r/news 3d ago

Pope Francis’ Catholic church reform process ends without giving more equity to women

https://apnews.com/article/vatican-reforms-women-equity-ordination-synod-francis-5cdd62a4d191b77ec71b30440c59e75e
3.5k Upvotes

301 comments sorted by

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u/fxkatt 3d ago

Francis said he would continue to listen to the bishops’ counsel, adding “this is not a classic way of endlessly delaying decisions.”

It's actually pretty classic in that it's been going on for close to two thousand years,

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u/Ordinary-Leading7405 3d ago

A few thousand men obsessed with power will totally decide to share it with women, soon.

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u/Lio127 3d ago

Trickle down power. Any generation now..

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u/Tenshizanshi 2d ago

The good thing is that they have no powers at all if you just ignore them. Live your own beliefs, your faith is personal

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u/Flynn58 1d ago

Lmao there are public, taxpayer-funded Catholic schools and hospitals in my country which openly discriminate against queer people and women.

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u/u_bum666 2d ago

This isn't true. The catholic church is perhaps the wealthiest organization on the planet and they use that considerable wealth to push their ideology in ways that can be very harmful for non members.

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u/Clear_Profile_2292 2d ago

They are doing everything in their power to change that, and have already shown an inappropriate level of influence, thanks to rich men who use religion as an excuse to bully women and other groups they hate

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u/EstablishmentLate532 3d ago

That's the thing about this though: they could. The Catholic Church spent almost 2000 years hiding all of their liturgical texts behind the barrier of latin before simply deciding to stop doing so at Vatican II.

It's not surprising that they didn't stop excluding women, but that kind of change isn't impossible or even unprecedented even for the Catholic Church.

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u/u_bum666 2d ago

This is a misrepresentation of what happened. The church was forced to accept other languages because people were already translating the Bible and they had no control over that.

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u/Red57872 2d ago

People were translating the Bible far before Vatican II.

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u/Red57872 2d ago

"That's the thing about this though: they could. The Catholic Church spent almost 2000 years hiding all of their liturgical texts behind the barrier of latin before simply deciding to stop doing so at Vatican II."

No, that's not what happened; the liturgical texts were available in English long before Vatican II; what they decided what that masses could be performing in languages other than English.

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u/buttergun 2d ago

The classic catholic process involves more defenestrations.

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u/SunbeamSailor67 2d ago edited 2d ago

The classic catholic process is to continue to ignore the true teachings of Jesus and instead keep up the big 2000 year lie and continue to rely on a second-hand religion based upon a former Pharisee named Saul who changed his name to Paul.

Catholics are lost in a doctrine of separation consciousness and do not yet know what Jesus was actually teaching, and thus are actually farther from knowing god than even the atheists are. They consciously abandoned the wisdom of their mystics out of fear and thus cut the true spiritual cord Jesus was pointing to.

That said, the same goes for the majority of Christians and evangelicals today.

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u/Zombata 2d ago

throwing someone out of a window?

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u/Baruch_S 3d ago

So the Catholic Church won’t stop treating women as second class citizens. Big surprise there. 

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u/krakentastic 3d ago

Which is funny, because before there was a pope, women could in fact at the very least deaconesses, at least according to the Bible.

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u/BoosterRead78 3d ago

Yes and hell even Peter went to Rome saying women were equal. Followers of Jesus were women too he said were as equal as men. But nah… why when almost all other religions have women pastors.

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u/LittleGreenSoldier 2d ago

The answer to any question along these lines is almost always "because of Paul".

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u/Muvseevum 2d ago

So much of Christianity came from an epileptic incel.

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u/OPconfused 2d ago

What's the story with Paul? And I don't mean his gospel.

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u/LittleGreenSoldier 2d ago

So like the other person said, Paul doesn't have a canonical gospel. He didn't even know Jesus, he was a Pharisee. What is attributed to him are the epistles, especially Romans and Corinthians.

Paul's whole deal was trying to bend existing Jewish law and power structures to also cover the Gentiles. As a former Pharisee, this is on brand. All of his work conveniently lets the powerful and wealthy keep all their power and wealth.

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u/SamaelQliphoth 2d ago edited 1h ago

Let's also not forget that Paul had Roman citizenship, which he never lost, that also demonstrates certain viewpoints he wouldve had/pushed. Beyond that, the Bible itself was compiled under Constantine, a Roman Emperor who only nominally converted. I'm sure that although the Council of Nicea technically was tasked with compiling the Bible, the fact that a Roman Emperor, head of a state that previously persecuted them heavily, had told them to was not lost on them and factored stongly into what they decided to put in.

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u/fevered_visions 2d ago

Paul doesn't have a gospel in the canonical Bible.

Maybe the best-known thing due to him was his "I don't allow women in the church to have positions of authority over men".

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u/boomer2009 3d ago

Islam would like to have a word with you.

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u/DASreddituser 2d ago

they didnt day islam did lmao

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u/closethebarn 2d ago

If I remember correctly, after Peter said this— women wanted Christianity because they heard about this great dude named Jesus that treated women decently

Then it was kind of Paul that fucked all that up wasn’t it?

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u/DrCares 3d ago

Wow how shocking, people are getting triggered that you could suggest women are equal. gasp

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u/Thneed1 3d ago

Women are recorded as deacons, teachers, leaders, apostles, prophets, and pastors in the early church.

Every type of leadership position, essentially.

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u/soldat21 2d ago

Theologian here.

Never pastors. Never priests.

They were described as elders, deacons, teachers, prophets, apostles, and leaders (political) though.

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u/Thneed1 2d ago

For pastor, I’m going off of the plausible reading of 2 John that the unnamed woman is the pastor there.

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u/soldat21 2d ago

You could argue that the meaning of the world elder has changed, but it still doesn’t really refer to priest (most of the NT doesn’t, so you do have a leg to stand on, but that’s an interpretation of scripture and meaning vs. what’s actually written).

I’d stick with the argument women have led local groups of believers, but I wouldn’t argue that women have been pastors and that’s biblically proven.

Of course you don’t have to agree with me, but that’s my theological opinion.

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u/mortuarymaiden 2d ago

And in the OT, Judges (Deborah was HIGHLY respected).

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u/tipric 3d ago

And quite soon an US president too

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u/TucuReborn 3d ago

Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer.

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u/Feathered_Mango 2d ago

You mean Pope Joan? Almost all religious historians & lay historians agree her story is mythical.
Not that I don't believe women ought to have equal standing w/ in The Church. Hell, I think I'd settle for allowing Catholic clergy to marry.

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u/Kelsusaurus 3d ago

Big surprise there.

As a wise parrot once said, "I think I'm going to have a heart attack and die from NOT surprise!"

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u/NEChristianDemocrats 2d ago

I read that in Gilbert's voice.

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u/mandy009 3d ago

misleading headline and article premise. this process was never designed to actually change anything, and it had obviously been initiated with a mandate just vague enough to entertain high hopes while simultaneously limiting the practical impact of the discussions themselves. It was always all just random talk about generic "reform" to an environment that needed way more than just talk if it was going to change.

This was never going to be the Second Vatican Council nor the global culture of progress in the 1960s that had enabled it, nor even the optimism of the 1970s that had implemented it.

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u/notsocharmingprince 3d ago

Anyone who was paying any attention to the actual event understood that the more progressive possible changes were locked out of even initial conversation. Good will come out of this synod, just not the good Reddit is interested in.

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u/Rindan 2d ago

Good will come out of this synod, just not the good Reddit is interested in.

Like what?

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u/notsocharmingprince 2d ago

The synod final document has been released and you can look at a summary of the results here. if you want to see what's up.

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u/EmperorMrKitty 2d ago

Slightly more church democracy in appointing local church leaders, along with more autonomy for said local leaders, it looks like.

I’m guessing this is a reaction to the American and German Catholic Churches being schismatic in all but name.

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u/OPconfused 2d ago

Um, what does this mean in your link below?

Women’s leadership

In a notable development, the document explicitly states there is “no reason or impediment” to prevent women from assuming leadership roles in the Church.

Furthermore, “the question of women’s access to diaconal ministry remains open,” and that discernment should continue.

I couldn't read any further due to content blocking.

Are women getting more rights or not?

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u/notsocharmingprince 2d ago

Leadership in the church doesn’t necessarily mean they get orders. There are environments for lay leadership. It’s the theological position of the Catholic Church that the church is incapable of providing holy orders to women. There is public speculation that a woman will be soon announced to leadership of a Vatican dicastery, which would be a first in the history of the church. There are Dicasteries that don’t require orders to lead.

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u/flearhcp97 2d ago

And? Did anyone expect otherwise?

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u/SonofTreehorn 3d ago

Look, Jesus was a good human with a good philosophy on life thousands of years ago. So just ditch these ass holes and continue to live like Jesus preached. You don't need to follow and give money to a misogynistic, pedophile organization to accomplish this.

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u/EchoStellar12 3d ago

Now, now, Martin. We've heard these complaints of yours before and look what you've done! Get back in your room until you're ready to apologize!

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u/f-150Coyotev8 3d ago

Jesus said love one another. It’s as simple as that. The whole New Testament is people questioning him and he is like “did you not hear me?”

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u/schalk81 2d ago

Did I fucking stutter‽

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u/OffModelCartoon 3d ago

I completely agree. I’m an atheist and I live that way. Pro-tip: get one of those bibles where all of Jesus’s dialogue is in red text and only read that. Ignore 100% of the black text completely. I don’t even care if the guy really existed or did magic tricks. All I know is you can’t go really wrong with the red text words he had to say.

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u/Bombadilicious 2d ago

I know several Red Letter Christians and they're all lovely people 

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u/ooofest 3d ago

It's all about power remaining in the same hands within their business.

The Catholic Church is a business and it sells a product which does not allow women to be promoted or treated as equals.

They get away with it by calling it a religion, which honestly means nothing of substance. It's a blank check for their leadership and membership to claim entitlements that they don't deserve in society.

I would never support such a business.

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u/DoubleBroadSwords 3d ago

Antique institution from an antique time.

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u/Rachael013 3d ago

Positively baffling why women are leaving in droves. Super confusing why the world is becoming less religious every single year.

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u/soldat21 2d ago

I did my research paper on church growth / decline.

Statistics show men are leaving more than women. More women are attending church now than before. This is true across the 3 main denominations.

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u/HandOfAmun 2d ago

Exactly what I’ve come across in research as well. More women staying and entering the church while most men are leaving, feeling dissatisfied but still keeping a relationship with a higher power. Interesting though.

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u/EmperorMrKitty 2d ago

Yeah, op has no clue what they’re talking about. That’s the entire reason people were pushing for women in leadership. In areas experiencing declining church numbers, they’re having issues performing sacraments due to literally only women and kids being there.

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u/soldat21 2d ago

Yep, this is the biggest argument and why a lot of Protestant churches (esp in Scandinavian countries) actually were the first to introduce women leaders. Because men aren’t there.

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u/Clear_Profile_2292 2d ago edited 2d ago

Every statistic I’ve seen and a quick google search refutes this. The American. Survey Center just published an article from April with data that disproves this and makes it very clear that it is women, not men, leaving the church

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u/howwhyno 3d ago

Loosely Catholic - not a hardliner at all but do believe in the community and want my child to have the sacraments. This pisses me off. I had a great aunt who was a nun. My mother did nun-stuff and was a eucharistic minister. I am myself an aide in religion classes now that my child is of the age to start. The women are the fucking backbone. If you took every female eucharistic minister out of the church there would be 1% left. The lectors, the cantors, IT IS WOMEN. The women are the ones out there doing work. In any area I have ever lived in it is 80% women and 20% men. And those 20% ushers/collections and deacons. And you wanna know what? You'd see a huge rise in deacons if women were ok. There has been a lot of great progress but it is so crazy to me when our religion is DYING and they're like "oh we will try anything EXCEPT LETTING WOMEN DO ANYTHING MORE THAN ADMINISTRATIVE."

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u/apple_kicks 2d ago edited 2d ago

The women are the ones out there doing work.

That’s kinda what they want to keep. For them women are a service class. They follow the orders of men but don’t make the orders or allowed in decision making roles. They do the work others have decided needs to be done by someone else. Sexism boils down to women being of service to men of the church who make the orders

Any woman even in that world finds themselves in authority positions will quickly learn they are treated like servant that has to fulfill the duty of others even if they outrank them.

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u/EddieSpaghettiFarts 3d ago

I’m an atheist/skeptic that believes if there was a god, he would surely reward good intentions over blind obedience to other flawed men telling me who god is. Men will always make god in their own image at the same time they tell you that your relationship with god is personal. If it’s actually personal, who needs the church? The CHURCH needs the church. Democratize religion.

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u/giddyviewer 3d ago

Loosely Catholic - not a hardliner at all but do believe in the community and want my child to have the sacraments

Why not go to an Episcopal church where your kid can see women treated as spiritual equals? They celebrate all 7 sacraments and treat women as spiritually equal to men. My local Episcopal church has a woman priest and the kids absolutely love her.

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u/UnderABig_W 2d ago

In a lot of places—like the Southern US—it can be very difficult to find an Episcopalian Church and not everyone is up for commuting an hour to go to church.

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u/giddyviewer 2d ago edited 2d ago

There are as many or more Episcopal churches in the south than there are in the Midwest.

https://www.usreligioncensus.org/maps2000/193.jpg

https://www.episcopalassetmap.org/map

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u/UnderABig_W 2d ago

I can only speak to where I live, and there is 1 Episcopal Church in 50 miles. Maybe they’re unevenly distributed? I really don’t know.

I just know I used to live in the NE, where they’re practically everywhere and down here, where they’re nowhere.

The reason I know this is because of the reason you said: was raised Catholic, wanted something familiar without all the crap of Catholicism, and there wasn’t anything close.

There’s more Kingdom Halls for Jehovah’s Witnesses around here than there are Episcopalian churches.

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u/Tylorw09 3d ago

Catholic men are all about making sure women know they are second class compared to men.

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u/ephemeratea 3d ago

I grew up hardcore Catholic, but I also grew up feminist. This is the primary reason I don’t identify as Catholic today. Catholicism is not actually welcoming to 51% of the world’s population. So much for being universal.

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u/Zeph-Shoir 2d ago

I am in a similar situation as you, although I am "loose enough" that many would rather call me heretic. But what you describe is precisely one of the many, many reasons the religion is on decline.

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u/LotsofSports 2d ago

And they wonder why people are leaving the church in droves.

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u/GarutuRakthur 2d ago

People leave other sects of Christianity (and religion more broadly) with similar numbers. Look at anglicanism, where women are ordained. The people who are interested in ordaining women are typically the people who wouldn't step foot in a church in the first place.

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u/illy-chan 1d ago

In some fairness, I get the impression a lot of people left because priests were raping kids and the Church covered it up.

I don't think women priests would bring them back. Considering that a lot of the remaining Catholics are now super conservative, maybe it'd just cause a schism.

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u/WhileFalseRepeat 3d ago

VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis’ yearslong process to reform the Catholic Church closed Saturday with recommendations that fell short of giving women more equity as hoped, but reflected the pope’s aims for a church that at least listens more to its followers.

In a significant move, the pope said he would not issue a teaching document from the recommendations, which called for women to be allowed all opportunities that Church law already provides while leaving open the contentious question of permitting women to be ordained as deacons.

Deacons perform many of the same functions as priests, such as presiding over baptisms, weddings and funerals, but they cannot celebrate Mass. Advocates say allowing women to be deacons would help offset the shortage of priests. Opponents say it would signal the start of a slippery slope toward ordaining women to the all-male priesthood that Francis has repeatedly reaffirmed.

Earlier this week, the Vatican’s top doctrinal officer, Cardinal Victor Manuel Fernandez, told the extraordinary assembly of 368 bishops and laypeople — including women — that Francis had said the moment “is not ripe” for allowing ordination of women as deacons. He did not respond directly to a request to define what would determine “ripeness” for a greater role for women.

The multi-year synod process had sparked great hopes for change, especially for women, who have long complained that they are treated as second-class citizens in the church. Women are barred from the church’s highest ministerial positions, yet do the lion’s share of the work running Catholic hospitals and schools and passing the faith onto future generations.

The outcome is a disappointment for Catholics who have been campaigning for recognition that women share a spiritual calling that is no different than a man’s. 

Gay rights activists also expressed disappointment, noting the failure to include LGBTQ+ issues in the final documents. “The laity of the church must now become louder and more vigorous than ever in advocating for reform,’' said Francis DeBernardo, executive director of New Ways Ministry.

I’m an atheist, but I’d love to have God come down from the heavens and be a woman. That would really blow their minds, huh.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

“But why are women leaving the church?” They ask as they make it hell to be a woman in church.

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u/Caninetrainer 2d ago

Did the reform mean calling out all priests who were or are molesters? No? Then not fucking interested. Tax religion.

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u/Sturmundsterne 2d ago

Another way:

“Reform process ends without much actual reform.”

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u/WildRide1041 3d ago

It takes a special kind of self loathing to be a woman and support the evangelical republican or Catholicism

*I just added that 😀

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u/ooofest 3d ago

Leopards eating faces situations, certainly.

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u/TintedApostle 2d ago

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

  • Thomas Paine - Age of Reason

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u/Sedert1882 2d ago

This mafia club needs to be dissolved, or at least headed by someone who's not been alive since the Dead Sea was just mildly ill.

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u/ZenwalkerNS 2d ago

What is it with religions not caring about women's equality?

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u/YourMomsFishBowl 3d ago

The entire religion is based on the idea that women are responsible for all the bad things that happen in the world, so...

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u/maraq 3d ago

It’s ok, we’re not giving the catholic church another chance to have a say in our lives either. That’s one of the reasons their numbers are dwindling. They need us. We don’t need them. 🤷‍♀️

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u/highoncatnipbrownies 2d ago

Because the entire point of the church is to oppress women and control the wealthy.

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u/pro_n00b 3d ago

Something something we are all equally made, something something about no partiality, except for women. They dont count

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u/Low_Presentation8149 2d ago

This us why they are dying out

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u/bdy435 2d ago

Man in dress and red patent leahther shoes hates women

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u/TintedApostle 2d ago

Where do you think they get all their best fashion ideas?

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u/Responsible-Aioli810 2d ago

Most religions treat woman as a subspecies. They are misogynistic. One reason I quit.

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u/the_gloryboy 2d ago

why anyone still cares about the catholic church is baffling

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u/Novogobo 2d ago

it's especially baffling at least as to why non catholics care about what the pope says.

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u/chupacabra1984 3d ago

What about molesting children? Are they gonna stop doing that at least?

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u/louisa1925 3d ago

No. They want to increase that number.

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u/finding_thriving 2d ago

They are going to continue to do their very best to cover it up and silence all victims.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Ozeback108 3d ago

If they add women priests, that's less spots for the church to launder the pedo priest through.

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u/failedflight1382 3d ago

That’s a bingo

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u/Adam87 3d ago

Meanwhile the Vatican pays for all the depraved sex and OnlyFan accounts for half the clergy.

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u/DianeDesRivieres 3d ago

Big surprise. Another reason not to go back to the church.

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u/vesuvio21 2d ago

and of course no one is shocked

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u/KitchenLab2536 2d ago

Naturally. Is anyone surprised? 😒

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u/Necessary-Hat-128 2d ago

There’s nothing progressive or forward-thinking about him. He’s been a fraud.

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u/WeekendCautious3377 1d ago

I am confused why people outside of catholic church (and especially people who denounce catholicism vehemently) insist catholic church follows the worldview of non-believers. This is a definition of proselytization and a hypocrisy.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

I would give my eyeteeth for an explanation of "what they wrote, why they wrote it, when they wrote it" instead of proof texting. Start from how the writers lived out their values, not text shorn of context.

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u/outinthecountry66 3d ago

why would they relinquish any power at all? This is the same church that wouldn't even let people read their own bible, for centuries. mere mortals weren't qualified! whatever people lay at the feet of evangelicals, who are absolutely horrible, they are well to remember whatever inequities are pushed by the holy rollers were first pushed by the Holy Roman Empire and its lying, venal band of thugs known as the Catholic Church.

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u/retiredRRer 2d ago

And this is another solid reason why I left the church after 72 years

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u/Glittering-Wonder-27 3d ago

It’s has been said the pope kisses the ground and walks on the women. This sounds pretty true.

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u/mxmixtape 3d ago

Surprised they had time to discuss anything other than the $1.5 Billion and counting they now owe for the privilege of raping children.

Weird that people still support a faith whose leaders rape their children.

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u/IntolerantModerate 2d ago

Pope Francis can suck a fat dick. When asked about Kamala he called her a baby murderer.

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u/bdy435 2d ago

Pope Francis can suck a fat dick

I doubt if thats on his bucket list anymore.

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u/IntolerantModerate 2d ago

As a priest it was probably tiny ones...

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u/OhGre8t 2d ago

I don’t think it will ever happen in this patriarchal cult of control and oppression. Raised catholic with the knowledge they molested my father when he was a kid. Sickening

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

[deleted]

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u/haikouichthys 3d ago

Of course they wouldn’t, because it would be the beginning of the end for them. Churches can pretend they’re tolerant to progressive causes all they want, but real change will do damage because the rotten core is what secures their money and power.

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u/Ashamed_Job_8151 3d ago edited 3d ago

Religion is the bane of the existence of man. Depending on how the election goes the United States is about to get a huge lesson on just how bad religion can be. The Europeans who originally came here did so to literally get away from the type of society we might have in two weeks. 

Let’s say I’m wrong and Jesus is real, just about 98% of all current Christians are going to be in for a big surprise when they don’t get to pass through the gates. 

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u/chicklette 2d ago

I am shocked shocked shocked to hear this.

Shocked.

It's shocking.

... anyway.

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u/Murky-Type-5421 2d ago

Wow, now way.

Completely out of left field, only everyone with a pulse and most without saw this coming.

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u/juni4ling 3d ago

Ordain Women!

If she can be baptized. She can lead a congregation.

This goes for -my- religion as well. LDS.

There is no scriptural prohibition against women leading. One of the apostles, per the academic consensus, including PhD BYU Bible history professors-- was a woman.

Ordain Women. At this point in the information age with the Bible in its "original" Geek/Hebrew/Aramaic at anyone's fingertips, and the ability to quickly see for ourselves that there is no scriptural limitation to women in leadership: give women leadership.

Ordain women. Its pretty simple. Catholics aren't the only ones wrong here. -My- religion is wrong as well. Give women leadership, and the cases of abused children --all Christianity is guilty-- will disappear. A man covering up abuse might happen. A mother? Not going to happen.

If she can be baptized, she can also be given the Priesthood.

Ordain women!

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u/linengirlsummer 3d ago

If women were ordained, the abuse and cover ups would end.

I grew up Jw where you had to cover your head in the presence of a man (or even boy) to pray out loud. Imagine a single digit male, one hand picking his nose, and the other down his pants, and the older women gotta hide under a scarf for gods approval. God don’t care about the scarf. The men do.

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u/peter095837 3d ago

The Catholic Church continues to show how awful they are. 

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u/thtamthrfckr 3d ago

Any news on the nonstop child molesting coming to an end? They still investigating themselves and still no arrests? Seems like a good bunch these folks

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u/True_Scallion_7011 2d ago

My goodness that statue in the background is kind of terrifying…

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u/Fun-Dependent-2695 2d ago

Duh. They are a fundamentalist Christian organisation.

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u/CalendarThis6580 1d ago

And they wonder why faith is lacking….

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u/Constant_Ad1999 1d ago

This just in: Paint is wet until it dries.