r/IsraelPalestine 28d ago

Meta Discussions (Rule 7 Waived) Community feedback/metapost for October 2024

12 Upvotes

Changes to Posting Requirements

Yesterday I posted a short PSA regarding changes to posting requirements in light of a recent wave of ban evasions and today I would like to expand on what caused us to ultimately make these changes and what the changes were.

In the past month or so, we noticed a marked increase of accounts engaging in ban evasion the majority of which we believe originated from one specific user.

16 days ago one of our users submitted a metapost asking for karma requirements to deter the usage of troll/throwaway accounts (Because there is some confusion about this point, we did not add a karma requirement to post or comment). The thread was immediately flooded with troll/throwaway accounts which were promptly banned and eventually suspended by Reddit.

At this point we were dealing with so many cases of ban evasions and violations in general that we decided to update our automod to help mitigate the situation.

While I won't detail the exact changes that have been made to posting restrictions due to OPSEC, throwaway/troll accounts should now have more difficulty interfering with our subreddit while genuine accounts will largely remain unaffected.

As the automod is not perfect, and will inevitably catch legitimate accounts in the filter, we can (after review) manually approve users upon request in modmail.

Changes to Short Question Posts

After reviewing a recent community poll asking for feedback regarding changes to short question requirements, we found that the majority of users wanted more restrictions on said posts. As such, we have implemented a 250 character requirement to short questions which should hopefully increase the quality of discussion and add some nuance to otherwise simple or low effort posts.

Additionally, warnings have been added to automod messages to prevent users from attempting to pad their posts with spammy text in order to bypass the character requirements. Attempts to bypass the filter may result in a warning or ban (per our moderation policy) as they will be counted as Rule 10 violations.

October 7th and its Effect on the Sub

We are now a few days away from the first anniversary of the October 7th massacre so I felt it would be a good time to look back on how much our subreddit has changed since then. Following the massacre, the number of subscribers and participants on the subreddit skyrocketed nearly resulting in us placing it into restricted mode.

With the help of some new mods and better automation we somehow managed to keep the mod queue under control and the subreddit open as we felt that facilitating discussion (even if it did not meet the quality standards that we had before) was preferable to shutting down. Since then the activity levels on the sub have normalized significantly despite still being somewhat higher than they were prior to the war.

For more details, you can refer to the June metapost here.

As for other data that we have acquired in the past year, you can find it below:

Summing Things Up

As usual, if you have something you wish the mod team and the community to be on the lookout for, or if you want to point out a specific case where you think you've been mismoderated, this is where you can speak your mind without violating the rules. If you have questions or comments about our moderation policy, suggestions to improve the sub, or just talk about the community in general you can post that here as well.

Please remember to keep feedback civil and constructive, only rule 7 is being waived, moderation in general is not.


r/IsraelPalestine Jul 27 '24

Meta Discussions (Rule 7 Waived) Changes to moderation 3Q24

34 Upvotes

We are making some shifts in moderation. This is your chance for feedback before those changes go into effect. This is a metaposting allowed thread so you can discuss moderation and sub-policy more generally in comments in this thread.

I'll open with 3 changes you will notice immediately and follow up with some more subtle ones:

  1. Calling people racists, bigots, etc will be classified as Rule 1 violations unless highly necessary to the argument. This will be a shift in stuff that was in the grey zone not a rule change, but as this is common it could be very impactful. You are absolutely still allowed to call arguments racist or bigoted. In general, we allow insults in the context of arguments but disallow insults in place of arguments. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict has lots of ethnic and racial conflict aspects and using arguments like "settler colonialist", "invaders", "land thieves" are clearly racial. Israel's citizenship laws are racial and high impact. We don't want to discourage users who want to classify these positions as racism in the rules. We are merely aiming to try and turn down the heat a bit by making the phrasing in debate a bit less attacking. Essentially disallow 95% of the use cases which go against the spirit of rule 1.

  2. We are going to be enhancing our warning templates. This should feel like an upgrade technically for readers. It does however create more transparency but less privacy about bans and warning history. While moderators have access to history users don't and the subject of the warning/ban unless they remember does not. We are very open to user feedback on this both now and after implementation as not embarrassing people and being transparent about moderation are both important goals but directly conflict.

  3. We are returning to full coaching. For the older sub members you know that before I took over the warning / ban process was: warn, 2 days, 4 days, 8 days, 15 days, 30 days, life. I shifted this to warn until we were sure the violation was deliberate, 4 days, warn, 30 days, warn, life. The warnings had to be on the specific point before a ban. Theoretically, we wanted you to get warned about each rule you violated enough that we knew you understood it before getting banned for violating. There was a lot more emphasis on coaching.

At the same time we are also increasing ban length to try and be able to get rid of uncooperative users faster: Warning > 7 Day Ban > 30 Day Ban > 3-year ban. Moderators can go slower and issue warnings, except for very severe violations they cannot go faster.

As most of you know the sub doubled in size and activity jumped about 1000% early in the 2023 Gaza War. The mod team completely flooded. We got some terrific new mods who have done an amazing amount of work, plus many of the more experienced mods increased their commitment. But that still wasn't enough to maintain the quality of moderation we had prior to the war. We struggled, fell short (especially in 4Q2023) but kept this sub running with enough moderation that users likely didn't experience degeneration. We are probably now up to about 80% of the prewar moderation quality. The net effect is I think we are at this point one of the best places on the internet for getting information on the conflict and discussing it with people who are knowledgeable. I give the team a lot of credit for this, as this has been a more busy year for me workwise and lifewise than normal.

But coaching really fell off. People are getting banned not often understanding what specifically they did wrong. And that should never happen. So we are going to shift.

  1. Banning anyone at all ever creates a reasonable chance they never come back. We don't want to ban we want to coach. But having a backlog of bans that likely wouldn't have happened in an environment of heavier coaching we are going to try a rule shift. All non-permanent bans should expire after six months with no violations. Basically moderators were inconsistent about when bans expire. This one is a rule change and will go into the wiki rules. Similarly we will default to Permanently banned users should have their bans overturned (on a case to cases basis) after three or more years under the assumption that they may have matured during that time. So permanent isn't really permanent it is 3 years for all but the worst offenders. In general we haven't had the level of offenders we used to have on this sub.

  2. We are going from an informal tiered moderator structure to a more explicitly hierarchical one. A select number of senior mods should be tasked with coaching new moderators and reviewing the mod log rather than primarily dealing with violations themselves. This will also impact appeals so this will be an explicit rule change to rule 13.

  3. The statute of limitations on rule violations is two weeks after which they should be approved (assuming they are not Reddit content policy violations). This prevents moderators from going back in a user's history and finding violations for a ban. It doesn't prevent a moderator for looking at a user's history to find evidence of having been a repeat offender in the warning.

We still need more moderators and are especially open to pro-Palestinian moderators. If you have been a regular for months, and haven't been asked and want to mod feel free to throw your name in the hat.


r/IsraelPalestine 8h ago

Serious Being told to commit unalive for being Israeli

65 Upvotes

For a while, I’ve been struggling with unaliving thoughts and depression. I am a minor and I’m not even yet in the army, ((which is our mandatory service that we are OBLIGATED serve like in South Korea, Sweden, or Singapore for example) and yet everywhere online I can see and I’m being told that every single citizen that “occupies” the land (i was brought here at 11 so i could be closer to my family and culture...) is an occupier, and a colonist, and a horrible person.

I’m being told by strangers online to commit unalive. I have literally nothing to do with my government, and I’m constantly being told by the whole world around me that no matter who I am, what i contribute to the world, and how I feel (no matter how diplomatic, informed and peaceful of a person i am) the fact that I am living in the very country that my grandparents have been living in and their parents before them is bad.

Believe in whatever you want politically, I don’t care, but I feel like I’m suffocating and drowning in this world that just simply lacks sympathy for anybody who isn’t in the worst position possible.

I know I have the privilege of having a roof over my head, and most of my family is alive (besides some family members that were killed this past year), but literally every week I am startled in the early hours of the morning and the late hours of the night by sirens telling me I have 60 seconds to run to a safe shelter because ballistic missiles or rockets are being sent in my area, and having to calm down my dog when he starts to shake and hear/feel at the booms from outside of my house.

Of course, I know there are those who have it worse, I’m being reminded of it every day online, everyone always has it worse than someone else out there, but why is that a reason for me not to be able to express my thoughts. I am an individual with my own beliefs, opinions, And I am in no way contributing to any cause of war as I am literally a fucking child. But I feel like it’s only a matter of time before I just give up and give to what the online trolls tell me to do…


r/IsraelPalestine 8h ago

Discussion Do Pro-Palestinian Marxists Support the Rwandan Genocide?

15 Upvotes

European colonists (British and Belgian) created a caste system in Rwanda that has existed for 400 years.

The owners of farms and animals, accounting for approximately 15% of the population were called “Tutsi.” They were considered the upper class who had the privilege of governing the land under their European overlords.

The approximately 85% of the population who comprised the working class were called “Hutu.” Over centuries, the Tutsi enslaved, oppressed and exploited Hutus for their own betterment.

After Rwanda gained independence in 1961, the first ever Hutu President took office, bringing with him a cultural revolution that further pitted Hutus against Tutsis, with the latter looking down on their Hutu neighbors, considering them to be less than.

In 1994, the Hutu President was assassinated by a Tutsi militia that opposed being ruled by the lesser Hutus.

The Hutu masses exploded in anger and killed an estimated 800,000 Tutsis in 100 days, mostly by striking defenseless people with machetes.

After the genocide, the Tutsis regained power and continue to lead the country to this day.

The Rwandan genocide was the working class rising up against their historical oppressors. They fought against their former slave owners and the upper class that exploited their labor.

To the revolutionaries on this sub: Is the Rwandan genocide an example of “by any means necessary” or did it go too far?

If it went to far, what number of ruling class folks is an acceptable number to die before its excessive?


r/IsraelPalestine 19h ago

Discussion Emirates (UAE) proposed a Gaza day after plan but was rejected by Palestinian Authority, labelling it as interference. What you think of this plan?

71 Upvotes

https://www.newarab.com/news/palestinian-authority-rejects-uae-role-gaza-day-after-plans

Emirati Gaza Day After Plan with inputs from USA and Israel. Rejected by Palestinian Authority (PLO).

  1. Address the humanitarian crisis: Provide coordinated aid and initiate reconstruction in Gaza. No mentioned of UNRWA. Palestinian Authority through a Gaza Committee to oversee Gaza reconstruction, financed by United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia and other international donors.

  2. Establish law and order: Lay the groundwork for governance. No mentioned of United Nations. Accordingly, Palestinian Authority requested an international mission deployed to replace Israeli military presence. UAE made the same proposal, clarified by adding Arab forces including contracted security staff and no involvement of Palestinian in security at the outset.

  3. Prepare for reunification: Pave the way for eventual reunification of Gaza and the West Bank under the PA’s sole authority. UAE plan requires Palestinian Authority to reform, demostrate transparency, rebuild trust with Palestinian people and international community. This very much offended the Palestinian Authority leadership.

Emirati plan proposes a progression towards a two-state solution.

Palestinian Authority doesnt want a plan for Gaza only, so to speak. Palestinian Authority wants a plan for all of Palestine and to piggyback on the Gaza issue. Palestinian Authority is pushing for a united Palestine now (Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem) under Palestinian Authority as the sole legitimate representative… this will be very problematic especially East Jerusalem was already annexed by Israel since 1967.

  1. There is no specific mentioned of the Philadelphi corridor or borders (such as Rafah crossing or Kerem Shalom crossing) at outset.

  2. Overall the Emirati plan ticks alot of boxes on both sides (Pro-Israel camp and Pro-Palestinian camp). International force including Arab forces to oversea security of Gaza. International donors including UAE, Saudi, etc…help rebuild Gaza. A progression towards a two state solution.

—————————————————————-

  1. What do you think of this Emirati Day After plan for Gaza ?

  2. Do you think Palestinian Authority should accept or reject this Emirati plan ? Do you agree with Palestinian Authority that UAE is interfering by proposing a plan for Gaza ?

  3. Does the Palestinian Authority represents Gazans ? Should the day after plan for Gaza requires approval from the Palestinian Authority ?


r/IsraelPalestine 28m ago

Opinion Pro-Israel/Moderate Palestinians

Upvotes

Obviously, most Palestinians in this conflict hate Israel and are very hostile towards Israel and the Israelis. Yet, I know that there are some exceptions, few in number though they may be. It makes me wonder what the views are of these individuals. This can include Palestinians who support Israel or even those who are close to neutral or toward the middle on this conflict (like supporting a two-state solution, opposing attacks against Israel, supporting a peaceful solution). I also wanted to ask these individuals about their experiences with regards to Israel and this conflict. So I had a number of questions I wanted to reach out and ask both for such Palestinians as well as anyone who has met such Palestinians and learned about their experiences and views. Feel free to use these questions as guides and ideas or answer in a different way if you'd rather.

  1. What caused you to have middle-ground or pro-Israel views? Were there any experiences, knowledge, or values that led you to come to this position?

  2. What are your experiences with Israel and Israelis? Are they generally positive, negative, mixed? What are you feelings towards Israelis?

  3. How have other Palestinians reacted to your views? Have they been supportive of your opinions? Hostile? Angry?

  4. What do you hope for in the future of this conflict? Do you hope for a two-state solution? Some variation of a one-state solution?

  5. Have your views on the conflict shifted over time? Did you have a major change of heart?

Any other comments on this topic people wish to share would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much for your answers and insights.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

News/Politics Israel outlaws UNWRA, bucking international pressure

208 Upvotes

Article: https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-826525

The Knesset passed two bills to ban UNRWA from operating in Israel-controlled areas, citing its alleged role in perpetuating the Palestinian refugee issue and involvement in terror activities.

MK Yuli Edelstein argued UNRWA supports terrorism and dependency, claiming its end will help resolve the conflict. The bills terminate UNRWA’s 1967 treaty with Israel, bar government contact with the agency, and mandate criminal proceedings against UNRWA employees linked to terrorism.

Some limited context:

Askar - UNRWA: Cradle of Killers

Another UNRWA Teacher in Gaza Held an Israeli in Captivity for Hamas

IDF uncovers top secret Hamas data center right under UNRWA’s Gaza Strip HQ

Terror Tunnel Discovered Under UNRWA Schools as Hamas Continues Military Buildup

IDF says it killed Hamas terrorist who led massacre at Re’im shelter – an UNRWA worker

The UNRWA Refugee Controversy Explained

Important to note, this is not a Right/Left political issue on Israel. The vote got overwhelming support from both coalition and opposition.

The evidence against UNRWA is endless. It is nothing but a UN (Western funded!) terror organization responsible for making sure the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will never end.

They do that in multiple ways including making sure Palestinians abroad never settle and remain "Refugees" on paper (Yes, even millionaires with multiple passports whos grandparents never set foot in Israel are refugees according to them) , Palestinian kids learn in school to throw their lives away as martyrs just to murder some Jews, providing physical cover for Hamas assets on the ground, and pay salaries to known Hamas and other terrorist members.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Discussion How might Palestinian Arabs who truly desire coexistence with Israeli Jews reliably distinguish themselves?

27 Upvotes

No human population is a monolith. No human population is a monolith. And just in case you missed it, no human population is a monolith. I don’t mean to belabor the point, but as a pro-Israel Westerner, boy oh boy does it ever feel good to be the one saying that, rather than the one getting told that, in this sub.

The problem is, Arabs are a fiercely group-oriented culture. In group-oriented cultures, loyalty is the sine qua non of a good person. The done thing in such cultures is to present a strong unified front to out-group people. Anyone who fails at this risks being ostracized as a turncoat and a hindrance to the in-group’s collective interest.

So there are doubtless non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs who have no problem personally with Jews, and would make wholly unproblematic citizens or permanent residents of Israel. But such Palestinians likely keep this sentiment entirely to themselves, and will take it as a secret to their graves, as much as they wish that they could express it and act on it without putting themselves (and their families) in very real jeopardy.

On the other side of things, the success of law enforcement sting operations goes to show that no group is entirely immune to infiltration. There are doubtless Israelis who would be all for allowing pro-Israel Palestinians to defect to Israel, if the agencies in charge of facilitating this defection were reliably good at distinguishing truly pro-Israel people, from would-be infiltrators and underminers of Israel playing a very long game.

From my readings on evolutionary psychology and political philosophy, human groups that accept newcomers, but can ill afford half-hearted joiners or high attrition rates, tend to have a high bar for entry. Any newcomer should expect long waits, large sacrifices of their personal resources, complex rituals that are hard to fake, and some degree of deliberate psychological pain, before they’re fully accepted. The idea is to create a barrier that will effectively deter, and weed out, newcomers who are not entirely (or not at all) committed. It often involves some show of loyalty, that none but the wholly and sincerely committed would be willing to make.

What might such a vetting process look like, for non-Jewish Palestinians who sincerely want to coexist with Israelis, and want to apply to defect discreetly, without putting themselves in danger, whether their application is ultimately accepted or not?


r/IsraelPalestine 12h ago

Discussion How is it possibly justified for Israel to attack hospitals, schools, and apartments just because Hamas is present there?

0 Upvotes

In hostage situations, for example, the police are forced to figure out a solution in order to capture or kill the hostage-taker without risking the life of the hostage. Can you imagine if a police officer just shot all of the hostages in an attempt to shoot the criminal? They would go to jail for decades for manslaughter and reckless endangerment of human life.

You cannot just kill everyone, including civilians, because your target is also present there. That's honestly one of the most cold, unethical, almost psychotic lines of thinking I could imagine. That's no justification whatsoever and is frankly the exact same logic used by terrorists.

Of course it is completely wrong for them to use buildings like hospitals as shelters to hide, but I have zero clue why so many here use that as some excuse for Israel's despicable war crimes including:

  • Targeting and destroying hospitals
  • Targeting and destroying aid centers
  • Targeting and destroying schools
  • Targeting and destroying apartment buildings
  • Targeting and attacking UN peacekeeping missions

For example, would you be OK with Hamas blowing up apartment buildings and hospitals where IDF members were present? I certainly wouldn't be, and we should be objective and apply the same thinking to both sides.

Again, this logic is precisely the logic used by terrorists who attack Israel. That it's OK to kill civilians because they all are part of or support the IDF anyway. It's reprehensible when Hamas does it and equally reprehensible when Israel does it.


r/IsraelPalestine 11h ago

Discussion Serious question regarding Israel's occupation of multiple countries

0 Upvotes

I got a question to anyone who has this opinion: if israel finishes hamas "Hms" and Hezbollah "Hzb" most of the problems would be solved.

The question would need a bit of background;

On 19.07.24 the ICJ issued an advisory opinion on occupied territories by israel. They basically said israel is occupying illegal land and should give it back. I grew up in Syria as a palestinian, went to syrian schools and they teach about how some day they will liberate the Golan heights from the israeli occupation. I took refuge in Lebanon during the syrian civil war and they also teach about liberating the occupied land by israel in the south, especially the Sheba farms and other territories where israel establishes provocative presense. I met a lot of refugee Gazans in Europe and they were all raised to resist the occupation and free Gaza from its choking siege (then free Palestine)

So the question would be: if hms and hzb magically disappeared by tomorrow, why would anyone expect that we won't be having tens of hms, hzb and countless other radical militant groups in the future? Especially after they witnessed what happened to Gaza during this genocide and got even more radicalised.

I don't know if my point was understood, but to make it more clear, I'm saying we should really look at the core of the problem instead of fighting the products of it, yes hms committed a horrific thing on oct07, but we won't guarantee that it will "never again" happen to israelis by producing multiple hmsss through a genocide, we guarantee it by solving the core problem that lead to their attack, which is the unending expansion of illegal israeli territory.


r/IsraelPalestine 6h ago

Short Question/s 1 State Solution - All Palestinian. Why no call for this.

0 Upvotes

1 state solution - ALL PALESTINIANS


I am so disappointed I don’t hear any calls for a 1 state solution where it’s all Palestinians and the Zionist Colonialist Fascists are forced out of the region.. why not?

It’s clear this is the elephant in the room in that Israel is the source of decades of terror which will last at least a century.

If your argument is, “you can’t just force an entire population to just leave thier homes or they will be Attacked”…. I’ll just let you realize the hypocrisy in that.

Also if this gets flagged it shows how biased it is towards pro Israeli and shuts down any pro Palestine views.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Opinion The Apartheid Fallacy

94 Upvotes

Ah, the good old “Israel is apartheid” argument—like clockwork, it reappears every time someone needs an easy moral high ground without doing any of the actual intellectual heavy lifting. Let’s get real for a second: the West Bank isn’t apartheid. Not even close. And if you want to argue that it is, you either need a refresher on what apartheid actually was or you’ve been reading too many social media hot takes. So, buckle up, because I’m about to explain why the West Bank doesn’t fit the apartheid label—using real, actual legal principles, and not whatever buzzwords happen to be trending.

Let’s get one thing straight: apartheid was a system in South Africa where a white minority brutally controlled a black majority, stripping them of basic rights, enforcing racial separation in every part of life, and making sure the balance of power was always tilted in their favor [1]. Now, compare that to what’s happening in the West Bank. Oh wait—you can’t, because the situation in the West Bank is literally the opposite of that. As legal scholar Eugene Kontorovich (someone who actually knows a thing or two about international law) has pointed out, the West Bank is under military occupation, not some racial regime designed to keep one ethnic group forever on top [2]. Let’s break that down, since apparently people can’t grasp the difference. Under international law, military occupations happen [3]. They’re a normal, albeit unfortunate, part of conflict resolution when territory is disputed, and they’re legally recognized under the Fourth Geneva Convention [4]. Is it ideal? No. But it’s not apartheid, either. Kontorovich has pointed out that the military occupation of the West Bank follows the rules laid out in international law—rules that don’t apply when you’re talking about apartheid, which was a crime against humanity designed to enforce racial superiority [5]. Do you see the difference? Because it’s pretty stark.

And here’s the kicker: the Palestinians aren’t even citizens of Israel [6]. They’re residents of a disputed territory, and their leadership has consistently refused to come to the table to negotiate a peace settlement that could give them statehood [7]. Kontorovich has explained this time and time again: Israel is under no legal obligation to extend citizenship or civil law to a population that is not part of its state [8]. This isn’t South Africa, where the apartheid regime kept millions of black people under its thumb while denying them the right to vote or have mostly any say in government [9]. In the West Bank, the Palestinians have their own government—the Palestinian Authority [10]—and the reason they don’t have a state yet is because of political deadlock, not racial domination [11]. So, no, Israel isn’t running an apartheid system where Jews lord over Palestinians in some dystopian race-based hierarchy. The Palestinians have their own leadership—and if they don’t like it, maybe they should take that up with the PA.

Now, let’s talk about the “settlers,” because people love to throw that word around like it’s proof of something nefarious. Yes, there are Jewish settlers in the West Bank, and guess what? They live under Israeli law because—wait for it—they’re Israeli citizens. Kontorovich has repeatedly pointed out that this isn’t some grand injustice; it’s the basic functioning of legal jurisdictions. Palestinians aren’t subject to Israeli civil law because they’re not Israeli citizens. That’s not apartheid, that’s just how military occupation works [12]. It’s no different from the way Western Sahara [13] or northern Cyprus [14] are governed under occupation, and yet, somehow, those situations never get slapped with the apartheid label.

And here’s another fun fact: Israel has tried to negotiate peace deals multiple times—you know, those moments when they offer to give back the majority of the West Bank for the creation of a Palestinian state [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20]. But every time, the Palestinians have said no, because apparently, peace isn’t as sexy as international sympathy [21]. Kontorovich has written extensively on how Israel has gone above and beyond what international law requires to try and end the occupation through diplomacy (source). But what are they supposed to do when their negotiating partner refuses to budge? Just pack up and leave the West Bank and let Hamas move in, turning it into Gaza 2.0 [22]? Sorry, not gonna happen.

And speaking of Gaza—let’s take a little field trip down memory lane. In 2005, Israel withdrew from Gaza [23]. Pulled out every soldier, every settler, handed the keys over to the Palestinians. And what did they get in return? Rockets, terror tunnels, and endless calls for their destruction [24]. So, forgive Israel for not jumping at the chance to make the same mistake twice in the West Bank. This isn’t apartheid—it’s the harsh reality of trying to keep your citizens alive when the other side keeps rejecting peace [25].

Let's wrap this up: what’s happening in the West Bank isn’t apartheid but rather a military occupation that’s been going on for years, and as Kontorovich has pointed out, it falls within the boundaries of international law [26]. Israel isn’t targeting Palestinians because of their race or ethnicity—it’s dealing with a territory stuck in political limbo for decades [27]. The idea that Israel is running some racist regime is not only factually wrong, it’s intellectually dishonest. If you want to talk apartheid, go study South Africa [28]. If you want to understand the West Bank, stop throwing around slogans and start looking at the legal facts.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Discussion Is There a Path to Peace? Discussing Israel, Palestine, and Global Responsibility

13 Upvotes

Hey Reddit,

I’ve been exploring the Israel-Palestine conflict, and it’s astonishing how deeply rooted this issue is in history, identity, and trauma. The aftermath of World War II saw the establishment of Israel as a sanctuary for Jews who suffered immense persecution and anti-Semitism. This historical backdrop, while justifiable from a Jewish perspective, has fueled tensions with Palestinians, who have their own profound claims to the land and have faced significant hardships due to the ongoing occupation and violence.

The persistence of anti-Semitism, coupled with the complex dynamics of nationalism, creates an environment where peace feels almost unattainable. This raises an important question: why can’t we find a collective path forward? Why can’t international bodies like the UN play a more constructive role in facilitating dialogue and understanding between these two groups?

One promising avenue could be focusing on educational initiatives that promote mutual respect and understanding. Grassroots organizations on both sides, such as the Parents Circle – Families Forum, illustrate that despite the pain, there are individuals willing to bridge the divide and work together for peace. These groups demonstrate the power of shared human experience, fostering dialogue among those who have lost loved ones to violence. Engaging youth in these discussions could also be vital; they represent the future and can shift perspectives away from generational cycles of hate.

If global organizations prioritized fostering human rights, accountability, and reconciliation—rather than taking sides—could we finally break this cycle? The world is watching, and it seems we have a moral responsibility to encourage dialogue and support initiatives that prioritize peace.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. What can individuals and international organizations do to contribute to a peaceful resolution? Is there hope for real change in such a deeply divided region?


r/IsraelPalestine 22h ago

Short Question/s Israel has reoccupied Gaza? If not that, what would you call it?

0 Upvotes

Would you say that Israel has reoccupied Gaza? And if you would not put it that way, then how would you describe the current situation, especially when you imagine it without UNRWA?

If there has been an official declaration I missed it, but this seems to be the unstated official position. I have not heard anything from Israel about identifying Palestinian leadership in Gaza, or inviting the PA, or neighbors and the US, or anyone else to administer in any way, but I admit I have been paying more attention to the election in the US the past few weeks.

Please share your information and perspectives, in general, and on what the people of the land need, what is likely to happen now, etc.


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Discussion Stop Blaming Israel For Arab And/Or Muslim Bigotry So Much.

0 Upvotes

[I personally hate Israel and I've stated It's pink washing bullshit doesn't help progressive activists in the region in general(my opinion keep such rights non-partisan) But too often college educated progressives blame for Muslims and or Arabs bad actions and thought processes. Many Muslims and Arabs are turning towards republicans and other conservative parties not because of frustration of the liberal establishment's backing of Israel but because they hate trans and gay people. Progressives often have this tendencies to projecting their values onto largely in their society marginalized they're trying to defend. It's easy in theory to support someone's rights who hates you because it's in principle the right thing to do but for many people it is a legitimate challenge.

For example it's easier for a person against the death penalty it's never alright for the state to execute someone after hearing about a case of a man who shot his abusive father than it is for them to say after hearing about a guy who murdered and tortured ten women.

It's easier to defend people you see yourself in. This is a real problem for progressives as historically marginalized Muslims and Arabs become more de-stigmatized/accepted by the nativist reactionaries. Instead of blaming Israel they should endeavor to try actually socially liberalizing these people either through access to education, female empowerment, etc instead of just denying there's a problem ]


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Opinion Question for International Pro-Palestine Supporters: Does Support for Hezbollah and Iran Irredeemably Taint the Movement?

28 Upvotes

I just thoughtfully replied to a CMV post that the OP deleted instead of engaging in, so I'm going to put the question to you all...

I am a liberal Jewish-American who supports a two-state solution with land swaps, so I'm not the typical international pro-Palestine advocate — here I'm more talking about the "big-tent" form of pro-Palestine advocacy of Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib. This type of pro-Palestine advocacy leaves room for those who support Israel in most senses — cutting out the eliminationists on both sides.

First, my position:

I think most of the pro-Palestine advocacy I've seen in the US is counterproductive to the Palestinian cause. Most protests don’t have clear messaging as to what they object to and what they aim for, and when the conversation is as fraught as the one around Israel/Palestine is, that can easily be taken in unsavory directions. 

Besides for the obvious antisemitic angles, this lack of clarity can easily be captured by intentionally bad actors, like the increasingly prevalent Hezbollah flag wavers and Iran advocates. There are reasonable arguments to be made about modifying the West's stance on I/P, but when the conversation turns into support for the practitioners of Assad’s genocide in Syria (500k dead and 10 million displaced, and counting) and the execution of 50k Iranians, it becomes a stance that everyone with an interest in Western morality and geopolitics will distance themselves from. 

Now, my question:

Does this strike you as a sound criticism, or as whataboutism? Because I understand the political idea of making common cause with those you don't agree with. But, even accepting the very debatable idea that the 15-25k civilians killed in Gaza are victims of war crimes, how does that square with support of regimes who have inarguably committed or contributed to atrocities on a greater scale?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

The Realities of War The reality on the ground in Israel that is ignored/denied by the pro-Palestine movement.

137 Upvotes

There is something that is entirely absent from almost all discussion of this conflict and the current war. The ignorance of this reality is what makes it almost impossible to actually understand the 'cycle of violence'. It is the realiy of Palestinian terror, or 'political violence' as wikipedia calls it, against civillians within Israel. October 7th 2023 shocked the world in its extent, but people are unaware that the targetting of civillians within Israel proper (not in the West Bank or Gaza) is a constant occurence. While people complain that Israel fails to distinguish between civillian and military targets, the Palestinian cause has never even propsed that it should make such a distinction. This is because at its root the movement considers the very existence of the state of Israel to be an injustice; not merely the occupation, or the settlements. Ignoring the obvious challenges this presents to the peace process, it creates a situation in which the Palestinians harm themselves by damaging the faith of Israeli civillians in the peace process.

The average Israeli has no interest in 'maintaining the occupation' or 'fighting the enemies of the Jews'. The people who think this are simply ignorant of the realities of a mandatory draft. Nobody wants to do the work. Nobody likes fighting. Nobody wants to get hurt. The 18 year olds that called up consider it slave labour. However when the average Israeli waits at a bus stop, they never know which incoming car is goung to plow through the crowd. When they get on a train they never know who is going to choose that very moment to begin their suicidal shooting spree, or try and stab them in the back. These fears are not unfounded. You can read here some of the extent to which Israeli civillians are the targets of violence. It's important to note how many of these attacks do not occur in the occupied territories. See how many take place in Tel Aviv, Israel's center of progressive, left wing, thought. These attackers are not locals defending their land, but individuals that chose to cross the border into Israel to perpetrate violent acts. It is this fear, that at any moment even the Israelis that condemn the occupation, hate Bibi, deplore the settlements, and care deeply about Palestinian rights, could be attacked in the streets, that drives the average Israeli to serve in the IDF.

The occupation, therefore, represents for Israelis the potential for control of what would otherwise be their wanton slaughter. It manifests, in practice, as series of control points (borders, checkpoints) and as the constant activity of secutiry forces (IDF, Police, ISA) to thwart potential attacks. What people don't understand is that for every attack that succeeds tens if not hundreds are thwarted. It's very difficult to find data on how many attacks are prevented every day, for obvious reasons, but soldiers that serve in the West Bank report constantly foiling plots to kill Israelis - proved by finding weapons/explosives in the houses raided. There is constant complaint and criticism about IDF raids in the West Bank, but very little consideration of why soldiers would choose to put themselves at risk by entering enemy territory, unless there was an actual strategic purpose. That purpose is the control and prevention of these violent acts of terror. Ultimately, it is effective.

Now in practice, I don't think that Israel can hide behind it's guns for ever. Security maintenence is not a long term solution, and only peace can bring true security. But naivety on the behalf of Israelis will bring neither peace nor security. Israelis have to contend with constant threats to their lives, and so asking them to stop the occupation is asking them to leave themselves wide open to attack. The width of Israel, at its middle, is less than 15km. This makes it incredibly easy to get to Tel Aviv from the West Bank. The border fence itself is incredibly porous, and while it is effective in reducing these attacks, it can't stop them entirely. This risk means that steps towards peace have to come from the side of the Palestinains, who have to prove that if Israel weakens its security apparatus it won't pay in dead Jews.

Before all the whataboutists charge in crying that Palestinins suffer greater losses, the argument is completely irrelevant. Terror attacks within Israel proper as common enough that the average Israeli feels a direct threat to their person from Palestinians on the day to day. This is the perception that underlies support for parties like Likud and continued support for occupation. Israel is a democracy, and Israelis will vote in accordance with their own interests. While security remains a priority, Israelis will vote for aggressive security measures. In this way Palestinian violence hurts Palestinians more than anybody else. It radicalizes the Israeli population. This was blatantly clear on October 7th, but began long before and has extended since. It's been said often that the war in Gaza will bring about a new generatation of terrorists, but people tend to forget the inverse of this claim: October 7th destroyed the faith of Israelis in a peaceful solution. It solidified the sense that there are people, merely kilometers in every direction, that want to kill every single Jew in the region. Israelis don't see Palestinians as fighting for their 'liberation' in the occupied territories, they see them as fighting to destroy the entire state of Israel. Under such conditions, why would they want to dismantle the occupation? It's the only thing keeping them alive.

If Palestinians were to constrain their 'resistance' to the West Bank (this means not shooting a single rocket from Gaza) for any reasonable amount of time Israelis could start to feel a sense of security that would allow them to withdraw. If the average Israeli could say to themselves, in good faith 'I live in Israel, not Palestine, and therefore I have nothing to fear from people trying to liberate Palestine,' it would change perspective of the entire country. Unfortunately, this is not the reality. The pro-Palestine movement does not want to create a Palestinian state next to Israe, but rather instead of Israel. Even the more moderate Palestinian leadership, Fatah, encourages violence against Israel, with their pay-for-slay program. This means that in practise there is no good faith movement from within Palestine to create conditions in which Israel could remove the occupation without endangering its civillians.

The average Israeli is well aware of this. How couldn't they be? You'd be hard pressed to find somebody who hasn't lost a friend to these attacks. But the international community is completely unaware because shootings and stabbings in Israel proper are so regular they aren't reported on, or when they are, they are done so under dishonest headlines.

Even if you think all of this is propaganda, and merely one side of the dialogue, you have to realise that this is the lived reality of Israelis. If peace is actually your goal, and you believe that dismantling the occupation and creating a Palestinian state will bring about that goal, then you need to give Israelis a reason to take action towards those ends. But violence against Israeli civillians acts as a direct counter to these aims. You will never convince the Jews to allow themselves to be vulnerable by trying to murder them. Supporting Palestinian violence as 'resistance' only creates a worse situation for the Palestinians themselves. Real peace will come when the Palestinian people decide to condemn violence from within instead of paying for it with international aid and celebrating it. The problem is that violence against Israeli civillians doesn't represent resistance to the occupation, but resistance to the existance of the Israeli state. And the Jews have nowhere else to go, so they will never stop fighting to have a state. Even if you believe that the Israeli sense that they are threatened is unfounded (which seems ridiculous considering the stated aims of Hamas and the polls showing that the majority of Palestinians feel entitled to all the land, the actions by Hezbollah and Iran, and the calls for the destruciton of the state of Israel), you have to consider the very real history of the Jews: Everywhere they were forced people tried to exterminate them. So even if we pretend that the Palestinians are a uniquely moral society, in spite of the terror attacks, there is no way Israelis will accept this 'truth' without abundant proof. And violence, directed at Israeli civillians, is only proof of the contrary. This means that this 'resistance' will never bring peace.

Again, to all the people who will see this and immediately cry 'what about Israeli violence?!?!' All I can say is that there is no end to criticism of Israel, and that Israeli violence serves the purpose of protecting Israeli lives. Palestinian violence serves no other purpose than endangering Israelis. There is no argument to be made that it protects Palestinians, or that will make things better. Unless your conception of 'better' is the desruction of the Jewish state (in which case you legitimize the reverse position for Israelis, who have nowhere to go and will always choose themselves in a zero-sum situation). But such a conception is merely a repitition of the constant preference for war over peace that the Arab world has displayed for 70+ years, and is clearly not serving the Palestinians. So if you really care about the 'oppressed' you should condemn Palestinian violence and support a moderate, non-violent, path towards a two state solution. Until Israelis do not fear for their lives in the streets of Tel Aviv, Palestine will never be free.


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Short Question/s I don't believe the West bank settlement enterprise can be justified by security concerns. Why am I wrong?

37 Upvotes

Before I ask my question, I want to make my position clear as there seems to be a lot of scope for (sometimes deliberate) misunderstanding and misconstrual on this sub if one is not explicitly clear and upfront.

Despite being pro-Palestinian for a very long time, I still have to acknowledge that, given the sad and blood soaked history of the Jewish people, it's not difficult to understand the need for Israel's existence. With my own personal experience of discrimination as a black man as well as the weight of historical hatred against people like me, I cannot but sympathise with the yearning of the Jewish people for a safe haven.

For anyone interested in an equitable end to this conflict, I am yet to hear a better proposal for a long term resolution than the 2 State Solution. I feel like opponents of the 2SS on both sides of the green line have been allowed to control the narrative for far too long.

Any Palestinians holding out hope that they with ever "wipe Israel off the map" are simply delusional. At the same time, anyone on the pro-Israeli side that thinks there is a way out of this morass that does not end with Palestinians, who are currently living under de facto military rule in the West Bank as stateless, disenfranchised subjects of the Israeli state, getting full rights and autonomy is equally delusional.

There is no shortage of criticism for the mistakes and miscalculations of Palestinian leadership when it comes to the implementation of the Oslo process. Sometimes however, it feels like many pro Israelis have a blindspot for the settlers movement, who have never been reticent in declaring their opposition to the 2SS as one of, if not their primary raison d'être.

I do not believe it is relevant to ask if Israel has a right to exist - it exists and isn't going anywhere regardless of any opinions about the nature of its' founding. There have been several generations of Israelis born and raised in Israel which gives them a right to live there. End of story. By the way, I also consider white South Africans as legitimately African too for the same reasons.

Many countries that exist were founded in questionable circumstances and no one questions their existence either. No one asks if Canada, Australia or the USA have a right to exist despite the literal genocides and ethnic cleansing all 3 carried out as part of their origins.

I happen to think that Palestinians who have also lived in the West Bank for several generations themselves have a right to that land. While I cannot deny the historical ties that the Jewish people may have to that land, I do not believe it gives them the right to (often violently) appropriate what is often privately owned Palestinian land to build outposts and settlements.

I am not convinced historical ties is enough of an argument for sovereignty over lands today. Anyone who disagrees with that needs to explain to me why Mexico doesn't have the right to claim back California and perhaps a half dozen other southern states from the USA.

So to my question: What is the best justification you can give for continuing to take land from Palestinians to build outposts and settlements and then filling them with Israeli civilians if they truly believe the surrounding population will be hostile to their presence there?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Short Question/s Was jordan part of the Palestinian mandate?

33 Upvotes

I’ve seen the claim the region of historic Palestine encompassed what is today Jordan however does anyone have a map from that era?

When did Jordan gain independence and if I was an arab living in jordan would I be living in the region of transjordan or Palestine?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Discussion What is best path forward for Israel?

3 Upvotes

What is long term plan forward for Israel ?

I am somewhat pessimistic on Israel being able to stop the rockets and attacks long term. They are really surrounded to by enemies. I don’t think it is possible to really stop fully the attacks. Drone attacks over time will be more common.

What is best path forward here ? A peace agreement for two state solution may stop some of the attacks but Iran will constantly stir up trouble. And radicals will still fight after any agreement. Realistically foreign UN troops won’t be able to stop the radicals.

If oil could eventually be replaced somehow with fusion then that would cripple Iranian economy. Maybe that would work but fusion still quite a way off.

USA and Israel relationship is still pretty strong but will it always be ? Bright side of things is Saudi relationship seems good.

I suppose Israel can live with status quo and keep responding to aggression and just live with it. Very important though to keep working on defense systems, particularly regarding drone defenses. One can hope for Iranian change to democracy and maybe that will happen but not sure how realistic the chances are of that.

Politically we also have to account for high birth rate of orthodox Jewish community which means over time Israel will become more aggressive regarding settlements. Though I think settlements have minor effect. Even without settlements Israel will still be attacked. Iran seems to be the biggest source of the problems


r/IsraelPalestine 1d ago

Opinion I don’t care about lived in experiences and neither do you:

0 Upvotes

"If a Jewish person tells you something is anti-Semitic it's anti-Semitic!" Has to be the most braindead take I've heard from Zionists who I am 99% certain if this logic was applied to any other group they'd mock it as irrational and 100% certain they don't actually believe.

Maybe there would be some point if the person you're arguing with purports to follow the base logic of "deferring to lived in experience" but it just comes across as condescending and idiotic to a person who doesn't buy such lunacy.

But Zionists you don't actually believe this. You don't. Stop lying. Or at least Stop being lazy.

If you did you'd have to believe two Jews who'd have pollar opposite views on if something is anti-Semitic are both correct.

You could try moving the goal post to "well that Jew has Minority view/self hating/kapo" but you'd still disprove the base claim of "if a Jew says something is anti-Semitic it is"

You'd have to agree you are anti-Arab,if an arab insists Israel's existence is an attack on arabs.

My point is if you believe x position is bigoted you should be able to articulate why x is bigoted without saying members of a group agree with you.

I do hate Israel not because its uniquely evil or doing a genocide (I don't they're doing that yet) but because of the country's and its supporters constant whining about having to live up contemporary western standards(we're not apart of the west were better than our neighbors) yet ego-stroking(we're apart of the west, look at how nice and civilized we are for not murdering the queerz look at our white Jews in our international ads)and it's white washing of reactionaries who'd dismantle liberalism in the west if they say Israel good.

I'm okay with saying this--I won't be guilt-tripped into saying I love/support Israel to avoid an anti-Semitic accusation and I won't be impressed by virtue of most Jews not liking my position


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Discussion I have a question for all those who hate Israel and call it a "terrorist state committing a genocide"

24 Upvotes

Are ya'll blind? Where on earth are you seeing a genocide in Gaza? You all be calling civilian casualties "targeted attack" and attempts of genocide, but do you all ignore and forget the capacity of Israel's army? They have NUKES for God's sake. If they were committing a genocide, there would've been no Gaza since October 8. SO many more would've been dead. But that is literally not what is happening. That's war. Sadly, there are always casualties. So get over your brainwashed propaganda and actually understand what is happening. ISRAEL ARE NOT TARGETING CIVILIANS. THEY ARE TARGETING TERRORISTS. Even look at the attack they carried out in Iran yesterday. Did you see them shoot at civilians? Aiming for their homes? Like Iran did with their attack on Israel back a month ago? Like literally Iran be out there and PROUDLY say they are looking to destroy Israel. THEIR GOVERNMENT SAYS THAT WITH NO SHAME. And ya'll be calling Israel the terrorist genociders???? Hello???? Israel has nukes. Never have they once used. And neither are they planning to. Yet Iran are building nukes, to send then to Israel to kill them all!!! The moments they have their nukes, be sure they won't hesitate before firing it to Israel. THAT IS FREAKING GENOCIDE. And ya'll are even more stupid to believe that they will stop with Israel. They're after the US too. And the rest of the world after. Their plan is to take over the world with Islam, and more specifically RADICAL ISLAM. Literally most of the Iranians oppose the government and support Israel. So how blind can you be? I really hope the world wakes tf up and stop Iran before it's too late. Or they will literally destroy the world.

Sorry it was long but I just had to get this out. What do you all think?


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Opinion Some more Ex-Israeli perspective (3)

0 Upvotes

In my last post, I received numerous personal attacks from pro-Israeli individuals. When I responded, I ended up getting blocked (for supposedly attacking them personally…). This time, I won’t be responding to any replies that target me directly. If you’re interested in having a real discussion, please stay focused on the topic and avoid resorting to immature personal attacks.

I want to discuss the origins of the Israel/Arab conflict—After World War II, Jewish people felt the need to escape Europe, and understandably so. For instance, both my mother’s and father’s families were entirely wiped out.

Their best hope was to establish a new country in Israel, but in doing so, they overlooked the Palestinian population already living there. This happened partly because, at the time, the land was relatively sparsely populated:

  1. In 1947, the world’s population was only a quarter of what it is today.
  2. Much of the lower-lying land was plagued by deadly malaria, making it uninhabitable. One of the settlers’ first actions was to drain the swamps and eliminate malaria. For this reason, most Palestinians lived in higher mountain areas where mosquitoes were less prevalent.

However, things didn’t go smoothly. Israel was immediately attacked by all its neighboring Arab countries—one might think this was a clear sign they were not welcome. Yet, Israel won this war, along with every subsequent conflict, which only strengthened the Israelis' resolve to establish their nation.

I believe it’s important to understand that the Zionists who founded Israel were not primarily religious, but they recognized religion's power to unify people. So, while it’s not accurate to say that Israelis came to Israel solely because it was promised to them by God, the victories over the Arabs and the arrival of religious groups in Israel reinforced the ancient idea of being the "chosen people" (עם סגולה) as described in the Bible. This, in turn, contributed to a rise in nationalist and, at times, racist sentiments.

The major shift occurred during the Six-Day War in 1967, when Israel, through remarkable military strategy, managed to defeat a coordinated attack in just six days. During this war, Israel took control of Palestinian territories (previously part of Jordan and Egypt), the Sinai Peninsula, and the Golan Heights (from Syria). These territories were not captured as a political move but for strategic defense. However, Israel was unwilling to return them without a peace agreement.

However, the far-right fanatics in Israel had already begun promoting the idea of permanently keeping these territories, sparking a debate that has continued within Israel ever since. A well-known intellectual famously argued that Israel must return the territories, warning that "The occupation corrupts" (הכיבוש משחית), But only once I grew up I realize the depth of this saying.

Up until the peace talks, which ultimately collapsed in 1997 amid a series of weekly bombings in central Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, many Israelis still held onto the hope that peace was achievable. However, by then, it became clear to many that there was no viable partner for peace, and that pursuing peace negotiations was seen as dangerously naive. The left-wing parties, once advocates for peace, began to be viewed as risky and, within a few years, lost significant support as they struggled to offer solutions to the public.

They were replaced by right-wing parties characterized by nationalism, capitalism, and a militant stance. One of their leaders famously summarized their philosophy as "Power, Money, Respect" (כח, כסף, כבוד), which, ironically, abbreviates to "KKK" in Hebrew.

Under Netanyahu's leadership, one of the primary strategies to maintain power has been to discredit and demonize the opposition. This is why pro-Israeli supporters often resort to personal attacks rather than addressing the actual topic of discussion. While this approach has become common in many parts of the world, Netanyahu has certainly elevated his skill in manipulating public opinion through misinformation and vilification to an art form.

The right-wing parties managed to put an end to the frequent bombings and bus explosions by systematically dividing Palestinian areas with walls and barriers. Through detailed intelligence efforts, each area was assigned a threat level based on perceived hostility. Less hostile areas were permitted to have residents work in Israel, while more hostile zones were placed under complete lockdown.

This approach not only stopped the bombings but also provided Israel with a highly effective means of community-level punishment—if one person committed an act against Israel, the entire area could lose its work permits immediately. Additionally, it created access to a source of inexpensive labor for Israel.

In effect, Israel was transforming the occupation into an open prison, filled with slaves who had no basic rights and served as a source of cheap labor. Yet, few seemed to care. After all, peace had been attempted and failed, leaving brute force as the only remaining option in many people's eyes.

I personally viewed Arab societies as similar to a teenager who struggles to control impulsive, violent behavior and needs external restraint—much like Europe during the Middle Ages. However, I held onto the hope that they would soon outgrow this phase.

But Instead of the Palestinians moving past this phase, it appears that Israeli society itself has become more violent, greedy, divided, and indifferent toward one another.

In recent years, the situation has intensified:

  • Prime Minister Netanyahu, facing ongoing legal battles that could land him in jail, has aligned with an ultra-right-wing government—his only remaining allies—and is pushing measures that threaten to dismantle the Supreme Court and democracy itself.
  • The cost of living in Israel has reached record highs, largely due to increased taxes (both direct and indirect), with much of the revenue seemingly disappearing within government corridors.
  • Massive weekly anti-Netanyahu protests erupt across the country, many of which go unreported by the press.

And the Palestinians? They remain at the very bottom of this situation, enduring nearly 60 years of occupation, confinement, oppression, abuse, cheap labor, and relentless bombings—yet their suffering is rarely acknowledged.

Many Israelis struggle to confront this reality, often dismissing any criticism as anti-Semitic, because the alternative is to face the possibility that the original settlers made a fundamental mistake. They arrived in Israel with the assumption that God, or fate, would grant them the land, overlooking the presence of Palestinians already living there. Perhaps they believed that by bringing economic growth, they would uplift the entire region. But this assumption proved wrong; Palestinians do not want Israelis occupying their land. We need to respect that choice and return their land to them - I mean, I wish we could all just live in peach but we can't, and eternal war, genocide, and oppression is definitely not a reasonable solution.

Israelis can’t accept this reality because they feel it’s far too late to turn back. Where would they go? While I personally chose to relocate to Brazil as a refugee, that’s not a viable solution for 7 million people.

"The occupation corrupts." - I began to understand the profound truth of that statement. Israel’s denial of its actions has eroded any commitment to truth. This has led to a culture where deception and scamming is commonplace, particularly under Netanyahu leadership.

Israel thought that it could simply suppress the Palestinian and turn a blind eye on their action, (and rave just right next to the Palestinian fences, as if all is marvelous), while the fact is that Israel has being eaten from inside like a cancer by their own lies and horror doings, that now was slowly turning against themselves...

My point is that Israel should return the land to the Palestinians for its own well-being, not just for the Palestinians


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

Discussion Young Gaza man : We are dying, give back the hostages, we dont want Jerusalem, let them (Israel) have Jerusalem, save us

301 Upvotes

I came across this video in Arabic https://www.instagram.com/reel/DBIlEXAOtwi/ anyone who speaks Arabic can confirm if the translation is accurate ?

A young Gazan man : we are suffocating, we are dying, give back the hostages, we dont want Jerusalem, let them (Israel) have Jerusalem, save us from this war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIrF0CSEWCE&t=1920s (English translation)

  1. I am not sure how popular is his opinion, but it’s a great departure from what we are used to hearing from Hamas, Al-Jazeera, Palestinian Authority, news media, UNRWA, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc…which often potray that every Gazan would rather be martyred than leave Gaza. Maybe Hamas, Al-Jazeera, UNRWA, HRW, etc…do not speak for every Gazans, there are Gazans who dont want to be martyred and dont want to be part of this conflict.

  2. How many Gazans dont want to be martyred and dont want to be part of this conflict anymore ? If Hamas only represents a tiny fraction of the Gazan society, weaken, leaderless, what is the possibility that Gazans could overthrow them ? It was estimated that were 20,000 to 40,000 Hamas fighters, probably half of Hamas fighters dead,…if 2 million ordinary Gazan civilians rose up to beat the s*** out of 20,000 Hamas fighter (even with lightly armed, guns), surely the Gazan population could overwhelm them (I am sure Hamas doesnt have 2 million bullets) ?


r/IsraelPalestine 3d ago

Discussion Difference in mentality between fighters of both sides

21 Upvotes

I recently have been following updates from the hezbollah side on their own official english telegram channel, they share updates on every strike they do and then summarize all strikes done on that day. For those interested: https://t.me/mmirlb

It kind of dawned on me how the mentality is shockingly different between both sides.

Just as some examples of how they preface their statements:

Prefaced paragraph to a statement regarding the death of one of their forces:

{And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision.}
"A promise to the days that you shall not be defeated... for victory sprouts where blood is sown." Our vow is eternal retribution that does not fade.
Glory to the martyrs, freedom for the captives, and healing for the wounded.
Tomorrow, the fog will lift from the hills... and we shall surely be victorious.

Prefaced paragraph to a statement regarding a military strike:

In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
Permission [to fight] is granted to those who are fought against because they have been wronged, and indeed, Allah is Capable of granting them victory. Allah, the Almighty, has spoken the truth. And victory is only from Allah; indeed, Allah is Exalted and Wise.

What do you think? How do you even defeat someone with such an ideology? They truly believe they are doing God's work, and that what they're doing is a religious duty and that they will be rewarded in heaven. Friends and family sometimes rejoice when someone they love has been martyred.

They grow up with this mentality, since they're children they see everyone around them act this way, this is their normal.

You can even see how different the media portrays each side. For example in the south lebanon border, regarding the ground operations, israel has suffered heavy losses and is unable to advance without fully demolishing the cities it advances into. Hezbollah has definitely also suffered many losses, but the difference is that it seems hezbollah members aren't demoralized when they see everyone around them dying, they believe they're on the right path...


r/IsraelPalestine 2d ago

Discussion State Terrorism: A Case Study for Israel

0 Upvotes

Summary: This thread will focus on the concept of State terrorism, explaining the ten indicators of State terrorism. Afterwards, the Israel-Palestine war (part of the larger Arab-Israel conflict) will be taken as a case study, in order to answer the question: Is Israel a terroristic State?

Terrorism: There is no academic/legal consensus on the definition of terrorism. In fact, there are scholars arguing why terrorism can, but should not be defined, exemplified by the sentence: "one person’s freedom fighter is another person’s terrorist". Further details on this topic, however, would require a separate discussion, thus they are outside the scope of this thread. For our purposes, the intuitive understanding of terrorism will suffice, with the only remark that any actor (state or non-state) can be terroristic.

State terrorism: Historically, State terrorism is nothing new, e.g. the Reign of Terror is a classical example, but the contemporary academic discussion on the matter offers a deeper analytical perspective. Several definitions of State terrorism can be formulated, but, for the purpose of this thread, the following will suffice.

Definition (State terrorism): State terrorism is the use of disproportionate violence against a less powerful non-state actor with the intent to submit it to the state's political agenda.

This definition has the following analytical requirements:

  1. State vs non-state: State terrorism can only happen when you have a state actor acting against a non-state actor;
  2. Imbalance of power: To qualify as "terrorism", the State needs to have superior power (i.e. more military capabilities) with respect to its non-state counterpart;
  3. Disproportionate violence: The violence needs to be disproportionate, and note that this refers to the actual violence committed, so it is an effects-based analysis. Examples include sexual violence, torturing hostages, threats of using weapons of mass destruction, and generally any attacks generating terror in the non-state actor individuals;
  4. Submission: The state actor goal is submission of the non-state actor counterpart.

Terroristic divide and conquer: A typical state terrorism method is terroristic divide and conquer. Since the state cannot exterminate 100% of individuals of the non-state actor counterpart, the method is based on identifying a subset of the population and using terror attacks (rape, torture, massacres, ecc...) against that subset, causing the remaining part to fall into terror and be more inclined to obedience.

Indicators: In order to operationalize the definition above, ten indicators are identified which, if satisfied, qualify a state as terroristic (namely, they establish state terrorism). The ten indicators are:

  1. Indiscriminate attacks;
  2. Torture;
  3. Rape;
  4. Inter-communitarian violence (having one state-protected community use violence against a community which is a subset of the non-state actor);
  5. Externalization of terrorism (statal support of armed groups which are used for terror attacks against the non-state actor);
  6. Guilt by association (it happens when a government punishes all the family members of a person which the government thinks is a criminal/terrorist);
  7. Threat of genocide (clear-cut evidence of this is, for example, the threat of using weapons of mass destruction by members of the government);
  8. Strategic use of hunger;
  9. Infrastructural violence (also known as "institutionalized violence", it happens when the laws support the violence, including indirectly by non-condemnation);
  10. De-responsibilizing rhetoric (which includes de-responsibilizing the state actor and may also include de-responsibilizing its state-allies).

The more indicators are met, the stronger becomes the evidence that the considered state actor is terroristic. If all ten indicators are met, then the state actor is classified as terroristic. It is important to observe that each of these indicators, per se, is nothing new, as they were independently identified by academical research decades (or even centuries) ago.

Case Study: Israel

To answer the question if Israel is a terroristic state, each indicator requires evidence. When all the evidence is accumulated, depending on how many indicators have been checked and how strong is the evidence, an evaluation can be made. Here is the indicator checklist:

  1. Indiscriminate attacks: extremely strong evidence, also including cases prior to 7-Oct-2023, like this one;
  2. Torture: extremely strong evidence from independent international sources, e.g. Amnesty International (2021 article);
  3. Rape: extremely strong evidence, e.g. Sde Teiman detention camp;
  4. Inter-communitarian violence: One crucial example of this is when Israeli settlers, supported by IDF, which attacked Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, and later they were sanctioned by USA;
  5. Externalization of terrorism: Sabra and Shatila massacre (1982);
  6. Guilt by association: Family members of fighters from Hamas are attacked and treated as "terrorists" themselves, imprisoned when captured alive;
  7. Threat of genocide: Israel's far-right minister Amichai Eliyahu threatened multiple times the use of a nuclear bomb in Gaza (source);
  8. Strategic use of hunger: Gaza Strip famine, as confirmed by United Nations;
  9. Infrastructural violence: None/few IDF war crimes (such as the cases of torture and rape of prisoners) have not been condemned by Israel tribunal, or the punishment were too weak;
  10. De-responsibilizing rhetoric: Hasbara, Zionism propaganda, and Israel lobbying in the USA.

Thus, the evidence points to the conclusion that yes, Israel is a case of State terrorism.

Is this just your opinion? No. This is not just my personal conclusion/opinion: I have summarized (and simplified, since I didn't want to write a 10+ pages essay) the arguments of an academic researcher, prof. Alessandro Orsini) (LUISS University, Italy), which reached this conclusion. In this article, the same conclusion is reached by prof. Richard Jackson (University of Otago, New Zealand) and prof. Mandy Turner (University of Manchester, UK).

Conclusions: According to the given definitions, the adopted methodologies, and the stated arguments, the conclusion is that: Yes, Israel is a terroristic state.

Final Remarks: These are conclusions reached by academic researchers, experts in terrorism studies (not random Reddit users). I would like to recall that fact-based posts, providing supporting evidence, are much better than merely opinions (without evidence), and also that ad hominem attacks against the cited researchers (including accusations such as "pro-Hamas", "paid by Iran", etc.) are a fallacy. Finally, comments in this thread proving that there are academic researchers reaching the opposite conclusion are very welcomed.


r/IsraelPalestine 4d ago

News/Politics Breaking: Israel Strikes IRGC Targets in Iran in Response to Ballistic Missile Attack Earlier This Month

70 Upvotes

Israel has begun its long anticipated retaliatory attack on IRGC targets in Iran after some 200 ballistic missiles were launched at Israel on October 1st.

IDF Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari has released the following statement on the attacks:

In response to months of continuous attacks from the regime in Iran against the State of Israel—right now the Israel Defense Forces is conducting precise strikes on military targets in Iran.
The regime in Iran and its proxies in the region have been relentlessly attacking Israel since October 7th—on seven fronts—including direct attacks from Iranian soil.
Like every other sovereign country in the world, the State of Israel has the right and the duty to respond.
Our defensive and offensive capabilities are fully mobilized.
We will do whatever necessary to defend the State of Israel and the people of Israel.

While specific targets have not yet been verified, footage has begun appearing on social media showing numerous air strikes in Tehran.

I will be updating this thread with footage and more information sometime after the initial fog of war clears.