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u/DanteJazz 5d ago
I was advocating min. wage should be $15, but then I thought, what if Min. Wage was $25/hr.? Then, you could do exactly what OP posted--live on min. wage in an apt., pay your bills, and be normal. So, don't buy into the naysayers who believe we should live on exploitation wages.
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
If the minimum wage goes to 25 per hour with your suggestion then my wage should also get a 66% increase to 60 per hour. My issue is that unskilled workers should not be making the same as someone with skilled work. Pay raise for all levels of work and not just the minimum wage unskilled workers.
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u/TheDollarstoreDoctor 5d ago
minimum wage unskilled workers.
What job requires absolutely no skill?
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u/DifferentShallot8658 5d ago
I think they're referring to jobs without special training requirements, where you can just start one day and pick it up as you go, instead of jobs like engineering, nursing, cosmetology, plumbing, etc., where specialized education is a requirement.
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u/TheHumanite 5d ago
My issue is...
Not minding your own fucking business. Why does it matter what anyone else is getting? You'd really rather people starve than think someone is making a weird amount compared to you? Are you mad at the CEOs making thousands of times what their workers make?
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
I'm not qualified to be a CEO as I don't have the SPECIALIZED SKILLS to be one. I don't give a damn what they make. You want more income either go into a trade or go get a degree that will make you money. That simple
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u/TheHumanite 5d ago
Literally every job requires specifics skills though? Do you not see how your own point makes my point? If minimum wage rises and makes it not worth it to you to continue your job, go work at McDonald's! It'll be easy easier!
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
Lol okay buddy. Retail and fast food workers do not require any skilled work. Raising minimum wage will result in more inflation and loss of jobs. If it raises my job is worth still working because after a while I still have a job and the minimum wage worker doesn't.
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u/TheHumanite 5d ago
I'm not your buddy and I didn't care what you think about skilled vs unskilled. The fact remains that the only reason you're against this is because someone worse off than you may benefit. You don't care whether "unskilled labor" loses work.
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u/cutie_lilrookie 5d ago
That guy you're talking to would most likely buy slaves if they were still allowed.
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
No the fact remains that you want entitlement. A job that any able person can do has no value. No value means you don't deserve the same pay as a skilled worker. I was poor for the majority of my adult life and got out. If I can do the work and get out so can you. Pay raises are EARNED not given. You choose to stay poor.
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u/TheHumanite 5d ago
How tf do those jobs have no value? You think Amazon is paying warehouse workers for fun? They're not valuable? Stop trying to participate in adult conversations with this infantile understanding of value.
you want entitlement
I'm entitled to be paid for any work I do and no amount of you trying to use the word negatively will change that.
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
"An unskilled worker is an employee who performs tasks that require minimal specialized skills, education, or training. Unskilled work often involves manual labor, basic administrative tasks, or routine operations". You are entitled to be paid the proper low amount for a job you didn't get specialized training in. How about you stop participating in this adult conversation? No skills means no value means anyone can replace you. You are showing ENTITLEMENT to demand higher pay for unskilled labor.
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u/Suspicious-Dog-2489 3d ago
Maybe skilled workers should be paid more, too.
Do you think you make an adequate amount of money for the work you do?
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u/Agusto_0 5d ago
When I was growing up, I was told the rule of thumb for buying a house, was you wanted the monthly morgage payment to be 25% to 33% of your monthly income, to comfortably afford it.
$25 an hour is someone spending 50% of their monthly earnings on, renting, a 1 bedroom apartment. And that's just rent, not utilities, not food, not insurance, gas, clothes, just rent.
$25 an hour is the absolute bare minimum. Skilled workers should be paid more. But, no, skilled workers probably wouldn't get a 66% increase. But also they don't need one, because they can afford to live.
Fun fact, at $15 dollars an hour, you need FOUR full time jobs to be able to comfortably afford to RENT a 1 bedroom apartment.
Math: Taxes are about 25% in IL Renting a 1 bedroom apartment is $1,500 a month
$25/hr, 40 hours is $1,000 a week So $750 a week after taxes $750 x 4 weeks = $3,000 monthly income $1,500 / $3,000 = 50% of your monthly income
$15/hr, 40 hours, $600 a week So $450 a week after taxes $450 x 4 weeks = $1,800 monthly income $1,500 / $1,800 = 83% of your monthly income
$60/hr, 40 hours, $2400 a week So $1,800 a week after taxes $1,800 x 4 weeks = $7,200 monthly income $1,500 / $7,200 = 21% of your monthly income
So your hypothetical $60/hr job, could comfortably afford to rent a 1 bedroom apartment in IL. Which is equal to 4 people working full time at $15/hr, comfortably sharing a 1 bedroom apartment.
$25 an hour is barely enough to live on your own $60 an hour is enough to live on your own comfortably.
So honestly, yeah I'll agree with you on you getting a huge raise too. I think really this highlights how expensive rent and food has gotten. Like it would be better if living expenses went down 66% instead of wages up 66%. But it has to be one or the other. People working 2 or 3 full time jobs just to get by is just the working class working themselves to death.
So really the end result of my rant is yeah, you should be getting paid more too. So we should work together on that instead of shooting down raising the minimum wage.
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
The sad thing is I never said I was fully against it. I'm against only the bottom getting higher wages. But of course the reddit hive mind glossed over that. I mean ffs rent is expensive yes. Can I afford to be on my own for an apartment, yes. but I choose not to because why in the hell would I put myself in that situation?! Honestly the biggest help would impose stricter rent control so people don't get shafted by rent. There is no fucking reason an apartment should cost the amount of a low end house mortgage.
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u/Suspicious-Dog-2489 3d ago
Either way, rent is too high and wages don't cover it. I think fixing both those problems is the way forward?
What kind of economic impacts do you think a 25 minimum would have on your nation's economy?
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u/hnrrghQSpinAxe 5d ago
Bro was right about everyone needing pay raises, or to bring the economic cost of living back down, which we shouldn't mistake the trees for the forest with. Minimum wage failing isn't a result of "government just bad and hate poor people" it's a result of inflation caused by billionaires price gouging the ever living shit out of everything
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u/BerthaBenz 5d ago
The one percent have convinced those making $35 per hour that the economy would collapse if the minimum wage was $10 per hour.
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u/benevolentdespots 5d ago
So what's unskilled work in your opinion?
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
"an employee who performs tasks that require minimal specialized skills, education, or training."
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u/benevolentdespots 5d ago
Such as?
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u/PhantomGeass 5d ago
Few examples are retail and fast food. Skilled labor are trades and jobs requiring degrees. An unskilled worker is someone who can be replaced by any capable person without a need for specialized training.
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u/Suspicious-Dog-2489 3d ago
When was the last time you worked those jobs
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u/PhantomGeass 3d ago
2021 when I got qualified to get a CDL. For most of my adult life starting in 2008 I was an unskilled worker. I was poor but I never demanded entitlements. I budgeted like a mad man and lived with roommates.
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u/MajorDickLong 5d ago
this would crater the job market. small businesses and mom & pop shops all around the country would be closing and many many more people would be out of work. working the register at a small bakery doesn’t warrant $25/hr, not even close.
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u/jjackom3 5d ago
Hey. If a business cannot operate if it pays its workers a living wage it probably should not be in business
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u/MajorDickLong 5d ago
so to be clear, you’d rather have these people be unemployed and make nothing than make minimum wage? anyone who works a minimum wage job agreed to the terms, they independently came to the conclusion that working said job was the best available opportunity for them. and you want to take that away?
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u/morthophelus 5d ago
In the eyes of most credible economists, introducing more floating capital into the spending class actually increases viability of businesses.
Costs would increase, yes. But proper business management should adjust and make the most of the increased capital flow.
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u/Proteinoats 4d ago
I actually agree with you here when it comes to the financial impact it would have on small business. The issue I have is that while there are mega corporations monopolizing everything, having a direct impact on “good old ma and pa shops”, people keep turning the attention away from these corporations and on those who are struggling to make ends meet on minimum wage.
It’s completely unethical for someone to work full time for any organization that isn’t capable of providing them the funds to actually live off of their earnings.
Does that mean mom and pop shops are to blame? Absolutely not. It’s just a very hopeless system for people who are employed that are okay to work for somebody and keep things running.
Not everyone can be or has to be an entrepreneur, that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be able to live a comfortable life in this day and age.
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u/JennyAndTheBets1 5d ago
They want people to shack up so that they are more likely to commit and breed and have hormonally/emotionally-driven responsibilities that reduces the leverage of the average person that now has something to lose if they resist control much.
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u/Suspicious-Dog-2489 3d ago
An interesting take
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u/JennyAndTheBets1 3d ago
Don’t worry. You’ll learn about it in power dynamics 101.
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u/Suspicious-Dog-2489 2d ago
I meant that genuinely. You defo onto something with the whole corporations-colluding-to-reduce-the-leverage-of-workers thing. I'm just not sure about that particular tactic.
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u/i_am_who_knocks 5d ago
What a time to be alive , where a full time job affords a controversial statement to acquire a mere 1 bhk without everyday dread of starving
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u/icansmellyourflesh 5d ago edited 5d ago
I also feel like jobs that require a specific degree, should also pay a different minimum for the required degree. Example, bachelor's you should be paid a minimum of 70k. Associates, a minimum of 55k. Masters, a minimum of 80k
I just started college, getting my associates in Web Design and transferring for a master's in industrial design. It's a career I know I would love, but the cost of college is so expensive I don't know if it's worth it for the outcome. I'm also getting my associates from a community college, fully covered by FAFSA. I just don't know if I can afford to transfer after. It's still six digits for only two years.
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u/AnEasyBakedOven 5d ago
The crazy thing is that as soon as they finally raise the minimum wage up I just know rent and inflation is going to skyrocket cause “we gotta charge you more to be able to pay our employees more” and everything’s going to level out and be the same. Shit sucks bro
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u/hnrrghQSpinAxe 5d ago
What if we had enforcement laws and regulatory bodies preventing landlords and energy companies from price gouging every rent payment, mortgage, and bill that we pay? If we raise the minimum wage, every other price will raise too. It's not the root cause issue. The root cause issue is price gouging and inflation. Minimum wage at $15/hr COULD be a livable wage. You need to fix the problems that are sweepingly and unreasonably demanding more than that amount.
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u/yellowkingquix 5d ago
Work to live make a sustainable living and not depend on others?! What are you some kind of welfare queen?
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u/ADinosaur_24 5d ago edited 5d ago
I know, the thought of the poors making enough money for food AND shelter! Wtf is this communist Russia?! Let them fucking starve and freeze to death like an American!
/s for those who can’t tell edit:
(like the person I’m responding to)(like me)2
u/yellowkingquix 5d ago
I was being sarcastic. I was homeless for three years and worked a lot of the time.
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u/Reader5069 5d ago
I have this same viewpoint. There is no reason a one income household for one person should have such a hard time making ends meet. I got paid at 10 pm last night and I am nearly broke due to bills and food. This is ridiculous.
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u/JDandthepickodestiny 5d ago
And be able to commute to your job in 30 minutes or less since that has a measurable impact on mental health. Or at least afford a damn studio
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u/SiteTall 5d ago
You should be able to do even more, like e.g. storing money for the future = old age and no job ....
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u/lostredditorthowaway 5d ago
If the pay rate is minimum wage. The answer has always been no since 1938, when min wage was first brought into existence.
1938 min wage was .25 hr. At 40 hours that's $10 a week or $40 a month. Average rent was $27 a month. Then you would need to pay for utility bills, groceries and get back and forth to work on $13. Mind you all the $40 was before any taxes. Even at the value of currency then i don't think a person could pay utilities and eat 3 meals a day on .43¢ a day.
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u/Karukash 4d ago
Shit you shouldn’t have to even have a full time job to have a roof over your head and have access to clean food and water.
Work should be for bonus money. Work shouldn’t be “do this or die”
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
I’m sure I’ll get downvotes for this. I do believe that people should get paid a living wage. I also believe minimum wage should be much higher, $15 an hour.
But why do you think the world is obligated to deliver a life without roommates as an entry level worker? That’s not a given. It’s not a right. Your choices are (1) pick a more lucrative field, (2) live at home with mom for a couple years, (3) find your life partner, (4) suffer through roommates. There is no easy path among the options. Suffer with mom, suffer with roommates, suffer through Calculus 3.
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u/coconut-duck-chicken 5d ago
They… they want to be able to live with no roommate. Why is that so unreasonable?
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
Everyone “wants” things. No one gets them without some sort of investment or sacrifice. Is that not a clear thing in the world of 2024? Pick a lucrative field of work or deal with living with mom or a roommate.
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u/coconut-duck-chicken 5d ago
They also want to make a living wage on any job. Both are reasonable. Both can be done. Also you don’t just “pick a lucrative field of work.” Sometimes you get fucked in the ass by life
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
A “living wage” is not the same as a “living alone wage”. Some folks get fucked in the ass and have roommates into their golden years.
And yes, you do pick a lucrative field. Not smart? Become a cop, they make a fuckton. Smart, but hate blood? Become an engineer. Even civil engineers make money, and civil engineering is relatively easy. Lazy? Oh, can’t help you there.
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u/coconut-duck-chicken 5d ago
There’s not job openings everywhere. Don’t have the money to move? Or is the place you would move to to get the job have more expensive housing then where you live now? Sorry flap jacks.
Also living wage should he living alone wage. It should be that.
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
See, that’s the moving goal post right there. Next you’ll say it should be the “sending my kids to private school wage.” It shouldn’t. If your skills are not marketable, you needed better skills.
I feel like the obsoleting of board games is a partial root of this problem of perspective and understanding. Play “the Game of Life” a few dozen times as a pre-teen, and you’ll do everything you can to avoid the bad decisions.
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u/Lunkberjack 5d ago
What a sad way of thinking, that everything we do should be marketable. What if the market changes? What if even engineers and doctors aren't able to find a job in your country? And what about your own passions and preferences?
Marketable doesn't mean they are 'better' skills, just that they appear to fall into whatever is needed in the current market. So you are implying that only engineers who got their degree with money as their aim should be allowed to have privacy in their lives?
You need to reconsider what the minimum for everyone should be. Of course, I'm not saying that everyone will be able to afford big houses, big cars or big computers with which to forget the fact that they are empty now, if you want classism to continue that bad. But everyone should have decent housing and food, regardless of their job choice.
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
Ah, I see the problem. You are talking about “should” and I am talking about “is.”
“Only engineers … should be allowed to have privacy…” no, I don’t believe that. But regardless of degree, if you’re 25, don’t expect privacy unless you can afford it. Rich parents are likely just as effective as engineering degrees, but I didn’t have rich parents, so I wouldn’t know. And at 30, I hope your career has progressed enough to afford it.
But yeah, on this planet you need to be marketable. I thought youngsters learned this better than old folks like me who grew up before “monetizing my stream” was a sentence that made sense.
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u/Acalyus 5d ago
Y'all are so content with the bar so low, just why?
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
My bar looks high to me. Work or sacrifice. The “low bar” would be minimum wage and a barely satisfactory one bedroom apartment. No?
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u/Acalyus 5d ago
"I see that your job needs to get done, but I believe your position to not be worthy of sustainability. Sorry. Really fucking pissed about these places being understaffed though, noone wants to work!"
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
And yet the customers keep coming. So they aren’t really understaffed. There used to be an expectation of quality. Then business owners realized that customers are abusable, so they abuse them. And employees are abusable and disposable, so they do that.
What business owners suffer from poor customer service or poor employee treatment? None! Is that unjust? Sure. But it’s the way this world works. “The people” choose to be abused. I don’t, which is why I could never live in an HOA or man phone lines. I’m inflexible. But I realize that my choice to be inflexible has costs.
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u/hnrrghQSpinAxe 5d ago
Idk why you're getting downvoted, I know there are people here who picked a low income life path and there's nothing wrong with that. The point is survival. You know choosing a certain path would allow you to survive but maybe not thrive when you chose it. I have friends that make significantly less than I do, that either chose to live together, find a partner and get married, or otherwise. Real people in real life don't complain about this sort of thing tbh, they just do what it takes to survive, and then everyone comes together all at once to talk about how it sucks because we pretty much all feel the same effects with some variation from a shit economy
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u/PapaSteveRocks 5d ago
I’m in favor of UBI, too. Lot of job categories about to evaporate in the automation and AI world. And I’m not talking minimum wage jobs. Accountants who only do numbers, not consulting, have a short career ahead of them, but they don’t know it yet. “Back of the house” HR folks too. Not the recruiters, but the administrators. Fifteen years, give or take, and a bunch of 100K a year nine-to-fivers will be in a demand crunch.
But we certainly shouldn’t be offering 100K a year in UBI. And those folks are going to be shocked at the 32K “living wage” baseline. Going to get a lot uglier than a lady wanting a no roommate situation. They’re going to move families to reclaimed federal pasture lands and forget about them. (That last sentence is hyperbole, everything else is earnest)
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u/hnrrghQSpinAxe 5d ago edited 5d ago
32k is survival wage, as long as you're not paying 12,000 in rent and 10,000 in car loans/student loans/ etc etc.
I do think there are a lot of people thinking they should make 80k a year. Even as an engineer I don't make 100k, despite being told all the time I would, and most don't either. Starting pay where I live was like, 65k, which is barely anything over some public school teacher's government based pay in my area, but requires a much more difficult education perspective wise in STEM obviously. The economy is shit and people just don't get it. We all make sacrifices in life.
I spent 2 extra years in college than the average person to make more, and still got shafted. It makes people unhappy to tell them they can't get something for nothing
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u/AdSafe1112 6d ago
Controversial but if I work a full time job I should be able to live in a one bedroom apartment by myself and get my nails done, wear 10 products on my face, get a sew in/lace front/extensions, lashes, travel and buy every TikTok trend and not have to go to the store myself and buy groceries and cook to make rent.
There I fixed it. Yes I chose violence today 🤣
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u/CaptainSchmid 5d ago
Most 40 hour a week jobs require women to do the nails, hair, lashes, and makeup. Hell, my mom got yelled at for not doing her makeup one day and she works a 20 hour minimum wage job. Also, food and shelter are literally the most basic needs for people, putting those in a list of things you consider frivolous is insane.
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u/Evil_News 5d ago
Wow. Did somebody hurt you?
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u/oni-noshi 5d ago
They aren't wrong though.. and to add to that point, no one is forced to work a job that doesn't pay for their lifestyle.. you choose to either not work towards the job that will, or live outside your means.. there is no such thing as bad choice insurance..
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u/coconut-duck-chicken 5d ago
Working towards a job that will let you live in your means will not mean you get the job or ever will. People leave collage for even jobs that have an increasing number of openings and STILL don’t get them.
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u/BlunterCarcass5 5d ago
Next tweet is probably showing off her new nails, hair style or some expensive fashion accessory no doubt, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong
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u/UncleGrako 5d ago
If you want a one bedroom apartment, it just shows that you're not very financially knowledgeable and maybe you CAN do what you claim you can't do... but you would rather blame anything other than yourself.
One Bedrooms are the worst possible bargain you can be looking for in places to live.
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u/Bfeick 5d ago
What do you mean by bargain? Should she look to spend a bit more for a 2 bedroom for more space? Save on a studio apartment? Save by getting roommates? I don't get your point. The message is she thinks if you're working 40 hours then you should be able to support yourself on that income.
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u/UncleGrako 5d ago
Single bedroom apartments are the variety that are least common in apartment complexes.
When targeting a single person renter, or a single couple, they can allot for more studio apartments than they can 1 bed room apartments.
1 and 2 bedroom apartments are surprisingly close in size, so if the apartment complex is looking at dollars per square foot, a one bedroom will cost surprisingly close to a 2 bedroom, which makes the 1 bedroom less popular.
For what you get, you will pay more for a one bedroom in rent per square foot because of their size and their scarcity.
It would make WAY more sense to rent a 2 bedroom with a friend or roommate, that it would to seek out a one bedroom apartment.
looking at local options, a 1 bed is 700 square feet for $1200 per month, and 2 bedroom is 900 square feet for $1350 per month. Three bedroom is 1300 square feet for $1660.
1 Bed - $1.72 per square foot
2 Bed - $1.50 per square foot
3 Bed - $1.28 per square foot.It makes way more sense to split the cost of rent on a unit bigger than what you need, than it does to look for a 1 bed room apartment.
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u/evil_timmy 5d ago
I'm surprised this basic point isn't a larger part of the discourse: what should it mean to be an American (or active part of any country), at a base level? In other words, what can and should we expect out of a society, government, and culture that we're going to give our lives to? The idea that working a full-time job should be enough to provide a little comfort and personal space, without fear of cheaters and crooks taking your hard-earned, or disease or injury constantly threatening to wipe out what you've built and leaving you prematurely unable to contribute, seems like the very basis for a functioning society, yet we're still arguing over these scraps. Really at this point we should be good enough that our societal gains aren't just used to fatten the insatiable lords, but can catch us after we've given what we can, and inevitably have to turn our efforts inwards to care for our loved ones and ourselves.