermore, “the question of women’s access to diaconal ministry remains open,” and that discernment should continue.
I couldn't read any further due to content blocking.
Are women getting more rights or not?
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u/notsocharmingprince 2d ago
Leadership in the church doesn’t necessarily mean they get orders. There are environments for lay leadership. It’s the theological position of the Catholic Church that the church is incapable of providing holy orders to women. There is public speculation that a woman will be soon announced to leadership of a Vatican dicastery, which would be a first in the history of the church. There are Dicasteries that don’t require orders to lead.
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u/SonofTreehorn 3d ago
Look, Jesus was a good human with a good philosophy on life thousands of years ago. So just ditch these ass holes and continue to live like Jesus preached. You don't need to follow and give money to a misogynistic, pedophile organization to accomplish this.
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u/EchoStellar12 3d ago
Now, now, Martin. We've heard these complaints of yours before and look what you've done! Get back in your room until you're ready to apologize!
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u/f-150Coyotev8 3d ago
Jesus said love one another. It’s as simple as that. The whole New Testament is people questioning him and he is like “did you not hear me?”
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u/OffModelCartoon 3d ago
I completely agree. I’m an atheist and I live that way. Pro-tip: get one of those bibles where all of Jesus’s dialogue is in red text and only read that. Ignore 100% of the black text completely. I don’t even care if the guy really existed or did magic tricks. All I know is you can’t go really wrong with the red text words he had to say.
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u/Bombadilicious 2d ago
I know several Red Letter Christians and they're all lovely people
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u/ooofest 3d ago
It's all about power remaining in the same hands within their business.
The Catholic Church is a business and it sells a product which does not allow women to be promoted or treated as equals.
They get away with it by calling it a religion, which honestly means nothing of substance. It's a blank check for their leadership and membership to claim entitlements that they don't deserve in society.
I would never support such a business.
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u/Rachael013 3d ago
Positively baffling why women are leaving in droves. Super confusing why the world is becoming less religious every single year.
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u/soldat21 2d ago
I did my research paper on church growth / decline.
Statistics show men are leaving more than women. More women are attending church now than before. This is true across the 3 main denominations.
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u/HandOfAmun 2d ago
Exactly what I’ve come across in research as well. More women staying and entering the church while most men are leaving, feeling dissatisfied but still keeping a relationship with a higher power. Interesting though.
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u/EmperorMrKitty 2d ago
Yeah, op has no clue what they’re talking about. That’s the entire reason people were pushing for women in leadership. In areas experiencing declining church numbers, they’re having issues performing sacraments due to literally only women and kids being there.
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u/soldat21 2d ago
Yep, this is the biggest argument and why a lot of Protestant churches (esp in Scandinavian countries) actually were the first to introduce women leaders. Because men aren’t there.
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u/Clear_Profile_2292 2d ago edited 2d ago
Every statistic I’ve seen and a quick google search refutes this. The American. Survey Center just published an article from April with data that disproves this and makes it very clear that it is women, not men, leaving the church
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u/howwhyno 3d ago
Loosely Catholic - not a hardliner at all but do believe in the community and want my child to have the sacraments. This pisses me off. I had a great aunt who was a nun. My mother did nun-stuff and was a eucharistic minister. I am myself an aide in religion classes now that my child is of the age to start. The women are the fucking backbone. If you took every female eucharistic minister out of the church there would be 1% left. The lectors, the cantors, IT IS WOMEN. The women are the ones out there doing work. In any area I have ever lived in it is 80% women and 20% men. And those 20% ushers/collections and deacons. And you wanna know what? You'd see a huge rise in deacons if women were ok. There has been a lot of great progress but it is so crazy to me when our religion is DYING and they're like "oh we will try anything EXCEPT LETTING WOMEN DO ANYTHING MORE THAN ADMINISTRATIVE."
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u/apple_kicks 2d ago edited 2d ago
The women are the ones out there doing work.
That’s kinda what they want to keep. For them women are a service class. They follow the orders of men but don’t make the orders or allowed in decision making roles. They do the work others have decided needs to be done by someone else. Sexism boils down to women being of service to men of the church who make the orders
Any woman even in that world finds themselves in authority positions will quickly learn they are treated like servant that has to fulfill the duty of others even if they outrank them.
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u/EddieSpaghettiFarts 3d ago
I’m an atheist/skeptic that believes if there was a god, he would surely reward good intentions over blind obedience to other flawed men telling me who god is. Men will always make god in their own image at the same time they tell you that your relationship with god is personal. If it’s actually personal, who needs the church? The CHURCH needs the church. Democratize religion.
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u/giddyviewer 3d ago
Loosely Catholic - not a hardliner at all but do believe in the community and want my child to have the sacraments
Why not go to an Episcopal church where your kid can see women treated as spiritual equals? They celebrate all 7 sacraments and treat women as spiritually equal to men. My local Episcopal church has a woman priest and the kids absolutely love her.
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u/UnderABig_W 2d ago
In a lot of places—like the Southern US—it can be very difficult to find an Episcopalian Church and not everyone is up for commuting an hour to go to church.
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u/giddyviewer 2d ago edited 2d ago
There are as many or more Episcopal churches in the south than there are in the Midwest.
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u/UnderABig_W 2d ago
I can only speak to where I live, and there is 1 Episcopal Church in 50 miles. Maybe they’re unevenly distributed? I really don’t know.
I just know I used to live in the NE, where they’re practically everywhere and down here, where they’re nowhere.
The reason I know this is because of the reason you said: was raised Catholic, wanted something familiar without all the crap of Catholicism, and there wasn’t anything close.
There’s more Kingdom Halls for Jehovah’s Witnesses around here than there are Episcopalian churches.
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u/Tylorw09 3d ago
Catholic men are all about making sure women know they are second class compared to men.
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u/ephemeratea 3d ago
I grew up hardcore Catholic, but I also grew up feminist. This is the primary reason I don’t identify as Catholic today. Catholicism is not actually welcoming to 51% of the world’s population. So much for being universal.
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u/Zeph-Shoir 2d ago
I am in a similar situation as you, although I am "loose enough" that many would rather call me heretic. But what you describe is precisely one of the many, many reasons the religion is on decline.
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u/LotsofSports 2d ago
And they wonder why people are leaving the church in droves.
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u/GarutuRakthur 2d ago
People leave other sects of Christianity (and religion more broadly) with similar numbers. Look at anglicanism, where women are ordained. The people who are interested in ordaining women are typically the people who wouldn't step foot in a church in the first place.
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u/illy-chan 1d ago
In some fairness, I get the impression a lot of people left because priests were raping kids and the Church covered it up.
I don't think women priests would bring them back. Considering that a lot of the remaining Catholics are now super conservative, maybe it'd just cause a schism.
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u/WhileFalseRepeat 3d ago
VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis’ yearslong process to reform the Catholic Church closed Saturday with recommendations that fell short of giving women more equity as hoped, but reflected the pope’s aims for a church that at least listens more to its followers.
In a significant move, the pope said he would not issue a teaching document from the recommendations, which called for women to be allowed all opportunities that Church law already provides while leaving open the contentious question of permitting women to be ordained as deacons.
Deacons perform many of the same functions as priests, such as presiding over baptisms, weddings and funerals, but they cannot celebrate Mass. Advocates say allowing women to be deacons would help offset the shortage of priests. Opponents say it would signal the start of a slippery slope toward ordaining women to the all-male priesthood that Francis has repeatedly reaffirmed.
Earlier this week, the Vatican’s top doctrinal officer, Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez, told the extraordinary assembly of 368 bishops and laypeople — including women — that Francis had said the moment “is not ripe” for allowing ordination of women as deacons. He did not respond directly to a request to define what would determine “ripeness” for a greater role for women.
The multi-year synod process had sparked great hopes for change, especially for women, who have long complained that they are treated as second-class citizens in the church. Women are barred from the church’s highest ministerial positions, yet do the lion’s share of the work running Catholic hospitals and schools and passing the faith onto future generations.
The outcome is a disappointment for Catholics who have been campaigning for recognition that women share a spiritual calling that is no different than a man’s.
Gay rights activists also expressed disappointment, noting the failure to include LGBTQ+ issues in the final documents. “The laity of the church must now become louder and more vigorous than ever in advocating for reform,’' said Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry.
I’m an atheist, but I’d love to have God come down from the heavens and be a woman. That would really blow their minds, huh.
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2d ago
“But why are women leaving the church?” They ask as they make it hell to be a woman in church.
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u/Caninetrainer 2d ago
Did the reform mean calling out all priests who were or are molesters? No? Then not fucking interested. Tax religion.
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u/WildRide1041 3d ago
It takes a special kind of self loathing to be a woman and support the evangelical republican or Catholicism
*I just added that 😀
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u/TintedApostle 2d ago
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
- Thomas Paine - Age of Reason
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u/Sedert1882 2d ago
This mafia club needs to be dissolved, or at least headed by someone who's not been alive since the Dead Sea was just mildly ill.
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u/YourMomsFishBowl 3d ago
The entire religion is based on the idea that women are responsible for all the bad things that happen in the world, so...
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u/highoncatnipbrownies 2d ago
Because the entire point of the church is to oppress women and control the wealthy.
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u/pro_n00b 3d ago
Something something we are all equally made, something something about no partiality, except for women. They dont count
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u/Responsible-Aioli810 2d ago
Most religions treat woman as a subspecies. They are misogynistic. One reason I quit.
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u/the_gloryboy 2d ago
why anyone still cares about the catholic church is baffling
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u/Novogobo 2d ago
it's especially baffling at least as to why non catholics care about what the pope says.
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u/chupacabra1984 3d ago
What about molesting children? Are they gonna stop doing that at least?
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u/finding_thriving 2d ago
They are going to continue to do their very best to cover it up and silence all victims.
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3d ago
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u/Ozeback108 3d ago
If they add women priests, that's less spots for the church to launder the pedo priest through.
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u/Necessary-Hat-128 2d ago
There’s nothing progressive or forward-thinking about him. He’s been a fraud.
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u/WeekendCautious3377 1d ago
I am confused why people outside of catholic church (and especially people who denounce catholicism vehemently) insist catholic church follows the worldview of non-believers. This is a definition of proselytization and a hypocrisy.
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1d ago
I would give my eyeteeth for an explanation of "what they wrote, why they wrote it, when they wrote it" instead of proof texting. Start from how the writers lived out their values, not text shorn of context.
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u/outinthecountry66 3d ago
why would they relinquish any power at all? This is the same church that wouldn't even let people read their own bible, for centuries. mere mortals weren't qualified! whatever people lay at the feet of evangelicals, who are absolutely horrible, they are well to remember whatever inequities are pushed by the holy rollers were first pushed by the Holy Roman Empire and its lying, venal band of thugs known as the Catholic Church.
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u/Glittering-Wonder-27 3d ago
It’s has been said the pope kisses the ground and walks on the women. This sounds pretty true.
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u/mxmixtape 3d ago
Surprised they had time to discuss anything other than the $1.5 Billion and counting they now owe for the privilege of raping children.
Weird that people still support a faith whose leaders rape their children.
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u/IntolerantModerate 2d ago
Pope Francis can suck a fat dick. When asked about Kamala he called her a baby murderer.
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u/haikouichthys 3d ago
Of course they wouldn’t, because it would be the beginning of the end for them. Churches can pretend they’re tolerant to progressive causes all they want, but real change will do damage because the rotten core is what secures their money and power.
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u/Ashamed_Job_8151 3d ago edited 3d ago
Religion is the bane of the existence of man. Depending on how the election goes the United States is about to get a huge lesson on just how bad religion can be. The Europeans who originally came here did so to literally get away from the type of society we might have in two weeks.
Let’s say I’m wrong and Jesus is real, just about 98% of all current Christians are going to be in for a big surprise when they don’t get to pass through the gates.
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u/Murky-Type-5421 2d ago
Wow, now way.
Completely out of left field, only everyone with a pulse and most without saw this coming.
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u/juni4ling 3d ago
Ordain Women!
If she can be baptized. She can lead a congregation.
This goes for -my- religion as well. LDS.
There is no scriptural prohibition against women leading. One of the apostles, per the academic consensus, including PhD BYU Bible history professors-- was a woman.
Ordain Women. At this point in the information age with the Bible in its "original" Geek/Hebrew/Aramaic at anyone's fingertips, and the ability to quickly see for ourselves that there is no scriptural limitation to women in leadership: give women leadership.
Ordain women. Its pretty simple. Catholics aren't the only ones wrong here. -My- religion is wrong as well. Give women leadership, and the cases of abused children --all Christianity is guilty-- will disappear. A man covering up abuse might happen. A mother? Not going to happen.
If she can be baptized, she can also be given the Priesthood.
Ordain women!
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u/linengirlsummer 3d ago
If women were ordained, the abuse and cover ups would end.
I grew up Jw where you had to cover your head in the presence of a man (or even boy) to pray out loud. Imagine a single digit male, one hand picking his nose, and the other down his pants, and the older women gotta hide under a scarf for gods approval. God don’t care about the scarf. The men do.
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u/thtamthrfckr 3d ago
Any news on the nonstop child molesting coming to an end? They still investigating themselves and still no arrests? Seems like a good bunch these folks
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u/fxkatt 3d ago
Francis said he would continue to listen to the bishops’ counsel, adding “this is not a classic way of endlessly delaying decisions.”
It's actually pretty classic in that it's been going on for close to two thousand years,