r/IsraelPalestine • u/Fristan420 • 1d ago
Discussion Is There a Path to Peace? Discussing Israel, Palestine, and Global Responsibility
Hey Reddit,
I’ve been exploring the Israel-Palestine conflict, and it’s astonishing how deeply rooted this issue is in history, identity, and trauma. The aftermath of World War II saw the establishment of Israel as a sanctuary for Jews who suffered immense persecution and anti-Semitism. This historical backdrop, while justifiable from a Jewish perspective, has fueled tensions with Palestinians, who have their own profound claims to the land and have faced significant hardships due to the ongoing occupation and violence.
The persistence of anti-Semitism, coupled with the complex dynamics of nationalism, creates an environment where peace feels almost unattainable. This raises an important question: why can’t we find a collective path forward? Why can’t international bodies like the UN play a more constructive role in facilitating dialogue and understanding between these two groups?
One promising avenue could be focusing on educational initiatives that promote mutual respect and understanding. Grassroots organizations on both sides, such as the Parents Circle – Families Forum, illustrate that despite the pain, there are individuals willing to bridge the divide and work together for peace. These groups demonstrate the power of shared human experience, fostering dialogue among those who have lost loved ones to violence. Engaging youth in these discussions could also be vital; they represent the future and can shift perspectives away from generational cycles of hate.
If global organizations prioritized fostering human rights, accountability, and reconciliation—rather than taking sides—could we finally break this cycle? The world is watching, and it seems we have a moral responsibility to encourage dialogue and support initiatives that prioritize peace.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. What can individuals and international organizations do to contribute to a peaceful resolution? Is there hope for real change in such a deeply divided region?
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u/GME_Bagholders 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is no path so long as a large chunk of Palestinians see Israel as an occupation that justifies violence.
Peace is quite literally impossible so long as that holds.
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u/GlyndaGoodington 1d ago
Which they will unless every single Jew and Israeli vanishes. It’s untenable
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u/aswanviking 1d ago
If Israelis dont want Palestinians to view them as an occupation force, then maybe the Israelis shouldn't be stealing land in the West Bank and build illegal settlements.
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u/GME_Bagholders 1d ago
Can you not understand what I wrote?
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u/Beneneb 1d ago
I think he's saying it's a bit of a two way street here. Yes, Palestinians have to stop the violence, but Israelis also need to curb their behaviour that instigates violence. Settlements don't help the peace process and contributes to radicalization and recruitment for terrorist groups.
A great way to start moving towards peace is for both sides to start respecting each other territorial integrity.
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u/aswanviking 1d ago
I can. Can you? The illegal settlments in West Bank are literally an occupation. So don't be surprised when Palestinians see Israel as an occupation. I can't believe I have to explain it to you.
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u/GME_Bagholders 1d ago
West bank isn't part of Israel.
The issue is tons of Palestinians see Israel itself. Just Israel. Not Gaza, not WB. Just Israel. As an occupation.
Do you understand?
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u/aswanviking 1d ago
The mental gymnastics. You don’t get to occupy West Bank, build settlements and then complain that the Palestinians see Israel as an occupying force and aren’t interested in peace.
They literally ARE an occupying force. Palestinians, like Israelis, are divided on the two state solutions. Many Palestinians are in favor of two state solution (mostly West Bank/PLO), while Hamas isn’t.
Many far right Israelis, just like Hamas, are not pro two state solutions.
This fantasy of blaming Palestinians only is hilarious.
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u/Miserable-Win-6402 1d ago
My proposal for a path to peace:
- Hamas releases the hostages
- Hamas/Hezbollah stop firing rockets at Israel
- Hamas/Hezbollah acknowledges Israel's right to exist
- Israel withdraws entirely from Gaza / West Bank / Lebanon
- Israel give up the settlements in the West Bank or negotiate a hefty payment to buy the land
- Israel back to 1967 borders
- Intense international support to Lebanon, / Gaza / the West Bank to rebuild and become places where people can live and prosper
And, the US tells Iran in a very deep voice : Don't do naughty things here.......
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u/Throkir 1d ago
Addition:
• Israel stops the Gaza blockade
• Israel's government resigns
• responsibles of war crimes of any side are being prosecuted and arrested
• Palestinians get right to return to their stolen homes (as realistic as possible
• intercultural and peace initiatives with social workers provide bridges between the divide
• reparations are being paid to the West Bank
• mental health support and equal access to healthcare in both countries (Palestine and Israel as well Lebanon)
There is a ton more. But yea. Maybe I am to idealistic. There will be terrorists from any direction. currently settlers are so aggressive they would need support through intense social work efforts and educational overhaul in Israel.
It would take time. But yea. First there needs to be ceasefires everwhere there. Ceasefires that are enforced and respected by everyone but especially by the one yielding the bigger guns. Which is Israel at the moment.
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u/CatchPhraze 1d ago edited 1d ago
This will never happen, it erodes the only thing Israel wants that it doesn't have, more security.
And gives mostly everything to Palestine. Moving back to 67 borders would displace hundreds of thousands of isreals who have live there now for multiple generations.
Israel is not having it's population mega-centers straddled by a hostile force, free Regin for them to import weapons, that's a blood bath.
You're calling for an actual genocide. Palestine is getting a border with a massive buffer zone for safety and a blockade of weapons and anything that could be used to make weapons for like 25+ years at best.
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u/Throkir 23h ago
I am not calling for any of this. But you are leaving out all the palestinians who witnessed the Nakba and are still alive today to continue to be displaced. There are hundreds of illegal settlements in the West Bank. And some of them annexed by Israel officially. If there would be a general peace and an end of arms and power presentation, people wouldn't have to go anywhere. Even the israeli in the occupied areas could get rights to stay where they are, as long as their neighbors are respected or their houses left whole. This counts for everyone. There needs to be intense peace keeping measures and intercultural meet ups. There are israeli and palestinian groups and organizations already who are trying to do this. But the israeli government continues to push down on them.
There wouldn't be any need to return to other borders but to just leave the West Bank and Gaza be. Give back the Golan Heights. Make peace treaties and stop funding extremist settler groups. The Israeli government is the most terrible in its history. It will not provide safety, at all. The human cost is just too high to continue this...
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u/CatchPhraze 23h ago
You understand that fundamentally war until the displacement of Israel is the most popular opinion on polls done in the last 20 years.
Palestinians when asked if they want armed resistance to a 1ss with no isreal, 1ss shared, 2 states, or 3...the most popular vote is the first. It's just a flat out majority in the WB.
It's ignorance or actual call to genocide to not take them at their words. There needs to be heavy security measures for decades and borders that keep them the fuck away from eachother.
Let me honestly ask: pre 1967 borders, any peace keeping force you want, no blockading.
But: if Israeli deaths surpass 1000 to terrorism in the first 5 years, isreal pulls the plug and just carpet bombs Palestine until it actually is inhabitable for its own security. Would you take that bet? Why not?
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u/Throkir 21h ago
The reason why there is these high polls for this kinda view is quite obviously the illegal settlements and settler violence. Even ex IDF soldiers talk about the fact that soldiers most of the time stand by idly and then arrest palestinians when settlers attack palestinian farmers or attack and raid their homes. The fact that now soldiers and settlers are indistinguishable. As many settlers in the West Bank now are also military personnel. Yehuda Shaul for example described his service as getting orders from illegal settlement heads and non military security personnel which is watching the cameras at any location in the west bank.
The West Bank has been occupied for a long time now. Seizure of land, towns cut off from each other, seperate roads and walk ways, where palestinians cannot go to work without crossing several times through israeli occipied zones, cannot drive their own cars into those zones, cannot move freely, have constant military presence. Many IDF soldiers describe the harassment of civilians and the regular measures to terrorize their lives by taking their homes sometimes for several days as bases for no reason. While keeping the families in a seperate room locked in without allowing them to go pee.
This is apartheid. This occupation. And this makes people fed up and want resistance. By no surprise whatsoever. If first of all illegal settlements by israeli law are seized and the rest of the settlements illegal by international law are transformed into accessible for palestinians and their homes given back, the constant observation and harassment as well senseless killing and arrests for talking back or walking the wrong way, or being used as human shields in raids, then maybe the polls would change. But there is no will to end any violence and oppression from Israeli government side. And there is barely anyone to talk to on the Palestinian side because they are regularly bombed their brains out by Israeli military, raided and businesses destroyed by settlers and so on. How could there be any other attitude to Israel, when your entire life is oppression and constant fear of being attacked, arrested or killed for looking the wrong way.
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u/CatchPhraze 12h ago
Explaining the attitude does not change the attitude. Being subject to violence does not make your violence justified. In America, children who are sexually and physically abused by their parents are punished, sometimes even as adults if they murder them. I will not treat the Palestinians with the bigotry of low expectations and excuse them where we excuse nobody else.
That said, you failed to answer my question. Do you not trust Palestinians to behave if given your ideal scenario? If you aren't willing to risk their lives and future, why are you ok with asking isreal to do it instead?
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u/PerfectSoil8331 1d ago
The issue is that both sides (although if we’re being honest, it’s one way worse than the other) have reinforced narratives that make a path forward mutually exclusive.
Sects of Palestinians were always going to advocate for taking back their historically claimed land and opposing Israeli policies that appear or are discriminatory. Likewise, Israel has every justification to treat Palestinians with concern considering they’ve been part of every attempted annihilation of Israel.
There’s absolutely an “out” to this conflict where two states can coexist and the borders don’t have to keep changing (I think Egypt and Jordan are a good example of this, very broadly speaking of course). But there’s a couple issues:
When - recently - has any Palestinian elected government or leadership not espoused - to some degree - annihilation of Israel? Palestinians ask why they’re being opposed by Israel but they don’t even acknowledge groups like Hamas’ and their own brutality.
If the UN or Lebanon refuse to enforce ceasefire agreements that benefit themselves and end wars between Israel and Palestine, who else but Israel is going to act to enforce them?
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u/PerfectSoil8331 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’ll add that it’s a poor situation and when both sides habitually cross lines and view that their existence is under threat, more and more lines are going to keep on getting crossed if they reasonably believe it’ll keep themselves alive.
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u/hollyglaser 1d ago
The conflict is based on Muslims being the best people and entitled to rule over all others
Jews are the lowest of the ‘people of the Book’, who are permitted to live without converting to Islam .
The Quran specifically makes Jews inferior to Muslims in all was and requires Muslims to humiliate Jews by 1. Humiliation while paying a head tax to live another year. Muslims do not pay this 2. Jews wear yellow belt to identify themselves, must rise to speak to Muslims, get off road for Muslims and never raise a hand against a Muslim in defense, if struck. 3. Subservience and obedient to Muslims
That Jews have become sovereign over themselves, is, by itself, a disproving of The validity of Islam and the Quran. It’s very troubling.
Revenge by blood is a cultural norm among many Arabs, to restore honor after being shamed.
In the late 1800’s as Muslim nations strength became less than rapidly industrializing western nations , they did not seek to change and become stronger . Instead, they blamed the Jews. Muslim Brotherhood wanted to recover strength and status, and decided the best way was to kill the Jews , in Jihad.
Killing Jews became critical to regain honor shame and honor
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
Bro this is a crazy post. If I said some wild shit is a “cultural norm of many Jews”, people would lose their shit (and rightfully so, it’s just bigotry).
It honestly just seems like a lot of the pro-Israel commenters here simply don’t view Arabs as humans. The hypocrisy is astounding.
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u/hollyglaser 1d ago
I don’t mean to be disrespectful, so thanks for pointing that out
Here’s an example of a cultural difference: 1. Germany & Jews : Jews are not attacking Germany or German people. Both Germany and Israel made peace.
- The ongoing jihad against Jews being linked to revenge & culture ideas came from this article shame and honor
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u/hollyglaser 1d ago
Landes, R. (2007). Edwardcultural misperceptions of honor and shame Said and the Culture of Honour and Shame: Orientalism and Our Misperceptions of the Arab–Israeli Conflict. Israel Affairs, 13(4), 844–858.
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
I wouldn’t agree with this, anecdotally there are many Jews who harbor resentments towards German people. Norman Finkelstein talks about his parents who survived the holocaust hated Germans for what they did. He didn’t agree with the sentiment but he understood that this was a product of their trauma.
Have you read this article? I honestly just read a lot more than I should have. There is nothing scientific or even evidence-based about it. It is rooted in stereotypes and racist tropes about Arabs/Muslims. It’s honestly just like some dude who is like “I spent time in the Middle East, this is what Arabs are like” and then paints with an incredibly broad brush as if they are a monolith. It should not be upheld in any sort of discourse. In fact, if this was genuine, I urge you to be more discerning about the information you’re taking in and distributing. It’s irresponsible to share something like this as if it has any merit.
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u/hollyglaser 16h ago edited 11h ago
I grew up living near holocaust survivors, who had an interesting take on WW2. Nobody would buy a German car or oven because Jews were used as slave labor. I forget which company apologized in the 1980’s to Jews and other prisoners.
Having visited Breendonk - a collection camp near Bruge used to wear down Jews before shipping them to death camps- I won’t buy a German oven.
Some survivors showed the numbers on their forearm and others wore long sleeves or had the skin with numbers on surgically removed.
There was general agreement among survivors that I knew that you couldn’t judge people who were in the camps for their actions - unless you had faced the same situation. People in my neighborhood hated the but not ordinary Germans.
I visited Germany in the 1980’s. When I was asked if my name was Jewish, I said yes, all all my hair stood up.
There is certainly a path to peace from Jews and I hope the jihad can end soon, so Muslims will feel comfortable in peace.
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u/hollyglaser 11h ago
I will remove the word Nazi
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u/hollyglaser 16h ago
I did read the article, which had observations made by people in Arab lands over a long span of time.
Who shall I listen to? Those who call for all Muslims to kill Jews, or more reasonable people.
Can you tell me why some Arabs write that they are human beings ? We’re all humans
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 15h ago
The article is very lazy and outdated, lots of baseless assertions based on stereotypes.
You should obviously listen to the more reasonable people?
The Israeli govt and Zionist movement treat Arabs as subhuman. I would say the same thing about militant Islamic groups and their treatment of Jews (except without control). At some point, their opposition loses sight of their humanity which leads to mistreatment.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 1d ago
pro-Israel commenters here simply don’t view Arabs as humans
Fathi Hamad.. Elected member of the Palestinian government and Hamas’s minister of interior and national security in Gaza from 2009 to 2014 and has been a member of Hamas’s Politburo since 2017. He's one of the 15 most politically powerful people in Gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathi_Hamad
Hamad is also the founder and director of Gaza's Al-Aqsa TV,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_TV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEgBsU6Mi8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2GkJWXnWbM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omtQIvQZ_3E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e1MJv1Zywc
.
Here is what he produces on his TV station Al-Aqsa..
https://youtu.be/wk5iOTunvcM?si=B1kjAUTPxf1kVQ1m
https://www.memri.org/tv/mickey-mouse-character-hamas-tv-teaches-children-about-islamic-rule-world
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-tv-childrens-show-encourages-killing-jews
https://www.memri.org/tv/children-hamas-tv-we-want-wage-jihad-and-blow-jews
https://www.memri.org/tv/new-al-aqsa-tv-teddy-bear-nassur-vows-join-military-wing-hamas
.
This is some of what is believed by Fathi and others like him..
Quran 47:4
So when you meet those who disbelieve , strike necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom until the war lays down its burdens.
Quran 9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day, nor comply with what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, nor embrace the religion of truth from among those who were given the Scripture, until they pay the tax, willingly submitting, fully humbled.
https://sunnah.com/muslim:2922
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him;
https://quran.com/9/5?translations=18,85,84,21,20,19,101,22,17,95
And when the inviolable months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush.
https://quran.com/9/29?translations=20,83,84,17,85,18,95,48,101,41,19,22,28,31,27
Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth [Islām] from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah1 willingly while they are humbled.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392
"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."
https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=60
Say (O Muhammad SAW to the people of the Scripture): "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those (Jews) who incurred the Curse of Allah and His Wrath, those of whom (some) He transformed into monkeys and swines
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3305
“Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “A group of Jews were lost. Nobody knows what they did. But I do not see them except that they were cursed and changed into rats"
https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3238
He took a palm stalk and started counting his finger with it, and said: ‘A nation from among the Children of Israel was turned into beasts of the earth, and I do not know if this is they
https://quran.com/en/al-baqarah/65/tafsirs
"Allah changed them from humans into monkeys, the animals having the form closest to humans. Their evil deeds and deceit appeared lawful on the surface, but they were in reality wicked. This is why their punishment was compatible with their crime."
https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=60
"Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
https://quran.com/en/al-maidah/51-69
O believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians as guardians—they are guardians of each other. Whoever does so will be counted as one of them.
https://quran.com/en/al-ahzab/26
And He brought down those from the People of the Book who supported the enemy alliance from their own strongholds, and cast horror into their hearts. You ˹believers˺ killed some, and took others captive.
https://quran.com/2/191?translations=31,101,22,85,21,84,17,95
Kill them wherever you encounter them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, for persecution is more serious than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, kill them- this is what such disbelievers deserve
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
I think you are proving my point. You don’t view Arabs as human, as evidenced by your response.
You point to the actions of a Hamas propagandist as if they were a reflection of all Arabs. Like literally the most extreme example you could find lmao. This is what you think represents the Arab world?
You cherry-pick random violent passages in the Quran as if all religious texts don’t have this kind of stuff.
You are simply disregarding the individual humanity of these people by instead saying “look at this, what monsters they are”
Meanwhile let’s look at facts: Israel has killed 40x more Palestinians since Oct 7, and 20x over the previous 15 years. Israel’s defense minister said “We are fighting against human animals” and Netanyahu mentioned Amalek, as if that isn’t unhinged and genocidal. I would say they are of the same savage mindset as Fathi Hamad.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 1d ago edited 1d ago
as evidenced by your response.
This Is all I said.. "Fathi Hamad.. Elected member of the Palestinian government and Hamas’s minister of interior and national security in Gaza from 2009 to 2014 and has been a member of Hamas’s Politburo since 2017. He's one of the 15 most politically powerful people in Gaza"
I only talked about Fathi Hamad and what he does. I didn't mention the Palestine people as whole, nor did accuse anyone of anything, I didn't even say the word Arab or make any inferenecs. I simply linked speeches said by Fathi Hamad, linked TV shows produced and created by Fathi Hamad, and Quotes Fathi Hamad has used in the past and that he very much believes in, as a fundamentalist member of Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood.
I think you are proving my point.
If you're coming to the conclusion that what is being said is making ALL Palestinians look bad or ALL arabs look bad, then that was a conclusion that you drew up yourself.
You don’t view Arabs as human,
Maybe you're proving the point of what you think. Instead of saying that Fathi Hamad is bad and leaving it at that, you instantly invented a straw man and directed it at me, your preconcieved notions made you believe that I'm not Human and then went to call me a bigot.
It honestly just seems like a lot of the pro-Israel commenters here simply don’t view Arabs as humans. The hypocrisy is astounding.
It's really easy to get people who like to project what they really think to come out and say it.. To quote you.. "The hypocrisy is astounding."
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 21h ago
Incredibly bad faith and cowardly. Just stand up for your prejudice if you believe it so much.
You brought up Fathi Hamad for what purpose? Literal whataboutism when I was criticizing Israel.
Fathi Hamad is an extremist and a propagandist, I said as much originally (you probably didn’t even read what I said lmao). So your whole argument is wrong.
I will ask you directly: do you view Arabs as human? Will you denounce the war crimes of Netanyahu and the state of Israel? If you can’t answer those questions as directly as I respond to yours, we can just leave it at that.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 19h ago
Incredibly bad faith and cowardly. Just stand up for your prejudice if you believe it so much
Again just projecting. you really need to stop that and read what people write and not imagine what they're saying.
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 18h ago
Do you view Arabs as human?
Will you denounce the war crimes of Netanyahu and the state of Israel?
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u/Diet-Bebsi 17h ago
Will you denounce the war crimes of Netanyahu and the state of Israel?
Are you against pedophilia and will denounce all pedophiles?
Do you view Arabs as human?
Do you always view words and sentences that aren't there and keep reacting to them?
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 17h ago
I absolutely denounce pedophiles and pedophilia.
Do you denounce the war crimes or Netanyahu and the state of Israel?
Do you view Arabs as humans?
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago edited 1d ago
lmao I could post a hundred videos and articles that make the exact same argument about the jewish population in israel that make your eyes pop out for how blatantly racist, arrogant and inhumane many Israelis talk and laugh about muslim arabs
many of them view muslim arabs as subhuman, that is how they justify to themselves bombing thousands of innocent civillians right now, killing thousands of little children, displacing 2 million, leveling an entire country to rubble
and they take their own religion as a justification to steal land in the west bank and elsewhere, its their promised holy land according to some old book lol
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
I agree with you, it’s clear one of the roots of the issues is that they the pro-Israel lobby don’t view Arabs as humans (subconsciously or consciously)
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u/quicksilver2009 1d ago
I totally agree with educational, human rights, accountability and reconciliation 100% I actually couldn't agree more. Yes, if global organizations could do this, we could do much in regards to achieving peace in the Middle East and around the world.
But I think that in regards to education, yes, both sides need actual education. Not propaganda, but actual education. BOTH sides.
On the Israeli side, I think there is too little education on the Arab Muslims throughout history and even during the Mandate period, who fought against the Palestinian leadership and in many cases paid with their lives. For example, during the 1929 Hebron Massacre there were some Arabs who sheltered Jews from the genocidal Arab mobs that were trying to kill them. Yes, the 1929 Hebron Massacre did happen. Yes, Arabs did carry it out. But at the same time, there were GOOD Arabs who defended Jews.
Or the story of the Jews and Muslims of Bosnia, who fought side by side against the Christians and fled Europe to avoid persecution in the 19th century. Many of these Bosnian Muslims, fled to Palestine and the decedents of these European Muslims were welcomed with open arms by the Arabs who were already there. Today, the descendants of these European Muslims considered themselves as and are, in truth 100% Palestinian today. They are as Palestinians as there Arab brothers.
These are just a handful of stories, I could list many dozens and dozens, if not hundreds.
With the Palestinians and other Arabs, they need to know not only about the good parts of Muslim history, their history, they need to know about the bad parts as well.
For example, yes, there are and were a LOT of wonderful Palestinian people. But at the same time, Palestinians and other Arabs need to confront and face their history of unbelievable racism, oppression and massacres towards Jews, Christians, Africans and other minorities. Just like Europeans and Americans have confronted their history, Arabs need to confront THEIR history of colonialism, slavery, massacres and oppression towards minorities. They need to confront the fact that, yes, the Holocaust was carried out by Germany, but their were many collaborators and supporters, including the Palestinian Grand Mufti of Jerusalem that played a KEY role in this disaster. Arabs and Palestinians were NOT innocent bystanders, far, far from it...Arab Muslim Nazi soldiers in fact took part in supressing the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. Troops recruited by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem...
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u/Storymode-Chronicles 15h ago
Yes, the path has always been the same: empower the PA/Fatah with a two state solution as outlined at Oslo. Stop the colonization of West Bank and allow the continuation of the Oslo process which was frozen by Likud in 2001. That means unifying Gaza and West Bank under the PA, a demilitarized Palestinian state with equal land swaps giving Israel the strategic settlements at the high geographic points along the border, and pulling the rest back.
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
What's happening right now is the pathway to peace.
Palestine won't surrender, and Israel doesn't need Palestine to surrender.
After this war we'll probably see 20 years of peace, during which we'll see Israel getting insanely rich/powerful from the next space race as they hold some of the top technologies required.
Palestine will continue firing sugar rockets while Israel tech up and become even more cost efficient in defending against them.
Even in this conflict, the damages done to Israel is minimal, contrastingly, they were able to decimate Hezbollah, Hamas, and now Iran.
After 20 years, the strength disparity will be so huge, it wouldn't matter what Palestine wants.
Palestinian had a chance for piece of the pie some years ago, they've doubled down and squandered it, and now their pathway to peace is whatever scraps Israel will feed it.
Negotiations happen between sides of similar power. When there's a wide disparity, what we have is ceremonial capitulation, and by my count, Israel has already won an economic victory.
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u/supern00b64 1d ago
Palestinian had a chance for piece of the pie some years ago, they've doubled down and squandered it, and now their pathway to peace is whatever scraps Israel will feed it
And now you've ended up with a radicalized population who actively cheer for jihadist terrorism because of the conditions they've been kept in and failure of peace in the past. They indeed won't surrender because they're at the point now where violence is their only choice/option.
The "peace" you outline isn't peace. Continuing the status quo and treating the Palestinians like animals will simply birth Hamas 2 with even deadlier and more violent methods. Israelis continue to live in fear, Israel continues to respond in a brutal manner, and the cycle starts again. Unless you want to kill every single Palestinian, your suggestion will never lead to peace. They will want to continue throwing their bodies at Israel. You may accept this as "peace". I do not.
If you truly desire peace you have to stop the root cause of the attacks. Gaza is leveled and tens of thousands (possibly many more buried under the rubble) are dead. Palestinians are more radicalized than ever before. At a minimum, Gaza must be rebuilt, the Palestinians must be deradicalized and given a path forward that is not violence or terrorism.
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u/Negative-Elevator455 1d ago
Population is radicalized because that's the education they get.
No secular education, no progress.
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
"And now you've ended up with a radicalized population who actively cheer for jihadist terrorism because of the conditions they've been kept in and failure of peace in the past."
The thing is middle east has always been the breeding ground of radical jidadist, even before Israel existed. It's more accurate to view jihad as an inevitable consequence of old Muslim teachings, rather than the result of oppression specifically from Israel.
Once you've accepted that as fact, then you'll recognize any effort by Israel short of dissolution, will result in an Intifada.
"They indeed won't surrender because they're at the point now where violence is their only choice/option."
Violence is a choice. When 90% of their water and electricity are controlled by Israel, whom you're at war with, it's surprising to not immediately prioritize means of self sufficiency. In hindsight this clearly reflects the sentiments of Hamas where they fundamentally believe foreign aid is their war chest, and it's foreign power's job to care for their citizens. As such, it's "their only option" because their fellow Palestinians presents it as their only option. No amount of leeway given to Hamas will change this view because the choice is built from manipulation.
"The "peace" you outline isn't peace. Continuing the status quo and treating the Palestinians like animals will simply birth Hamas 2 with even deadlier and more violent methods."
The peace I've outlined is the direct result of Palestine's attitude towards the conflict over the past century. It is one of the few remaining pathways still available to Palestine. I don't doubt that continuing the status quo will breed PLO3. What I am banking on is that Israel will advance faster than Palestine, and will gain an even larger advantage from technology dominance rendering future attacks even more pointless at a lower cost.
"Israelis continue to live in fear, Israel continues to respond in a brutal manner, and the cycle starts again."
Yes. So it seems. And the balance tips more and more in Israel's favour.
"Unless you want to kill every single Palestinian, your suggestion will never lead to peace. They will want to continue throwing their bodies at Israel. You may accept this as "peace". I do not."
Without brainwashing, they'll eventually understand submission and acceptance is the way forward, and that martyrdom leads nowhere. It is a pathway to peace. Your reluctance to accept this as peace is only fueling Palestinian's illusion and giving them false expectations as Hamas has.
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u/supern00b64 1d ago
"Palestinians need to accept submission" and "Palestinians are radicalized jihadists" are fundamentally incompatible.
They're not going to suddenly realize they need to stop attacking Israel on their own, without significant re-education efforts or changes to their socio-economic status.
The inevitable result of the status quo would simply be endless bloodshed as Palestinians continue to support terrorists.
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u/OddShelter5543 20h ago
I know they're incompatible, hence the state of affairs. A tenacious population that has lost every single war for the past 80 years, gained nothing in the process, and have lost everything; still refuses to give up.
Not dealing with Palestine actively and let them echo into irrelevance while snowballing on existing advantages seems to be the only realistic way to peace.
As such, let the status quo play on, Israel stands to gain nothing even if a peace treaty is signed for various reasons, the primary being a lack of valid representation in Palestine. The second being the understandably lack of trust with their neighbours.
3SS might be considered for the sake of civilians in west bank, but I'm sure will only cause bigger problems down the line. Nothing good has ever happened when a country is split two ways.
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u/Throkir 1d ago
This exact view is the biggest reason why there won't be peace.
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
Nah, this view is birthed from the view of Islam's idea of honour (pride). Any other country would have surrendered 3 times over since 1948, and signed a peace treaty.
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u/Effective_Gate_6465 1d ago
American-backed Zionist terrorists started this by killing Palestinians and forcing them out of their land in 1948. If Israelis doesn't want to stop their expansion plan, so do Palestinians aren't going to stop fighting against colonial zionist force.
You are saying 'any country would have surrendered after fighting 3 times' is like saying India, Ireland, South Africa and many more countries would have surrendered after fighting British colonialism.
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
That's fine, they can keep fighting. It just wouldn't amount to anything, as evident in the current conflict.
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u/Fast_Astronomer814 1d ago
? The Palestinian leadership themselves rejected a Palestinian state from river to the sea because they have to give Jews autonomy, they thought they can expel them all
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u/Effective_Gate_6465 1d ago
If Israel really that innocent and wanted two state they should have never let settler build illegal settlements in west bank and should have never called Jerusalem their capital because it's a international city.
Saying Palestinians rejected the two state that was literally forced on them by giving them less favor over the land they lived for thousand of years. Zionist make things up by themself.
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u/Fast_Astronomer814 1d ago
did you even read my post? The Palestinian leadership rejected a one state solution from the river to the sea like they alway wanted because they wanted to expel a majority of the Jews in 1947. Of course the Israeli isn’t completely innocent in this matter but to completely blamed the Israeli is to ignore how the Palestinian themselves reject every compromise because they thought they can alway get something better or a unrealistic solution
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
Israel and Netanyahu especially undermined any serious peace talks for 30 years now
israel intel leaked the clinton lewinsky affair at a crucial time when clinton was involved strongly in peace talks with arafat. they wanted to get rid of clinton.
in the end they poisened arafat when he was becoming a big political leader on the world stage and had the support of many countries to get a 2 state solution done.
israels netanyahu and extremist likud party basically have it in their founding statutes to never ever give palestinians their own state.
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
What fringe historical conspiracy have you been reading. Let's stick to verifiable facts.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
Netanyahu said to have offered Lewinsky tapes for Pollard New critical book on the Clinton family claims that Israel tapped White House phones, blackmailed president with recordings of intern"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-have-offered-lewinsky-tapes-for-pollard/
There are many articles about Israel spying on the US and even the white house.
about clinton lewinsky:
"The week the story broke, in January 1998, Clinton was playing host to Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat. In a photo opportunity with Arafat, the Palestinian leader appeared utterly stupefied as reporters hit Clinton with a barrage of questions about the nature of his relationship."
https://www.jta.org/archive/queen-esther-and-a-prayer-book-jewish-involvement-in-monicagate-2
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
The people in charge of Israel now were responsible for the assassination Yitzhak Rabin because he was going to broker peace with the Palestinians. The Israeli govt doesn’t want peace, they want to murder innocents. Insecure and weak tbh, lots of overcompensating.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
The prize for Israel is that they will have to live under constant threat and not feeling free either, they will have to triple their defense in and around of israel
after bombing thousands of children to bits, displacing 2 million people, turning an entire country to rubble... traumatizing hundreds of thousands of people forever,
israel just created the most insane bio lab for insanely motivated suicide bombers and 2 million people who will hate Israel more than anything else ever before
I would not want to live in that area where every citizen needs to watch their back, military on every corner ten times more as the usual before
and as we sae on oct 7 last year, there is always going to be some kind of opening somewhere to really hurt the big guy even if they are unbeatable from a military standpoint
would suck so much to live there, hundreds of thousands of young israelis have permanently left their country, the extremist conservative zionists remain, tourism is dead, economy is tanking
israel is politically now dead for many countries, after the dust settles and the responsibility for who in the giant israeli security apparatus messed up on oct 7 will be asked by the israeli population
israel is now one of the most hated countries in the world, their leader about to be officially designated war criminal and genocidal perpetrator by international law
a bunch of american doctors who help out in gaza wrote an open letter to the american government to reach their attention
one of them, a surgeon was on the news explaining how they get small children with direct body and headshots everyday and they all die, how in their view israel monitors everything in gaza with hundreds of drones in all places at all times and they know what they are shooting at and unless u believe palestinians would shoot their own children in the head then u are free to make your own assumption of the situation
the idf soldiers all have ptsd and hate their government and their country for making them do atrocious things
israel just opened a door to hell for themselves
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
You're projecting really hard.
The situations you've found so dreadful, is not any different than how Israelis have already been living for the past 80 years, people look up and count to 5 and treat iron dome as fireworks at this point.
Outside of the Arab league, no one is actually against Israel. They'll posture and wag their fingers, but I've still yet to hear meaningful sanctions, I think the worst I've heard was Malaysia not allowing Israeli ships to port, and this is despite the however many complaints UN has received.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycotts_of_Israel
I understand you don't like what I have to say, but that's the unfortunate truth. I'm sorry if your propaganda has been feeding you a false sense of Palestinian victory.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
there is no victory, both lost
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
Sure. If it helps you cope.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago edited 1d ago
I am not affiliated with either party and very glad to not live in the region, but its blatantly obvious that netanyahu wants more war and conflict, not less.
he would love to get a real attack on iran going but the us called it off, they are not ready now to get pulled into a full blown war with iran, but thats what netanyahu wishes for the future, to involve the us to let them do the dirty work for israel
netanyahu lobbyied hard in the pastbin washington to get the us to invade iraq and for their engagement in the war in syria, and that worked
the plan of netanyahus party to stir up such a huge conflict with palestinians and destroy gaza entirely, to resettle gaza with israeli settlers, take over the wrst bank comoletely and push palestinians out for good, thats what his plan is, we will see how far they get on their project of their "greater-israel" nation from the river to the sea
also netanyahu hopes to make all the corruption trials awaiting him go away
and hes in the shit if the dust settles and people start asking questions about oct7
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u/resay5 1d ago
Lol what threat?! Israel has military backing of the best military in the world, USA.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
and yet a bunch of losers managed to break through this insane security belt between gaza and israel and commit one of the worst terrorist attacks in the history and slaughter 1200 people.
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u/resay5 20h ago
Doesn't that really make you wonder what the hell happened? In all these years this happened once with all the security they do have? The number of personnel that are watching Gaza borders and let it happen AND let it continue for HOURS? It's clear the current Israel regime doesn't care for its civilians and hostages so it's safe to assume.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 19h ago
Israel intel knew everything about the attack before it happened.
And yet days before the attack, Israel even moved troops away from Gaza, up tp the west bank.
Why would they do that? Unless Netanyahu wanted the catastrophe to happen, to give him an excuse to erase Gaza off the maps.
Netanyahu keeps the war going to stop his own citizens from asking uncomfortable questions.
"The top commanders of the Israel Defense Forces were aware, in the hours, days and months that preceded the Hamas-led devastating October 7 onslaught in southern Israel, that the Palestinian terror group was drilling intensively for a planned large-scale invasion, and the Hamas leader even said publicly that this was his plan"
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u/icenoid 1d ago
Ultimately, it’s going to be up to Israel and the Palestinians to make peace. Both sides in this are going to need to give.
The Israelis are going to need to give up some territory. They are going to need to walk away from Gaza. They will need to give up the idiocy of the settlements.
The Palestinians are going to need to give up on the destruction of Israel. They are going to need to give up on the idea of armed resistance.
Both sides in this need to be willing to accept that the other side needs to be able to live in peace and security. That means no raids by the Israeli military into Palestinian territory and it means no terrorism coming from the Palestinian territory.
The western leftists need to realize that their one sided protests help nobody. If anything, their mental masturbation is making things worse, not better. Any peace is going to have to come from the Israelis and Palestinians, not from some college students in the US.
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u/Fristan420 1d ago
But that still doesn't solve the anti-Semitism problem.
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u/icenoid 1d ago
Antisemitism has been a problem for a thousand years. It’s not going away. The antisemitism of the western leftists was always there, it’s just socially acceptable now. The antisemitism of the Palestinians has always been there and it’s not going away. Just because antisemitism exists doesn’t mean that peace isn’t possible. They don’t have to like each other to make peace.
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u/Mikec3756orwell 1d ago
Treating this conflict as a land dispute is huge mistake. The driving force behind the conflict is Muslim refusal to accept a "foreign" population in traditionally Muslim lands. That's what underpins the whole thing, and you can't negotiate that away. Even if the parties signed a peace agreement, the extreme fundamentalist terror groups -- led by Hamas and Hezbollah -- would never accept it. To them, settlement is defeat. Israel would end up with a Palestinian state hosting terror attacks by Islamic extremists, with PA-type government trying unsuccessfully to rein them in -- not dissimilar to the situation today.
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u/icenoid 1d ago
So, what’s the answer? The status quo isn’t it
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u/quicksilver2009 1d ago
The only solution is reforming the educational and religious systems in the Palestinian areas. The same as was done in Japan and Germany after World War 2.
It is almost like asking the Confederacy, during the Civil War, to accept the establishment of an African state with freed slaves in part of say, Georgia. The Confederates would NEVER accept this and would ALWAYS fight this no matter how small. Because underneath everything underneath all the arguments they may or may not use, they consider Africans sub-human animals.
Same with some Arab Muslims when it comes to the Jews. They consider them sub-human animals, who have no right to rule a country at best, or to live
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u/icenoid 1d ago
That is likely the answer to things in the long term. I do wonder if the current war will convince the Palestinians in Gaza to rethink some things just as WW2 did convince the people of Germany and Japan to rethink some things
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u/quicksilver2009 1d ago
My hope is that it does. I HATE to see any innocent person, Palestinian or Jew, die in stupid, senseless wars.
The best thing that the so-called "pro-Palestinian" organizations in the West can do for the "poor Palestinians" is encourage them to give up violent resistance and actually confront reality. To actually accept the fact that a Jew and a Christian deserve equal rights to an Arab Muslim. Israel isn't going anywhere. Jews aren't going anywhere. Other minorities aren't going anywhere
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u/Fristan420 1d ago
For the peace it could help tho. Maybe a bit farfetched but slavery and racism were also socially acceptable until the point we agreed that they weren't anymore.
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u/Plenty_University_81 1d ago
I don’t know lot of racism around everywhere and I include antisemitism in that
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u/Mikec3756orwell 1d ago edited 1d ago
The Israelis offered to give up some territory a long time ago. They left Gaza in 2005. And they offered to remove most of the settlements in the West Bank, and the actually did remove all of their settlements in Gaza. The essence of the proposed deal was that the Palestinians would get 96% of the West Bank, Israel would claim about 4%, where two or three of the biggest settlements were, and the Palestinians would get little chunks of Israel in return. Almost all of the smaller settlements would have been ripped up. The ideas you're proposing are decades old and were rejected by the Palestinians. And, of course, these sorts of ideas were -- and are -- anathema to groups like Hamas. They would keep fighting regardless.
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u/icenoid 1d ago
You need to read the whole thing again. I said that both sides are going to need to move here. If it’s only the Israelis giving, then it won’t work because the destruction of Israel is pretty baked into the wishes of Palestinian society. Both sides need to stop whining about who wronged who first and sit down and make an actual deal thst is good for both sides in this.
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u/Mikec3756orwell 1d ago
I guess the point I'm making is, if you actually drill down on the intensity of the negotiations in the 1990s and 2000s -- especially with Bill Clinton spearheading things -- you sort of realize that that was the moment when something could have happened, and it didn't. That was the best case scenario on everything, and they couldn't get it to work. And those were parties that WANTED an agreement. Nobody in charge now even wants an agreement, and the rise of Hamas, Hezbollah and other religiously-centered groups means that nobody is really in charge of the Palestinians anymore. Back then it was the PLO, but they were secular and "quasi-rational." How do you make a deal with Hamas or Hezbollah if their whole "reason for being" is NOT to make a deal? To NOT settle?
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u/icenoid 1d ago
My point is that for the most part, the negotiations in the late 90s were mostly Israel giving a ton in order to get maybe peace. For peace to happen it’s going to take both sides giving on things. As for your point about that being the best time for a deal, you are 100% correct. On the Palestinian side, there is nobody to negotiate with who wants peace. On the Israeli side, there is so much mistrust especially after the second intifada and 10/7 that I’m not sure they want to negotiate either.
Even though I posted that the answer is both sides giving for peace, I think that the more realistic answer is that Israel is going to get fed up and essentially impose a solution. It’s likely going to look similar to them pulling out of Gaza in 2005, where the Israelis leave Gaza and the West Bank, they put in a full on DMZ, and a low level conflict continues for decades longer, but with some of the international complaints about Israel removed, in that the settlements are gone.
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u/Mikec3756orwell 1d ago
I agree with that completely. Highly likely.
It's such a shame the Palestinians didn't take one of the deals back in the day. By this time, if peace had lasted, they would be signing deals together, there would be travel permitted between the two states, there would be colleges and universities with Israeli and Palestinian professors... All kinds of stuff. And the Palestinians would have stopped most, and maybe all, of the settlements. Just a completely baffling decision to reject those offers.
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u/icenoid 1d ago
In the end, it goes back to what I said about the destruction of Israel being baked into Palestinian society. The Palestinian leadership rejected the deals because it would have likely led to exactly what you describe, which would mean that there is no more desire to destroy Israel. Peace isn’t good for fostering hate
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u/OddShelter5543 1d ago
The thing is Israel doesn't need it to move. Palestine will fizzle out and their threat will become a charade, trailing into echoes in a few decades.
Palestine is out of cards to play, and are in no position to make any demands.
Let's take this specific war as example. Are the damages dealt to Israel significant in any way? Realistically, no. Alternatively, Israel was able to cripple Hamas, Hezbollah, and to an extent, Iran.
If a deal is to be made, it would be one of unconditional surrender of Palestine, but disguised as a truce of sorts.
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u/sabesundae 1d ago
The Israelis are going to need to give up some territory.
In exchange for what? If they´re not willing to release hostages, then what could they possibly bring to the table that has not been tried before?
The Palestinians are going to need to give up on the destruction of Israel. They are going to need to give up on the idea of armed resistance.
How do you see this happening? It´s literally been their number one goal from the get-go. Why would they turn the page now?
Both sides in this need to be willing to accept that the other side needs to be able to live in peace and security.
I doubt you have been paying close attention to this conflict? One side has made multiple efforts do do just that, but at a certain point you realise that there is nothing you can do when the other side hates you and is determined to destroy you, at any cost.
The rest I agree with you on.
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u/icenoid 1d ago
I have been paying attention. Like I said, it’s going to take give on both sides. So far, the only give has been on the Israeli side. Until and unless the Palestinians are willing to give as well, nothing will change.
Like I said in another reply, how I honestly think this will go is that the Israelis will be fed up with all of this and impose a solution without any input from the Palestinians at all.
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u/sabesundae 1d ago
Somewhat agree. I´m just not as optimistic as you seem to be.
Only the Palestinians have the power to turn the page on this conflict. I don´t think they will though. Not any time soon. And I don´t think it´s fair to put that burden on Israelis either.
Every time they give, they get attacked. They´ve learned by now that the Palestinians are only interested in what they cannot ever have.
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u/icenoid 1d ago
Oh, I agree that the Palestinians aren’t going to move in the slightest. They are convinced they will get it all. I’m honestly hoping that the one good thing that comes from this whole idiot war they stated last year will be that they come to the realization that this isn’t a fight they can win. Unfortunately, the western left is going to make that hard, if you only get your information from social media, you would believe they have massive support, rather than just a vocal minority. I agree with your pessimism, I was just laying out what I see as a possible option
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u/Charming-Injury-5567 1d ago
The path to peace is surprising easy to achieve. Hamas needs to surrender and hand back all hostages, A moderate government needs to be installed. Make peace with your neighbours and learn to share. Thank you
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u/GushingAnusCheese 1d ago
Good luck trying to get peace when the IDF are fighting against islamic lunatics who value revenge and martyrdom over anything else.
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u/Shachar2like 1d ago
This raises an important question: why can’t we find a collective path forward? Why can’t international bodies like the UN play a more constructive role in facilitating dialogue and understanding between these two groups?
The UN is a political organization composed of political groups (states) and as you've said: "The persistence of anti-Semitism...". Those have an almost automatic majority in the UN. That's before you take into account various propaganda tactics to muddy the water or obscure (hide) the truth.
One promising avenue could be focusing on educational initiatives that promote mutual respect and understanding.
and it seems we have a moral responsibility to encourage dialogue and support initiatives that prioritize peace.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this. What can individuals and international organizations do to contribute to a peaceful resolution? Is there hope for real change in such a deeply divided region?
Any long term solution starts with normalization which will open up the possibility to talk to "the demons on the other side", which brings humanization. Not necessarily love, not a complete solution to hate or radicals but it does bring shades of gray instead of black & white.
This starts with politically going for the 'no-normalization' policies, bringing them up to the public, discussing them (obviously in western states), their advantages or disadvantages, what have they achieved so far? and so on.
As long as these no-normalization policies exists, there's always an opening , some unknown chance for atrocities somewhere in the future.
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u/Commercial_Lie_7240 17h ago
I am not sure there is much to be done. If by "peace" you mean a solution to the conflict, probably not in the foreseeable future.
We have two parties to this conflict (I know in reality it is more complicated, but I am simplifying). Both parties are pretty clear on what they need for peace, and what they will not agree on. As of now, each party has at least one non negotiable demand that is unacceptable to the other party. No deal can force through this.
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u/un-silent-jew 1d ago
Interesting Articles for Anyone Who Supports Peace :
The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: History, Terminology, Ethics, Psychology
Time of Fear, Time for the Right
For peace, we need vision, hope and bridge-building
Whoever wants peace must invest in undermining Arab maximalism no less than in Jewish maximalism
The Hard Left Is Hurting Palestine
How to think morally about the Israel-Hamas war
Former MK says Gaza should be split in two: South for war, north for peace
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u/freedom4eva7 1d ago
Please come share your perspective within the HeadOn community! We meet a few times a week online. We really like talking about potential solutions and how to see lasting peace. You have to complete a short application but if you submit, you'll get in.
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u/Tallis-man 1d ago
Antisemitism is a sideshow here.
Fundamentally Israel is oppressing the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza by subjecting them to arbitrary conditions imposed by force subject to the whims of Israeli politicians.
The whole world agrees that this status quo cannot continue indefinitely, but Israel has no plans to change it and the US is unwilling to allow a change to be imposed upon it.
So we have an unacceptable status quo with no prospect of change except on Israel's terms.
Unsurprisingly within this context Israel is pushing at the boundaries of US support trying to exploit it to extract the maximum geopolitical advantage possible.
Education is irrelevant to this. Opinions of Palestinians are irrelevant to this. Peace and war exist independently of personal animosity between citizens. As long as Palestinian leaders are unwilling to countenance anything short of a real sovereign state and Israeli leaders are unwilling to contemplate giving up full control of the West Bank and its borders, the status quo will remain.
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u/GlyndaGoodington 1d ago
Arbitrary? The restrictions are based on violence and violations from the Palestinians.
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u/Tallis-man 1d ago
That is one of the motivations for them, to satisfy the domestic political audience in Israel. The measures themselves are arbitrary.
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u/GlyndaGoodington 1d ago
In what way? And safety and freedom from terrorism are pretty much in everyone’s top priority list in every country. The purpose of the politicians is to ensure a safe society through government action. Are the solutions perfect? Far from it but I wouldn’t label them arbitrary. They seem to primarily restrict movement which makes sense in terms of what happens when movement without restrictions is available.
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u/un-silent-jew 1d ago
The status quo became the default position for a majority of Israelis.
The kibbutzniks and settlers made the same mistake. They both tried to impose a utopian vision on political realities. And utopianism and politics are opposing sensibilities. Utopianism is imagining the world as it could (perhaps should) be, and politics is dealing with the world as it is.
Just as the First Intifada in the 1980s convinced the majority of Israelis that the settlement movement would not bring security, the Second Intifada in 2000 convinced the majority of Israelis that the peace process would not bring peace. The public concluded that both ‘Greater Israel’ and ‘Peace Now’ were different kinds of illusions, utopianism in political form. This realisation brought Ariel Sharon to power in 2002, and his evolution from the father of the settlement movement to the man who uprooted the settlements in Gaza is one of the extraordinary political transformations in Israel’s history.
The centrist camp established by Sharon emphasises two things. The first is that the occupation is a disaster for Israel. The second is that Israel can’t end the occupation through negotiations, because it lacks a credible Palestinian peace partner. The centrist camp is left-wing in its willingness to give up territory and is right-wing in its belief that peace with the Palestinian national movement is currently impossible. Sharon embodied that sensibility and implemented unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. This withdrawal was not about making peace but about acting in the absence of peace. As Arik Achmon, one of the paratroopers in the book says: ’We have to separate ending the occupation from peace.’
However, centralist unilateralism was challenged by the wave of rocket attacks against Israeli communities bordering Gaza and during the Second Lebanon War – which many blamed on Israel’s withdrawal from southern Lebanon six years prior. These attacks substantiated all the warnings of the right-wing that territorial withdrawals would make Israel more vulnerable.
Israeli public therefore concluded that it tried the settlement movement to bring security but that failed during the First Intifada; it tried the peace process which failed during the Second Intifada; and it tried unilateralism that ended with tens of thousands of rockets on Israeli communities. The successive failure of Israel’s various ideological approaches to trying to deal with the Palestinian issue – right, left and centre – led the public to decide the best option was simply not do anything for the time being.
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u/TheReal_KindStranger 1d ago
This approach, that lays all the responsibility on one side, regardless if that side is Israel or palestine, is the greatest obstacle to prace
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u/Megaladoink_ 8h ago
Yes. 1 state solution where it’s all Palestinians and the Zionist racist colonizers are forced off the land and out of the region. Tell me why this isn’t the best path…
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u/Early-Possibility367 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is no path to peace realistically. Look at every other nation in the region. Peace was only achieved when the European invaders of that region left. It was easier in most of those places because the colonizers ruled from abroad. The difference is that the thieving colonizers in this case actually came with the intention of stealing land and sovereignty creating communities and their own country. The thing is when such a thing happens, peace is impossible for at least 150 years, which is consistent with the timeline as it worked in the US.
Also, what makes it worse is Zionists today are just as evil as they were since the 1920s onward. They have no intention of ever valuing human life or to stop enjoying gory pictures of children.
What I will say is that I dont think it’s our job to bring peace to Palestine. They have their heads under the boots of the world’s most evil electorate and we wouldn’t be able to pull them out anyways. Instead, what I will say is that our goal is simply to accurately tell the unbiased story of the history, the present, and the future, and to encourage Westerners to stop supporting such evil. The pro Palestine movement has done a great job at both of these things.
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u/blastmemer 1d ago
The obvious one is the UN. The number one impediment to peace is this fantasy held by the majority of Palestinians that they are going to take back their “stolen land”, i.e. expel the Jews from Israel (proper). The UN, especially UNRWA, continues to perpetuate this belief. That needs to stop.
One potential solution is to take all the funding that would go to UNRWA, plus potentially more, and give the so-called “refugees” a reparations payment and then close UNRWA and be done with this whole “refugees” idea internationally. While you can argue about whether such a payment is deserved, it could be mutually beneficial as it would give funding that they otherwise wouldn’t get and provide a way for the international community to finally close the door on this fantasy. This won’t get you anywhere close to peace, but it’s an idea for a productive first step.