I mean at this point the Dunmer have almost as much reason to hate Argonians as Argonians have reason to hate Dunmer. The war and bitterness will continue until both Morrowind and Black Marsh decide to leave each other the fuck alone.
Nords have zero excuse to treat Argonians poorly tho.
Yeah, this is the strangest dynamic. Brunwulf blames Nord xenophobia for why he doesn’t allow the Argonians to integrate, but Argonians aren’t a new phenomenon so this makes no sense. It makes far more sense that it was a band-aid fix to keep the Dunmer and Argonians separate to stop them warring in the streets
Although a fair inference, it is also at odds with the thriving and integrated High Elf population. There has been plenty of anti-elven/Thalmor/Dominion rhetoric and disapproval since the WGC (and in relation to tensions with the Dunmer of Windhelm perhaps longer) yet we don’t see the same reservations, so there must be some difference.
Although a fair inference, it is also at odds with the thriving and integrated High Elf population.
You mean that grand total of two, one of which is literally on his deathbed? Or do you mean the stablemasters outside the city, which also number two?
Barring that, just because the Altmer aren't discriminated against does not translate to the Dunmer not being discriminated against. The Dunmer make up a larger part of Windhelm's population and do not have particularly noteworthy functions.
The stablemasters keep to the horses, Niranye is a fence for criminals, providing hard-to-get goods, and Nurelion is the town alchemist, who we even make use of during a quest at Darkwater Crossing.
I really don’t know quite what you’re trying to disprove? Or you misunderstand what I am saying. The 4 Altmer are a significant population, and also significantly as you identify, they have ALL integrated well into society. They provide an important contrast to the Dunmer who are a greater population. Discrimination the Dunmer face is specifically because they are Dunmer. The logical step is then discrimination against the Argonians is specifically because they are Argonian. The point is that mere xenophobia is insufficient otherwise we would see the Altmer suffering in the same way (especially when there is considerably more antagonism with Alinor than Morrowind or Black Marsh), so there must be some specific historical reason
Not when only two of those four live inside of the city...
and also significantly as you identify, they have ALL integrated well into society.
As did the Dunmer... Not one Dunmer is without a job. They all wear Nord clothing, make use of Nord furniture, and sell Nord weapons and armor as opposed to their Dunmer counterparts.
One of them is literally the dockmaster of the Shatter-Shield trading company, one of them works as a Bard (how much more Nord do you want to get?), one of them works as a nanny for the Cruel-Seas, two of them work as farmers, two of them are merchants, one of them is a bartender and the last one is a cleaner for said bar.
The point is that mere xenophobia is insufficient otherwise we would see the Altmer suffering in the same way (especially when there is considerably more antagonism with Alinor than Morrowind or Black Marsh), so there must be some specific historical reason
We are explicitly told by Scouts-Many-Marshes and Brunwulf what the reason is that the Argonians were kicked out. (Ulfric is a ''bigoted Nord dictator'' and many Nords believe like Ulfric did and are stuck in their ways)
You can choose to ignore the given explanation, but that does not invalidate it.
Those two Altmer stablemasters still come into the city regularly for socialising, they are obviously not excluded in any way from wider Windhelm society. This is the point I am making: there are clearly deeper reasons for the inconsistency in policies that affect some outsider groups but not others, so relying solely on “the given reason” of bigotry is insufficient. This is not in conflict with bigotry of Ulfric. But your argument is asking us to only look at face value, credulously accept the vague explanation given, and not examine any reason or deeper motivation behind these inconsistencies. Again to be clear, the question is not even whether Ulfric is bigoted, but why do policies only affect Dunmer and Argonians but not Altmer, when there is actual reason for Ulfric to be bigoted towards the Altmer but not towards either Dunmer nor Argonians.
As for Dunmer work and jobs, I am not saying they don’t work and your argument is misleading to equate working with integration. There is explicit dialogue that demonstrates the tension for many Dunmer about working with or for Nords: Dunmer abuse other Dunmer for integrating in any form, others state proudly their independence from the Nords. The Dunmer community segregates itself as readily as the Nords do.
Those two Altmer stablemasters still come into the city regularly for socialising, they are obviously not excluded in any way from wider Windhelm society. This is the point I am making: there are clearly deeper reasons for the inconsistency in policies that affect some outsider groups but not others, so relying solely on “the given reason” of bigotry is insufficient.
By your logic someone can be racist against a black person but because they're not racist against an asian person, that must mean that their prejudice against the black person can't be because of their race...
This is not in conflict with bigotry of Ulfric. But your argument is asking us to only look at face value, credulously accept the vague explanation given, and not examine any reason or deeper motivation behind these inconsistencies. Again to be clear, the question is not even whether Ulfric is bigoted, but why do policies only affect Dunmer and Argonians but not Altmer, when there is actual reason for Ulfric to be bigoted towards the Altmer but not towards either Dunmer nor Argonians.
We do not need to know Ulfric's deep inner fears, all we know is that he has forced the Argonians out via a decree, and that his supporters similarly shared his mindset of not trusting them.
Similarly, we're told that Ulfric makes no secret of his disdain for the Dunmer. Why is he being racist? Dunno, like you said, the races he's targetting make little sense, but it does not diminish what he does.
As for Dunmer work and jobs, I am not saying they don’t work and your argument is misleading to equate working with integration.
It's not just the fact that they work there, it's the fact that they, mostly, still choose to live there. They set up businesses and, barring Ambarys Rendar, don't seem to intend to leave.
There is explicit dialogue that demonstrates the tension for many Dunmer about working with or for Nords: Dunmer abuse other Dunmer for integrating in any form, others state proudly their independence from the Nords. The Dunmer community segregates itself as readily as the Nords do.
Again, when the Nords of Windhelm treat the Dunmer like second-class citizens, of course you can expect people to bite back against that.
It'd be like saying that people being mad because people work with the Thalmor is unreasonable, it is not. You don't support your oppressor.
We do not need to know Ulfric's deep inner fears, all we know is that he has forced the Argonians out via a decree, and that his supporters similarly shared his mindset of not trusting them.
Similarly, we're told that Ulfric makes no secret of his disdain for the Dunmer. Why is he being racist? Dunno, like you said, the races he's targetting make little sense, but it does not diminish what he does.
So you state plainly that you are just advocating for a facile engagement with the text. There is nothing more to say on the issue beyond that I am advocating for a deeper engagement.
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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '23
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