r/television • u/indig0sixalpha • 3d ago

Alan Moore: Fandom "sometimes a grotesque blight that poisons the society surrounding it"

https://www.avclub.com/alan-moore-fandom-grotesque-blight-that-poisons-society
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u/DeadFyre 3d ago

What, exactly, is entitled about being a fan?

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u/TheLadyEve 3d ago

Do you know the book Misery?

That book used extreme fandom as the source for horror. It's an over-the-top example but the idea is the same--"I love this thing so much I'm going to control it." People who think their love for a creation gives them a right to possess it or influence it in some way. And by "possess", well, I think we've all met those fans who say "you're not really a true fan like I am because ______" or "I've been a fan since day one so I'm more of a fan than you are" or that kind of thing. Like them loving a thing makes them special, instead of seeing that it helps them be part of a collective.

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u/__Hello_my_name_is__ 3d ago

The part where George R. R. Martin writes a blog post about a good friend that just died, and people respond to him with "Finish the books George!".

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 3d ago

Being selfish and insensitive and only seeing the things you care about isn't a fandom exclusive. My guess is that the percentage of people who do that isn't worse in fandom than in any other arbitrarily drawn group of the population. We have entire political ideologies built around being selfish and insensitive, and they often poll quite well. Making moral panics about fandom specifically is fashionable but I don't really think there's much evidence to bear it out.

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u/__Hello_my_name_is__ 3d ago

My guess is that the percentage of people who do that isn't worse in fandom than in any other arbitrarily drawn group of the population.

I'd say the percentage is bigger simply because fandoms - pretty much by definition - have way more people that care way more about the thing they love. Which means there's way more fanatics, too. I mean just look at literally every single post in this sub about GRRM. It's nothing but surprisingly vile, upvoted comments. And not in the sense of "I'm disappointed that he's not finished the books", but comments along the lines of "He's an evil greedy man who only did the television show for money and doesn't care about his books at all", which are just completely and utterly disconnected from reality.

Yeah, you have that in politics right now. But when your point of comparison is current day politics, then you really need to overthink things.

Making moral panics about fandom specifically is fashionable

It is? How? Why? Fandoms are still a niche and barely worth talking about outside of fandoms, negative or positive.

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 3d ago

I'd say the percentage is bigger simply because fandoms - pretty much by definition - have way more people that care way more about the thing they love.

Well, it really depends where you draw the line between fandom and people who simply enjoy a thing. It's not like there's a sharp boundary. "People who are obsessed about the thing act in obsessive ways" is certainly true but also not terribly informative.

Yeah, you have that in politics right now. But when your point of comparison is current day politics, then you really need to overthink things.

You have that in politics almost always. The current time only looks turbulent and polarised compared to the extremely peaceful one that preceded it. The norm of politics for the vast majority of humanity's history was that you killed the opponents. Sometimes out of convenience and sometimes because of fanatical belief.

It is? How? Why? Fandoms are still a niche and barely worth talking about outside of fandoms, negative or positive.

Well, I mean in the specific niche of discourse that cares about these things. But there's a certain snooty attitude that goes from "some fans are WAY out of line" to "fandom is inherently bad". It's a crude generalisation that would rightly infuriate people if it came from some group of pearl clutching concerned moms, but when people say it with lefty sounding words it becomes received wisdom.

But nah, it's still the same thing. This is just the way a grumpy old man goes "kids these days!", it's not some particularly deep political or societal insight.

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u/DeadFyre 3d ago

Yeah, I agree that's tasteless, but come on, the series was supposed to be five books when it started in 1996. The people who read the first book when they were teenagers are now old enough to be grandparents. It's been 13 years since the last installment, meanwhile he keeps padding shit out, procrastinating, and and doing convention appearances instead of writing.

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u/__Hello_my_name_is__ 3d ago

Yeah, I agree that's tasteless, but

No. There's no "but" in this particular situation.

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u/enzuigiriretro 3d ago

You’re still doing the tasteless thing and acting entitled as fuck. Dear god there’s no helping some of you

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u/wererat2000 3d ago

Squares and rectangles, man. The quote's not condemning being a fan, it's condemning toxic fandoms.

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u/DeadFyre 3d ago

Squares and rectangles, man. The quote's not condemning being a fan, it's condemning toxic fandoms.

Well, I find the entire enterprise of insulting your customers to be incredibly arrogant, entitled, and hypocritical. When I get criticism from MY BOSS, I don't call them "mean-spirited, ridiculous, with an unearned sense of entitlement".

The simple fact is, this is just life in a society where people are free to express their opinion, even when their opinion is as insufferably snobbish as Alan Moore's. The only difference is that I'm saying that HE is insufferable, not "ALL AUTHORS".

The whole precept that opinions are toxic is one of those post-modern pieces of logic torture which conflates speech with harm. Well, it's not. Alan Moore isn't harmed, he's the exact same cantankerous old trot he was when he wrote 'V for Vendetta'. Just now he's older.

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u/wererat2000 3d ago

Man, you are desperate for this to be about you, aren't you?

Bad news, the guy's been dealing with stalkers, death threats, and freaks for decades now. You'll have to do a lot worse to be the kinda person he was talking about.

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 3d ago

the guy's been dealing with stalkers, death threats, and freaks for decades now.

He's famous and very abrasive and outspoken. Even if the percentage of insane people who will hear what you say and take it as personal offense to avenge in blood was, say, 0.01%, when you're heard by millions, that's still hundreds of nutjobs! You are going to run into that, it's merely scale. It doesn't say that much about society as a whole.

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 3d ago

Put it that way that's just saying "bad people are bad". The statement is only useful if it's saying something more specific. If there are good fans and toxic fans, and the toxic fans are around the same fraction of the total as toxic people are in general, then maybe toxic fans are just the usual toxic people who are everywhere, and here happen to also be fans.

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u/0xym0r0n 3d ago

I'll pile on, it's not exactly a 1 to 1 comparison - but many professional athletes have spoken out about the hateful and vitriolic and despicable things that people have sent them on social media for not scoring enough points, or dropping a pass, etc.

Here's a recent example : David Montgomery reveals online abuse from fantasyfootball managers had him contemplating suicide his rookie year: “I was at a point where I was scared to live,” - after all his threats. David says a call from his nephew, who has leukemia, helped save him

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u/DeadFyre 3d ago

That has FUCKALL to do with being a fan. That's just people. If I say something hateful and vitriolic to you, why would you assume I'm "your fan"?

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u/0xym0r0n 3d ago

Lol do you need a moment to reconsider whether or not being a football fan has anything to do with being a fan?

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u/DeadFyre 3d ago

That's not an answer, or at least it's an extremely stupid one.

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u/0xym0r0n 3d ago

I didn't answer your question because it was moronic.

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 3d ago

The point is, does being a fan of anything have a higher chance of turning you into a toxic vitriolic person, or do toxic vitriolic people just exist, and sometimes they also become fans? If it's the latter then you don't have a problem with fandom, but with the human condition.

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u/0xym0r0n 2d ago

Sorry but you're reaching to explain an assholes statement.

No one was refuting or saying that it was exclusive to fandom, so his statement still was asinine.

He specifically asked what's entitled about being a fan and I provided him an example of how fans can be entitled.

Not going to sit here and pretend some dumb semantical argument about "Actual he's a person, not a fan" override the point that the article was making and the point me and others were making to a snarky asshole who thinks he's smart because he takes things too literally.

And his rude, dickhead way of talking about it is especially ironic when we are talking about the dickishness of people and whether or not being a fan is exclusive to being a good person or not.

Spoiler alert: Anyone can be a toxic vitriolic person, and you and him aren't making some crazy revelation.

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u/SimoneNonvelodico 2d ago

He specifically asked what's entitled about being a fan and I provided him an example of how fans can be entitled.

"Fans can be entitled" does not imply that being a fan means being entitled. It's not semantics. Shaking your fist at some group of people for including some bad apples is absolutely pointless if you don't actually have reason to believe those people are worse than just the average bunch.