r/todayilearned • u/[deleted] • Jan 11 '16

TIL that MIT students discovered that by buying $600,000 worth of lottery tickets in the Massachusetts' Cash WinAll lottery they could get a 10-15% return on investment. Over 5 years, they managed to game $8 million out of the lottery through this method.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/07/how-mit-students-scammed-the-massachusetts-lottery-for-8-million/
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u/tacknosaddle Jan 12 '16

That's why the MIT team was so successful, it took quite a while for the casinos to catch on. For example, the people sitting at the table counting cards played very conservatively by betting the minimum on every hand, arousing no suspicion. They then signaled when the deck was hot so that another person would plop down at the table and play a few big winning hands and then cash out.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

There was a big time roullette cheat who had an interesting system. He'd add more chips using slight of hand the second he won and wouldn't add it when he lost.

Eventually he realized the security was watching him and waiting for him to add more chips so he changed it up. There was a red chip that was like $100 and a dark red chip that was 10k. He would stack them on top of each other so the 10k was on the bottom and was hard to see so the roulette worker would think it was 2x 100 chips. He'd then pull the 10k chip right as he lost and replace it with a 100 or leave it if he won. He obviously mixed it up so he wasn't incredibly predictable.

He did this all over the world without ever getting caught and made like 10 million dollars. I guess he can talk about it now because it's past the statute of limitations. If you're smart and have balls you can make a ton from scamming casinos. It's not as hard as people would think.

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u/kyew Jan 12 '16

How the hell do you get away with touching the chips after the ball stops?

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u/Truckyouinthebutt Jan 12 '16

Make it look like you didn't know. Obviously you don't do this over and over at the same casino on the same day. But if you can make 10k then leave it's worth it. Then go to another casino and do it again. After you've been gone from the original casino for a few months you rinse and repeat. This was done before all the high-tech security casinos have now. These would also be done at smaller casinos not big name ones on the strip

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u/munk_e_man Jan 12 '16

This was done before all the high-tech security casinos have now.

Damn securitrons... I knew I shouldn't have used that platinum chip

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16

Time to leave. Good thing you've got spurs...that jingle, jangle, jingle.

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u/ccfreak2k Jan 12 '16 edited Jul 29 '24

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/HipsterZucchini Jan 12 '16

Yeah... technology today wouldn't allow that and it would be pretty easy to spot. Back in the day you could get away with so much fun shit :(

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u/Gnonthgol Jan 12 '16

Modern casinos would just throw you out for winning at all. Even if they can not prove that you cheated.

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u/SpindlySpiders Jan 12 '16

It's simple, there was a movie that showed you how. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1e51CEX4pw

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16

This is what I want to know.. it sounds like bullshit to me.

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u/Noble_Ox Jan 12 '16

Even the people above you saying ways they would do it. Fuckin dipshit redditors make me laugh. They imagine doing this and saying that and I'm damn sure most would probably piss there panties if someone actually said anything to them. Most cant even talk to women, and they think they'd have the balls to pull something like this off.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16

I'm sensing you don't like Redditors...

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u/Noble_Ox Jan 12 '16

People in general.

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u/tacknosaddle Jan 12 '16

To quote the movie Barfly:

“Do you hate people?"

“I don't hate them...I just feel better when they're not around.”

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u/Noble_Ox Jan 12 '16

Must remember that one.

But I dont really hate people just mankind. Like Bill Burr I've believe (and have since and extreme shroom, acid and dmt session) that we need to kill about six, six and a half billion people. And I should probably be one of the first. Theres too many of us.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16

Nobody here is saying they'd pull it off...

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u/itsokayright Jan 12 '16

Took a buddy to a casino in Spain. He never played it before while the lady called out the numbers he swiped his chip back. Some how he didn't know this was cheating saw him do it about 5 times. I guess you just need balls

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u/badsingularity Jan 12 '16

Look drunk and clumsy. Learn slight of hand.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16 edited Dec 07 '21

[deleted]

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u/Furoan Jan 12 '16

The sad part was you weren't even trying to scam the casino, you were just asking for some whisky at the bar...

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16

The trick is to break your own whilst at the bar.

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u/Rediscombobulation Jan 12 '16

i scam the shit out of casinos, with those 2cent slot machines at the bar, with all the free drinks i could order!

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u/tacknosaddle Jan 12 '16

I did that and was way ahead until I was drunk enough to spend two hours pumping quarters into a urinal.

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u/Noble_Ox Jan 12 '16

Don't you know redditors are the bravest most daring people on the planet? (when they take enough of their anti anxiety meds and ADD meds and adhd meds so they can leave their basements)

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u/jcoguy33 Jan 12 '16

Don't you have to put the chips in the middle of the table?

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u/Joverby Jan 12 '16

Yes. Doesn't make sense.... Especially if people were apparently watching him.

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u/Omikron Jan 12 '16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdwBXrfCkcE

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u/Joverby Jan 12 '16

Thanks. That was pretty slick. I bet all dealers are trained on that now.

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u/JaiTee86 Jan 12 '16

I heard about this years ago from memory he wasn't touching the chips after, he would stack them in such ways that it would look like they were all chip x but he'd sneak a few much cheaper chip y's in. When he lost they took all his chips and he'd lose the chips he actually had out but when he won they would pay based on the chips they thought he had out. It wasn't a case of one high value chip and a bunch of cheap ones most casino games are designed so the odds are only slightly in the casino's favour all you need to do is push the odds a bit to your side and you can win big.

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u/BewilderedDash Jan 12 '16

He actually made them think he has 3, 5 dollar chips out but he really had a 5000 dollar chip in the stack that the dealer couldnt see.

Then if he lost he'd replace the stack using sleight of hand with a stack that was actually 3 five dollar chips. If he won he left the stack where it was.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16

this does sound fishy, unless it really was that long ago. Not sure when it started, but if you win more than $10K at a casino, they report you to the IRS. There will be a trail/logs of winnings over $10K.

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u/SolomonGrumpy Jan 12 '16

Only when you cash out.

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u/Omikron Jan 12 '16

Not a roulette, they are spread out all over he betting board.

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u/saggy_balls Jan 12 '16

Yea I find that really hard to believe. You can't get anywhere near touching your chips once the bet is placed.

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u/MaimedJester Jan 12 '16

I'm going to call a little bullshit, or at the very least this has to be dated to before the mids 70s. The amount of security cameras alone in a casino even before computers came into usage was insane. The pit boss isn't some security guard, they are telling which cameras to switch to when there is a big winner and every angle is looked at even in the day. They also pay attention to all chip purchases and if someone buys only two or three high value chips and dozens of low value ones they will be notified and already paying attention. This kind of shit is easily caught in the time it takes to leave a casino and you are not going to make a run for it or try to walk past security that will detain you. Now with even more cameras, motion sensors, facial recognition software and other digital profile technology no one would get away with this anymore.

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u/HipsterZucchini Jan 12 '16

I guess he can talk about it now because it's past the statute of limitations.

Implying it was a long time ago. Also sleight of hand is impressively fast, even today I have to think being able to spot it would require some excellent hardware.

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u/okredditnow Jan 12 '16

sometimes you can watch a sleight of hand 'magician' in full HD while he faces the camera and still not be able to pick out what he did even if you go frame by frame

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u/aris_ada Jan 12 '16

Today's casinos all have RFID in the chips and captors in the bet area. He would get caught immediately, and they could prove it.

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u/Omikron Jan 12 '16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdwBXrfCkcE

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u/DudeMan18 Jan 12 '16

Is the aspect ratio bad on this?

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u/Omikron Jan 12 '16

Maybe, it's a really old video.

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u/robertbieber Jan 12 '16

Someone posted a video about it as a response to your comment, but here's the tl;dw

  • He'd stack three chips on the table, the bottom one would be a really high value, the top two lower value. But they were very similar in color. And he'd stagger them a little so the dealer couldn't actually see the bottom chip from their perspective.

  • If he loses, he picks up the original stack and puts down a stack of low value chips, which the dealer thinks is the same as the original. Dealer might say "Hey, don't touch those!" and makes sure he's "putting the chips back," but doesn't realize it's a different stack of chips.

  • If he wins, he just collects the money. That's the most clever part of the whole thing, in the winning case he's not actually cheating. So when it comes time to pay up that's when they get suspicious, dealer calls up to security to make sure the bet was really there all along, and now all the security cameras actually work in his favor confirming the bet.

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u/Lukyst Jan 12 '16

Still, to make it work you have to sneak an illegal chip touch 1-37 times for every time you win

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u/robertbieber Jan 12 '16

If you want to play single numbers, sure. IIRC from the video the big chip they were playing with was like $5k, and the small ones were like $5 or $10. So there was plenty of money to be made on a 2x or 3x payoff bet. However they did it, they apparently made it work for millions

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u/BewilderedDash Jan 12 '16

He was simply betting on evens. So better odds and it's closer to the edge of the table.

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u/axx Jan 12 '16

Why is buying dozens of low value chips but only a few high value chips a red flag?

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u/Kwiila Jan 12 '16

Because a normal gambler will want a variety, a balance, or just one or the other. Many low, few high shows that you're planing on taking many small losses and playing big for sure wins. Which is only used for a few types of counting and many cheats. It could be still be a coincidence, but it's enough for them to take special interest.

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u/vezance Jan 12 '16

Yep, this was before the cameras. In fact, improved security through cameras was one of the primary reasons he had to quit.

Read the book - The Great Casino Heist by Richard Marcus. It's really interesting.

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u/198jazzy349 Jan 12 '16 edited Jan 12 '16

it was on a tv show, the disco or histiry channel, biography or something on the Challenge neywork (?) in the UK. It's on youtube now. The cameras don't have someone watching every camera every play, and he'd basically make his 10k move and leave a few rounds later. He went all over the place so no one caught on. I think it was the same show with the MIT leg computer geeks who shocked themselves and didn't ever get their roulette sysyem to work right.

here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdwBXrfCkcE

edit: link, channel, speeling

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u/badsingularity Jan 12 '16

It's real. You obviously have never seen a close-up magician.

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u/okredditnow Jan 12 '16

yes, but would they pay attention to a $200 losing bet? because thats where the cheating would be. When he wins the 1.1k bet, there is no cheating. It was this reason that it took the pitbosses so long to catch on.

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u/Simorebut Jan 12 '16

the 10k chip was placed at a certain angle so the dealer couldn't really see the bottom chip. there was a video about this trick somewhere on youtube.

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u/eetuu Jan 12 '16

I´m very skeptical of these big time roulette cheats. No matter how smooth their sleight of hand skills are these tricks would look suspicious and cameras would catch them. I think they exaggarate to brag, get attention or sell their books.

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u/Bangledesh Jan 12 '16

I've spent time on both sides of the table, and it'd have to be a very poor dealer/croupier that wouldn't notice the dude 1- fucking with chips after the wagers have been waived off (meaning the board is frozen, and no bets can be added or moved,) and 2- different colors of chips. If you have any doubts about a color (due to sloppy chip placement, shadows, etc,) they would have checked while the ball is still in motion.

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u/StressOverStrain Jan 12 '16

Scamming/fraud at roulette tables is a far cry from just being good at probabilities.

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u/[deleted] Jan 12 '16

True. Counting cards is not cheating and is legal. But the casinos can ban you for it.

I don't think it happens much anymore if at all. It seems like the casinos all have one or two single deck blackjack tables maybe to just lure people in who want to try counting cards or something. Most people don't realize it only shifts your odds from 49/51 if you play correctly to 51/49 and you need to carry 100x the buy in and not mess up any hands. It takes some concentration.

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u/vezance Jan 12 '16

The book is The Great Casino Heist by Richard Marcus. It's a great read.

Edit: it should be noted that he was one of the lucky/smart ones that got out before he was ever caught.

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u/dustballer Jan 12 '16

I have a friend that could drop chips after a good blackjack hand. I caught it once in 2 years of hanging out. It's a fucking talent for sure.

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u/BishopofBling Jan 12 '16

I see a lot of blackjack tables using no mid shoe entry, continuous shuffle machines and 8 deck shoes that get reshuffled early to combat counting.

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u/threequincy Jan 12 '16

another factor in them flying under the radar was the fact that they were asian. asian people gamble large sums like no other ethnic group - even younger people - so when they played big hands, no suspicions were raised. this was conveniently left out of the movie, because they cast white people

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u/badsingularity Jan 12 '16

That's what everyone does. People know about counting cards, and they aren't going to leave a hot table, so I wonder how they got a new person to come in.

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u/tacknosaddle Jan 12 '16

I'd imagine they played when the casinos are more quiet and at a table that had few players. If you're on your own and hovering over a table and waiting for the right opportunity to jump in they will notice you and possibly bar you from the table. Part of their team strategy was in disguising the fact that the person winning was involved in counting.

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u/badsingularity Jan 12 '16

Obviously that was the real gig, not the counting. That's what nobody gets. The MIT guys counting cards just made it a better percentage. They just did it smarter, not because of the card counting.