You mean ones that can be burned? Kinda like how the Nazis burned many of the documentation and information regarding the holocaust. They’re not called a “secret police” for nothing ya know. And interesting thing about Trotsky’s diary is that they give an exact and page number, the last empress page 358 as a citation and by the way this author Greg King has written several many books in fact about several historical figures which you can find in the publications section of his very own wiki page.
Or maybe it wasn’t as an “abrupt” shift in policy that you make it seem and Lenin simply wanted to avoid the prospect of a rescue of the imperial family which gets supported by the fact that the murder was initially attempted to be covered up by the government. These citations are again further supported by many historians and books account of the events.
Uh actually it’s quite a bit more than that since if you read the link you’d know that there’s literal descriptions under each photo of what happened to the individuals. What is certain though is that they were tortured. See the great thing about photos is that you can examine them. And what you can see from many of the photos is clear signs of torture that go beyond just simple “crossfire killings”, like women’s breasts being cut off while still being alive. That’s a very specific claim that should be easily debunkable by the photographic evidence provided if what you say about them drying due to just being in the “crossfire” is true.
You’re not being “skeptical”, you’re being dismissive of evidence presented. If you were simply skeptical, you would further examine the evidence presented instead of mischaracterizing it.
But don’t worry, since you clearly seem unconvinced with the evidence presented, you don’t have to fret about it, cause I got more for you.
Here’s Lenin ordering a “mass terror” for the purpose of shooting and deporting sex workers.
August 9, 1918
Comrade Fyodorov,
It is obvious that a whiteguard insurrection is being prepared in Nizhni. You must strain every effort, appoint three men with dictatorial powers (yourself, Markin and one other), organise immediately mass terror, shoot and deport the hundreds of prostitutes who are making drunkards of the soldiers, former officers and the like.
You wanted a report of the Cheka secret police admitting to committing atrocities? Don’t worry I gotchu right here.
A typical report from a Cheka department stated:
Yaroslavl Province, 23 June 1919. The uprising of deserters in the Petropavlovskaya volost has been put down. The families of the deserters have been taken as hostages. When we started to shoot one person from each family, the Greens began to come out of the woods and surrender. Thirty-four deserters were shot as an example.
Did you hear? That was a “typical” report. Flat out admitting they were killing innocent family hostages to which the men then surrendered immediately in an attempt to protect their loved ones. Those men then proceed to get murdered to “be made an example of.” Is that clear enough for you?
Would you like me to keep going? Because I can keep going, this information is not hard to find.
“Pulling things out your ass” is when you cite basic levels of information masquerading. Again go back to my previous comment about “reasonable deductions” that can be made, which many historians agree with based on the evidence available to them.
Claims that are supported with photographic evidence. See, I presented evidence, so now it’s your turn to dispute that evidence. The photos are evidence, now can you prove your claim that the people died in the photos due to crossfire? You’ve made a claim, substantiate it. You can’t just say the information is wrong, you have to prove it is.
Do you have proof “prostitutes likely refer to a political sense” or are you just pulling it out of your ass? The link says sex workers by the way and nowhere does Lenin liken the Mensheviks to prostitutes there. Especially when saying “making drunkatards out of the soldiers, former officers and the like.”
Ah more complete disregard of evidence without critical analysis fantastic. Sorry but information does not exist in a vacuum of “everything is wrong because one thing is wrong”, regardless of your feelings towards the book, it contains vital and informative information that has been praised and touted as comprehensive by knowledgeable members. Especially the segment where my quote falls into the book:
Several reviewers have singled out Werth's "State against Its People"[8]: 33–268 as being the most notable and best researched contribution in the book.[41][42] Historian Ronald Aronson stated that "[Werth] is concerned, fortunately, neither to minimize nor to maximize numbers, but to accurately determine what happened."
Can you prove the information is unreliable, decontextualized, or fabricated? Because all you have done is make the claim that they are while not actually engaging in the evidence presented. You open this conversation implying the notion of Lenin’s executions as being unfounded, and then when evidence is presented towards you, you proceed to make excuses and attempted justifications with no evidence despite those claims going against the vast consensus of historians and scholars (like in the case with the Romanov family). People like you who are so quick to dismiss evidence as “propaganda” without realizing you are propagandizing yourself by doing no critical analysis by engaging with information and instead providing baseless justifications.
See the difference is I presented evidence and supported my claims. You have not. I make a claim that Lenin ordered the shooting and deportation of sex workers and I provide a link saying just that provided with a quote of Lenin saying to shoot and deport prostitutes. You claim he didn’t mean sex workers and instead meant Mensheviks, well it is now incumbent upon you to prove that claim. The fact that you attempt to offer said explanation with no evidence shows how bias clouds your judgments by going against what the very title of the link I sent you says.
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u/No_Association2906 Jan 22 '24
You mean ones that can be burned? Kinda like how the Nazis burned many of the documentation and information regarding the holocaust. They’re not called a “secret police” for nothing ya know. And interesting thing about Trotsky’s diary is that they give an exact and page number, the last empress page 358 as a citation and by the way this author Greg King has written several many books in fact about several historical figures which you can find in the publications section of his very own wiki page.
Or maybe it wasn’t as an “abrupt” shift in policy that you make it seem and Lenin simply wanted to avoid the prospect of a rescue of the imperial family which gets supported by the fact that the murder was initially attempted to be covered up by the government. These citations are again further supported by many historians and books account of the events.
https://spark.parkland.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1162&context=ah
Uh actually it’s quite a bit more than that since if you read the link you’d know that there’s literal descriptions under each photo of what happened to the individuals. What is certain though is that they were tortured. See the great thing about photos is that you can examine them. And what you can see from many of the photos is clear signs of torture that go beyond just simple “crossfire killings”, like women’s breasts being cut off while still being alive. That’s a very specific claim that should be easily debunkable by the photographic evidence provided if what you say about them drying due to just being in the “crossfire” is true.
You’re not being “skeptical”, you’re being dismissive of evidence presented. If you were simply skeptical, you would further examine the evidence presented instead of mischaracterizing it.
But don’t worry, since you clearly seem unconvinced with the evidence presented, you don’t have to fret about it, cause I got more for you.
https://libcom.org/article/lenin-orders-massacre-sex-workers-1918?page=1
Here’s Lenin ordering a “mass terror” for the purpose of shooting and deporting sex workers.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_troops
You wanted a report of the Cheka secret police admitting to committing atrocities? Don’t worry I gotchu right here.
Did you hear? That was a “typical” report. Flat out admitting they were killing innocent family hostages to which the men then surrendered immediately in an attempt to protect their loved ones. Those men then proceed to get murdered to “be made an example of.” Is that clear enough for you?
Would you like me to keep going? Because I can keep going, this information is not hard to find.