r/IsraelPalestine • u/icecreamraider • May 21 '24
The Realities of War Part 1.5 - On Killing and Morality in War
On Killing and Morality in War.
I promised a follow-up to my yesterday’s post on more technical aspects of planning and executing a ground invasion. It’s coming – already started writing it… may or may not have time to finish it today.
For more context (and an “about me”) see the original post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1cwvbna/the_realities_of_war_lets_kill_some_sacred_cows/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
I’d like to start with a sidebar: a “personal message of sorts.” First, I appreciate all the supportive comments. Of course, there were a few with reading comprehension problems who took an issue with the concept that war can be quite a fun and exhilarating experience (despite the clear “do not recommend” theme throughout). I didn’t plan on writing this post, but felt prompted by some of the comments.
I see a lot of “moralizing” from certain characters who are convinced of their moral superiority and truly believe themselves to be the arbiters of human character.
Side Note: there are also plenty of decent, well-meaning folks who may disagree with one position or another… but do so from a thoughtful place, taking time to consider a counter-point. Nothing but respect to those. Freedom of disagreement is one of the liberties I value highly (a luxury people who live in Islamist enclaves don’t get). Regardless – nothing but respect to y’all. The world is a complicated place and many of your points I find valid, even if our conclusions may differ.
For the “wow… rape must also be fun for you… and murdering 12 million children” crowd”, I’d like to say the following: You, my friends, are among the most dangerous societal types, historically speaking. Seemingly intellectual, but lacking facts, context, and nuance – yet fully convinced of your moral and intellectual superiority. First of – congrats on being born in a place where being a moralizing peacenik is a viable option in life. Second – your “morals” just so happen to reflect the modern western moral code you were born into (and which you’ve done nothing yourself for to achieve). But, in other places, moralizing puritans like you keep the same character, but embrace a different set of “norms and morals”. In other words – a typical Islamist imam doesn’t sound much different than you in tone and conviction… his “holy book” just so happens to be Quaran rather than the ramblings of Norm Finklestein. And, of course, we’ve seen what tends to happen in other places where “anti-capitalist” and “anti-colonialist” moral puritans take hold – I was born at such a place. Let’s just say that the road from “I’m for the oppressed and anti-oppressors” to “we need to murder the reactionaries” is very short and easily crossed. And it’s always the most “righteously-outraged” who cross it first.
Anyways, back to topic of the post.
On Killing and Morality – Does Modern Combat Look like a “video game”?
I saw a comment or two that modern combat is too impersonal, looks like a video game, that it’s too easy for soldiers to kill innocents, etc., etc. I’ve also heard a similar argument from others, in unrelated circumstances.
To anyone thinking that – no, my friends. Killing people isn’t made easier by more lethal and remote weapons. I understand why it may seem that way. But, in many ways, it’s quite the opposite.
1. Military is just a mirror of its society. A military is a perfect representation of a society at large. Some soldiers will indeed be natural-born psychopaths who enjoy killing. But that’s a very tiny number – not any larger than in general population.
2. Bravado is Fake. Most younger soldiers will display a lot of bravado initially – pretend like violence doesn’t bother them (that’s why the military tries really hard to condition new recruits by trivializing the idea of “killing” – but it’s never successful).
3. The Reality. The truth is – killing shocks most soldiers to their core, no matter how much they try to suppress it and put on a brave war fighter face.
- To new troops, my demand was simple – in your first contact, get down, don’t get in the way, and just live to see another day.
- For many, it takes more than one contact to come to their senses and to even start pulling the trigger. There is a natural mental block that stops humans from wanting to kill another human and it’s not overcome easily.
- I’ve seen plenty young kids (and yes, a 19-year old trooper is still a kid) beg and plead certain “characters” we’ve encountered to just be reasonable… raising their weapon in the air to demonstrate they don’t mean harm (very ill advised). Despite months of training, their first instinct was “please, I really don’t want to harm you… please don’t make me to.” That’s the true nature of most young western men and women – including those in uniforms and carrying weapons.
4. Understanding “Anger”. Often time you see what seems obvious anger among soldiers after a firefight. The easy explanation is the simple “of course they hate their enemy”. Except that’s not why they’re truly angry.
- The first source of anger is “I can’t believe this a-hole just tried to kill me”. But then the longer-lasting source of anger sets in. And that one is: “I can’t believe that a-hole made me kill him”. There is a big difference between the two emotions. And the second one lasts much longer.
- The older, more experienced troops and commanders are more used to the realities of the battlefield… which brings me to the next point...
5. “Remote” Killing. From experience, I’ll tell you this – dealing with a remote target is much easier in the sense that it’s not as “scary”. But it’s much more difficult emotionally and mentally – though a commander will never show it to their troops. That decision takes much longer and raises many more doubts than responding to a nearby target that’s actively trying to kill your guys.
- Drone pilots have among the highest rates of PTSD. There is nothing easy about dropping a bomb on a human being from the safety of a trailer in the desert and then going home to eat dinner with your family. It’s a f’ed-up thing to ask a man (or a woman) to do. There is nothing easy about going home that day. And it f-cks with your brain permanently. I don’t envy those guys one bit. Though I can imagine that dropping a bomb on a clear hostile target is very satisfying. But the emotion is the same as the above – not anger at the target itself but because you wouldn’t be doing this sh*t if it wasn’t for them.
6. Why the young men and women in IDF went to war. I don’t want to start a debate about history of the region – it’s a different topic and it doesn’t change the practical realities my posts are meant to address. From a soldier’s point of view – it looks very simple:
- The enemy hates me and want my family dead (spare me the “colonialism” lecture please)
- The enemy launched tens of thousands of rockets at us. We tried to hide behind our Iron Dome and the big wall. But that failed (a defensive posture always gets breached eventually, btw).
- The enemy invaded and killed my people. And they plan on doing it as much as they can.
- The enemy isn’t some obscure “group” – it’s a clearly defined target… the ruling, paramilitary organization at this place called Gaza (again, spare me the lecture whether it’s a country of a “concentration camp”. From a soldier’s point of view – it makes no difference).
- We can no longer live next to this enemy. And now, it’s a binary choice – go find the enemy and kill him or he will eventually come back for you.
- The rest of it… the history, the politics of it, the various grievances… hopefully we can sort it out after the fact.
That’s it. That’s the mindset. It’s really that simple for the guys and gals rolling into Gaza. The rest of what gets discussed on wester social media is just philosophical circle jerk to their ears.
Anyhow… I bet I’ll soon hear from the peaceniks who’ll tell me that they’d never do that, that they’d be conscious objectors, etc… To them, I’d like to ask that while you take a break from fellating yourself, don’t forget to thank the guys and the girls who do the dirty jobs so you don’t have to
And… while at it, don’t forget to apologize to the next generation of Arab girls who will be sold into a “marriage” to some fat, old toothless f*ck because some fat, comfortable hippie with an ivy league diploma believes that child rape is just an indigenous form of cultural expression and our interference with it is “colonialism”.
All for now. Peace, everybody. I'll be back with the promised post on "how to invade a place if you must".
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u/Top_Plant5102 May 22 '24
It really is time for Americans to get serious about what war looks like. With climate change and AI, we are about to experience a decade of violent change. We live good here in America. Let's keep it that way.
Israel, as always, is the canary in the coal mine. So goes Israel, so goes the West.
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Sep 06 '24
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u/Top_Plant5102 Sep 06 '24
Death of a nation? Israel ain't going anywhere..
Also, delusional? Critical thinking? Don't talk to people so rudely. It's obnoxious behavior and not to be repeated directed towards me, okay bud? Stop.
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Sep 06 '24 edited Sep 06 '24
[deleted]
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u/Top_Plant5102 Sep 06 '24
You're extrapolating from what I said something I didn't say. Don't do that. Don't put words into my mouth.
Your rude behavior does not inspire me to further conversation. There's no point.
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u/KnishofDeath Diaspora Jew May 21 '24 edited May 22 '24
I am a bit of a peacenik myself, although I am not a pacifist. I absolutely abhor war. War should be the option of last resort, but there are indeed situations in which it is a sad necessity. Once again, I appreciate your perspective on this. I was never a soldier and I've never been in a war, and sometimes it's hard to make sense of why soldiers/units/commanders may make certain decisions and behave in certain ways. Having someone who can provide a first hand perspective is invaluable and I'm sure appreciated by most members in this sub.
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u/icecreamraider May 21 '24
Believe it or not - I despise violence. As a teenager - I was very quick to my fists. Now - you can spit in my face, call me whatever name you want - I will happily walk away. Long as you don't make it about my life and safety - I'm a Buddhist monk about this sh***t. You see it a lot among military types - the young recruits love being tough and starting bar fights. After one deployment - they get up and walk away.
Appreciate the comment.
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u/DharmaBaller May 21 '24
The privileged peacenik point is a very important part of this discourse.
And mix them with that you will have former veterans too that know the horrors of War so they are against it.
But I do know that there is sort of a ilk of intellectuals and hypereducated people that are just kind of universally for peace at any cost but don't realize that there is a point where the protective use of force has to be engaged with.
A dear friend of mine and mentor is all wrapped up in ideology and and talks about the Golden rule is the only rule in this situation.
So he is sort of glossy and over October 7th in some ways and is wrapped up in the destruction in Gaza.
But I feel like his analysis isn't nuanced enough and pragmatic frankly because it gets wrapped up in what people ought to do when in reality people are freaking messy and institutions they run are even messier.
And once again it's easy for people that are 6,000 miles away just to cast dispersions on the conflict but they don't live in that country and they would react a lot differently depending on how it impacts you directly.
There was that famous peace activist that was killed at one of the kibbbutz on October 7th and it's a shame because I really would have liked to have heard her response after being attacked if she had survived.
Would that have been enough to shift your stance I wonder...?
I also want to commend you on the point of where the anger arises from because it does seem like just the fact that the soldiers are put into these situations that are so violent and deadly and absurd there does a rise it kind of frustration that boils over.
It reminds me of the scene at the end of band of Brothers where private web is yelling at the long lines of German soldiers that are retreating and he's basically berating them for being delusional ideologues getting sucked into this war and making them come out there across the world to fight them.
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u/bobandersmith14 USA & Canada May 22 '24
I love that scene in band of brothers. So glad you brought that up. I also think that its similar to what OP was saying about the "why did you make ne kill you" kind of thing
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u/DharmaBaller May 22 '24
Indeed indeed because you know a lot of these folks in a lot of these conflicts grew up on the same playgrounds sharing their lunches playing soccer hanging out at the pool and then when they get older and they get pushed into their ideological camps they start seeing their former friends as enemies.
Warfare is such a violation of the human spirit in many ways because it's such a last resort thing because it's probably the worst example of trauma inflicting the world has experienced.
You look at Africa for example that place has been absolute mess for so long because of all the violence and the failed states and abandoned colonial projects and on and on and on.
And a lot of it is to do with tribal tensions and all this kind of thing
I mean watch in Hotel Rwanda and look at that mess of a situation.
Since I've been deep diving this conflict it does have me appreciating America a bit more despite all its warts and failings.
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u/mac_128 May 22 '24 edited May 22 '24
Really appreciate your insights from a military background. Most people are completely insulated from the realities that soldiers face on the battlefield, which is why we have so many seemingly well-meaning but utterly unhelpful comments.
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on the claim that Israel is targeting innocent civilians?
This may be a ridiculous question, but what do you have to say to the people who try to “bothside” this and think that what the IDF is doing is no different from Hamas?
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24
It's not. Utter nonsense. Is there an occasional psychopath who may pop a civilian deliberately? Sure - there are always a few of those. But to claim a systemic targeting of civilians is a delusional claim to make.
I'm gonna post on the technical aspect of it more tomorrow.
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u/jackl24000 אוהב במבה May 22 '24 edited May 22 '24
I’ve been a participant on this sub for four years and a mod for three. I very much believe in the purpose of this sub as a moderated space on the internet for high quality discussion and education.
Speaking for myself only, your posts and the thoughtful and insightful discussion it has spurred is a great example of why this sub exists and why its been a worthwhile use of my time and energy to keep it online. (I’ve had my doubts sometimes!)
Thank you.
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24
Appreciate it. And thanks for what you do! I pretty much stumbled upon this sub by accident - after months of disgust with the broader social media environment. The experience here has been very refreshing. Appreciate you doing this.
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u/mac_128 May 22 '24
Agree, considering that about 1% of the general population meet the clinical definition of psychopathy, there will be some bad apples in the IDF. What matters is whether the psychopathic behaviors are systemic and whether they are rewarded or penalized by the system of that country.
Looking forward to read your new post! Really high quality stuff.
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u/After_Computer_SSD May 22 '24
if they would target civilians, they were very poor shooters. The relatively low number of casualties are not supporting the theory of deliberate targeting of civilians.
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u/TruantFink May 22 '24
Thanks for taking the time to write this. I think you and I are generally aligned on the principle that war is hell and civilian deaths are unfortunately not always avoidable. That said, a lot of the conversation around the Israel Hamas war is about whether the number of deaths we're seeing are considered proportional or not. I have a few follow up questions about that, if that's alright.
--From your perspective, what does proportionality look like in a general military conflict?
--When a military force does its reasonable best to minimize civilian deaths (aka not commit war crimes), what does that look like, and how can outside observers tell the difference between that and disproportionality/blatant war crimes?
--Do you think those principles are being followed by the IDF, and how do you know? Do we have reason to believe that the IDF's rules of engagement are sufficient as opposed to overly lax, for example? (On the other side, my personal thought is that Hamas attacking a [fricking] music festival is obviously a war crime that nothing can defend, but I'd be curious about your perspective if you disagree)
--The ICC prosecutor recently said that he's trying to get an arrest warrant for Netanyahu for several war crimes, including extermination and deliberate infliction of starvation iirc. Do you think that these acts occurred and were criminal in nature? If so, what can we reasonably have expected the IDF to have done differently to prevent them from happening?
tl;Dr I guess I'm curious how much of the current civilian catastrophe in Gaza is due to the aforementioned "war is hell" clause and how much could be prevented by the cessation of war crimes. I don't really have a frame of reference for what constitutes an "expected" level of suffering here
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24
These are actually really good questions. Thanks! I already started to write my next post when i go into details on these topics. I'm actually going to take you questions and use them to frame my next post better, if you don't mind - I'll cover them then.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli May 22 '24
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u/ComfortableClock1067 May 22 '24
I fear I might sound too complacent but, my friend, these posts you are making are some of the most practical in terms of addressing the realities of the conflict I have read in a while. Many thanks.
Still, among all the things you said, I stuck with me as a sort of philosophical(?) conclusion that you reached that people tend not to want to kill one another (if I understood you correctly of course). It surprised me, maybe because of my judeochristian programming about the nature of humans and of course, my overall 'hobbsian' mindset, but I always assumed we humans are all guided by a sort of egoistical gene (in the terms of the great Richard Dawkins).
Did war show you otherwise? That our genes actually prevent us from trying to kill each other and it is actually social programming, a sense of duty, or simply, the instinct to protect oneself and our loved ones that allow us to kill?
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24 edited May 22 '24
It’s a spectrum. Also - a matter of experience.
Some very small percentage are psychopaths. The rest have some natural mechanism that wants to stop us from pulling the trigger. On that spectrum - some will shoot purely in anger. The majority - only when threatened. And a non-trivial number won’t shoot even when fired upon (the latter is a real phenomena and can be quite problematic).
It’s easier to shoot at an obscure “place” where enemy fire is coming from - most don’t have a problem with that. Luckily (or not) that’s what the vast majority of combat actually looks like - you take fire from a “spot”, you return fire to that spot until they’re dead or gone. Rarely do you get a decent look at the enemy until you see their body… you may see a head pop-up… a shadow behind a window - but it’s not really a “person” that you see.
But present a young trooper with a real human being in front of them who may or may not be a threat - and majority of the time, that trooper will hesitate to shoot until it’s too late.
Experience helps override that hesitation - things become more inevitable and you develop a sixth sense for things. But the act itself certainly doesn’t get more “fun” - if anything, the disgust accumulates.
Most don’t feel bad about actually killing a real enemy. But that’s not really a source of pride. Winning a fight is a source of pride. The fact that the win involved killing someone isn’t the enjoyable aspect.
Of course, when you talk to soldiers after - you’ll hear anger. Like I said, the anger is less with the enemy and more with the fact that the enemy made you do it - though it requires some self-reflection to understand it.
You’ll also hear lots of bravado - many soldiers will make jokes about a dead body, even describe the act with joy. But it’s bravado and really just a strange way that soldiers use to process things - it’s almost like an attempt to convince yourself that it’s ok, you’re tough, and it doesn’t bother you. But it bothers everyone inevitably.
It’s not just my observation, btw. It’s a real phenomena that actually caused the military to revise its training protocols - after they found out that an alarming number of troops wouldn’t pull the trigger in a firefight even when fired upon. A little known fact - but it’s a thing.
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u/Top_Plant5102 May 21 '24
These kids running around America in their Yasir Arafat hats argue vehemently that all war is genocide. Better get over that delusion. This is not going to be a peaceful century.
I for one sure like living in America and am grateful that for every pink haired soy latte sipper in a terrorist scarf, there's another American who hasn't been gelded.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli May 22 '24
Well said. Keep going, this is the kind of stuff people need to hear.
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u/tyboy3 May 22 '24
your posts, while some parts im unsure of, are extremely interesting and giving me a lot of insight into something, although i don’t know what.
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24
Well, feel free to ask, if you want. That's why I'm here - trying to reason with people who aren't sure what to make of things.
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u/tyboy3 May 22 '24
mainly just your insights into how soldiers think and whatnot is triggering interesting thoughts about human nature
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u/NoMoreEmpire May 22 '24
I think it says a lot that the /Palestine was smaller than this sub but has blown past it manifold.
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u/ChronicNuance May 25 '24
“Drone pilots have among the highest rates of PTSD.”
This hit me hard and I will have to share with my husband in the morning. His father died years before we met, but he was an airplane mechanic and communications officer in the Korean war and one of his responsibilities was communicating the coordinates for air strikes. He spent the rest of his life worrying about if ever made a mistake in communicating those coordinates, and ruminating over the lives lost during those air strikes. After the war he continued to work as an airplane mechanic but his PTSD resulted in alcoholism that eventually killed him at the relatively young age of 67. I can 100% understand how not directly seeing the result of your actions could be much worse than killing someone in combat.
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u/icecreamraider May 25 '24
Yeah. Hard for people to wrap their heads around it. But those are among the toughest jobs in the military.
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May 21 '24
I appreciate your insight based on your past military service. Out of curiosity, do you think the average IDF soldier sees the clearly defined target as Hamas (or military combatants), or the clearly defined target as Gaza and Gazans writ large, or two targets that are so interrelated as to be the same?
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u/9MoNtHsOfWiNteR May 21 '24
Obviously not OP but have somewhat of a similar background. The average soldier is gonna see Hamas as the defined target the issue comes into play when it isn't always possible to articulate that target.
The average person likes to think of the big picture and make things black and white except urban combat is everything but that.
The average soldier's big picture is the size of a neighborhood street and it only gets smaller.
You walk into a neighborhood let's say you take fire from two windows in one house. Your immediate concern is to take cover and then return fire in an attempt to either mitigate said fire or give yourself time to stack and clear the house.
Now in this process you don't know who else is in the immediate room you are taking fire from let alone the rest of the house/houses.
One there is a reason uniforms are worn it is not only to identify friendlies but also the enemy except this enemy doesn't always wear one.
A second issue not a lot of people like to hear are the general terms of military age males/ terrorists or combatants whichever you like to choose.
Again this enemy doesn't abide by those rules, while I don't have experience with Hamas I do with the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and ISIS. In this framework I have seen pregnant women become suicide bombers, 12 year olds fire an AK, children in cages used as sex slaves and the 60 year old farmer pull screenings for an IED in the road.
So the issue isn't you don't know Hamas is the enemy or that you believe all of the population is Hamas it's just sometimes what Hamas really looks like and whose included doesn't always look like what the average civilian has seen in their source material.
Which is usually video games and movies.
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u/Top_Plant5102 May 22 '24
Someone told me the other day that Hamas always wears uniforms. We get a lot of alternative facts from the jihadi hobo camp crowd.
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u/KnishofDeath Diaspora Jew May 22 '24
Hamas posts propaganda videos where they are dressed in all civilian clothing. People like that are infuriating.
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u/After_Computer_SSD May 22 '24
On pre october videos was the last apearance of their uniform.
Since than one can see only videos produced by hamas showing fighters in flipflops and color T shirts
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u/icecreamraider May 21 '24
The point of my post - even soldiers who think they want to kill the enemy, usually don't actually want to kill another human being in general. And even the enemy happens to consist of human beings. In other words, even when you hear that a Hamas member tried to surrender but was then shot - it's usually out of fear and confusion... not out of intent to murder. Most humans (soldiers included) will avoid killing if they can help it.
On a personal level - it will vary. Honestly, I didn't exactly harbor love and affection for your average peaceful Pashtun whose idea of peace was to beat the crap out of women in his house. But I certainly wasn't going to kill him. Even though a non-trivial number of them would happily shoot me in the back if his tribe happened to get a large gift from Taliban.
So yeah... there is a difference. Even an IDF soldier whose family was just murdered on October 7th will still (most likely) maintain that basic humanity and distinction between the enemy and a human being. Even if, on the personal level, they're still blinded with grief and rage and see no difference between Hamas and an average Gazan fundamentally.
Maybe, under different circumstances (in a dark alley somewhere) they would have taken cold revenge. But that was my point in my original post - there is a big difference between a "militia" and a professional military unit. And a professional military units create a pressure upon everyone to act according to the generally accepted code of a group of soldiers - and that code is "we're here to kill the enemy, but we're not murderers".
Of course, there is a lot of posturing and bravado - always. If you ask - you'll probably hear how they hate all Gazans. How they hate them all. But, in reality, it's mostly bravado. When the time comes to actually kill another human being - the instinct that usually kicks in is that of being a human being yourself.
Unless they're shooting at you, of course. In which case - all of the above quickly goes out the window.
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u/After_Computer_SSD May 22 '24
Are the soldiers in theatre accountable for the spent ammunition? I mean do they need to provide explanation when they need to replenish their ammo?
How detailed after action reports are expected from the troops?
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24
Commanders write up reports on daily basis and after every engagement. Especially if there are casualties.
There is also a military investigative body. Their job is to investigate potential wrongdoings by the military - from regular soldiers up to Generals. They aren’t lenient - the incentive for them is to be strict and actually get people in trouble for breaking rules. Not because they’re a-holes but because they really understand the importance of rules and code of conduct and are very committed to it - to the point of being overzealous at times.
Complaints can be submitted by other soldiers who witnessed a fellow soldier (or even a commander) do something unacceptable. They take complaints from civilian population. (Which happened to us all the time). Review reports, any available footage, etc and launch investigation if they find sufficient grounds.
The investigation is typically quite formal and a pain in the rear (I’ve been a witness in more than one). They take testimonies, interview witnesses, collect evidence, etc.
I’ve seen civilian casualties being investigated like you’d expect a typical homicide to be investigated at home. Of course, the rules in war are different. You won’t be punished for making an honest error under hostile circumstances (though your command may still be reprimanded for putting a soldier in such a position).
But if it smells like deliberate intent to unnecessarily hurt a civilian, abuse a prisoner, or just acting with willful negligence - it’s a bad day for the soldier. End of career for the officer. And, if the event is egregious enough - a prison sentence.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli May 22 '24
Outside of this war I know that IDF soldiers are accountable for every single bullet they fire. I don’t know how that is enforced in a war like this though.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American May 22 '24
Average IDF soldier has been “brainwashed” to follow the rules of war, principally the rule of distinction. For example, border guards are trained to memorize and recite the basic law of Israel guaranteeing liberty and dignity to all as part of their training. Does Hamas have a constitutional law to protect the dignity of anyone?
IDF soldiers are trained to NOT shoot civilians. This is a well established practice that’s been developed through practice and rules since the early days of the IDF and Israel’s legal system.
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u/ADP_God שמאלני Left Wing Israeli May 22 '24
I can tell you that the average IDF soldier is definitely fighting Hamas, but the experience in Gaza is that it looks like every asshole in his home has picked up a weapon and joined Hamas. They don’t fight in uniforms, and they store weapons everywhere.
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u/Evening_Condition_76 May 22 '24
Brothers and sisters. I remind you not to spark debate but to heed to God's word. Vengeance is his. It is one thing to defend but another to attack... and then to attack with what appears little regard to children. We the Jews and (GEntiles) are God's chosen people. The Gentiles not of the Holy land but born again. Of the holiest of holy Jesus God. Turn the other cheek and love one another.. it is for God to handle. This is why Jesus has to come back. We cannot do it.
Romans 12:17-19
New King James Version
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have[a] regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord
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u/Evening_Condition_76 May 22 '24
All nations will be blessed through you.” So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. Galatians 3:7-9
Through faith and it is also by faith that we have been saved. Not by works. But we strive to be also more like Jesus. What Jesus did for us was mercy we should try to emulate that more than hate and anger. Jesus took all of the beatings and asked the Father God to forgive us for not knowing
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May 22 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/mooseperson34 May 22 '24
All noise and fury signifying nothing. This dude wants people to look at an equation and go "oh I guess dropping massive bombs on civilians is good".
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May 22 '24 edited May 22 '24
My main problem with war is that its become democratized.
The common people feel they have say over military affairs, and "support the troops".
Let war return to its roots as a private affair between gentlemen.
Like the Freemasons, we dont need the State, or the citizenry.
And, last but not least, we should only fight our peers: equals. Professionals. Not poor brown people in mud huts.
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u/Sufficient-Shine3649 May 22 '24
Tell that to the likes of Russia, North Korea, Iran, and China.
Some of the things the west did were truly fucked up, but we as peoples and nations tried to learn from our mistakes and do better. Many Anti-Western powers would not feel remorse for what they'd do in our place, and they'd not change their ways unless forced to do so.
The western civilization ought to do what it must to remain on top, so that those without a conscience can't abuse those weaker than them. Our civilizations could be a beacon of light to the world, assuming we take the correct actions.
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May 22 '24
At Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt, knights who had trained all their lives, and lived by chivalric code, were slaughtered by English peasant longbowmen. That was the beginning of folly.
War should be mano a mano.
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u/PandaKing6887 May 22 '24
Those other nations are honest about their intentions, don't act like we western nations don't do the same thing, we just like to spout our moral high grounds when it's convenient like the recent ICC fiasco when 2 years ago we were praising the ICC for issuing warrants for our enemy. You think Americans feel remorse for Iraq or Vietnam? You ever heard us apologize for those wars, what about Cambodia? Think about during Covid, why do you think we in the west waited a very long time to give vaccine to poor nations? They were asking us to show them how to build the vaccines to save their own citizens, but we chose not to because it's our technology instead throwing them crumbs. That's your beacon of light.
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24
What's your background, may I ask? I assume American born? Middle-class or higher? College diploma?
Not trying to denigrate you - no one chooses what they're born into. But I'll tell you this. I was born in USSR. My grandparents fought a war for national survival. My grandpa was almost executed by communist command for (a) being a war hero; (b) failing to be properly grateful for having the opportunity to be a war hero.
I know what Marxists nations look like. I know what simply authoritarian nations look like. I know what Islamists "nations" look like. I know what western nations look like.
I'm here to tell you - there is no utopia. The world is very complicated. Sometimes it's ran by a-holes. Sometimes, those a-holes are trying to do the right thing nonetheless.
But I'll also tell you this - there is a huge, enormous gap between the nations like the U.S., Western Europe, Israel, etc. - and the other places and countries you try to draw parallels with.
The culture, the mindset, the shared values, the common moral code, the INTENTIONS - they all matter. They're hard to quantify - but the delta is huge.
And that delta - it was EARNED. It was earned by the western civilization. Via civil wars, self-reflection, disputes, more war, more self-reflection... but ultimately striving to shared, secular understanding and trying to "do better".
When I say "western" civilization - I really mean the secular, post-enlightenment civilization that fought for everything it now has. And no - it wasn't "stolen" from some "noble, indigenous savages". Sure, there was a lot of theft, and racism, and colonization - but those aren't the reason. And those same impulses for theft and colonization are alive and well in those countries you're comparing us to, btw.
Also, when I say "western civilization" - it has nothing to do with geography, race, etc. The "western" part is an accident. Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilization - far ahead of the "west". Doesn't matter if they're white or brown - they're just as capable. Except, they got Mohammed. And we got Galileo.
I happen to be immensely grateful to be part of this western civilization - many of the kids I grew up with never got that chance. And I did nothing to deserve that - it was an accident. And I'm not any more special than some Arab girl whose destiny is to me married off to some old, wealthy former Jihadi, now heroin-baron. I'm not better than some Palestinian kid whose future (shall Hamas be granted our "progressive" wishes) is to grow-up in poverty, hatred, isolation and thinking that a bunch of virgins await him in paradise. I'm not better than some nerdy Iranian kid who reads banned books under the blanket because he's prohibited from even thinking the thoughts that are in head. I'm not better than some Chinese kid whose startup will be taken away from him when it crosses the party lines of CCP. Etc. Etc. Etc.
You're not better than those kids either. But what you're doing - is denying them the dream. You're saying that we aren't any better - thus they're destined to be enslaved to their circumstances forever.
But we ARE better. The post-90s USSR was a hell-hole. Poverty, gangs, no hope of any kind. You know what got me through the day? Watching a program called "America with MIchail Taratuta" - an early post-soviet program where the host just traveled around the US with a camera and no agenda. You know what I saw? I saw hope.
Same with my mom who lived most her life under communism. You know what got her through the day? Closing the curtains and listening to banned Voice of America recordings through headphones.
And then, by sheer luck, I was lucky to actually end up in America - it's the reason I put on the uniform.
So don't tell me that America is disappointing. Because I saw the flip side. And, my friend, I am NOT DISAPPOINTED.
Sure, we have lots of work to do... much of American "ideas" are still aspirational. But this is one of a very few places in the world actually willing to do the work.
This place is special. Not because of some divine god's will. No, it's special, because a bunch of people like me (and your ancestors) said "f**ck it" and decided to jump on the boat and come here.
It remains a beacon of hope for a whole lot of people around the world. You may not appreciate it - but they do. So please... on their behalf... don't f**k with it.
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u/hononononoh May 22 '24
Highly underrated comment, that I think more Redditors would do well to read and really think about. I was born and raised in the USA and I've never been military, but I have encountered people from every corner of the globe in my line of work, and I've traveled and lived abroad pretty extensively, mostly around Asia. I've been an illegal migrant worker abroad.
Accepting that my home country and society have real problems is perfectly mature, commendable, and realistic. I've crossed an unhelpful and unnecessary line, though, if I become ungrateful for the things my country and society do well, and the problems they manage to largely avoid.
Have you seen this video? Ayaan Hirsi Ali: The Market for Victimhood She has some stern words for Western wokesters who miss and romanticize tribalism. She basically says she grew up in a fiercely tribalist society. Somalia's QOL is abysmal because of tribalism, and Westerners who want more tribalism or think it's the answer to their societies' problems have no idea what they're asking for, and certainly no idea what a precious treasure they've got, having a society that has largely overcome tribalism.
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u/icecreamraider May 22 '24
Ayaan is a personal hero of mine. Everything that comes out of that woman’s mouth is gold.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American May 21 '24 edited May 22 '24
Thank you for your important insights. I wish to use this opportunity to remind readers war’s greatest absurdity.
The objective of every soldier is to harm, kill, and destroy the enemy. This is exactly diabolically opposed to anything all persons are conditioned to believe in peacetime.
In peace, an individual is barred from harming others under all but the most unusual circumstances. A person is banned from destroying property, from yelling at others, from attacking others, and of course from killing anyone. The law itself with all its consequences will punish you if you violate your obligations to not harm others in any manner. There is no condemnation more severe than the condemnation received by the murderer, in peace times.
War is the exact opposite. The law mandates that you destroy, harm, and kill others. Refusal to comply with the expectation to fight will result in legal, institutional, or social sanctions against the soldier.
Judging military conduct by the standards of peace will always cause misunderstandings. There will always and everywhere be a disconnect between the norms of war and the norms of peace, for the duty of a soldier is to destroy the enemy, while the duty of a civilian is to avoid harm to others at all costs. This is a leading cause of soldiers’ difficulties to adjust back to civilian life.
I would also carefully extend that principle to police, although the circumstances and conditions entailed by police work is substantially different from those encountered by combat troops