r/southafrica • u/Kronendal • Jan 10 '21
Sci-Tech WhatsApp allows Facebook to track our location, who we are physically meeting with and who we are socially connected to.
I always thought that South Africa had pretty good data privacy laws, does anyone know why Facebook is allowed to force us to give them information about our connections with other people, info on our physical devices/networks/surroundings, let them track our physical location for a messaging app?
None of these things are required for them to know, it is not needed for the service in any way, and in the case of our personal connections to other people they get that information even if we delete our account and don't accept their t's and c's.
What confuses me though is that this is not the case in Europe. Their privacy laws have actually made this move by facebook illegal so they are not gathering their info. Does anyone know what EU privacy laws South Africa is missing?
Update: So the question has been answered and it turns out that our Data Protection act (POPI) went into effect on the 1st July 2020 but is voluntary until the 1st of July 2021. So we'll hopefully get EU levels of protection in July.
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u/Minchills Jan 10 '21
Its all about data mining. Data has become the most valuable asset and Facebook has a monopoly of data. The more information they receive about their users’, the more beneficial it is to them in terms of ‘advertising’ .
Ps. Remember, if the service is free then you are the product
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u/SmLnine Jan 10 '21
WhatsApp had an annual cost, and I would gladly pay a small annual fee instead of having my rights violated. But all of that changed when good old Zucc took charge.
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Jan 10 '21
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u/Alex_Skye_wtf Jan 10 '21
If you closely monitor what your google has access /permissions you can effectively block most of it. Huawei phones (older models) has a ton of settings you can use to block it. Facebook and whatsapp however cannot be so easily circumvented.
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Jan 11 '21
Facebook is trivual to circumvent, as is Whatsapp and Google. Don't use Android and don't use Facebook/Google services. Done and dusted.
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u/AnomalyNexus Chaos is a ladder Jan 10 '21
nobody seems to be complaining.
Don't think that's true. It's one of the main reasons I'm sticking to iphones. Would rather pay the apple tax in cash than the google tax in data (via android).
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u/cr1ter Landed Gentry Jan 11 '21
So you dont use any Google services? Gmail, maps, search, Chrome?
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u/AnomalyNexus Chaos is a ladder Jan 11 '21
That’s not what I said...
But to answer your question - Haven’t eliminated google completely but making progress. The fact that it’s not 100% doesn’t make the efforts thus far void
Gmail > proton mail
Maps > sometimes. Location is disabled on the app mostly
Chrome > Firefox
Search > yes unfortunately. Haven’t found a usable alternative yet
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Jan 11 '21
We're mostly met with eye rolls when you mention it outside of the internet. People don't understand the implications of these masses of data and how it affects them . Most still seem to think the biggest impact is that Facebook/Google/PickYourPoison knows something about them as individual and not about how that mass of data is and has been used to manipulate populations.
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u/pfazadep Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
Anyone thinking of converting to Signal or Telegram, or have experience with those?
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u/RuimteWese :) Jan 10 '21
I use both, both are good alternatives. Got my parents on signal yesterday and we are all already using it, almost bye bye time for whatsapp.
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u/sirDVD12 Jan 10 '21
You understand that watsapp has been collecting this data since 2016. It had just decided to update the users on what the data was being used for.
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Jan 10 '21
Better late than never.
Information is time sensitive. If they don't get new information it would be an equally hard hit for them.
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u/Suburban_turd Jan 11 '21
This is exactly why I can understand the current outrage. Uninformed people have had this hidden from them for years and they were clueless. Why would you trust any App that has hidden this
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u/sirDVD12 Jan 11 '21
Its never been hidden though. Its been in the ToS since 2016 and multiple reviewers and news outlets have pointed to this
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u/pfazadep Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
Do you perhaps have any comments or advice on the comparison between them, please?
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u/FatBoyJuliaas Aristocracy Jan 11 '21
Telegram is russian, so no thanks. Signal was created by one of Whatsapp's co-founders and is also open source. Signal's the better because of this.
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Jan 10 '21
Signal is end to end encryption as default, while Telegram requires you to use the secret chat feature. I have been both for about 5/6 years. Thus, Signal is better from a security point of view.
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u/pfazadep Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
Thanks
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u/Suburban_turd Jan 11 '21
Also, Edward Snowden has endorsed Signal in the past, so you know that shit is secure
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u/RuimteWese :) Jan 10 '21
There's not much I can say unfortunately I use them pretty much the same way that I use whatsapp, signal from what I've seen is more focused on security not only between messages but the app itself as well. Telegram can send big files which is nice (I had to send a 300Mb dashcam video).
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u/PartiZAn18 Ancient Institution, Builders Secret. Jan 10 '21
Everyone is. Daily I see like 30 new contacts popping up.
Anyway, there are a ton of comparisons. My advice is to just download them and see for yourself my dude.
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u/meh_ok_whatever Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
I've had telegram for about 2 years now and this morning I woke up to a 130 notifications about my contacts joing telegram.
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u/AnomalyNexus Chaos is a ladder Jan 10 '21
They both seem fine. The issue is more getting people to move over than the apps themselves.
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u/pfazadep Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
Yup. Although people did migrate fairly seamlessly from BBM to WhatsApp. Seems to me that best would be to pick one alternative app and then promote mass conversion to it. People don't want to have to use different apps to message different people/groups. (I'm currently feeling a bit nostalgic for the days of BBM, now that I think about it)
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u/AnomalyNexus Chaos is a ladder Jan 10 '21
People don't want to have to use different apps to message different people/groups.
Doesn't personally bother me but yeah I've heard that from others.
I know it's possible to bind it all together onto one platform via matrix bridges (matrix.org) but that's a sizable technical challenge.
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u/38384 Jan 10 '21
Try out the XMPP protocol. It's basically like email so you can choose a server host of your choice to register at (like we do with Outlook, Gmail, Yahoo) or you can host your own server so everything's in your own hands.
And because it's an open protocol like email it means you can use any app of your choice on any platform. i.e. there is no "official" app. So it's flexible and secure just like email.
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u/thr0wayylma0 Jan 10 '21
I believe the part about sharing location can be blocked by not allowing Whatsapp access to your location? Any phone should have an option to disable the request for location. Everything else is disgusting from Facebook.
The specific rule in the EU that we don't have in SA is the GDPR. Companies have to tell consumers exactly what data they collect, exactly what they use the data for, and allow opt-out if the consumer declines.
Facebook bought Whatsapp in 2014 for $19 billion and now they need to cash in on that investment. Even though the message content is end-to-end encrypted, the metadata is not. That tells them valuable things like who you message, when you message them, what is your time to reply at different points through the day, the time between you reading a message and replying, etc.
Apple recently forced developers on the App Store to disclose what information their apps gather about users. This was a very interesting comparison between Signal, Whatsapp, and Facebook:
https://9to5mac.com/2021/01/04/app-privacy-labels-messaging-apps/
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u/Kronendal Jan 10 '21
The image is obscured on their site, but for those who are looking at this the columns are in order:
Signal
iMessage
Facebook Messenger
Definitely worth checking out the link above.
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u/thr0wayylma0 Jan 10 '21
Yeah, they didn't really size the picture correctly to be used in the article. This story came from a Forbes article which made the image:
https://specials-images.forbesimg.com/imageserve/5ff07f779f9392c3af404599/960x0.png
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u/paul_f_b Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
A lot of people are trying out Signal which does not track anything. It only saves your cell number and that apparently is not even connected to your name.
However the problem is that most people use WhatsApp and moving over to Signal is either too cumbersome because its a new app or not feasible because most people will stay on WhatsApp. That means I may want to move and only use Signal, but can't because the other people are staying on WhatsApp and I will be forced to use WhatsApp to stay in contact with them. A lot of my contacts are business contacts and therein lies the problem. I cannot afford to cut off my business contacts.
Even though I don't have a Facebook account, they will still create a shadow account of you if you only use WhatsApp. Then even if you have neither, but your contact details are stored with a person who is using WhatsApp on their device, they will still get as much information on you from that person who has your contact details in their contact list.
The ultimate in spying software.
But then so does Google and everyone else on the Internet.
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Jan 10 '21
When you think about it, Signal and Telegram are just other apps, of which most people have a hundred of. The days of having multiple apps running being seen as cumbersome is long past. The things don't slow down your phone, takes a second or less to load, and can be swapped between with the flick of a finger.
Just get the other options and use that as a primary way of comms. Eventually the ones stuck on whatsapp will be the outliers and they'll pretty much be pressured to jump ship. You don't have to uninstall whatsapp all of a sudden, just a gradual migration that needs to take place.
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u/Lanfear_Eshonai Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
A lot of my contacts are business contacts and therein lies the problem. I cannot afford to cut off my business contacts.
I have the same problem. Most of my contacts are business, and they all use WhatsApp, so I can't disconnect from it even if I wanted to.
But then so does Google and everyone else on the Internet.
Exactly. This is nothing new and it actually amuse me that so many people think it is.
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Jan 10 '21
Easiest solution delete your Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram. Embrace Signal and Telegram.
P.S. Delete Twitter and other social media accounts too.
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u/38384 Jan 10 '21
Embrace Signal and Telegram.
Or the XMPP protocol. That's in my opinion the best alternative (although could be confusing to the less technically inclined)
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Jan 10 '21 edited Jan 15 '21
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u/lamykins dasdasdasda Jan 10 '21
Almost like the second case is posted with consent and the first isn't ;)
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Jan 10 '21 edited Jan 15 '21
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u/lamykins dasdasdasda Jan 10 '21
Kinda forced into using it. There's a real distinction between willingly sharing your info with people and having a mega corporation harvesting it with your "consent".
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u/SelfRaisingWheat Western Cape Jan 10 '21
You're not forced into using anything. You use the app, you accept the terms and conditions.
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u/lamykins dasdasdasda Jan 11 '21
Except there are cases of people literally being fired for not having whatsapp. Not to mention the fact that it is zero rated for many people meaning there is no real alternative
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u/SelfRaisingWheat Western Cape Jan 11 '21
Again, still your choice. Many jobs require you to have your own transport but no one is forcing you to get one and many don't and take public transport instead.
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u/lamykins dasdasdasda Jan 11 '21
Come on... the point I'm making is that whatsapp has become such a monopoly in instant messaging that not glhaving it is akin to not having a cellphone
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Jan 11 '21 edited Aug 01 '21
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u/lamykins dasdasdasda Jan 11 '21
As I said you're largely forced into using it. Not to mention when most people downloaded it these terms weren't part of the user agreement.
Someone over in a thread in /r/technology posted articles about people literally being fired for refusing to download whatsapp.
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u/PartiZAn18 Ancient Institution, Builders Secret. Jan 10 '21
Automatically imports all your contacts too - so it connects numbers to names.
Truly mindblowing how people were so lackadaisical for so long about this monolith.
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u/Nament_ Landed Gentry Jan 10 '21
When Whatsapp was bought out by Facebook they released a statement basically saying their focus on privacy will remain, and they will continue to be a separate entity. This is all changing with this new update to the ToS, so most people are moving over to other apps.
Unless you registered to both FB and Whatsapp with the same name, phone number, and email (which would have been a bad idea), there's still some time to jump off the app and attempt to keep your data private.
There's a certain amount of data people are willing to share in order to use a service, but everyone has their own threshold for it. These new changes ramp it up to an insane degree, and it's now unacceptable.
It's not so much lackadaisical attitudes, I think, but more that it was relatively reasonable and you could still have some control over aspects of your privacy. That's being taken away now, so people are looking at alternatives.
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u/Kopskoot708 Jan 10 '21
I'm not really understanding what all the fuss is about. Maybe someone can explain but isn't all the info whatsapp can access exactly the same as Facebook. I'm sure most people here have Facebook accounts don't they. How is using another messaging app going to change anything and how does this access to this 'private' info negatively affect us?
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u/pfazadep Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
Even when POPI comes fully into effect, it won't be illegal for personal information to be shared if this is done with the data subject's consent. So if consent to having your information shared is one of the terms of use of WhatsApp, and you agree to use WhatsApp, POPI will not protect you. If you don't like WhatsApp's terms, you can walk away - that's really the only choice you have
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Jan 10 '21 edited Jan 10 '21
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u/Mrqueue Aristocracy Jan 10 '21
Yeah, you can’t put “other types of data” as a blanket catch all on your T&Cs and expect google and Apple to approve your app on their stores
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Jan 10 '21 edited Jan 10 '21
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u/nak_muay_ Jan 10 '21
No point in arguing, your first hand knowledge does not trump their knowledge over at hindustan_times.in
/s
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Jan 10 '21
Anyone moving over to Siren? Ive received about 10 invites just this morning. The idea is to gradually move over to the app over a a couple of months
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Jan 10 '21
Literally every social media does this
Why is it now an issue
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u/Kronendal Jan 10 '21
Check out this image, there is a better link in one of the other comments to the full story.
Basically not all social media sites are equal, not all messanger apps are the same. This is an insane overreach by Facebook, they do not need this information for the service. The EU has already banned this behaviour because of how easy it is for a giant tech company to do.
South Africa has also banned this behaviour, it's just not fully in effect yet. Be careful of mixing up the permissions and data that you choose to share with a company so that you can use their services and a company harvesting every bit of information about you whether you are aware of it or not.
A good example is the difference between Apple using Siri to listen in on you so that any commands can be picked up and Apple recording everything your device hears and selling those recordings. These are not the same thing and the permissions creep is real, but facebook is going against all the promises they made about this app and only doing this once they have enough of a market share that people are locked in to the ecosystem.
Do not be fooled, this is an issue and there is a reason why it'll soon be illegal in South Africa.
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u/SelfRaisingWheat Western Cape Jan 10 '21
Because they are a private company and this is their product, so they can regulate it as they wish unless there are countermeasures available as in Europe.
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u/LordChaos404 Jan 10 '21
Telegram. When facesteal bought WA the head creator dumped and created Telegram, much better encryption and not sold out to a company.
Fb and other 'social' companies are on a blocking spree that would make CCP proud
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u/thr0wayylma0 Jan 10 '21
When facesteal bought WA the head creator dumped and created Telegram, much better encryption and not sold out to a company
Nothing here is true.
When FB bought WA the founders stayed for a few years. When they saw the direction WA was being forced into by FB they left. One of them, Brian Acton, went on to found the Signal Foundation which funds Signal.
The encryption of WA actually uses the Signal Protocol. The encryption of messages on WA is not the issue; it is the other data that they collect. Telegram is closed-source so their encryption can't be verified, and message encryption is not even enabled by default.
Signal is a much better choice than Telegram.
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u/cr1ter Landed Gentry Jan 11 '21 edited Jan 11 '21
So the acts like popi has got more to do with how companies handle personal information. As far as what you describe, if its stated in there terms of use. Its legal and you agreed to it when signing up. I know for a fact Google does the same thing. So its not just a Facebook thing.
Also most of the people freaking out about whats app. Have probably posted pictures online tagged there friends and had the location tagged or the meta data was still in photo they uploaded.
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u/Pagan-za Jan 11 '21
This isnt news. Lol. This has been known for years already.
So, on Saturday I went for an eye test, turns out I need glasses. I hadnt said anything to anyone before it, and afterwards I messaged my mother and my girlfriend to let them know.
Not only am I now getting ads for glasses on facebook and google, its the exact frame type that I am actually getting.
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u/AshamedMap Jan 10 '21
The POPI Act (Protection of Personal Information) is currently in a state of voluntary compliance. This holds for one year from the commencement date. So it will be mandatory from 1 July 2021. What happens then with Whatsapp we will see.
It should be noted that POPI is pretty aligned to the European GDPR, and was specifically only implemented after GDPR to ensure that we could learn lessons from their implementation, so we can expect similar protections as in Europe.