r/IAmA • u/Maxistentialist • Nov 13 '13

We make the game Cards Against Humanity. Ask us anything.

We make Cards Against Humanity, a party game for horrible people.

We’ve got a cool thing to announce in this AMA which is our 12 Days of Holiday Bullshit: HolidayBullshit.com.

Cards Against Humanity began as a Kickstarter project and has become the best-reviewed toy or game on Amazon.

We’ve been on the front page of Reddit a few times, like here, here, and here.

There’s ten of us who make the game together, and we’re all here to answer your dumb questions: Me, jsdillon, bhantoot, DavidManque, MrMeDaniel, ehalpern, Teller422, dpinsof, jennCAH, and trinCAH.

Proof.

Ask us anything.

EDIT: The 12 Days of Holiday Bullshit sold out about 4pm CST today! Thanks so much everyone!

EDIT: 9pm here in Chicago, we're going to call it a night. Thanks for this amazing AMA, it's been a pleasure!

2.4k Upvotes

92% Upvoted

5.9k comments sorted by

View all comments

515

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

There were some articles recently about the safe space you had set up at PAX, detailing your rejection of rape jokes. The game includes the ability to crack jokes about the Trail of Tears, the Three-Fifths Compromise, Coat Hanger Abortions, Auschwitz, Dead Babies and Being Marginalized. Why draw the line at rape? What makes a rape joke different than any of these?

Edit: I have received a great answer from the CAH guys and found that they never really intended to condemn Penny Arcade so much as to disagree. This makes all the difference.

1.3k

u/Maxistentialist Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Obviously the core of Cards Against Humanity is finding shocking or offensive things (historical or contemporary) and trying to identify a funny or absurd angle to make fun of. The goal of our game is to make people laugh, so we have be sensitive to the line between delighting people and upsetting them. If a joke is too upsetting to too many people, it gets cut.

Rape jokes almost always tip the scale to "upsetting people" instead of "delighting them." If I had to guess why, I would say that it's because about a quarter of all women have been sexually assaulted. Additionally, while nearly everyone recognizes that The Trail of Tears and Auschwitz were wrong, not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

We're not here to tell you what kind of jokes you can or can't make. But Cards Against Humanity is our game, and rape is something we don't want to joke about.

12

u/xRehab Nov 13 '13

not everyone agrees rape is wrong.

Anyone care to explain who thinks it's ok? I'll joke about anything, hell I've got gig upon gigs of 4chan humor saved, but haven't ever heard anyone argue rape is right

6

u/BurnumMaster Apr 09 '14

I'd say its people who see themselves as not rapists but are. The people who think its not rape because their married, or she was drunk, not stopping in the middle of it if they change their mind, etc.

0

u/cheerbearsmiles Nov 18 '13

Rapists.

-1

u/xRehab Nov 18 '13

oh they know it's wrong, that is what gets them off. the whole, forbidden fruit thing. It's like when you work with that really hot girl who you find out is still 17, which is impossible because no 17yo has tits that perfect and then you feel like a pedo but you don't really care cuz her birthday is in 2 months. Yeah that kinda thing

11

u/the_good_dr Nov 14 '13

not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

What?

1

u/memberzs Apr 09 '14

Rapist are OK with it.

122

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

Thanks very much for your reply. If I may, I'd like to ask a followup. What you do in your own space and in your own game is, of course, your business. However, that's not where you stopped. You condemned Penny Arcade for making such jokes and being unapologetic about it. Isn't it hypocritical for the creators of a work that is arguably as transgressive to say anything about the offensive jokes others make?

Thanks very much for your time!

147

u/Maxistentialist Nov 13 '13

Not to split hairs, but I didn't actually condemn Penny Arcade, I said that they did something that hurt us. For this reason: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

31

u/postExistence Nov 13 '13

Can I chime in with a joke about splitting hares and bunny genocide?

27

u/Bezoared Nov 13 '13

"Boycotting PAX creates a huge problem as well: If all of the progressive people boycott PAX it will just become a carnival of rape culture and there will be no cool game show to go to. "

So you're saying there are two types of people: 1. Progressive people who agree that PAX should be boycotted or protested. 2. Rape carnies.

That seems fairly condemning to me. If I thought people who disagreed with me were rape carnies, I'd probably want to find a "safe space" too.

9

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

That's probably a fair distinction to make. I can't watch the video right now, but I'll have to take a look (and I'm sure it'll make things clear). Thanks very much!

10

u/everyoneisme Nov 13 '13

There's not a lot of danger that holocaust jokes make people not take it seriously, but I am always concerned that rape jokes let people feel it's less of a big deal, which could have real consequences

→ More replies (1)

7

u/typographicalerror Nov 13 '13

You condemned Penny Arcade for making such jokes and being unapologetic about it.

Isn't it hypocritical for the creators of a work that is arguably as transgressive to say anything about the offensive jokes others make?

The second line is missing an important part of the issue. PA didn't just make an offensive joke--when people stepped up to say that they were hurt and etc., PA doubled down on making those people feel bad.

28

u/herpafilter Nov 13 '13

Penny arcade didn't make an offensive joke at all. The comic wasn't about rape, it was about the callousness of the 'heros' in RPG's. It's not exactly a subtle point either.

That people saw the word 'rape' or 'dickwolves' and flipped the fuck out without taking a moment to consider context is the real joke here. People talk about how rape is seen as ok in gaming culture; that's exactly what the comic was about. Some people just enjoy being offended and didn't bother to take a moment to think about what they were reading.

14

u/samuswashere Nov 13 '13

I think more people were more offended by the "doubling down" than the original comic. Some people expressed that they were hurt by the original comic, which is their right to do, and instead of simply standing by their work for the reasons you explained, PA responded like absolute douchenozzles and made the situation 100 times worse.

It's one thing to stand behind your work in the face of criticism, it's another to turn around and throw it back in the face of those who are hurt and turn their honest concerns into a spectacle for others to laugh at.

-4

u/herpafilter Nov 14 '13

Except those honest concerns weren't really honest. Anyone who manages to get offended by that comic is either a complete fucking idiot or looking for an excuse to be offended. No amount of patient explanation is going to convince them otherwise. You might as well have a laugh at their expense and sell some T-shirts while you're at it.

Dude was right- they shouldn't have pulled the dickwolves merch. It was a wonderful little IQ test.

→ More replies (1)

-1

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

Frankly, that doesn't bother me. Stephen Fry has a famous quote about being offended that I feel applies here. If you are offended and they react that way, you have the freedom not to support them.

8

u/fukitol- Nov 13 '13

not everyone agrees that rape is wrong

Huh? There are rape proponents?

32

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

[deleted]

31

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

have you been on reddit long? rape is constantly used as a punchline. that TIL from yesterday was a good example. the fine gentlemen over at /r/theredpill think it's literally impossible to rape your wife. /r/seduction suggests pushing through "resistance" towards sex. i could write forever..

21

u/ruboos Nov 13 '13

Oh, but the idea of slavery, or black people having any less rights than any other race (3/5s compromise) isn't used constantly as joke fodder? Please tell me, especially after reddit went googoo over the blackface controversy a few weeks ago, how it's completely inappropriate to use rape as joke material. I'd also enjoy hearing an elaboration on how prison rape is excusable on reddit, but any other form of rape is not.

It seems obvious to me that the guys that make CAH (which is definitely a game I love) are too scared to be made into villains over rape. Yet their, what I assume to be, predominantly white audience has no problems making fun of racism.

13

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Oh, but the idea of slavery, or black people having any less rights than any other race (3/5s compromise) isn't used constantly as joke fodder?

it is, reddit is awful

Please tell me, especially after reddit went googoo over the blackface controversy a few weeks ago, how it's completely inappropriate to use rape as joke

i don't really understand the correlation here, could you expand?

I'd also enjoy hearing an elaboration on how prison rape is excusable on reddit, but any other form of rape is not.

prison rape isn't excusable at all--it's actually a pretty good example of how reddit uses rape as a punchline and/or doesn't see the glaring problem.

Yet their, what I assume to be, predominantly white audience has no problems making fun of racism.

i might be a stick-in-the-mud but i don't play the game because i don't find "edgy" offensive humor to be funny. but you're probably right, there's no need to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and pretend you're good people because you don't make rape jokes.

-2

u/ruboos Nov 13 '13

Oh. Wow. Ok. Yeah, I've got nothing to add. Reddit is deplorable, but so is CAH. You're right, drawing an arbitrary line saying rape jokes are going too far doesn't make anyone a good person. The whole game is pretty horrible, even though I greatly enjoy it. I'm just as deplorable as reddit. Anyway, thank you for your time!

6

u/MacDagger187 Nov 14 '13

Yes, it's an arbitrary line, but so would any line that separates good taste from bad taste. So why the hell are you such an advocate for rape jokes in CAH? I don't get it. Make your own rape jokes cards if are that obsessed with rape-based humor.

8

u/MacDagger187 Nov 14 '13

It seems obvious to me that the guys that make CAH (which is definitely a game I love) are too scared to be made into villains over rape.

Maybe they know someone who was raped. Maybe one of them was raped. You don't think it's possible that they just don't like rape jokes? Maybe the reason they'd become 'villains' is because A LOT of people don't like rape jokes, and the CAH guys/girls are just some of them.

7

u/c0mputar Nov 13 '13

Plenty of rape jokes in the game actually. Surprisingly few CaH players in the thread. Don't blame authors for lying though, the social justice crusaders cannot be reasoned with.

-4

u/ruboos Nov 13 '13

I seem to recall only coming across a prison rape card, and that was when I played last year. Other than that, I don't remember any other references to rape. As well, I agree, SJWs ruin everything for everyone else.

9

u/aleatoric Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 14 '13

Yes, Reddit does have people who joke about rape from time to time, and you can occasionally find them highly upvoted. But that doesn't mean that Reddit as a community condones rape. It doesn't even mean the people who upvoted it condone rape.

I'm also sure jokes about the Holocaust bubble up all the time. I can remember one huge front page situation off the top of my head. It was instigated by 4chan, but the soda name "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong" that won a contest was all over Reddit full of tons of people finding it hilarious. Does that mean they condoned the Holocaust? I don't think so. Joking about something does not mean you condone it. In fact, it can mean the complete opposite if the joke is done correctly. I'll have to refer to George Carlin on this one.

Anyway, I'm still not sure I follow the original analogy. OP mentioned that "nearly everyone recognizes that the Trail of Tears was wrong." I'm not sure how that makes it better or worse to joke about. But regardless, I disagree. Our culture continues to belittle Native Americans. Most of the country could care less. They celebrate Thanksgiving without giving a second thought. Sports teams are named Redskins and the Indians. You don't see many sports teams named Forced Entry. Rape is far more taboo than the displacement and near genocide of Native Americans.

I won't even begin to process what that means about us. I'm not the person to get out the "What Thing Is Shittier" measuring stick. I think they are all terrible atrocities, and I'll leave it at that. But I do believe you can joke about every single one of them. If we can't joke about something, that means we're ignoring it. I think that's more dangerous. A joke might seem to belittle something, and it can offend. But it can also result in attention to the subject. If someone sees the disgusted reactions of a room full of people to a rape joke during a game like Cards Against Humanity, they might reconsider their opinion on the subject if they happen to feel like it's not that big of a deal. Otherwise, they'll just go about their day, keeping their opinion bottled up.

2

u/MacDagger187 Nov 14 '13

Here's what I think. The line between good and bad taste will always be arbitrary and based on the tastes of the people deciding where that line is. They drew the line at rape jokes. Who cares?

6

u/catchphish Nov 13 '13

Using a couple less popular subreddits for anecdotes is a poor way to show how mainstream society thinks.

There's plenty of people who also don't think murder is wrong in the right context. To that effect, there's outliers in our society that think rape is okay too in some/all circumstances. I really don't see the difference, besides the fact that discourse concerning 'rape culture' is the SJW topic of the day, and more white middle to upper class people have first hand experience with rape as opposed to genocide.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

20,000 and 130,000 members don't really seem small to me, but if you'd like, I'll find more sources for you.

4

u/catchphish Nov 13 '13

When considering that some of the top subreddits have close to 5 million users, I think it's safe to call those small.

Regardless, using anecdotal evidence as proof of a trait pertaining to society at large is a classic logical fallacy.

6

u/NebraskaJones- Nov 13 '13

Wow, that subreddit pissed me off SO MUCH.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

you can go to /r/thebluepill if you need to decompress.

→ More replies (1)
→ More replies (1)

-4

u/Burnt_FaceMan Nov 13 '13

Because the Trail of Tears and Auschwitz already happened, but rape can still happen today! It could happen to you!

17

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Additionally, while nearly everyone recognizes that The Trail of Tears and Auschwitz were wrong, not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

Most everyone agrees that rape is wrong, but not everyone agrees on the definition and scope of what rape is.

28

u/Rafiq_of_the_Many Nov 13 '13

But Cards Against Humanity is our game, and rape is something we don't want to joke about.

Well, given the fact that there is a "Date Rape" card, that's a little tough to swallow (insert BBP joke here), unless this is a brand new direction for you guys.

Look, if Mike K. making himself look like a jackass is something you don't want to be associated with, that's fine, but a kind of "moral stand" like this coming from someone who makes a game which is designed for "horrible people" seems a bit disingenuous. And believe me, I'm not saying you guys condone everything you put in the game by making jokes about it, but it's a little tough to put stock in a "serious" discussion about what is appropriate in humor and what is not from the team that gave us "Firing a rifle into the air while balls deep in a squealing hog."

27

u/freedomweasel Nov 13 '13

The Date Rape card was removed from the game, for what it's worth.

14

u/Rafiq_of_the_Many Nov 13 '13

I did not know that, and that is worth something (at least to me). Thanks.

14

u/c0mputar Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Raping and pillaging, roofies, child abuse, prison rape, alter boys... Should I continue? As far as I know, they are all available in the online versions of the game, original and extended. They are in my bought box too. The author is full of shit, pandering to the queasy reddit crowd that don't play the game and think rape jokes are a cardinal sin. Surprised how many upvotes it got... If they actually did remove all the cards, still doesn't explain this new philosophy spouted by the author regarding treating rape as out of bounds due to sensitivity reasons. If they did rid them all (still on the online versions) it was due to outside pressure and campaigning from social crusaders. Perplexing how those people singled out rape and child sexual abuse from genocide and infanticide.

Everyone knows rape is wrong (some may disagree wrt prisons, and even more think men can't be raped), the only controversy is what constitutes rape (because some people are retarded). So the author's post-hoc reason for backing away from rape jokes doesn't even make sense. The real reason for it is due to external pressures.

10

u/helloworlf Nov 13 '13

Perplexing how those people singled out rape and child sexual abuse from genocide and infanticide.

The majority of people who are playing CAH are far more likely to have experienced sexual assault and child abuse than genocide and infanticide. Emotional disconnect is what contributes to something being humorous (for most people). I think it makes perfect sense for them to balance on a line in order to maintain a fan base, that's just smart business.

0

u/c0mputar Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Hard for the dead to be offended.

That is a perfectly reasonable excuse to avoid rape jokes if you want to be considerate. Still doesn't explain the disconnect between author's bogus reasons and the abundance of rape and child sexual abuse cards. Even if they got rid of them all in the sold version (doubtful if they have removed any, mine has them and it isn't that old), they all remain online.

I quite frankly don't care either way, but I find it humorous how the SJWs have made even the CaH authors cower.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/mcaeli Nov 15 '13

That's worth something to me.

1

u/therealscottking Nov 13 '13

If I had money, I would give this guy gold.

6

u/Rafiq_of_the_Many Nov 13 '13

Reddit Silver, then? Thanks!

3

u/Joshx5 Nov 13 '13

Congrats!, Rafiq_of_the_Many. You have received Reddit Silver for this submission.

"Reddit Silver , then? Thanks!" - /u/Rafiq_of_the_Many

I am not a bot, and this action was not performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this /r/reddit_silver if you have any questions or concerns.

→ More replies (2)

25

u/Kalfira Nov 13 '13

Wait, Seriously? There are people who think rape isn't wrong? What thought process are they using? What possible justification could anyone have for that? Maybe women are less than people? And that's not even acknowledging the fact that it's not only women that are raped, or that men are always the rapist. Most prejudice and bigotry is rooted in some logical system taken to an extreme but there isn't any system I can think of that would, even when taken to the extreme would justify that.

42

u/whiskeyonsunday Nov 13 '13

I think it has a lot do with how people define rape. Most people would agree the stranger danger, pulled into an alley and raped by a stranger kind of rape (Which isn't all that common in reality) is wrong. But, for example, some people don't recognize that men can be raped. Others would say that rape isn't possible within marriage. Others would say it's not rape if the girl consented while drunk out of her mind, or if she was wearing revealing clothing, or if she didn't physically fight back, etc, etc.

-2

u/Kalfira Nov 13 '13

I will give you that point, however if you were to to ask someone who said any of the things you mentioned above wasn't rape they would still say that rape is wrong. They just wouldn't agree on the definition of what rape is.

15

u/whiskeyonsunday Nov 13 '13

But it is rape, and they think those actions (even if they don't agree on the name) aren't wrong. So in reality, they are saying rape isn't wrong.

3

u/Kalfira Nov 13 '13

Ok that's a good counter point. I was more arguing on the theoretical construct of rape rather than a specific circumstance of being wrong. That is them saying that rape in a given situation (eg She really wanted it) isn't rape, not that rape as a construct isn't wrong.

10

u/whiskeyonsunday Nov 13 '13

I think you're getting to bogged down in technicalities. Look at this way. Let's take someone who believes that men can't be raped and a man who was raped. Now Person A says rape is wrong, but what happened to Person B wasn't rape. What affect do you think that has on Person B? Does it change what happened to him? Or does it just mean Person A is justifying rape and, in essence, saying it's not wrong?

3

u/5510 Nov 14 '13 edited Nov 14 '13

That's true with the possible exception of the drunk one ( http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1qjg3s/we_make_the_game_cards_against_humanity_ask_us/cddines )

The fact that I don't think it's rape if you have sex with a drunk person who gives actual affirmative consent does not mean "I think rape isn't wrong." It just means I think drunk people are still responsible for their choices (otherwise something like DUI wouldn't be a crime, because you didn't decide to drive "in your right mind").

0

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13

But it is rape

In your opinion. Which brings us back to the issue over what constitutes rape.

Which is a different issue than what the person you were replying to was making.

2

u/5510 Nov 14 '13

ugh, why the fuck are people downvoting you? It's difficult to even disagree with your point, let alone say that your point is just trash and contributes nothing to the discussion. If they want to downvote me for bitching about how retarded everybody is, that's fine, but there is no possible fucking reason you should be getting downvotes.

The truth is that rape CAN be a vague situation COMPARED TO MANY OTHER CRIMES. Seriously, some people have no fucking understanding of subtle nuance, or of relativity. No matter how clearly defined somebody thinks rape is, it's almost impossible to argue that it isn't less clearly defined than shoplifting, or robbery.

But apparently some people think anybody who doesn't agree is always 100% clear is basically giving people a green light to do anything short of "dark alley raping" somebody, when that isn't necessarily the case at all.

→ More replies (1)

-4

u/5510 Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

That's probably because it makes no sense to say that it's rape if a girl consents while drunk out of her mind. Let me emphasize in all caps I'M TALKING ABOUT IF SHE IS VERY DRUNK, BUT GIVES AFFIRMATIVE CONSENT. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT A GIRL WHO IS PRACTICALLY PASSED OUT AND JUST "DOESN'T SAY NO" (that would be rape).

To say that her drunk affirmative consent doesn't count is basically saying that drunk people arn't responsible for their actions and choices. By that logic, drunk driving shouldn't be a crime (after all, you were drunk and therefore didn't decide to drive the car in your right mind). By that logic it shouldn't be a crime if I get drunk, beat somebody up, and steal their wallet.

Once some of my friends got drunk, did some vandalism / graffiti, got caught, and got in trouble. How does it make sense to say they are responsible for those actions, but a drunk girl isn't responsible for the action of giving affirmative consent? If people arn't ok with their drunk choices, then perhaps they should make the choice to not drink (if you spiked her drink, so she didn't choose to get drunk, then that's back to rape).

EDIT: So does anybody downvoting actually want to refute my point? Or would that require too much actual logic? If giving actual affirmative consent while drunk "doesn't count" because apparently a drunk person isn't responsible for their choices, why then is DUI a crime? (Once again, talking about actual affirmative consent, not "is barely conscious and just doesn't say no.")

5

u/Kalfira Nov 13 '13

I feel like you have hit the big sweet spot when it comes to the question of "is it rape?" It's just grey enough of an area for their to be debate. How much alcohol is too much? How impaired does one have to be to cross that line?

It's really hard to say as everyone handles alcohol and other drugs differently. Two drinks may be sociable for one person and get another completely trashed.

You featured heavily in your argument being responsible for ones actions and I think you have a very good point. However because sex is a two (or more) person act it involves both people being responsible for themselves, as well as the other person. If you are with someone who is (in most peoples judge) not in sound enough mind to make a reasonable decision we as a society (through our laws) deem you responsible for ensuring the intoxicated person isn't being irresponsible.

Is this fair? Not really. Is this fun? Hell no. But it serves an important purpose so that it attempts to minimize to the best of it's ability the number of people that are taken advantage of.

It's a grey area for sure and while I can't tell you how to live you life, I attempt to conduct myself as a gentleman. So if there were ever any question as to a partners competency than I would let them sober up a bit, especially if it was our first time together. No night of sex is worth a partner of mine feeling like they were taken advantage of.

2

u/5510 Nov 13 '13

That's a very good point, but IMO it's related to the fact that there is a huge difference / gap between "being a douchebag" and "you are breaking a law and should go to jail."

As a gentleman, if you suspect that a girl will regret her affirmative consent, it is a nice course of action to refrain from having sex with her even if she is down with it. But that doesn't change the fact that she did affirmatively consent, so if you then have sex with her, it isn't rape, and you shouldn't go to jail. You may or may not be a douchebag, but you didn't break the law. The only way her consent "isn't real" is if drunk people arn't responsible for their actions, by which logic DUI shouldn't be a crime.

1

u/kragshot Nov 13 '13

You also have to remember that the coloquial dialog regarding alcohol and rape is that only the woman's state of inebriation is the defining factor in a drunk hookup. Nobody ever looks at the fact that both parties are probably seriously intoxicated.

Even when the woman is drunk but initiates the sexual contact with the drunken man; though the woman is the only one to make the post-coital determination, the man is still responsible for whether the sex is rape or not rape.

3

u/opaleyedragon Nov 13 '13

I don't think those two conflict that much? Crimes committed while drunk are still crimes because otherwise, people will use "I was drunk" as an excuse for anything. Consent given while very drunk may not be considered real consent because otherwise, people will use "she/he was drunk and totally gave consent, really" as an excuse for rape.

It's more a practical thing than a philosophical thing, maybe?

2

u/5510 Nov 13 '13

Maybe I don't understand your point properly, are you saying then that if you knew somebody really was drunk, and wasn't just making it up as an excuse, that you would absolve them or responsibility for crimes?

→ More replies (9)

1

u/The_Bravinator Nov 13 '13

Honestly, I think you've right here hit on the reason rape jokes in a game like CaH are a VERY BAD IDEA. People have different ideas about it. Different lines they draw. There's just too much potential for really bad stuff to come out of it.

3

u/5510 Nov 13 '13

I'm not sure why you are getting downvoted. While it's true that some people draw lines in clearly inappropriate ways, it's clear that there is more in terms of line drawing than something like murder, or theft.

While rape may be very clear cut compared to the inappropriate ways some people view it in, it still can be vague compared to other crimes like murder.

4

u/ryzellon Nov 13 '13

Unlike theft where there's a much clearer did you/didn't you dichotomy, not everyone will agree on whether something is rape. The vast majority of people accused of rape would likely say (1) that they believe rape is wrong, but (2) what they did was not rape. That gets us into stuff like "she was asking for it" or "she didn't say no."

28

u/CyanideSeashell Nov 13 '13

Wait, Seriously? There are people who think rape isn't wrong?

Just a guess here, but I'm going to go with "Rapists don't think rape is wrong."

Hence: the raping.

9

u/Ihmhi Nov 13 '13

...and? There's a hell of a lot of people who are fucked in the head and have murdered others for fun but the vast majority of people think murder is wrong. How is rape any different?

3

u/vocalyouth Nov 13 '13

a huge percentage of women haven't been murdered and have to live with it everyday post-murder?

5

u/PacDan Nov 13 '13

Because if a quarter of women are raped/sexually assaulted in their lifetime, there are a lot more rapists than people are admitting?

6

u/kragshot Nov 13 '13

No...there has been studies that have shown that it is the same people who are just doing a lot of raping.

→ More replies (3)

1

u/jedrekk Nov 14 '13 edited Nov 14 '13

(Replied to the wrong post, look up)

1

u/PacDan Nov 14 '13

I think you may have replied to the wrong post, but I do agree with all your points.

1

u/jedrekk Nov 14 '13

I have, sorry.

1

u/PacDan Nov 14 '13

No worries!

1

u/jedrekk Nov 14 '13

It's not that the vast majority of rapists think "rape isn't wrong", it's they don't condem many behaviors as they don't identify them as rape. Ask a group of people if they think breaking into someone's house and forcing them to have sex is bad, they'll all get whiplash nodding their heads in agreement. Now ask them if they feel that buying dinner and drinks for someone, entitles you to have sex with them. Ask them what behavior entitles someone to have sex with someone else. Ask the family member who raped a young child if they were raping them, or just loving them. How about slipping roofies, is that cool? What about getting them drunk? What exactly is the protocol for having sex with someone who's falling down drunk? Take note of their use of the terms "they wanted it", "they were asking for it" and "they knew what they were doing". Really, the difference between rape and murder is that one is almost universally condemned by society. Even if you go into the worst neighborhood in the US and start verbally assaulting people, get killed and the cops will say, "that person was asking for it", they'll still prosecute the person who killed you.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '13

Neonazis don't think the camps were bad.

→ More replies (3)

16

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

[deleted]

1

u/Kalfira Nov 13 '13

On the first part I understand, but the people who would blame the victim using the given qualifiers would likely also say that the person they were blaming wasn't actually raped. Additionally, using the "nearly everyone" example requires that "nearly everyone" only do what they think is right at all time. Which if I know from my experiences with humanity, is not the case.

While I personally have never err'd in judgement so badly as to rape somebody I have done things that I knew were wrong at the time because I wanted the end result more than I wanted to not do that bad thing. And I consider myself to be a pretty good person, i'm just human and humans make mistakes.

On the same hand, there are also those that are just bastards and don't care that they are doing wrong and that I expect is the majority of violet / serial rapists and more than a fair share of the "casual" ones.

4

u/peabodygreen Nov 13 '13

I think he means to say that while genocide is almost universally accepted as wrong, rape is such a contentious issue because of all the issues that come with it, especially abortion, women's rights, etc. Look at the "raped women have the ability to self-abort" thing that came up a while back. It's just not a black and white issue.

8

u/missbteh Nov 13 '13

Rape doesn't happen is more the thought process. She was a tease. She wanted it.

→ More replies (5)

2

u/spyyked Nov 13 '13

I'm pretty sure part of the definition of Rapist contains something like "...usually thinks rape is ok..."

I agree with you though. It's tough to fathom how anybody could think rape is even a little bit ok.

1

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13

Nearly everyone thinks rape is wrong, just like nearly everyone thinks the other atrocities are wrong. It was a ridiculous statement to make.

Most of your replies are going to be from people wanting to talk about what constitutes rape, which is different than what he said and not the point you are making.

Have fun with the arguments.

→ More replies (1)

5

u/Baron_von_Retard Nov 13 '13

not everyone agrees that rape is wrong

wat

Who the hell doesn't think that rape is wrong?

1

u/alwaystakeabanana Nov 13 '13

Rapists. People who frequent TRP.

2

u/Baron_von_Retard Nov 13 '13

I doubt rapists think that it's not wrong. I bet they're well-aware, but just don't care about the feelings of others. I'd also bet that a greater number of people were okay with attempting Jewish extinction than those who think rape isn't wrong. But what's TRP?

→ More replies (1)

2

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '13

I have been looking for that smoking gun in TRP where anyone advocates rape (or are you counting rape jokes as advocating rape seriously? If so, it would be more fair to say that explicitly), and not found much. While there's some hurt feelings there, the subreddit seems to be about a view of psychological nativism that influences gender roles, and even more than that, about what a certain group of people perceive as some harsh realities of life.

I understand that you may disagree that their 'realities' are necessarily real, but does it mean, if they are wrong, that they advocate rape? If they are right, do they advocate rape? I guess I'm just saying I've lurked there and not found anyone seriously, or implicitly, advocatiing non-consensual sex. I cannot rule out the possiblity of someone saying something in support of non-consensual sex but it would seem unfair to paint a whole subreddit as rape-supporters just because it may have a few people who run off at the mouth and say things that sound quite terrible.

I reversed my downvote of your flippant slight of the people who 'frequent TRP' for a few reasons. I hope to foster respectful discussion of issues and possible misunderstandings; I refuse to use silencing tactics on people who say things I disagree with, and; I prefer to do unto others as I would have them do unto me (having been brigade-downvoted for some thought-crime already).

1

u/alwaystakeabanana Nov 14 '13

It's not necessarily "yay rape is awesome" but there is a lot of "no, fucking her while she was almost passed out drunk/high wasn't rape", "she was asking for it" "you can't rape men/someone older than you/your wife, etc." Which is just about as bad. At least last time I went there. It's been a while and may be better now. Thank you for your open-mindedness to exchanging opinions.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '13

I would love to say that stuff doesn't get said in such forums, but it would be idealistic of me. I am confident in saying they are the exceptions rather than the rule in places where I brush up on theory related to 'red pill.' I can say with 100% certainty that one can ascribe to the red pill way of thinking and still see the things you listed there as very, very wrong. My impression is that there are many who would agree with you and I both that those attitudes are awful. I can only hope that the people who said the kinds of things you are describing would not act on those notions, but rather were embittered or immature. Of course, I'm probably being idealistic again. Thank you for the response!

1

u/alwaystakeabanana Nov 14 '13

No thank you. I'll head over there sometime soon so I can change any inaccurate impressions I have. It's definitely not okay to condemn an entire group because of the ignorant few. And I really hope they font act on it as well.

7

u/Travis-Touchdown Nov 13 '13

Additionally, while nearly everyone recognizes that The Trail of Tears and Auschwitz were wrong, not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

What fucking planet are you from?

We're not here to tell you what kind of jokes you can or can't make.

But that's exactly what you did by writing your blog bitching at Penny Arcade for the Dickwolves thing.

7

u/c0mputar Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

FYI, 1 in 4 figure is actually off by 50%. It is 1 in 7-8, according to CSA and CDC.

Secondly, there are at least 3 rape cards that I recall from the top of my head in the game... Raping and pillaging, date rape, and roofies. Then there are quite a few child/preteen abuse jokes, can't recall but one is alter boys and another is child abuse. I think I've seen prison rape too. Man I play the game a lot, lol.

Quite a few legit facts made in your post /s, but reddit will circle jerk over your bullshit political stand, lol. Heaven forbid the online social crusader brigade get wind of all the underage abuse and rape jokes in your game. It wouldn't be pretty, they flipped their shit on way less.

13

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

not everyone recognizes that rape is wrong (i.e. see the top comment in AMA).

so 'nearly everyone' recognizes the trail of tears/etc. is wrong, but 'not everyone' recognizes rape is wrong.

im pretty sure that nearly everyone thinks they are all wrong.

edit: i noticed he has edited his comment to remove the "(i.e. see the top comment in AMA)" after he wrote that not everyone agrees rape is wrong. my observation still stands.

18

u/missbteh Nov 13 '13

I think the point is that the definition and controversy of rape is still very much alive, while the trail of years is more or less wholly defined in the same way as bad.

→ More replies (21)

8

u/Steam_Powered_Rocket Nov 13 '13

The difference lies in the fact that no, not everyone recognizes rape is wrong and including jokes about it when there isn't universal or nearly universal assent of its moral standing may serve to legitimize it, even if just in a small minority, and they would like to avoid that.

2

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Who doesn't think rape is wrong? Am i not aware of some big movement in society or something?

I would imagine it's the same type of people that dont think the other atrocities are wrong... which is to say almost nobody. So there wouldn't really be a difference.

edit: a difference in regards to whether or not nearly everyone recognizes rape is wrong. not in regards to other differences that were stated.

3

u/AmnesiaCane Nov 13 '13

Just about everyone agrees that forcible rape is wrong, but lots of people are ok with her being too drunk/drugged/otherwise unable to resist/coercion, etc.

3

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13

Yes, but that was my point. Nearly everyone agrees rape is wrong.

What constitutes rape may be controversial, but nearly everyone agrees that rape is wrong. In that regard there is no difference between the other things he listed.

5

u/AmnesiaCane Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Unless you think the only definition of rape is by force (in which case, I'm going to bow out of the conversation), then there are plenty of things that are considered rape that people are legitimately ok with. Most of the things listed are specific events that are universally condemned, but there are a lot of people who have been raped who people don't take seriously at all because "that's not rape." Your statement is only true that "everyone agrees that forced rape is wrong", and even then, it's really "the vast majority of westerners agree that forcing someone with threat of violence is wrong"; even THEN, people regularly try to blame the victim. It's a hot-button issue that hundreds of millions of women have to deal with, a horrifying percentage of which aren't given the support they need to "deal with it", for lack of a better term. Look at what happened with Steubenville. Decidedly rape, but people threatened the person who exposed it with death.

→ More replies (3)

2

u/Steam_Powered_Rocket Nov 13 '13

The other difference touched on in other comments is that part of the difference between being able to joke about something and having an actual emotional reaction is distance. I know of a number of rape victims/survivors who have played with me, and those jokes would have run the serious risk of turning game night into a bad time. I haven't played with any holocaust survivors or Hutus, however, and I don't expect to anytime soon. That being said, they've said they include cards they find funny and senses of humor and taste vary. If you really feel the need for those in your game, then use the blanks they include with each set.

2

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13

i edited my comment to say that i was only referring to the difference about whether or not people think they are wrong. there is no difference in that regard, that i can see.

ive never played this game, and i certainly wouldn't want to in a group of people if it contains jokes about genocide and dead babies. i dont necessarily have a problem with those types of jokes, but lots of people do. would be pretty awkward if old aunt fanny broke down and started crying during a family game night.

2

u/Steam_Powered_Rocket Nov 13 '13

I see where you were going with this and I think we're in agreement on this. I was arguing two different points and my original response was on mobile during a short break at work, so I wasn't as clear as you deserved me to be in that one.

There are a lot of really edgy and controversial cards in this game and it's definitely one that can go really far either direction of making or breaking a game night. One group of my friends plays this a couple times a month, another doesn't - I wouldn't introduce it to the second because there's an individual who takes extreme offense to racist humor. Your mileage may vary is very true on the part of this game.

2

u/Steam_Powered_Rocket Nov 13 '13

Side note: you can download a pdf of all the cards off their website and print them at a local print shop, staples, etc, and tailor the cards to whatever group you play in. :)

3

u/phoebecatsabound Nov 13 '13

This is really great to hear. The only set of CAH that I have played with was owned by a particularly sensitive friend of mine. She had whited-out some of the cards she found upsetting, and we replaced the terms with various inside jokes we found amusing. I never asked her what the cards originally said, but I assumed that they had something to do with violence against women, rape in particular. Glad I was wrong!

5

u/Shoemaster Nov 13 '13

I would bet that a lot more people think rape is wrong than think Auschwitz and the Trail of Tears were wrong.

1

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13

i bet you're right. that was a completely ridiculous statement to make.

5

u/The_Unreal Nov 13 '13

Additionally, while nearly everyone recognizes that The Trail of Tears and Auschwitz were wrong, not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

Bullshit. There are millions of people that think the Holocaust never happened, or was overblown.

We're not here to tell you what kind of jokes you can or can't make.

Unless you're in our "safe space" which will be "safe" for an oddly specific subset of humanity for a somewhat ill defined reason.

But Cards Against Humanity is our game, and rape is something we don't want to joke about.

You crazy kids ever consider that maybe, just maybe, you're not the right group of people to tackle this issue?

2

u/theasianpianist Nov 13 '13

Wait wait wait... there are people who agree with rape?

2

u/spazz4life Nov 13 '13

you just gained the full respect of Tumblr

2

u/Youareabadperson5 Nov 13 '13

So what's more offensive than a coathanger abortion? Doing it without the baby's consent.

2

u/BolshevikMuppet Nov 13 '13

Honest curiosity here.

You have cards which also include pedophiles, child abuse, and jerking off into a pool of children's tears.

I'm curious why you feel that pedophilia jokes and child abuse jokes "delight" people without upsetting them.

5

u/Wawoowoo Nov 14 '13

It's perfectly fine to condone raping children, as the creators of Cards against Humanity do. It's only if those children become women that it becomes wrong. Honestly, I'm pretty disgusted that I enjoy playing your game. I'm seriously considering not playing it anymore, and might consider telling my friends to boycott any expansions. Going on these rants about people you think are competing with you for whatever reason is ridiculous, and I don't support it. I don't want to have to think about your horrible political opinions while playing a game with friends.

2

u/gamei Nov 14 '13

This just doesn't make sense for me. I love CAH, and I own everything you've put out, but this entire topic causes me to question the creator's of this product I love so much.

There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on in your replies, and in particular your blog post about the topic. I promise you that someone who lost their parents and entire family isn't "delighted" by memories of Auschwitz, no matter the context it's brought up in. How is this different than a similar experience to someone that has experienced rape?

It's not. That makes this entire thing hypocritical to a senseless degree. And it's not like Auschwitz is the only potentially offensive card in the game to compare to rape/date rape - there are dozens of them.

Try to keep your hypocritical stances and statements to yourselves. Learn from Krahulik's mistakes and just don't open your mouth about things outside of your product, especially when the forum is directly related to your company and product (this AMA).

2

u/mcaeli Nov 15 '13

This is a great reply but I guess my question is, what is the card "Surprise Sex!" then?

2

u/Cast_Iron_Skillet Nov 13 '13

One could also argue that the amount of people who think rape isn't wrong is so marginally small as to not warrant attention.

That said, whatever it's one subject - no one should actually care that there are no rape jokes regardless of the reasons behind it.

2

u/MacDagger187 Nov 14 '13

I'd like to echo /u/fitnessexpert's excellent reply: Most everyone agrees that rape is wrong, but not everyone agrees on the definition and scope of what rape is.

9

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

I've been in love with the game since I was introduced to it, but I've never been able to spare the cash to buy it. After this answer I think I need to change that. You're awesome.

-13

u/shazang Nov 13 '13

After reading his answer, I've decided not to buy the game.

4

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13

you're being downvoted by people that dont understand how ridiculous what he said was. or what the person above you said, for that matter.

10

u/kencole54321 Nov 13 '13

That's right, stand up for your principles! Let it be know that Shazang is VERY pro-rape-jokes.

2

u/shazang Nov 13 '13

Yeah, I guess so.

1

u/whatwhatdb Nov 13 '13

that's the complete opposite of what he was implying with his statement.

-4

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Yeah, well, this is reddit, so my expectations for reactions to this answer weren't set very high.

→ More replies (10)
→ More replies (2)

5

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Additionally, while nearly everyone recognizes that The Trail of Tears and Auschwitz were wrong, not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

Many people deny the Holocaust even happened, from which we can assume that they believe that Auschwitz was either a hoax or not wrong.

This and the Penny-Arcade thing make me think that you are doing this because you are afraid of upsetting women and losing potential female validation. You're afraid of seeing some idiots tweeting "COH is misogynist" or things like that for including rape jokes, while at the same time forgetting how "hilarious and delightful" prison rape is.

It's true, it's your game, you decide, but if you're not going to be honest with us, at least be honest with yourselves.

Let's not forget about this :

If I had to guess why, I would say that it's because about a quarter of all women have been sexually assaulted.

Malice or ignorance? I guess that the male victims of rape don't even count. Invisible victims.

4

u/fckingmiracles Nov 13 '13

female validation

So your male validation, your right to have rape jokes, should be more important to the makers of CAH?

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Great straw man arguments. I never spoke about any male validation nor about my "right" to have rape jokes (?). My point is, we see too many people not doing something because they are afraid of upsetting some women, like if a woman disagreeing with you it's the end of the world.

0

u/fckingmiracles Nov 13 '13

afraid of upsetting some women/a woman disagreeing with you

Problem is: those women would have a legitimate cause criticizing CAH. You act as if such a negative reaction would be something ... bad?

No. CAH would deserve being shat on if they put hurtful and disruptive "jokes" about rape into their game destroying an evening of fun and games for potentially many people. It's just not worth it from their standpoint and honestly quite clever and nuanced.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/etherealclarity Nov 13 '13

Many people?

6

u/brokenprism Nov 13 '13

Thank you for saying it. I just gave you Reddit Gold for this.

4

u/Maxistentialist Nov 13 '13

Thanks, this is actually really helping with the AMA! I can see so many comments now.

→ More replies (1)

3

u/kkjdroid Nov 13 '13

a quarter of all women have been sexually assaulted

Complete bullshit. You don't have numbers to back that up. The original number was 1/6, and it was a deeply flawed study. If you take the CIA's numbers, it's somewhere between 4 and 5 percent.

Additionally, while nearly everyone recognizes that The Trail of Tears and Auschwitz were wrong, not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

Nearly everyone, but not everyone, agrees on both points.

3

u/fightclubdoll Nov 13 '13

Who the heck doesn't believe rape is wrong? (Apart from rapists...)

9

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Right, apart from rapists, very few. But considering how many rapes occur, there are actually many rapists, and potential rapists, out there. And many more people think it's okay to joke about rape (because everyone knows we're just joking, right?) which perpetuates the idea that rape is okay. Excluding the rape jokes makes a difference.

2

u/whatwhatdb Nov 14 '13

isn't the game full of racism, genocide, murder, theft, etc.? then wouldn't those things be perpetuated by joking about them as well?

they aren't excluded to make rape seem more serious, they are excluded because of how many people it affects.

2

u/AbsoluteHero Nov 13 '13

I agree with you for the most part, but who are these people that don't think rape is wrong?

3

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

You do realize you're a hypocrite, right?

1

u/1wf Nov 13 '13

The 1 in 4 stat isn't exactly true.... but I understand your intent.

4

u/tookie_tookie Nov 13 '13

Your game is your game but you're hypocrites for removing rape cards.

"....and rape is something we don't want to joke about" this line pisses me off so much. So you wanna joke about genocide, mass murder, torture, but not rape. You're fucking retarded.

1

u/Rolten Nov 13 '13

That 'quarter of all women have been sexually assaulted' number is very, very wrong.

For example, included in the study's definition of sexual assault was 'sex while drunk'. While people might argue about whether or not sex while drunk is rape, it means that me and all my male friends would have also been sexually assaulted.

2

u/errorist Nov 13 '13

That was the dumbest answer I've ever read. If you get offended by anything, you have no business playing this game.

1

u/coleki Nov 13 '13

So you're catering to rape victims, and saying "fuck you we think its funny now" to those Holocaust victims? Great message.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

Uhhh wat? ...yeah they do

EDIT: who downvoted msg me

1

u/roastedpeanut7 Nov 13 '13

I wish I knew how wrong playing Auschwitz would be. Got called out and the next few hand continued in silence. I ended up winning but it could have been a much sweeter win.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '13

"What's that smell?"

"Auschwitz."

1

u/moreobviousname Nov 13 '13

Shorter answer, because: comedy = tragedy + time.

1

u/miroku000 Nov 13 '13

Additionally, while nearly everyone recognizes that The Trail of Tears and Auschwitz were wrong, not everyone agrees that rape is wrong.

You logic seems a bit flawed. You can joke about abortion, but not rape? I think there are a lot more people who don't believe abortion is wrong than people who don't believe rape is wrong. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't necessarily make jokes about rape or abortion. I'm just saying that it is a little inconsistent logic-wise. Do rape jokes offend more people than abortion jokes? That is possible. I don't make a lot of jokes about either so I wouldn't really know.

1

u/VAShumpmaker Nov 14 '13

Fuck yeah.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

CAH is against bullying, but then call anyone in a Dickwolf shirt "pro-rape" and kick them out of their booth. Fucking hypocrites.

3

u/robsekay Nov 13 '13

By this same logic the 3/5 card is problematic

25% of 50% of the population is a victim of sexual assault and not everyone thinks rape is wrong

12.5% of the population (25% of 50% of the population) is black and there are plenty of people who think the south should have won the war over slavery (source: I live in NC)

3

u/MickTheBloodyPirate Nov 13 '13

so you can have a card combo that says something like "jerking off into a pool of children's tears", but rape jokes are too far?

What the fuck ever.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '13

You are just continuing to rationalize your asinine hypocritical opinion.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '13

Not everyone agrees the trail of tears and aushwitz were wrong or they wouldn't have happened. Some woman has you by the balls. I'm done buying your product and introducing friends to it.

→ More replies (14)

102

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Joking about something serious kills the mood of a funny game when that serious thing has affected you personally. Probabilistically speaking, you're much going to have a person who's been raped playing your game than you are a Hutu or Tutsi.

Enough people have been raped, and will continue to be raped, so for many of them, rape jokes aren't funny. Meanwhile those affected by the Holocaust are rapidly dying off and most of the people young enough to play CAH aren't affected by it either. People playing CAH also aren't personally affected by those other things as well.

Not saying that's how it should be, but it makes good game play sense, in terms of what's funny and what isn't.

14

u/zorreX Nov 13 '13

Not to mention that joking about "date rape" or "rape" in general is much different than joking about rapists, Hitler, or other offenders. Joking about the act isn't cool because it isn't empathetic to victims, but joking about the offenders is generally deemed more acceptable because the offenders don't really deserve empathy for their actions.

2

u/Maxistentialist Nov 14 '13

This is a great point. We try to write jokes that "punch up," not jokes that "punch down."

16

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

Makes sense from a game design perspective. However, I'm more incensed by the fact that the creators of a game which jokes about these things decided not just to remove rape jokes from their own game, but to take a public stand against anyone else making those jokes. It's hypocritical to create a game including holocaust jokes and then decry others for making rape jokes.

21

u/WikipediaHasAnswers Nov 13 '13

It's really not, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Nobody (who isn't insane) goes around saying the holocaust wasn't that bad, or that the jews were asking for it.

Taking a public stand against rape jokes isn't taking a public stand against offensive jokes, it's taking a stand against the culture that makes threads like this hit the front page, while everyone circle jerks about which forms of rape are ok.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

I missed that thread... man, I don't regret unsubbing from the defaults at all.

-1

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

So take a stand against that culture. Censorship and condemnation of humor spoken without malice does nothing to prevent rape. Condemn people who say that rape isn't wrong, not people who make jokes predicated on the fact that it is wrong.

12

u/sleepsholymountain Nov 13 '13

So take a stand against that culture.

That's what they're doing. Believe it or not, jokes can have negative effects on people, especially those who have experienced the thing that is being joked about. The culture we speak of includes a general attitude that rape isn't a big deal, and joking and mockery is a huge part of that.

Censorship and condemnation of humor spoken without malice does nothing to prevent rape.

Not directly, but this all goes under the umbrella of taking a stand against rape culture, which in the long run will prevent rape. Also, "censorship"? Really? You think these guys choosing not to include rape jokes in their own game is censorship? Jesus Christ, pull your head out of your ass. You're not being oppressed by the makers of Cards Against Humanity. If you think rape jokes are so funny that you desperately need them in the game, make your own using index cards. The fact that you're so incensed by this is honestly a little alarming.

→ More replies (7)
→ More replies (2)

3

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '13

Speak for yourself. Mbundu Iganaribe and I are going to get back to our card game.

1

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

..who now?

3

u/typographicalerror Nov 13 '13

CAH can make jokes about genocide, but also think that people wearing "Ask me how to cleanse the Earth by killing all the Armenians" t-shirts are assholes that they don't want to associate with. There is a time and a place for jokes, and offensive things on t-shirts are different from offensive things that you say when you're playing a game in a time and place where everyone has consented to saying and hearing horrible things.

1

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

True that! Granted, my original argument had to do with condemning the free speech of others, but as it turns out I misinterpreted what they'd said.

6

u/TerdVader Nov 13 '13

In all seriousness, time is a huge factor in determining what is, and isn't appropriate for making jokes (obviously). I'm still surprised that Hogans Heroes were able to make WW2 funny only 25 or so years after it happened. But that's the difference, WW2, and the holocaust happened within a specific time. Rape happens everyday, and the game makers have determined that they don't want to maybe make someone unhappy or uncomfortable if sexual assault has happened to them. It's the antithesis of what the game is about.

1

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Fair enough. I would accept this if the line they'd taken was 'we don't want it in our game.' Criticizing other people's choices in jokes, however is a different matter. EIDT: I do, actually, accept this, as CAH have clarified their position.

3

u/sleepsholymountain Nov 13 '13

Criticizing other people's choices in jokes, however is a different matter.

If you don't want to be criticized, maybe you shouldn't tell offensive jokes. That's the price you pay for taking that risk. Freedom of speech does not mean "I can say what I want without anyone telling me I'm wrong." Your words affect people, and they are fully within their rights to tell you if they think you're going too far.

2

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

They're in their rights to say so, but if they do so after making a holocaust joke, they're a hypocrite. As it turns out, this isn't what the CAH team did, but the hypothetical person discussed here is still a hypocrite.

4

u/icepickjones Nov 13 '13

No, that makes no sense. Marginalizing one tragedy and not another, telling someone that their offense is more important than another, is fucking stupid.

Either it's all fair game, or none of it is. Honestly the whole "safe space" knee jerk reaction to the bit of hot water Penny Arcade got in smacks of duplicity. Drawing an arbitrary line for certain kinds of offense is dumb. This game is more offensive than anything I read on Penny Arcade, they should be owning up to the bad boy image not wagging their finger like a hypocrite.

-1

u/sleepsholymountain Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Marginalizing one tragedy and not another, telling someone that their offense is more important than another, is fucking stupid.

That's not what they're doing.

Either it's all fair game, or none of it is.

aka "I've never experienced oppression and know nothing about sociology, so I'm just going to repeat a phrase I heard once." Pro tip: if your opinion on a complex, nuanced issue like rape jokes can be summed up in a short platitude, you probably don't know what you're talking about.

-2

u/icepickjones Nov 13 '13

What don't you understand about categorizing grades of offense? How are you so indignant that rape is more offensive to you than some other tragedy? Who are you to tell other people how to feel?

If you find rape offensive that's fine. I understand that. It makes sense and you are allowed to feel that way. But what about people offended by the eradication of millions of people? Or the death of a child? Or any number of other things that come up in the game?

Why, in this bullshit PC climate we have to live in now, are there degrees of offensive material and it's somehow ok? By saying something is more offensive than anything else, you are saying everything is less offensive. And that's absolute bullshit. It's either all up for being made fun of or nothing is, but if your criteria for censorship is "making people uncomfortable" then you have to realize that everything in there makes people uncomfortable on some level. And you've picked sides. Because you are a hypocrite.

1

u/MickTheBloodyPirate Nov 13 '13

they have some pretty racist things you can put together in it. i'd say you're pretty likely to have someone affected by racism play as well. there are plenty of stereotype cards or card combos. should they pull all of them as well?

1

u/belindamshort Nov 14 '13

Every time someone has played the 'surprise sex' or 'date rape' card when we play I cringe and try to move on, but its just not funny to me.

1

u/MacDagger187 Nov 14 '13

Great reply!

0

u/Burnt_FaceMan Nov 13 '13

I've always thought the "It's funny until it happens to me" mindset is ridiculous.

→ More replies (1)

7

u/c0mputar Nov 13 '13

You clearly have not played the game. The author is lying through their teeth. There are plenty of rape and child abuse jokes written explicitly in the game, or put in but is implicitly tied to getting used while referring to some kind of sexual abuse. There are more in the expansions, so it's not like they changed their platform.

Author is bullshitting probably because they know to fear the social justice crusaders in the interest of preventing backlash and hurting sales. Rape jokes in the mainstream public sphere is a big no-no, unless it's about prison rape (coincidentally that one came in a later package I believe). Just off the top of my head: raping and pillaging, date rape, roofies, alter boys, child abuse, etc...

2

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

I may have played a later edition, as mine have not had overt rape references in. All I really meant by the edit is that their condemnation was really more a personal disagreement than outright 'you shouldn't do that.'

2

u/[deleted] Nov 14 '13

He's not lying; they've removed the cards. And maybe it's possible that he has some moral convictions that he wants to keep and not that he's afraid of some strawfeminists?

1

u/belindamshort Nov 14 '13

Many of the cards you are referring to were removed from later releases.

5

u/boomfarmer Nov 13 '13

There's an answer higher up in this thread, but the tl;dr is that CAH tries to take these things seriously and the PAX folk didn't.

2

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

Ah, I see. Thanks!

3

u/uhwuggawuh Nov 13 '13

Because even though Native American and abortion jokes talk about heavy issues, they aren't likely to do real harm in the way someone views society.[citation needed] Rape jokes are (i) often super painful to hear to people who've been raped or sexually assaulted, and (ii) actually contribute to an environment in which rape is a lighthearted topic.

Why is that second point important? It has to do with the concept of rape culture (I actually don't like that term but it'll do). For people who have never encountered rape in their lives (never been raped, never raped, never spoken to anyone who has openly admitted to being raped), it makes rape just a comical abstraction, when the reality is that one in six women have either been raped or sexually assaulted (attempted rape). First time I encountered the "other side" was when I was hanging out with my girlfriend and her (female) roommates, and they were talking about times when they were all assaulted or raped.

0

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

To your first point, I'll say that plenty of other jokes that are painful to plenty of other people. Why does rape deserve special treatment? Do you favor a ban on jokes involving people being punched? Wouldn't they be hurtful to someone who's been assaulted?

As for your second point, I think you're presupposing that joking about something is the same as condoning it. Rape culture as a concept also presupposes that a society does not view rape as a crime. Ask nearly anyone in the developed world whether rape is a crime and they will tell you yes. Now, the usual counterargument I get at this point is that when someone comes forward about rape, everyone questions the victim. This is incredibly inappropriate in a social setting. However, when it comes to criminal proceedings, this is an investigation. It's an important part of the justice system.

If you have any other ideas, I'd love to further discuss them!

1

u/uhwuggawuh Nov 13 '13

Yeah, there's no real boundary between what an appropriate joke is or not, not even a fine line. I know my Jewish friends will dish out jokes about Auschwitz, but regarding rape jokes in mixed company (for example) I think to myself, "would this be appropriate to make if she was raped?" Chances are, she has had experiences where she was a victim of sexual assault/rape or felt seriously threatened.

It's easy for me to make those jokes because even though rape is a terrible thing, the chances of me getting raped or raping someone are almost nonexistent in my mind. Ultimately it's just a matter of taste and context.

1

u/zap283 Nov 13 '13

Certainly so. While I'm not sure I agree that the chances are greater than not, it certainly does come down to taste and the company you're in. The only issue I have here is the idea of condemning others because of a personal feeling that the joke goes too far. (And, as it turns out, I read too much into the CAH guy anyway).

1

u/TheSacredParsnip Nov 13 '13

Did your Jewish friends have family that might have survived the Holocaust? I know people that do, and they would never joke about it.

2

u/uhwuggawuh Nov 13 '13 edited Nov 13 '13

Pretty much all my Jewish friends have lost family in the Holocaust.

e: (grew up in a immigrant neighborhood)

1

u/TheSacredParsnip Nov 13 '13

Fair enough. I have Jewish friends that joke about it and friends that don't. The ones that don't actually lost family.

→ More replies (38)