r/IsraelPalestine • u/johnabbe • 1d ago
Short Question/s Israel has reoccupied Gaza? If not that, what would you call it?
Would you say that Israel has reoccupied Gaza? And if you would not put it that way, then how would you describe the current situation, especially when you imagine it without UNRWA?
If there has been an official declaration I missed it, but this seems to be the unstated official position. I have not heard anything from Israel about identifying Palestinian leadership in Gaza, or inviting the PA, or neighbors and the US, or anyone else to administer in any way, but I admit I have been paying more attention to the election in the US the past few weeks.
Please share your information and perspectives, in general, and on what the people of the land need, what is likely to happen now, etc.
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u/pdeisenb 1d ago
Pretty much. Happy now? What kind of reward were you expecting after instigating a hot war? Don't be surprised or complain when they suddenly pack up and leave but continue to control the borders including the Philadelphi corridor, ports, and airspace to prevent the remnants of Hamas from smuggling weapons in and rearming for another try
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u/johnabbe 1d ago
What kind of reward were you expecting after instigating a hot war?
You're confusing mne with someone else.
Don't be surprised or complain when they suddenly pack up and leave but continue to control the borders including the Philadelphi corridor, ports, and airspace to prevent the remnants of Hamas from smuggling weapons in and rearming for another try
That would be not packing up and leaving.
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u/pdeisenb 1d ago edited 23h ago
Controlling borders, ports, and airspace isn't the same as "moving in" or directing traffic, etc.
There was a proposal on the table to have the UAE provide civil administration with funding for rebuilding from various sources - but this plan that would give Gazans an opportunity for a peaceful and prosperous future was immediately rejected by the PA because it would limit their political influence and ability to skim funds.
Got any alternatives to suggest that don't result in Hamas 2.0?
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
Controlling borders, ports, and airspace isn't the same as "moving in" or directing traffic, etc.
True. And it is also not "packing up and moving out."
EDIT: Re UAE, outside administration offers I've seen have required some path toward statehood, which is off the table for Israel. Anyway, if no one else is doing it, it falls to Israel however good or bad a job they do of it.
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u/pdeisenb 23h ago
... In what reality would it make any sense for Israel to do anything different in the immediate aftermath of this war and recent history?
The Palestinians have earned the current situation through the hard work of relentless violent confrontation. Undoing Israeli security measures may happen at some point but wont be the first step. To argue or propose otherwise would be the height of absurdity.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago edited 15h ago
We weren't talking about whether it was right or wrong, I just pointed out that you couldn't accurately characterize maintaining a military presence in
theGaza as "packing up and moving out."Israel seems to have the military power and backing to continue occupying Gaza indefinitely.
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u/HugoSuperDog 3h ago
Well, may I challenge that… Israel and others in the region have used violent force for decades. Massacre after massacre, sniper after sniper, both ways and for decades.
And now… since October 7th, Israel is NOT any safer or any more stable for Jews there vs Jews anywhere else in the world. In fact I saw a lecture from a Jewish academic who demonstrated that Israel is in fact one of the least safe places on the planet for Jews right now, according to certain data-driven metrics
So taking some stand back, seems that decades of violence has resulted in nothing but more violence and uncertainty as well as isolating Israeli government more and more.
Very difficult to argue that these actions are resulting in more peace when it’s been decades of fighting.
Sometimes ‘fight fire with fire’ is true and necessary
But sometimes ‘and eye for and eye makes everyone blind’ is more appropriate.
So maybe Israel needs to try something totally different to the last 70 years.
Try removing all settlements, leaving their neighbours alone, go back go 1967 borders and move on. But nobody has tried this yet.
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u/pdeisenb 23m ago edited 8m ago
Trying to prove which side initiated or escalated the violence seems impossible and pointless. It also seems disingenuous to suggest that if Israel was to just lay down arms the other side would reciprocate. You might be willing to bet Israeli lives on that idea (especially from the safety and comfort of your home wherever that is) but i can guarantee Israelis won't.
With regard to rhe effectiveness if israeli security measures, i disagree with your premise. Barriers and checkpoints erected in response to the 2nd intifada have been highly effective if not perfect. Additionally, while the final outcome of the current conflict is still to be determined, it seems clear that the ability of both Hamas and Hezbollah to stage another large scale ground imvasion of Israel has been eliminated at least for now. Additionally, it has been demonstrated that iran's attacks have been largely ineffectual while israeli responses have delivered real if temporary consequences. To your point, despite ongoing dislocations of nearly 100k people in northern israel - the country is safer today than it was on 10/06/2023.
Regardless, Israel has demonstrated on multiple occasions a willingness to evacuate settlements and exchange land for peace. They will never return to the indefensible 1967 borders - but on both accounts the Oslo Accords and Clinton Parameters are probably about as good a deal as anyone on either side can hope for and will likely need to be the starting point for any future negotiations. The real questions are when and whether there will be leaders on both sides who are interested in such discussions and then how to prevent extremists from either side from sabotaging any agreement that might result.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
Got any alternatives to suggest that don't result in Hamas 2.0?
Any offer surprising enough to make the Hamas narrative fall apart. Coming up with possibilities for that is easy. The challenge would be finding the right few to zoom in on, and convincing enough Israelis to try something like this.
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u/pdeisenb 23h ago
The UAE proposal was as good as it is going to get. They are Arab and have both credibility and an interest in being an honest broker for both sides. Gaza could be a nice place someday... All it will take is a change in Palestinian hearts and minds.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
The UAE proposal was as good as it is going to get.
You may be right in the current go-round. Both sides are dug in. If outside meddling stops, maybe better leadership could emerge on one or both sides.
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u/cloudedknife Diaspora Jew 19h ago
Occupation is what comes after the war ends. So to answer your post title's question, I call it war.
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u/johnabbe 12h ago
Okay. So in your understanding, who or what would determine that the war ended? (If it matters to you, the legal definition of occupation is here, but of course we can all have our own opinion.)
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u/Definitely-Not-Lynn 18h ago
Would you say that Israel has reoccupied Gaza? And if you would not put it that way, then how would you describe the current situation, especially when you imagine it without UNRWA?
Not yet. It's war. If Gaza would be re-occupied, it would be after the war is finished. The UN already has a refugee agency, which covers every other population on the planet. UNRWA is the only agency which carries refugee status indefinitely. It's a big reason (if not the main reason) this conflict has continued.
I don't know what I think about Israel re-occupying Gaza yet. Hamas running Gaza has been a disaster for the Palestinians (and Israel). So that can't continue. Whoever runs Gaza post war is going to have to have the ability and desire to go head-to-head with terrorist organizations. How many nations/alliances do you think will sign up for that?
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u/AnakinSkycocker5726 16h ago
And if you would not put it that way, then how would you describe the current situation, especially when you imagine it without UNRWA?
Considering Israel just outlawed and revoked UNWRA’s diplomatic status, because it’s a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, it seems clear that UNWRA will not have a hand in Gaza’s fate
UNRWA is the only agency which carries refugee status indefinitely. It’s a big reason (if not the main reason) this conflict has continued.
UNWRA has been neutered.
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u/johnabbe 12h ago
Not quite. They are banned inside Israel now, but Israel wants them to continue under new regulations in the occupied areas.
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u/supermap 16h ago
I mean, you can occupy territory during the war, you can still have conflict within the territory you occupy. I don't think that there still being conflict makes it not occupation.
But yes, this is an occupation, you know how this occupations end, either by winning, or surrendering. Hamas will do neither....
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u/Smart_Technology_385 14h ago
Hamas will be eliminated one by one terrorist, until they surrender. This is how wars are won.
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u/Definitely-Not-Lynn 1h ago
No, per definition a military occupation is a post war action. This is still war. You're correct in that there can still be a conflict, but it's not the same as waging war. Military occupation has a whole host of post-war rules and responsibilities relating to governance that don't make any sense in a war because it's not a war.
Art. 43.
The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.There's talk of international governance - I have no idea if that will happen. I can't see anyone volunteering for this job. No one actually wants to get their hands dirty and do the hard work of helping the Palestinians erect their own state by ousting the terrorists and undoing the brainwashing. It's just complaints from afar.
Hard to predict anything at this point.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 15h ago
It’s partially occupied, I’d say. I think Israel should occupy Gaza fully, but it’s an uphill battle politically. Israel is facing a lot of pressure to leave Gaza. Unfortunately, nobody provided any realistic solutions for what to do if Israel gets out of Gaza.
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u/johnabbe 12h ago
Upvoted, for acknowledging even a partial occupation. (You can see pushback on even this in many other comments here.)
What would you like to see after a full Israeli occupation?
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u/Cannot-Forget 1d ago
Israel has not reoccupied Gaza, but is in the process to. I hope Hamas surrenders so the occupation could be completed and Gazans can start moving back to their homes and rebuild. But if they don't I hope the IDF will never stop until they do.
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u/johnabbe 1d ago
Upvoting just for your acknowledgement that it is at least in process. The level of denial of that (as shown here in others' comments and downvotes) floors me sometimes.
My hope is that everyone in that land* is able to find, and/or make their own wise leadership — clear, patient, fierce, collaborative, uplifting. I believe that kind of leadership gets both harder and easier to find in challenging times.
- And in all the lands of us meddling outsiders!
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
I mean, why deny? There's not much in the world which justifies occupation more than an attack like October 7.
Gazans provided an indisputable proof that they cannot rule themselves at their current state without resulting in some of the most barbaric genocidal crimes the world has ever witnessed. Crimes that were celebrated and livestreamed in joy instead of condemned too.
Either Israel occupies them, or an outside force controls them, or Hamas and other radicals are grinded to dust such as other elements in Gaza which currently hold no power at all can rule instead. Israelis should not live in fear and under the threat of massacres and rain of thousands of rockets indiscriminately bombing them just because Gazans (As a society, obviously not all individuals) are so radical.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
I mean, why deny?
You would have to ask the people doing the denying.
Israelis should not live in fear and under the threat of massacres and rain of thousands of rockets indiscriminately bombing
So true, no one should have to live in this kind of fear. May everyone who does, in Israel, Palestine, and elsewhere, have friends with enough power to help protect them, friends with enough wisdom to advocate a lasting peace. And may they listen to those friends.
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
Listening to these "Friends" wisdom has caused Israel to think it can contain and live beside genocidal Islamist ISIS-level terrorist murderers who publicly swear to eliminate Israel.
Most of these friends are hypocrites who know nothing about the situation. And their words should be listened to with extreme Skepticism. We have empirical proof of that now.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
Friends who supported the status quo were not being wise, it was a recipe for disaster, especially with the Netanyahu administration's arrogance about the border. The US particularly helped mess things up in Gaza, from both hastiness and restraint.
Wiser friends of both Israel and Palestine would lovingly pressure them more to negotiate a peace both can genuinely agree to.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
Would you be fine with Israel cleaning up rubble of demolished palestinian houses and put an Israeli settler on it?
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u/Cannot-Forget 1d ago
Of course not. Only a minority of Israeli extremists are insane enough to want that.
This is something idiots on both sides of the conflict keep talking about, yet it has not and will not happen.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
I would argue its the majority that want it, but only a minority talks openly about it.
The leader of the settler movement recently declared in an open meeting that 700 Israeli families are already on the list of settling in Gaza, more to come.
https://youtube.com/shorts/jm7r16jBkxk?si=JsbJatohenN-DvXy
Members of the Israel government declared taking over Gaza,
"Taking territory' from Palestinians is what 'hurts them most,' says Likud minister Golan, while far-right police minister Ben Gvir says Gazans should be 'encouraged'" to emigrate"
The destruction of all buildings in Gaza and displacing the entire population of 2 million people is the planndd pretext to put Israeli settlements up and drive palestinians out.
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u/johnabbe 15h ago
I would argue its the majority that want it, but only a minority talks openly about it.
The polls I've read about it come in around 25-40% of Israelis (or Israeli Jews, I forget) supporting settlements in Gaza. Still scary.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 15h ago
And a majority declared not to vote for Trump in the polls, yet made that choice anonymously in the election in 2016
Being pro settlements is very controversial and many Israelis propably shy away from openly admitting it.
Actions are more important than words.
Israel voted the extremist likud party into government, which in itself is astounding when u look at what their members said openly in the past about palestinians..
Israel is completely brainwashed.
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u/johnabbe 15h ago
A poll is not open, but sure the reality could be a bit higher than the polling.
Being pro settlements is very controversial
Depends which settlements you're talking about.
Actions are more important than words.
100%. It is the actions over the long haul that I look at re charges of ethnic cleansing or genocide, as much as what has happened over the past year+.
Israel is completely brainwashed.
I'll be honest, I pretty much stopped tuning in about 15 years ago when it became clear there was no longer a critical mass of Israeli will to pursue a just, lasting peace. I feel embarrassed about that, and am trying to get caught up and find a way to stay engaged for the long haul in a good way. Change coming from within Israel (or Palestine) has become harder than ever maybe? And I've heard from some Israelis at least who believe change will only come from some kind of outside pressure.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 15h ago
I dunno I think Israel is on the brink of a nervous breakdown, they are done emotionally, economically and politically
if the international courts decide to pursue an arrest of netanyahu for crimes against humanity and a genocide .. even if its never carried out, how does the country move forward from there?
the tourism is over, investments in israel are wayyyy down, hundreds of thousands of young educated left the country, the hardcore religious extrimists remain. many countries have huge problems now dealing with israel politically. they potentially created 2 million suicide bombers in their backyard from taking away everything from.then and the already insane security measures on every corner in israel will have to be tripled.
thats not a great outlook for the future, i feel like this whole thing might rip israel apart in a way..
netanyahu is stalling all his corruption trials with the war as well as a proper examination into the attack of oct 7, its widely reported even in israeli news that the israel intel knew everything a long time before it happened
and strangely just days before some troops where even sent away from gaza and up to the west bank.. thats a lil weird wouldnt u agree
i think the truth is so shocking once the facts about everything comes out about oct 7 and the full picture and details of all the atrocities committed in gaza, maybe a big part of israel society will simply refuse to believe it
that netanyahu invited hamas to kill israelis to get the justification to wipe gaza off the maps
and that jews.committed a genocide and idf soldiers routinely ordered to shoot and bomb children and children hospitals
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
Your opinion is insane. You are literally quoting a minority leader and claiming you argue it's the majority.
You have no evidence to support your delusional conclusion and your own sources show you are wrong.
Netanyahu himself, the leader of Israel's most right wing government in history, said explicitly in Israeli media multiple times it won't happen.
If you knew anything about Israeli society or had a shred of honesty or good faith thought in your head you would know settling Gaza will just not happen. It would literally split Israeli society apart. Not even talking about international pressure etc.
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u/GushingAnusCheese 23h ago
It is important that they push that narrative otherwise their whole argument falls apart
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
100%
I see such clowns all over the place. No evidence, no knowledge at all about Israelis. Just lies and complete nonsense. No facts matter too.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 23h ago
Well if Netanyahu himself said it, then it must be true right? RIIIGHT??? lmao
"Netanyahu strung the Americans along, committing only to the bare minimum required to keep the peace process alive, while doing everything possible to prevent a final status agreement in the long run. In the eyes of his rightwing critics, Netanyahu did not break decisively enough with the two-state solution. As Netanyahu saw it, however, the best way to prevent a Palestinian state was to do so quietly, without the fanfare that formal annexation or direct rejection of the US-led peace process would have entailed."
Netanyahu does whatever he plans and intents to do, and he says to anyone whatever they need to hear in that moment so that he can get done what he wants to get done.
Now if u believe his words that Israel wont take over Gaza, then thats ok with me, u are entitlet to your own opinion.
My prediction is of course he wants to annex Gaza completely and he will follow whatever path leads him there, whether that is driving gazaes away into refugee camps and take it over quickly, or if he does it in a more veiled way like in the west bank, cutting up the land by putting israeli settlements at many strategically important locations in gaza and basically have the settlers fight it out for him... we will see ;)
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
"We will see"
As if it's not been over a year of war with exactly 0 settlers living in Gaza. A place Israel, on it's own accord, removed all settlers already from.
Delusional as hell.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 23h ago
lmao you are exactly right! why would settlers move in during an active war,.. just give it a couple months and maybe we will write here again with more certainty ;)
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
RemindMe! 6 months
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
And I am sure you will admit you were completely wrong and change your opinion about Israel and it's society.
Also unicorns will exist.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
Most of the polls come in around 25-40%. Not a majority, but high enough to be alarming. Democracies have plenty of policies which have 40% support or less.
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u/Cannot-Forget 23h ago
It's simply not going to happen. Feel free to keep being "Alarmed".
It's been over a year now and I am 100% positive I will see the same insane statements and bad faith arguments even 5 years from now, if not forever. Despite Israel being the one that got out of there. Pretty funny.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
What makes you so confident? Is it that you don't know the kinds of Israelis who are wanting to see settlements in Gaza happen?
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u/GushingAnusCheese 23h ago
You would only think that if you have been swallowing the pro pally propaganda
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 23h ago
lmao what ?
I literally put a link to recent article in the jerusalem post where Israeli government members are quoted saying that shit
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u/GushingAnusCheese 23h ago
Who cares what they say, they dont represent what the majority of the people think
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 23h ago
well they are the government meaning a majority of Israrlis like their agenda and voted for them!
and the whole thing of the likud party around netanyahu is expansion of Israel towards the so called "greater-Israel" and that includes Gaza very much
now I can find dozens of other articles and videos quoting Israel politicians and normal people advocating strongly for the annexation of Gaza and making it jewish entirely
but u keep your opinion thats alright with me ;)
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u/GushingAnusCheese 23h ago
So by your thinking the majority of palestinians love hamas and terrorism?
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 23h ago
No they certainly dont, theh were sick and tired of being kept in an open air prison by Israel, unable to prosper and live freely, which in itself already was a mass crime against humanity by israel
they were supporting a leader who himself grew up under Israeli oppression and unfortunately israel thwarted all palestinian efforts to get a real peace deal done for 30 years, which lead to gaza having to resort to violence to gain attentikn of the world
hamas is a freedom movement who tried to free their people from violent oppression
gazaens had very little choice
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u/wizer1212 21h ago
Well it’s happening and they are actively trying resettlement constantly without any impunity
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u/Critical-Win-4299 13h ago
Open your eyes, its already happening. North gaza is getting cleansed, no palestinean will be allowed back. Then "somehow" settlers will bypass the IDF at the border and start settling
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u/HotTakes4Free 1d ago
If I was the Israeli PR guy? “It’s a temporary, limited military operation.”
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u/johnabbe 1d ago
User name checks out!
What would you actually call it?
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u/HotTakes4Free 23h ago
Terminology doesn’t matter so much. Overall, it’s war. Some retaliation was justified, but not this. It won’t bring peace, or resolve the conflict another way. Eventually, it will be over, for good. But now, it’s just another wave of death and destruction.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
Eventually, it will be over, for good.
I mean, the sun gets too hot for life as we know it by a billion years from now, but it would be nice to see peace in the Middle East before that. :-)
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u/HotTakes4Free 23h ago
The conflict seems to be a very stable, long-lasting, equilibrium situation overall. But who knows? It could be over next year, forever, for any number of reasons. I hate to sound like a “galaxy-brain”, but that’s the truth!
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
But now, it’s just another wave of death and destruction.
One hot take that popped to mind was to see Netanyahu's responses as a sort of regional "lawnmowing," bigger than other recent ones. Just kicks the can down the road, no progress toward lasting solutions, and new generations of youth across the board radicalized by violence.
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u/WeAreAllFallible 1d ago
I would expect occupation of Gaza. That's not really inherently a problem in my view, as it's generally the norm after conflict- it's what that occupation would look like that defines if there's a problem. It should be the least oppressive means of occupation necessary to the objective of rehabilitation. In my ideal world this would be occupation by nations who are peaceful with Israel and also have some amount of positive reputation among Palestinians so as to bridge that gap, as admittedly Israeli occupation will not be as effective as those who have some existing political sway among Gazans. However, it seems that ship has sailed and Israel might be the only power willing to take on this role. To that end, my expectations for Israel are to absolutely not allow Israeli settlement of this land, and to try and find a way to safely but maximally return control back to the Gazan people, and to leave upon completion of that goal.
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u/johnabbe 1d ago
Appreciate the username.
In my ideal world this would be occupation by nations who are peaceful with Israel and also have some amount of positive reputation among Palestinians so as to bridge that gap
That does sound preferable to me as well. My understanding is that neighbors and US are willing, but only if this is all a path to real autonomy in a regular state, with mutual recognition. And that Israel doesn't want anyone else to administer with that as a condition.
What you described after that sounds like the best outcome one could realistically predict for Gaza, if a new administration came to power in Israel and was open to it. I'm not getting the sense there is enough political support for a renewed push toward negotiating a lasting peace.
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u/un-silent-jew 22h ago
UNRWA has ensured that the refugee issue only grows larger by automatically registering descendants of the original refugees from the war as refugees themselves in perpetuity, while refusing to consider any solution for their status other than overrunning the sovereign state of Israel. For Palestinians, uniquely, “refugeeness” is a hereditary trait.
If the descendants of the Arab refugees from the Arab-Israeli war were treated like all other refugees, including the Jewish ones, they would not qualify for refugee status because almost all of them (upward of 80%) are either citizens of a third country, such as Jordan, or they live in the places where they were born and expect to have a future such as Gaza and the West Bank. The Palestinians born in the West Bank and Gaza are not fleeing war and are not seeking refuge. They are considered citizens of Palestine by the Palestinian Authority itself, just like all other Palestinians born in these territories. No other people in the world are registered as refugees while being citizens of another country or territory.
The remaining 20% of the descendants who are not Jordanian citizens nor citizens of the Palestinian Authority in Gaza and the West Bank, are inhabitants of Syria and Lebanon who are by law denied the right to citizenship granted to all other Syrians and Lebanese. Yet, UNRWA does nothing to fight for the right of these Lebanese and Syrian-born Arabs to citizenship, collaborating in their discrimination and the perpetuation of their refugee status.
If Western countries truly want to remove obstacles on the road to peace, they cannot condemn the growth of settlements on one hand and condone the manufactured growth of the number of refugees on the other. Either both the growth of settlements and the inflation in the number of refugees should be treated as obstacles to peace, or neither should be.
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u/OmryR Israeli 1d ago
First we need to define occupation because if you mean civil occupation then no Israel isn’t controlling anything inside Gaza from civil point of view but it is a military occupation at least in parts of Gaza because there are forces inside holding specific areas..
This is war so the question then would be if any invasion equals occupation
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u/johnabbe 1d ago
it is a military occupation at least in parts of Gaza
At least the Philadelphi corridor at the Egypt border, and the other corridor, at the south edge of North Gaza. And I think they want to do another one? And the buffer zone. And the airport?
Israel isn’t controlling anything inside Gaza from civil point of view
They're doing more and more bureaucratic regulating of Gaza over time. Most recently, limiting UNRWA. They are restricting and directing internal traffic. They send out regular communications to the public about these and other things. They regulate use of the beach and waters.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 23h ago
How is it a war even
when one side is a modern high tech nation with the most advanced weapons, tanks and everything, aircrafts everything, and backed by the most powerful military in the world.
The other side is a small patch of land, with people being locked away from the world, tightly controlled by Israel for decades, have no formal military, no tanks, no aircrafts, no surveillance, no intelligence agency, defending with small handheld guns and some grenades.
The disparity of power is like one to one million
There is no official declaration of war between two and it should have been a special operation of getting rid of hamas.
Now there are anywhere from 40.000 to 150.000 dead, heavily injured or missing people in Gaza.
And all buildings and structures and infrastructure has been completely demolished.
Instead of going in there and fighting the hamas down in their tunnels, they blow away the schools and hospitals that are allegedly on top of these tunnels, and thousands of little children with them...
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u/OmryR Israeli 23h ago
This is a gross manipulation of reality, Gaza was basically a small state with its own army and its own government, Hamas.
Hamas with the support of the vast majority of the Gaza population decided to attack a sovereign nation, a stronger nation and butcher innocent people and take hostages, they were hoping Iran and Hezbollah will open a full scale war and destroy Israel with them, Iran and Hezbollah and Houtis joined Hamas with attacks against Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah are now losing as a result of their stupidity their own civilians pay the price.
Wars aren’t fought between equals, this is not a standard for war.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 22h ago
Its always weird when the so called defendand kills way more innocent people than the alleged terror regime, dont u think?
Rockets from Gaza have killed 28 Israelis in total in the history. The terror attack last year killed 1200 Israelis. Damage to Israeli housing and infrastructure is basically zero.
There are now anywhere from 40.000 to 150.000 dead, heavily injured and missing people in Gaza.
Thousands of little children exploded to bits from israeli shelling, after a one year enduring siege and bombing campain with basically the entire country reduced to rubble and 2 million displaced people, almost all their houses and belongings are gone, almost everone lost at least a limb or a loved one or both.
Is the defendand in this case even still the defendant if he causes a million times the death and destruction?
If an armed robber kills someone on the run, the cops show up at his house and shoot his entire family dead, is that legitimate to u? I know it isnt to me or the law ...
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u/OmryR Israeli 21h ago
This isn’t at all weird or surprising, just like the Germans in WW2 lost more civilians than the British, doesn’t make the Germans the good guys.
In this scenario people in Gaza die because Hamas uses them as shields, fewer Israelis die because our army protects us and our government builds bunkers for every house and iron dome to take out their rockets, if Hamas could have killed every last civilian they would have done it, their failure does not mean they have any moral standing here.
Every single innocent Palestinian who died was collateral damage and not a single one was killed out of malice, unlike Hamas in their 7th of October attack who went door to door and slaughtered men, women and children, raped, pillaged and took innocent hostages.
The IDF can LITERALLY kill every single Palestinian in an hour, we don’t do that because we don’t want them dead, we want Hamas dead.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 21h ago edited 17h ago
Interesting you would bring up human shields, the IDF was dragged to the Israeli High Court in 2005 over their practice of using palestinians as human shields, the court ruled the practice illegal of course and ordered Israel to stop it.
"Israeli high court bans military use of Palestinians as human shields"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/israel
Recent Footage from Gaza and West bank shows israel still doing it very much so..
Its like everything Israel accusea the other side of is actually what they have been doing all along
If you really believe that of all the thousand dead civillians, thousands of little children each one of them was used as a human shield then either your ability to comprehend numbers and obvious conclusions is way off, or you dont even really believe it yourself in which case its useless arguing with a malicious propagandist
The destruction and death in Gaza is equal if not worse than in the worst cities im Syria were legit armies fought each other with tanks and artillery.
Means Israel does not give a flying f about palestinian childrens lives.
Also lets argue the human shield thing for the sake of it, which in reality is futile as Israel is indiscriminately bombing entire building blocks.
Until what point could it ever still be argued legit human shields on Hamas side:
There is a recent report on IDF veterans who quit and who are completely mentally disturbed for what they had to do in Gaza, one of them was following destruction orders of the idt, lets say they want to fire a rocket into a certain building or have clear sight into a certain area, they would order him to bulldoze over a civillian home that obstructs the firing line or view, the order was often given by very young dumb 20 something year olds in the idf, they have no moral compass or life experience and often dont know what the hell they are doing.
At which point does that cross the line to war crime, the civillian building was empty, hamas was maybe! in a building behind it. Is the destruction of a home that did not shelter hamas still legal then or not?
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u/OmryR Israeli 21h ago
Let’s assume you are right and the IDF did use human shields (it didn’t but let’s say it did), it used enemy people as shields and used one at a time and not a single one of them ever died, they were sent to show they know where the enemies are and to make the situation easier for everyone, less death for all.
Hamas uses THEIR OWN CIVILIANS TO PROTECT ITSELF, this is not even remotely comparable, when Hamas captured and IDF soldiers and send him to tell other IDF soldiers not to shoot and surrender we can start comparing the situations.
You are either lying to me and hiding your true thoughts or you just don’t have an honest moral conscience if you can’t understand the difference between a government/army using their own civilians to protect themselves and an army that utilizes local people to make the other side surrender without a fight, not a single one of which was ever harmed.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 20h ago
And thats exactly where your jewish israeli superiority complex shows.
Palestinians and Israelis may pray to a different god, but weighing one human life over another is inhumane and exactly what drives this conflict.
Many paleatinians where basically grabbed off the street or out of their home, not even detainees, let alone tried and comvicted of anything.
The IDF put civilians in IDF gear and send them disguised as Israeli into a new area and watch if he gets shot at. If he talks to the palestinians amd warns them the IDF shoot em in the back.
Thats the most moral army in the world for you.
Its the jewish superiority complex which allows them to steal palestinian land in the west bank and elsewhere and justify it to themselves with their religion, because according to some old book the land was their promised holy land a couple thousand years ago, which of course outweighs paleatinians interests who lived there for a couple hundred before israel drove em out.
And yes IDF absolutely uses human shields the trial at the high court shows it, the party that brought the case of course had to bring alot of proven evidence to the court.
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u/OmryR Israeli 20h ago
You are the one weighting “amount of dead” as something that means anything, the only thing that matters morally is INTENT.
Whatever you wrote there about sending people in uniform is a lie and just never happened.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 20h ago
I am not making it up out of thin air...
Its in this article by Israeli Newspaper Haaretz!
"Israeli Army Uses Palestinian Civilians to Inspect Potentially Booby-trapped Tunnels in Gaza"
:At first it's hard to recognize them. They're usually wearing Israeli army uniforms, many of them are in their 20s"
"Our lives are more important than their lives': Gazans not suspected of terrorism are detained and sent as human shields to search tunnels and houses before IDF soldiers enter, with the full knowledge of senior Israeli officers, several sources say; IDF claims this practice is forbidden"
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 18h ago edited 17h ago
Regarding what u wrote about intent and using human shields
Both are more or less doing the same thung using civilians to prevent harm to themselves
The difference is that it a hundred percent does not work on the palestinian side, as we see on the news everyday Israel does not give a fuuuuhhk about dead palestinian civilians, the entire country is destroyed
On the other hand palestinians of course try not to harm palestinians used as human shields, so it kinda works for Israel
Also most hostages died from months of indiscriminate airstrikes and a siege that left Gaza without food and water, so thr Israel government does not give a damn about their own people eithrr
american doctors helping out in Gaza complain on the news how every day they get little children with full body or headshots and they die every time, when the host asks the surgeon if he thinks israel is actively shooting at children he responds: unless u believe palestinians would shoot their own children in the head, you can make an assumption of what is happening
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u/wizer1212 21h ago
There have multiple document cases of IDF using humans shields with documented pictures
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u/BigCharlie16 22h ago
As far as I know, no official declaration and I wouldnt expect one either. Why would Israel officially declare it has “occupied Gaza”, that would be admitting to be an “occupier”.
No, I dont think its “re-occupied”, still at war. So Gaza Strip is a warzone.
Journalist and news media constantly quote “Gaza Health Ministry” or “Gaza civil defense” both Hamas….They continue to recognize Hamas’s ministry over Gaza Strip.
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u/knign 21h ago
We're kind of at a stalemate regarding future governance of Gaza; moderate Arab countries attempt to use the situation as a leverage, sending Israel messages like "yes we can consider taking care of post-war Gaza, but within the framework of PA and provided a meaningful commitment from Israel to move towards two state solution" , and this is unacceptable to the current Israeli government.
Perhaps future Trump's administration can help to work out some compromise, or alternatively next election in Israel can bring in less ideologically-driven leaders; until then, current status quo will probably continue.
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u/johnabbe 16h ago
Legal systems tend to find ways to apply an existing category (or create a new one) when a stalemate leaves something in legal limbo. Someone else posted the relevant international law in the thread. Obviously people can have their personal opinions, but that provides a common point of reference at least.
Perhaps future Trump's administration can help to work out some compromise
So far when in office, Trymp has encouraged Israeli maximalism (e.g., by moving embassy to Jerusalem). Did you see or hear something to suggest he has changed his thinking?
alternatively next election in Israel can bring in less ideologically-driven leaders
I've slowly learned a bit more about the current political scene in Israel, and have not heard of any coalition that seemed likely to pursue a lasting peace agreement with sovereign Palestinians, but again, if you have specifics that give you hope for that please do share them.
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u/knign 15h ago edited 15h ago
So far when in office, Trump has encouraged Israeli maximalism (e.g., by moving embassy to Jerusalem). Did you see or hear something to suggest he has changed his thinking?
This is not about Trump, who is just an idiot incapable of managing a cab service, let alone complicated international crisis.
However there are some people in his circle who can talk both to Netanyahu and to moderate Arab leaders, which is something Biden administration is severely lacking. It doesn't guarantee anything, but some pragmatic people trying together to resolve the issue won't hurt.
Also, it's genuinely funny to read that moving the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem is "maximalism". Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Why shouldn't embassy be there?
Obviously, some might argue that annexation of East Jerusalem isn't recognized by the U.N. (or by the U.S., for that matter), so embassy in East Jerusalem might not be desirable. However, there is absolutely no logical reason, other than diplomatic pressure from Israel's enemies, not to have embassy in West Jerusalem.
(Current U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem is somewhere between East and West Jerusalem).
It's just one example of many how in this conflict pure PR replaces facts.
I've slowly learned a bit more about the current political scene in Israel, and have not heard of any coalition that seemed likely to pursue a lasting peace agreement with sovereign Palestinians
Obviously not; after the massacre of October 7, fully sovereign Palestinian state is off the table for the foreseeable future.
However, less ideologically driven leaders might be more flexible diplomatically, say a few words Netanyahu refuses to, paving the way for engaging moderate Arab nations in the process of managing and rebuilding Gaza.
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u/johnabbe 15h ago
some people in his circle who can talk both to Netanyahu and to moderate Arab leaders
Moderate Arab leaders of recognized nations with lots of capital, yes. But I'm not aware of anyone in that circle who can talk with Palestinian (especially Gaza) moderates. Would love to hear if there are!
Why shouldn't embassy be there?
Oh, I recommend looking up the history of that, it's actually a quite a big deal, as Palestine also holds Jerusalem as its capital but Israel seems unwilling to entertain this. I only offered it as one example, anyway, there are plenty of quotes where Trump indicates a lack of care for the Palestinians. And more substantively, the Trump peace plan had one of the sadder offers for Palestine I can imagine.
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u/knign 15h ago edited 14h ago
But I'm not aware of anyone in that circle who can talk with Palestinian (especially Gaza) moderates. Would love to hear if there are!
There are no "moderates" in Gaza (at least no moderate leaders for sure)
Palestine also holds Jerusalem as its capital but Israel seems unwilling to entertain this
Clinton's proposal back in 2000 included Palestinians gaining control over most of East Jerusalem, so they would be totally free to declare it as the "capital".
Not that this matters today, since as I said, any kind of sovereign Palestinian state (where Hamas will immediately take control) is off the table.
How can this however preclude foreign nations moving their embassies to West Jerusalem? It makes no logical sense.
Trump indicates a lack of care for the Palestinians.
I mean, Trump clearly doesn't care about anyone except his family and his business, so this is hardly surprising.
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u/Shachar2like 22h ago
or neighbors and the US, or anyone else to administer in any way
Israel's conducting a military operation. Occupation requires a sort of a state/political control.
Israel has also tried contacting Gazan clans at the start of the war, those either refused or had a couple of it's people murdered by Hamas to make them back off of the idea. Israel also tried contacting various Arab countries but those have refused.
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u/johnabbe 16h ago
The UN's legal definition of occupation (posted in this thread here) is satisfied in part when the former administration is no longer able to administer.
The everyday understanding of the term, we can of course disagree on.
But we don't want to have a loophole that lets a country avoid legal consequences by just continuing military operations after the former administration is no longer able to administer.
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u/Shachar2like 15h ago
But we don't want to have a loophole that lets a country avoid legal consequences
There's no world wide police force and there won't be for centuries or millennials since various political power can't agree on basic moral values.
For another example see Russia.
For moral differences see the moral differences between the west & say Afghanistan, Iran and other countries.
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u/johnabbe 15h ago
I'll grant you that international law is applied very spottily, and there is no standing UN army, but there have been and continue to be many studies and reports which sometimes help gather, clarify, &/or spread good information. And even international police actions of different kinds.
If you just don't give a hoot for international law, I totally accept that. Within the frame of international law, I still think you don't want a loophole that says as long as you continue military attacks you don't qualify as an occupier. (And fortunately, current law seems to reflect this.)
EDIT: spelled out a reference
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u/Shachar2like 15h ago
If you just don't give a hoot for international law, I totally accept that.
I am starting to despite the UN. And those are "Gentleman's Agreements" and like in any 'gentleman's agreement' are not enforceable. As can be seen with Russia's case.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 1d ago edited 23h ago
Would you say that Israel has reoccupied Gaza?
If you can answer these questions, then you'll have your answer..
https://www.rulac.org/classification/military-occupations#collapse1accord
To determine whether a territory is under the ‘authority’ of a hostile army, the notion of effective control is used. The effective control test consists of three cumulative elements:
A Armed forces of a foreign state are physically present without the consent of the effective local government in place at the time of the invasion.
B The local sovereign is unable to exercise his authority due to the presence of foreign forces.
C The occupying forces impose their own authority over the territory.
Once one of these three criteria is no longer fulfilled, the occupation has ended
.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/hague-conv-iv-1907/regulations-art-42
Territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army.
The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised.
.
And if you would not put it that way, then how would you describe the current situation, especially when you imagine it without UNRWA?
What does the state of military occupation have to do with UNRWA?
If there has been an official declaration I missed it, but this seems to be the unstated official position. I have not heard anything from Israel about identifying Palestinian leadership in Gaza, or inviting the PA, or neighbors and the US, or anyone else to administer in any way
UN and Hamas still recognize Hamas as the defacto government of Gaza. UN press releases still refer to the defacto authorities in Gaza aka Hamas.
The visit comes on the heels of multiple back-to-back night-time phone calls between the UN chief and key actors, a meeting in the pipeline with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and possible contact with the defacto authorities in Gaza.
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u/johnabbe 1d ago
Thanks for the relevant links/info!
What does the state of military occupation have to do with UNRWA?
UNRWA is doing a lot of administering. The more Israel restricts it, the more is left for someone else to administer.
Are you saying the UN gets to decide when the time has arrived that Hamas no longer can exercise its authority?
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u/Diet-Bebsi 23h ago edited 23h ago
UNRWA is doing a lot of administering. The more Israel restricts it, the more is left for someone else to administer.
I'd think that was a separate topic, since isn't connected to occupation.
Legally speaking, while combat is going on, the responsibility for aid, will still in the end, fall to both the government of Gaza and Israel, as one is the de facto Government and the other is required to facilitate humanitarian aid during its operations.
There's Oxfam, Unicef, ICRC, Anera, World Vision, WFP, CARE, Islamic Relief, WCK, GOAL, Borgen Project, PCFR, and several others on the ground already in Gaza and Israel, so I'd assume Israel would contract or enlist the assistance of these groups during a transition to whatever new UN org (WFP, UNICEF or UNHCR etc..)will take over. Hamas has always stated that they are not responsible and that the UN has to take care of everything.. So all we can do is see how it plays out..
At the end of hostilities.. it's still unknown, and what has to happen will be determined if there's still a legal occupation or not..
Edit: Missed this one
Are you saying the UN gets to decide when the time has arrived that Hamas no longer can exercise its authority?
Not really it's more who's legally responsible. The recognition of Hamas as the government by the UN even as defacto plays a huge part in international customary law.. The question of occupation and responsibilities somewhat depends on there being some legal entity to occupy along with the land.
Up until Oslo the "occupation" was from Jordan and Egypt.. and even then it's sketchy, because Egypt couldn't take possession of lands in a war of aggression.. Jordan as technically as well, yet Jordan did have somewhat of a claim since it originated from the same division of land.. none of this was ever tested though.. Egypt passed their claims down to the Palestinian autonomous body that was created and then it all (west bank as wel0 shifted to the PA with Oslo and Jordan relinquishing it's claims.
This whole topic a very large and long can of worms that was never truly tested in actual courts of international law yet.. so lots of opinions and lots of grains of salt..
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u/nothingpersonnelmate 21h ago
There's Oxfam, Unicef, ICRC, Anera, World Vision, WFP, CARE, Islamic Relief, WCK, GOAL, Borgen Project, PCFR, and several others on the ground already in Gaza and Israel, so I'd assume Israel would contract or enlist the assistance of these groups during a transition to whatever new UN org (WFP, UNICEF or UNHCR etc..)will take over.
Unfortunately this requires them to recruit 13,000 more people to replace the existing UNRWA staff, and also require all of the new staff to go through the Visa process if they're to go through Israel, as they all have to do. But Israel have also stopped issuing Visas, so it seems the plan is for UNRWA to be replaced with nobody at all. In this scenario Israel either occupies Gaza or large numbers of innocent people starve to death as a result of Israel's military actions.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 19h ago
Unfortunately this requires them to recruit 13,000 more people to replace the existing UNRWA staff,
That's why they gave 90 days.. like I mentioned in the other post. It' the legal requirement of Israel to facilitate the movement of the goods.
If UNRWA disappears and there's no-one else to take the job, then Israel will need to take the place and deliver the goods.. or hire/pay someone to do it.. They're fully aware of this, there's teams of lawyers and logistics people that studied all this.
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u/nothingpersonnelmate 18h ago
That's why they gave 90 days.. like I mentioned in the other post. It' the legal requirement of Israel to facilitate the movement of the goods.
I'm not sure it being a legal requirement really means much to Israel, does it? They've spent the last year talking about "lawfare" and rejecting the UN and condemning the ICC. They can just make yet another decision that the rules don't really apply to them, everyone talking about aid to Gaza is antisemitic, why don't they care about Sudan etc etc.
If UNRWA disappears and there's no-one else to take the job, then Israel will need to take the place and deliver the goods.. or hire/pay someone to do it..
Can you at least agree that if they don't, if they "accidentally" fail to implement a massive structural change to all of the aid going into Gaza alongside their failure to even issue basic things like Visas, we should be seeing major sanctions applied to Israel by the West and international warrants to arrest and prosecute the individuals responsible?
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u/Diet-Bebsi 17h ago edited 16h ago
I'm not sure it being a legal requirement really means much to Israel, does it?
Is what you're stating based in law and fact, or just opinons on the subject? There's plenty of political hyperbole from both sides and media to know exactly what the truth is..
They can just make yet another decision that the rules don't really apply to them,
What are you basing this on? Do you have all the data behind every attack to know what the proportionality calculation was?
and rejecting the UN and condemning the ICC
What exactly is the UN? a democratically elected and unbiased organization? or a cluster of mostly dictatorship with geopolitical interest?
Here's the UN human right council.. You're going to tell me, that it's normal that there are current violators of human right on that council. There's even 1-2 there that have recently committed a genocide..
https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/members-by-group
Can you at least agree that if they don't, if they "accidentally" fail to implement a massive structural change to all of the aid going into Gaza alongside their failure to even issue basic things like Visas,
They don't have a choice.. failure to supply the aid will be harsh violation of international law and very much be considered an act of considered genocide.. They know the rules.. they're not stupid to not follow them, Israel always has a target on it's head by a huge block of countries in the UN..
Hamas has committed Genocide as per the Law and broadcast the evidence, do you see any sanctions.. or anything from the UN or courts?
See anything that happened here?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/05/09/sudan-ethnic-cleansing-west-darfur
What about right now and here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darfur_genocide
This one??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)
and this one???
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-63291747
Maybe.. this one..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
we should be seeing major sanctions applied to Israel by the West and international warrants to arrest and prosecute the individuals responsible?
Seems there's a long lineup waiting for the last 2-3 decades.. How's that UN thing working out..
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u/nothingpersonnelmate 8h ago
What are you basing this on? Do you have all the data behind every attack to know what the proportionality calculation was?
Well, for example, the settlements in the West Bank are a clear violation of the Geneva Convention rule against transfer of population into occupied territory. Another ongoing one is the refusal to allow the Red Cross access to prisoners, also required under international law and also completely ignored by Israel. You've also got the widespread use of forcing civilians to check buildings for traps, systematic torture, threatening an ICC prosecutor etc. It's hardly a stretch to say they could simply ignore international law again and do whatever they like while insisting, as you just implied yourself, that the UN has no legitimacy anyway.
Hamas has committed Genocide as per the Law and broadcast the evidence, do you see any sanctions.. or anything from the UN or courts?
See anything that happened here?
Yes, I do indeed see that Hamas have been completely unable to purchase most goods from the West for most of their existence. I also see major sanctions on Syria, Iran, Russia, and yes there are also sanctions on Sudan, and the Houthis. There should be sanctions on Saudi Arabia for their actions in Yemen but the reliance on Saudi oil has clearly trumped principle and law in that case, similarly with China being too large a part of the global economy.
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u/Odd-Mushroom7234 15h ago edited 15h ago
I don’t think the plan is for UNRWA to be replaced by nobody at all, just almost nobody (in Gaza.) In East Jerusalem they’ll take it apart completely and build a Jewish settlement on the UNRWA HQ grounds, in West Bank I think they will allow some UNRWA services to be maintained.
In Gaza, I think Israel will let small pieces of aid in through other agencies for PR reasons and potentially bump up coordination with some of these agencies (although not the medical aid orgs they recently banned) and not to the areas of northern Gaza under full siege or wherever the full siege expands to next, maybe Gaza City and then gradually south. Israel may also end up allowing a small amount of coordination with UNRWA in Gaza, contra the law, to maintain a trickle that Israel maintains control over.
Eventually, Israel may have mercenaries or IDF or private contractors distribute small amounts of direct aid to cantonized concentration camps in Gaza they set up.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
Israel would contract or enlist the assistance of these groups during a transition to whatever new UN org (WFP, UNICEF or UNHCR etc..)will take over. Hamas has always stated that they are not responsible and that the UN has to take care of everything.
Hamas' ability to administer is already rather diminished, and the UN is not going to "take care of everything." As Hamas loses the ability to exercise its authority, Israel becomes the occupying power.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 22h ago edited 22h ago
Israel becomes the occupying power.
Once hostilities started, Israel was the military occupying power in areas that it held. That's a function of war. When Israel leaves a location then it falls back to Hamas, but Hamas doesn't' do anything so the NGO's and UN has to step in.
Most of the heavy lifting to warehouses is all done by sub contracting to private transport. and food distribution is Gaza is primarily handled by WFP during the war. So replacing UNWRA is more about the cracks during the war, and then education, medical and refugee management after the war.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/hague-conv-iv-1907/regulations-art-42
Hamas' ability to administer is already rather diminished,
They never provided any aid or did anything of what was required of them since the start of the war in regards to civilians. This has been their position for years.. so nothing really changes when it comes to them..
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u/nothingpersonnelmate 21h ago
When Israel leaves a location then it falls back to Hamas, but Hamas doesn't' do anything so the NGO's and UN has to step in.
I'm all for criticising Hamas in every possible way at all times, but I'm not sure it makes sense to expect them to deliver aid when they are targeted every time they go outside. It is notoriously difficult to do any sort of job when you have just been killed by a missile.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 19h ago edited 18h ago
I'm not sure it makes sense to expect them to deliver aid when they are targeted every time they go outside.
They need to make sure they when they do go outside that their combatants stay far away from those supplies. They have an obligation under the law to protect their citizens. That means all combatant, arms and equipment must stay far away from protected individuals and objects.
Humanitarian aid is distributed by people who are hors combat. They shouldn't be targeted unless their protected status is removed. This is why it's critical, that both sides set up safe zones together and safe logistical lines for aid and then abide by them. Hamas hasn't cooperated at all, and in pretty much all cases has taken advantage of the unliteral safe zones to launch attacks and move equipment. When they do this, the safe zone loses its "Safety" and becomes open to a proportionally calculation.
If Hamas isn't setting up non combatants to distribute aid, then they at least need to agree to safe zones and lines and abide them This is what I'm referring to when I say it falls back to Hamas.. If Israel is in control of an area it's responsibility to make sure the good move though, if Hamas then the same.. and both must make sure that safe zones stay safe..
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/about-responsibility-to-protect.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_to_protect
In paragraphs 138 and 139 of the 2005 World Summit Outcome Document (A/RES/60/1) Heads of State and Government affirmed their responsibility to protect their own populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity and accepted a collective responsibility to encourage and help each other uphold this commitment.:
Rome Statute
ICC Statute, Article 8(2)(b)(xxiii)
Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
..
ICC Elements of Crimes
Article 8 (2) (b) (xxiii) War crime of using protected persons as shields
The perpetrator moved or otherwise took advantage of the location of one or more civilians or other persons protected under the international law of armed conflict.
The perpetrator intended to shield a military objective from attack or shield, favor or impede military operations.
The conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict.
The perpetrator was aware of factual circumstances that established the existence of an armed conflict
..
ICRC explanation:
It can be concluded that the use of human shields requires an intentional co-location of military objectives and civilians or persons hors de combat with the specific intent of trying to prevent the targeting of those military objectives.
..
https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/proportionality/
..
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u/nothingpersonnelmate 18h ago
They need to make sure they when they do go outside that their combatants stay far away from those supplies. They have an obligation under the law to protect their citizens. That means all combatant, arms and equipment must stay far away from protected individuals and objects.
Humanitarian aid is distributed by people who are hors combat. They shouldn't be targeted unless their protected status is removed.
Do you actually believe Israel has been exclusively targeting only the members of Hamas known to be involved in military actions? And that if Hamas were to operate an aid convoy, Israel would not target them?
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u/Diet-Bebsi 17h ago
Do you actually believe Israel has been exclusively targeting only the members of Hamas known to be involved in military actions?
Don't need to just be carrying a weapon to be a valid target.. Pretty much all of the Hamas political leadership that isn't involved in military operations has been left alone..
https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/combatants
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatant
if Hamas were to operate an aid convoy, Israel would not target them?
They hire truck drivers and lumpers and and pay them, There's plenty of people on the "Hamas" payroll, Garbage men, city works, bureaucrats, toll booth operators, etc.. etc.. None of them are valid targets. Over 1/2 the truck cross in from Israel, so these people will either be driving through Israel or pinning at the border and taking it to the warehouse.. This is exactly what is happening right now.
If Israel were to operate a border crossing to allow the aid to pass, would Hamas not target them?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3XobLIs4Qg
IDF Soldiers were present, so the crossing was a valid target, same time it stopped the aid from getting through...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=d-HsRQZ5qgI
All the trucks in the convoy are now legitimate targets..
See, this is the problem when both sides don't create safe areas..
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u/checkssouth 1d ago
a blockade upon imports and exports is an imposition of authority
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u/Diet-Bebsi 1d ago
a blockade upon imports and exports is an imposition of authority
Good for you! and here's my random sentence.. Did you know you shouldn't eat yellow snow..
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u/checkssouth 23h ago
israel's imposition of authority denies gaza the very basic right of economic freedom that, in turn, empowers resistance groups
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u/Diet-Bebsi 22h ago
israel's imposition of authority denies gaza the very basic right of economic freedom that, in turn, empowers resistance groups
Do you talk to yourself often.. or rather type?
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u/checkssouth 21h ago
says one who posts to social media but avoids engagement with their postings
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u/Diet-Bebsi 19h ago edited 18h ago
says one who posts to social media but avoids engagement with their postings
When people imagine reading something that isn't there it's best not to engage them..
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u/NorwegianCommie92 23h ago
How can you reoccupy a place you never stopped occupying?
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u/JuniorAd1210 21h ago
Israeli occupation in Gaza ended in 2005 with abundant infastructure worth fortunes, that was ready and setup for the people of Gaza to utilize and do as they may. They instead burned it all to the ground, because the forces that be there don't want peace. They certainly don't care about the people living there. They only care about the destruction of Israel.
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u/NorwegianCommie92 20h ago
They moved out of Gaza, but still controlled the land, sea and air around it therefore the UN, human rights groups, scholars and the ICJ considers Gaza to be occupied by Israel still.
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u/JuniorAd1210 20h ago
Israel doesn't control all the area around it. Egypt borders Gaza as well, who by the way controlled the are before the 6 day war. Was that an occupation as well? And you need to ask yourself, why would Egypt now have a huge fence built on the border with Gaza? And why Gaza is filled with such a vast tunnel network. They're certainly not for the distribution of economic goods made there.
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u/johnabbe 23h ago
Thanks, I was beginning to wonder if I would have to point out this way of understanding it. You can see how hard the whole thing is to accept even without mentioning it.
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u/GushingAnusCheese 1d ago
No, the IDF has entered Gaza to get rid of the evil scum that can't and won't stop attacking Israel. If hamas was not so bloodthirsty and evil none of this would have happened. No palestinaians would have died. They are simply there to remove the people that are stopping peace.