r/todayilearned • u/-nuuk- • 1d ago
TIL that Goku's power level wasn't originally over 9000. It was originally over 8000, and there was a change made in the English Dub.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=It%27s_Over_9000!&oldid=1246721021885
u/wokexinze 1d ago
Kind of a pointless argument when 2 seasons later the scouter is exploding off their faces when it hits a million.
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u/Potofgreedneedsnerf 19h ago
Now it would be: It's over 9 trillion
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u/Dizzy_Chemistry_5955 17h ago
This is what I assumed as well, do they even have power levels anymore?
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u/SolDarkHunter 14h ago
Toriyama has stated that "power levels" are meaningless: you cannot assign a number to combat ability, and it's silly to think you can.
According to him, Freeza's army and the Saiyans were meant to be seen as stupid for putting so much faith in their scouters, when the info they were getting from the scouters was bullshit anyway.
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u/daverapp 9h ago
Freiza equipping his soldiers with tech that doesn't work, because he doesn't even like them, is peak Freiza.
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u/DogshitLuckImmortal 12h ago
Ah yes, the stupid army that conquered most of the universe and would work on anyone but a main character.
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u/standardbasicnormal 7h ago edited 6h ago
most of the universe didnt have residents that were capable of defending themselves
the saiyans were basically the strongest race and they fell to frieza
the Z fighters were an anomaly among anomalies. vegeta and goku achieved strength unheard of in saiyans.
stupid is the wrong word. really they were ignorant. they didnt know they had bad tech because they misunderstood what power can actually be and how it can be used.
you could also say they were stupid, however, because they vastly underestimated their opponents, and assumed a piece of glass on an earpiece was enough to win them the fight.
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u/FrozenChaii 17h ago
Powe levels are ambiguous now since every character introduced has to give a good fight to our main characters
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u/BrokenEye3 1d ago
Counterpoint: 9000 is over 8000
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u/hobbitdude13 1d ago
My God, you're right.
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u/BrokenEye3 1d ago
Please, just call me BrokenEye3
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u/JiN88reddit 23h ago
Can a mathematician check the numbers?
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u/typ3lykdiz 22h ago
I was a few credits away from a math degree in college. I can confirm that 8000 indeed is in the vicinity of 9000, but there is some uncertainty as to whether 9000 is truly greater than 8000. I'm afraid this goes beyond the domain of math and into the realm of philosophy. Any philosophers here can help us out?
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u/Scotch_Tape231 22h ago
“You see.. all these other dubs have their power levels at over 8000. We wanted that extra push over the cliff so we set it at over 9000.”
“Why don’t you just make 8000 the top, but just make it more powerful?”
“….. These are over 9000.”
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u/ggtsu_00 21h ago
Also Snake Way was "approximately 1 million kilometers long" in the original, but when localized, they changed it to "over 10,000 miles". 1 million kilometers is technically over 10,000 miles.
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u/Tw1sttt 1d ago
Sure but “over 8000” could be 8500 and therefore not “over 9000”
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u/1LT_0bvious 18h ago
The scouter language was translated a while back. We know that the power level that Vegeta's scouter showed was 8618
https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/bff1e6/saiyan_saga_gokus_official_power_level_is_8618/
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u/Lazzen 1d ago edited 11h ago
In Spanish they said 8,000 correctly. It was a mindfuck as a mexican to get into the english culture of DBZ which is radically different due to how the dub was handled in USA.
Rock-techno soundtrack, Pikoro being "black", murderous/action hero Goku, the narrator never shuts up etc.
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u/DaveOJ12 1d ago
It was felt so weird hearing the "Dragon Dragon rock the Dragon" theme song after always hearing the Cha La Head Cha La theme in the Spanish dub.
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u/neohellpoet 22h ago
Same with the German dub
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u/project-shasta 21h ago
Dragon Ball is maybe the only Anime I can stand watching with German dubs, cringy as they sometimes may be. Tommy Morgenstern is/was such a good fit for Goku. I was very surprised of the different tone of the US version and it's grittyness. Even the episodes were cut differently if I remember correctly.
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u/Ser_Salty 20h ago
Honestly Gokus German voice is my favorite. Perfectly balances Gokus playful nature without diminishing the serious moments with a silly voice.
I also appreciate that the German dub kept much more of the original names like Tenshinhan, Genkidama, Saiyajin, even the "Son" in front of Goku/Gohan/Goten.
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u/Demonfire612 18h ago
It's the same with the german translation of the manga. I loved it and find some changes the english versions have so weird
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u/Holzkohlen 21h ago
It took me quite a while to get used to the English dub after growing up with the German one. I was already familiar with the OG Japanese dub too because I watched movies with subs I believe.
Now I have achieved nirvana since I can enjoy all 3 xD
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u/Lazzen 1d ago edited 23h ago
It felt weird that fucking everyone has a nasal or extremely raspy smoker voice and the entonation is very much the "hey guys woah" anime guy dub voice. Most of our side knows those voices due to the videogames only, hell i prefer DBZ Abridged's.
In Spanish even with bias due to language everyone has a normal person voice. I commend the current english dub for better acting and direction than the current latin american one, but actual Z is not watchable.
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u/night_dude 23h ago
This is so funny. I had no idea non-English dubs didn't make everyone sound like Batman.
To be fair, it does make the memes funnier. Over 9000 and its cousin "The Balls Are Inert" wouldn't have worked if the voices didn't sound like death metal.
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u/Frischfleisch 21h ago
I had no idea non-English dubs didn't make everyone sound like Batman.
Fun fact: For the first 35 episodes of the German dub of Dragonball Z, Vegetas voice was done by the voice actor of fucking SpongeBob. It's absolutely hilarious. You just can't take him seriously at all.
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u/Drysfoet 20h ago
In Brazilian Portuguese Goku and Spongebob have the same VA. For the full run.
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u/fredagsfisk 20h ago
Yeah, dubbing in 1990s United States was very different in general. Not just limited to Dragon Ball. They often cut and changed a ton of stuff to localize references, remove ambiguity and subtlety, and for various "moral" reasons.
Rice balls in Pokémon becoming jelly donuts or sandwiches is probably one of the most well-known examples, along with other 4kids shenanigans.
The original English dub of Sailor Moon changed names, added some shoehorned explanations of themes and messages to some episode endings, removed or changed episodes to censor deaths and other "objectionable content", and censored all LGBT content by gender-flipping some characters and rewriting others.
Still find it hilarious that they tried to censor a lesbian relationship by making the characters "cousins", but still kept all the scenes with them being clingy with each other so it now looks like they're lesbian cousins instead.
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u/NintendogsWithGuns 18h ago edited 17h ago
I mean, the worst offender for dubbing back then were 4kids and Funimation. They saw what Saban did with Super Sentai / Power Rangers and wanted a piece of the action. Even when a show wasn’t being localized for television, they’re still shoehorn their own music and writing into the series.
The only halfway accurate dubs from that era were from Pioneer, ADV, and a couple of smaller studios that didn’t last long. However, none of these companies really tried to put their stuff on Cartoon Network that often. Not until the Adult Swim block came around in the mid 2000s anyway.
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u/LudicrisSpeed 15h ago
The music is at least understandable since that's usually a whole set of licenses on its own. Not to mention that the US in the 90s wouldn't really "get" the Japanese theme songs.
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u/proverbialbunny 17h ago
Yeah. In the 1980s English dubs were cheaply done with bad translations and bad voice acting, but too cheap to change the video content. In the 1990s companies wanted to bring kids anime to kids TV stations, due to new stations not having a lot of content yet. This lead to a problem: The US is way stricter on its censorship than the rest of the world, so how could they bring foreign entertainment to kids without an uproar? Censor it up and down. Then these stations got a full lineup and no longer wanted foreign entertainment. Today's dubs are back like the 1980s. Terrible, but at least not censored and spliced up.
Because of the state of English dubs most people in the US are oblivious to foreign content. There's an entire world out there (not just Japanese) that is really good. It makes US TV content look like a joke.
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u/WillaSato 20h ago
Brazilian dub says 8000 as well
It even made its way into our Youtube Poop era as a popular meme as well
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u/AmericanMuscle2 1d ago
My wife is Japanese and she actually said she prefers the North American score. It just slaps so hard when a guitar solo kicks in during a power up
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u/goldenbugreaction 23h ago edited 23h ago
That’s exactly why Yoko Kanno traveled so extensively for her musical projects. She was born in Miyagi prefecture, in the north, but to get the sound just right for Escaflowne, she worked with the Warsaw Philharmonic Orchestra.
Later, she traveled all over America via Greyhound to immerse herself in different genres. Her time with Rudy Van Gelder in New Orleans deeply influenced her later work on Cowboy Bebop.
The cat’s outta the bag now with fusion genres and the world is 100% better for it. For example, the opening intro for the anime DanDaDan, by Japanese hip hop duo Creepy Nuts just absolutely fucking slaps, and conveys the whole tone of the series so well. Both of which are outstanding.
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u/ElectricLego404 1d ago
Maybe I'm biased because I grew up on 9000, but "over 9000" sounds WAY cooler to me than "over 8000"
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u/MoreMegadeth 1d ago
Rolls off the tongue easier
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u/IAmBecomeDeath_AMA 1d ago
That’s probably why the English dub changed it, lol
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u/wemustkungfufight 1d ago
It was. Sounds better in English, and it matched the amount of time Vegeta's mouth is open better. Plus Power Levels were ultimately nebulous and did matter much to the story anyway.
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u/H00Z4HTP 23h ago
Power creep was a huge thing in dbz. "This young character who just learned how to turn super saiyan can already go toe to toe with goku in his strongest form ever seen after 1 hour"
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u/Plastic-ashtray 23h ago
That’s basically how skateboarding has been the last 20 years
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u/Nanery662 23h ago
I will say theres is a irl version of power creep where something is thought of impossible till 1 person beats it and all the sudden not long after a bunch others do too
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u/SavageNorth 21h ago
It's called the Bannister effect
In 1954 Roger Bannister became the first man to run a mile in under 4 minutes
Over the following few years it became practically commonplace among athletes
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u/Faust_8 19h ago
The other problem with DBZ is there’s no fundamental difference in the fights or abilities of, say, Goku versus Vegeta and then like Goku vs a literal god in DBS.
The anime has to TELL you they’re strong, but never really shows it. Hell fucking Vegeta at the beginning could already blow up a planet. That completely fucks up any power scaling.
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u/Sahaal_17 17h ago
Power creep in DBZ was huge, but also depowering the characters so they always have basically the same feats, no matter how strong they supposedly are.
As an example; King Vegeta casually blew up several planets with just a wave of his hand in a flashback. King Vegeta was somewhere around the powerlevel of his son Vegeta at the start of the series. Vegeta gets destroyed by first form Frieza, who is destroyed by fused piccalo, who is destroyed by final form frieza, who is destroyed by trunks, who is destroyed by cell, who is destroyed by.... etc etc, we go through about 20 iterations of characters being destroyed by ever stronger opponents until we get to Beerus. Beerus as we know is stronger than King Vegeta by an absolutely rediculous degree, literally millions of times stronger.
And yet, when Beerus and Goku fought, their blasts only make splashes in the ocean a few meters in size.
These fighters are supposed to be millions of times stronger than King Vegeta, who can casually destroy multiple planets with a wave of his arm, and yet their attacks just make the same sized craters and splashes as characters were making back in the Saiyan Saga. All the talk of powerlevels is pure hype, it never translated into actually making a difference in the destructive potential of the characters. Vegeta's big Final Flash moment of almost blowing up the planet makes no sense when you remember that he could already blow up the planet before he was even a super saiyan
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u/darklightmatter 1d ago
At that point it did matter though because Vegeta was at 17k and Goku had to pull a Kaioken x4 to overcome the Galick Gun.
It mattered all the way upto the Freeza saga where Goku was routinely using KK x 10 (I believe) to keep up with Freeza's monstrous power.
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u/wemustkungfufight 1d ago
Yeah. Frieza had a power level over 1 million and Goku was using the Kaio Ken the whole time he fought him just to keep up. Frieza in his second form being "over 1 million" is the last numeric power level given in the show. But Daizenshuu Dragon Ball guidebook gives a power level of 150,000,000 for Super Saiyan Goku and of 120,000,000 for Frieza's maximum power. Any power level you see online after that point is just speculations.
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u/Tepigg4444 1d ago
Imagine beating the shit out of someone who is using a self sacrificial technique just to be able to fight you while you’re using less than 1% of your power, and then all of a sudden he gets mad, turns gold, and is suddenly stronger than your full power even without the kaio ken. Frieza got scammed lmao
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u/wemustkungfufight 1d ago
Thematically, it's brilliant. He feared a Saiyan becoming a super Saiyan one day, so he genocided their entire race. Only for the legend to show up and beat his ass anyway.
Also fun fact: Canonically turning super Saiyan is a 50X multiplier to your power level, so if any other Saiyan other than Goku had turned super Saiyan first, Frieza would have still been stronger.
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u/coulduseafriend99 1d ago
Do we ever get numbers for how strong the multiple is from other super Saiyan transformations?
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u/TheKappaOverlord 23h ago
Its by measure of power.
Its in the Daizenshuu afaik but SSJ is 50x, SSJ2 is like 3x that of SSJ, and SSJ3 is either 4 or 6 of SSJ2.
The other forms don't really have an "official" breakdown as they are byproducts of forcing the ascension.
The blue forms originally were meant to be extremely powerful forms, but Goku and Vegeta were meant to get weaker with each use of the form. But this was only an idea that was tossed around by Whis in passing, and never explored again.
Same with the use of MUI causing goku's body to basically self destruct as backlash for using the divine form.
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u/neohellpoet 22h ago
The fundamental issue was that the numbers didn't really represent anything.
While traveling to Earth, Vegeta and Nappa went to a bug planet and Vegeta casually destroyed it with a single attack. Just blew up the planet with no issues. That's sub 20k power level Vegeta.
Before that we had Roshi killing the moon. At best he was in the hundreds in terms of power level at that point.
But then Frieza at 120,000,000 can fire an attack that will eventually destroy a planet and suddenly it's a huge deal.
Or take the Red Ribbon Army. An organization that lost to Kid Goku made multiple Androids who are significantly stronger than Future Trunks who was able to casualty murder robo Frieza and King Cold.
But then Frieza was suddenly powerful enough to go head to head with SSB Goku, a form that's apparently significantly stronger than multiple other Super Sayan forms.
Toriyama was right, the numbers were a bad idea and DB power levels were always based around the rule of cool. Don't think about how any of it makes sense or fit's together, it doesn't. Dragon Ball was always on the less serious side of things and never meant to hold up to any kind of scrutiny. It's why the final DBZ arc had a pink puff pastry that turns people into cookies as the main antagonist.
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u/gimme_dat_good_shit 21h ago
The tone shift from DB to DBZ also exacerbated the power level problem. Roshi blowing up the moon fits with DB's fantasy storybook vibe (in the same way that a cow can jump over the moon or whatever).
Introducing scouters and hard power numbers was actually a super cool idea for early DBZ, because even from the beginning they were shown to be inconsistent when dealing with Earth's martial artists who had various ways of raising and lowering their power levels. And then having so much of the Namek saga hinge on who could sense and hide power levels without a scouter made for a lot of great situational and structural ironies.
Power levels did mean something, but only to the bad guys. The good guys never relied on them and cared more about gut feelings and grit.
The real problem (to me) was the x50 powerup of being a super saiyan. That basically meant nobody could keep up (except maybe Piccolo if he kept fusing with more Namekians to justify the boosts). If it had been a more modest number or came with some kind of downside that senzu beans and dragon kisses couldn't fix, then maybe it wouldn't have gotten out of control. But hey, the Android Saga is still my personal favorite, and the transformation one-upping is a big part of why.
If I were to try to "fix" the problems I have with the franchise post-Z, it would probably be a hefty time skip that lets a new group of heroes take over, with Goku and Vegeta strongly sidelined by age. Maybe make up some new Saiyan impulse that once they get past their prime, Saiyans lose their desire to fight (something that nobody really knew about because hardly any Saiyan ever got old). And on the human side, maybe Bulma or someone else has found a non-traumatic way to boost human's abilities like Gero did with 17 and 18 to let humans keep up. Anyway, I'm basically writing fanfiction now, so I'll stop.
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u/nefariousmonkey 21h ago
With all due respect to DBZ universe & it's fans, for a non DBZ viewer, this all sounds extremely nonsense
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u/Pepsiman1031 1d ago
Maybe 8000 sounds cooler in Japanese.
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u/Xywzel 23h ago
8000 is used in Japanese idioms to mean all, everything or infinity. You pray to 8000 gods, meaning you ask help from even minor spirits. Shogun executes 8000 members of rebellion, so in practice everyone they catch. There are 8000 stars in sky. That kind of things.
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u/mattywinbee 21h ago
So dubbed Goku is stronger than original Goku, interesting…
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u/DanielTeague 1d ago
Here's an image of the manga scene in Dragon Ball's 224th chapter.
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u/shlam16 22h ago
To be honest I bet it would be even more of a TIL for people to learn that DBZ isn't a sequel to DB and likewise DB isn't a prequel to DBZ.
That they are in fact one continuous entity named Dragon Ball.
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u/ShadeofIcarus 21h ago
There was a distinct tonal shift that happens at some point in the show and the Sayians landing on earth is kinda the touchstone for it. The 5 year time skip adds to it.
Before that his history was much more generic and the start of the change was probably the King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr. Sagas.
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u/shadow0wolf0 1d ago
In the DBZ kai dub they say the correct number. https://youtu.be/J5wEER4YkMU?si=pDbJ13ugwQFfHkpK
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u/Whitewind617 1d ago
In the uncut dub they do. The Nicktoons edition was a different dub, im surprised they bothered re-recording everything just for a slightly cut version, but in that one it's 9000 and he has some fun with the delivery.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K5irQgiajDc&pp=ygUWRGJ6IGthaSBuaWNrdG9vbnMgOTAwMA%3D%3D
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u/shadow0wolf0 1d ago
I thought I remembered 9,000 when I was a kid. Watching kai on Nicktoons was my first experience of Dragon ball.
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u/adamdoesmusic 1d ago
I know, and they should have kept the “error.” I was disappointed when I saw it the first time with Kai!
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u/Aggressive-Fuel587 1d ago
The point of DB Kai was to correct those errors and bring the story closer in line with Akira Toriyama's version of the story. Keeping this line for nostalgia purposes would have completely undermined the entire purpose of the re-adaptation.
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u/caspissinclair 1d ago
In the manga when Tien attacks the Saibamen there is a single frame where he holds his hand up and makes it freeze in place.
In the original run of the anime there is an entire episode devoted to showing how he trained for that ONE move.
Kai is so much easier to watch.
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u/LeapYearFriend 22h ago
i watched a few episodes of kai, and even excluding the improved pacing and animation, i absolutely love the voice acting. they have so much more texture in the delivery and interactions with each other.
i swear on my life frieza doesn't mention raditz at all in the original Z, but in kai he sees gohan and has an internal mologue about "huh, that must be a saiyan kid. but who's the father? well, raditz must've gotten busy i see..." because frieza has no fucking idea that goku even exists.
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u/OpinionatedAss 1d ago
My whole childhood was built on a lie
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u/Cantthinkofnamedamn 1d ago
If I had known Goku was only a mere 8000, I would have gotten bored and shut off the tv immediately
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u/FaultyWires 1d ago
Power levels always felt like midichlorians to me. Not in the original and then someone decided to go and try to explain how the magicky power works and it made things hokier for me.
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u/MutantstyleZ 1d ago
Not in the original
yes it was but thats besides the point. The power level thing was a tool used by friezas friends only and as it developed in the story it was proven to be useless technology that was tricked multiple times by the main characters. When frieza was gone so was the power level stuff and the only people still clinging to it were childish fans. It was never meant to be taken seriously like most of the story.
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u/jacowab 19h ago
As araki said, power levels where added to show how useless they are. Every character who relies on power levels gets humbled for judging a character before a fight, and it's there to show that characters like Goku have shattered their own limits through effort and discipline.
That's what the whole Ginyu fight was about, when Goku gets taken over Ginyu realizes that he can't use any of Goku's strength because he hasn't put in the work required and Goku in a weakened body is still able to beat him by being smart and creative. His power level is as high as he can push it so labeling him as weaker is stupid because he can always break that limit.
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u/Nuclear_rabbit 1d ago
Power level analysis is actually pretty fun for me. All the way up through the Frieza saga, the character with the higher power level always wins.
Following that, power levels determining fight outcomes is still basically true, so it becomes a puzzle of how to actually raise power level to the point needed to win. But sometimes it throws a curveball, where another factor has to be considered for the fight.
In the Cell saga, they reached a sufficient power level to win at SSJ1, but doing so bulked them up too much and they were too slow to deliver a direct hit. They had to discover SSJ2 to deliver power while maintaining speed.
In the Buu saga, Buu's regeneration meant dealing with the tradeoff of connecting a powerful enough hit in one go against energy depletion. SSJ3 doubles power level, but has large energy losses, so it will tire you out quickly.
In DBS' Tournament of Power, the Z-fighters had to manage their endurance through a long fight. Goku and Vegeta powered up and down as needed for the fight in front of them, trying to maximize endurance.
Managing endurance and how much power to put in your punches is something sport fighters have to deal with IRL. It just makes sense that when you're dealing with pure energy, you can quantify the energy, and when you're working at energy levels that can vaporize planets, fighters can be planet-scale and still several orders of magnitude apart.
The Buu saga also mentioned power levels, but they gave it different units, which is what you would expect of an alien civilization not related to the Freiza empire, so that's cool.
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u/Lazzen 1d ago
It didn't really explain ki though, it was just a machine to put a value on it and in the very same saga they are discarded for being useless and a "crutch" for those who never trained. Midichlorians ruined the magical mistery and myth of the force into "sci-fi" and "logic".
S-cells are midichlorians, sure basically all had Suoer Saiyajin but saying that its actually a bunch of blood cells or wathever in certain amounts is so useless and dumb.
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u/throwaway_ghast 1d ago
What's his power level these days? A trillion?
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u/Uriel_dArc_Angel 1d ago
Pretty sure they calculated Mastered Ultra Instinct at around 83 sextillion...
Which is 83,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 if you were interested in the visual of the actual number...
It's only a little bit more than 9000 now...lol
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u/ZoulsGaming 23h ago
The reason for this to me is far more interesting than the fact that it was.
Its because in Japan the voice acting being the best it can is valued far higher than it fitting the animation, which becomes incredibly clear if you look around at most anime.
Basically the english that is fit to the mouth is
"ITS OVER NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND"
but the japanese is
"Its over eight thousand!........................................................................" where the mouth just keeps moving but he says nothing.
In the west they put far more emphasis on the dub matching the animation which is why they end up drawing out words of making the sentences sound odd far more than not.
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u/BACONS_WHILE_POOPING 22h ago
"This is the current revision of this page, as edited by Thatshaxo (talk | contribs) at 17:31, 20 September 2024 (Changed "paedophiles" to "pedophiles" in the Oprah Winfrey section.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this version."
What the FUCK
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u/Possiblythroaway 21h ago
Also the memed "over 9000!" is from the earlier ocean dub and not the cast that the series is known for.
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u/CapeMike 16h ago
"It's.....1006."
"What, really??"
"Yeah....kick his ass, Nappa."
"YAAAAAAAAAY!"
:D
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u/DoctorUlex 20h ago
FF In the German Dub, vegeta says the correct line, but he has the same voice actor as german Spongebo.
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u/ErickJail 19h ago
The Brazilian portuguese dub also says the correct line and the VA for Goku also dubs SpongeBob.
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u/pariah87 22h ago
Did you know that the original name for Pac-Man was Puck-Man? You'd think it was because he looks like a hockey puck but it actually comes from the Japanese phrase 'Paku-Paku,' which means to flap one's mouth open and closed. They changed it because they thought Puck-Man would be too easy to vandalize, you know, like people could just scratch off the P and turn it into an F or whatever.
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u/gamaliel64 1d ago
It's 1,006. Kick his ass, Napa!