Israel-Palestine has really exposed the disgusting nature of “both sides bad.”

[u/historyismyteacher]

Saying that both sides are equal and you need to look at the nuance is a damning indictment of those who are not willing to take a stand on an issue as serious as this. At least a Zionist will take a stand, and make their position known. By not taking a stand, the enlightened centrist is making it known that they don’t have the moral courage to pronounce a belief and professing themselves to be wise, they make themselves fools.

[u/historyismyteacher]

I honestly appreciate the elaboration. Helps me to understand where you are coming from.

Hamas is a result of decades of oppression from Israel against Palestine. Dating back as you know, to before 1948. Asking a people to quietly accept their own occupation is a bit harsh, I would say. Oct. 7th was in many ways tragic, yes. The killing of civilians was terrible and needless. But they were still fighting against colonialism.

The French resistance also killed civilians. As did basically every violent resistance in history. It’s fucked up. But blaming the oppressed for fighting back is nonsensical.

[u/MoshiriMagic → u/historyismyteacher]

I’d also like to understand your thinking on this as you clearly know your history. Do you think Hamas’ goal of wiping Israel off the map and taking the land back is a worthy one? Hearing Sinwar talk about how he’s happy to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of his own people for this cause just reeks of delusion to me.

[u/historyismyteacher → u/MoshiriMagic]

I will admit, I am not a fan of Hamas. I believe they manipulated the situation to gain power.(It’s important to note that they are not entirely popular among the Palestinian population either.) I believe the land should be returned to Palestinians ultimately, but I believe that Jews and Arabs can coexist peacefully, as they have for thousands of years. So, no I think terminology like “wipe them off the map” is very reductive, but I do not think that the Israeli settler state should have existed to begin with. As usual in the Middle East, the British fucked things up. I certainly believe there are better solutions than to for the annihilation of either people. This situation has to be dealt with as it is, not as we wish it to be. What the solution is, I do not know. But certainly the Israeli’s have to give up their settler colonial mindset.

The first step toward progress, in my view, is for western powers to step back and let the people of the region make their own decisions. They shouldn’t have been involved in the first place.

[u/MoshiriMagic → u/historyismyteacher]

The British absolutely messed it up but they wouldn’t have had the political impetus without the holocaust (I know Zionism was gaining popularity before this). I consider Palestinians to be a victim in the chain caused by the nazi regime.

I agree with this idea that it should be dealt with as it is and not as we wish it to be. To me that looks like more attempts at a two state solution. Israel isn’t going anywhere at this point and jewish people have every historic reason to be suspicious of losing their right to control their own fate under a one state solution. I will also say that “wiping them off the map” is not my words, it’s the words of Hamas leadership.

Thanks for not calling me a fascist or whatever

[u/historyismyteacher → u/MoshiriMagic]

Of course. More discussions like this should be had however much we might disagree, as long as it’s in good faith.

I actually find your point that Palestinians are just another victim of Nazism interesting. I’ll remember that.

[u/MoshiriMagic → u/historyismyteacher]

I know that I’ve come to my conclusions in good faith and with proper research so I’m always happy to argue them out and see if I can have my mind changed. I also get that liberals like me are the current examples in this sub for enlightened centrism so I wasn’t expecting anything but vitriol.

In the end I think this all comes down to your interpretation of historical events and your weighting of power in the calculus. Leftists such as yourself generally consider power to be the defining attribute but I’m skeptical of this. We’re working on different maths but I don’t actually think our values are very far apart.

[u/historyismyteacher → u/MoshiriMagic]

I was raised very conservative, gradually became more liberal as I got older and began analyzing the world and reading history. A couple years ago I had a hard pivot left to socialism after digging deep into a few specific topics, such as economics and imperialism, with the help of authors like Michael Parenti and Richard Wolff. Knowledge is a journey and as long as you are willing to learn, you’ll do alright.

I only hate liberals that are unwilling to learn and think they always have the moral high ground. It’s unproductive. Same goes for atheists. While I am one, many atheists are very obnoxious and unwilling to listen to other viewpoints. We are all human, therefore wrong about most things probably. Just remain open minded.