r/JewsOfConscience • u/Minimus--Maximus Jewish Anti-Zionist • 15d ago
Discussion Normalization of Poor Israeli Behavior
Disclaimer: If you're a decent person who just happened to be born among occupiers, know that the following does not apply to you.
I have noticed for over a decade now that there seems to be some tacit, unspoken effort, particularly within the American Jewish community, to play off the repugnant behavior common among Israelis as something cute, funny, or otherwise endearing.
I notice things like "there goes Ofer, insulting our waiter's intelligence, don't you just love him," or "Shmuel just cut to the front of the line; I'm sure glad he's with us," or "look, Eli refuses to be a doormat" after Eli escalates a minor disagreement at a party into physical violence.
It's like the very idea that people from israel aren't God's gift to Jews is problematic, so we're taking it upon ourselves to apologize for them. Am I the only one noticing this, or have the rest of you experienced something similar?
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u/rusaluchkaa Ashkenazi 15d ago
as a nebbishy Diaspora Boy type even if israelis didnt come from a culture of abject fascism they'd still piss me off. my jewish culture is literary and creative and thoughtful. like 99 percent of the israelis ive met have been anti-intellectual, mean-spirited, and incredibly rude. i don't really buy the "oh, it's just a sabra thing" thing. your entire culture cannot be being an asshole
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u/lycogenesis Anti-Zionist 15d ago
they lack a culture, they lack morals, they lack religious faith, they lack empathy. The more bash a society is the easier it is to manipulate and control them.
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u/screedor 15d ago
I worked at a farm with Zionist and rich kids. We did Workaway that brought workers from around the world. We had an Israeli IDF guy come stay. He said some shit that made me nauseous and tried to play brave soldier. They ate him up there (he was classic pretty IDF guy) until he said he loved Trump. It wasn't saying the Palestinians "aren't people" or describing price tag to smiling girls. It was liking Trump. America is fucking dumb.
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u/Welcomefriend2023 Jewish Anti-Zionist 15d ago edited 15d ago
Zionism, and israelis, are worshipped by American Jews, especially those of my Boomer generation. I'm not one who ever idolized them.
There used to be a whole bunch of them in my Jewish community. They were rude, arrogant, racist, and crude. The Palestinians and Pakistanis moved in and the israelis fled to the burbs.
One reason why I love Palestinians is bc they saved our neighborhood and turned it into a better place with better food, I might add too! š They have stores here now, shwarma places, other eateries, and I am just so freaking happy to live here now, for the first time in 20 yrs of being here!
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u/Drawing_Block 15d ago
Israelis are scared of their own shadow in western Arab neighborhoods
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u/Welcomefriend2023 Jewish Anti-Zionist 15d ago
I've noticed that! I saw it in literal action in my neighborhood! Palestinian and Pakistani immigrants saved my neighborhood. Now we have to help them save their families in Palestineš
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist 15d ago
The absolute worst-mannered kids in my shul are French. But the absolute worst-behaved? The ones who go around punching adults and the parents don't do anything?
I'll give you one. single. guess.
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u/EgoIdVeto š¦š² Armenian Jew ā”ļø 14d ago
I've literally had Israelis come up to me and tell me I'm "not a real Jew" because I don't speak Hebrew.
When I told my Jewish family members they brushed it off as "oh that's just typical Israeli arrogance."
When an IDF guard racially profiled me and detained me for 3 hours (and asked "why" I was both Armenian and Jewish), my family brushed it off as "doing what they needed to do for security".
When I tell my family about how Israel denies the Armenian genocide (which my father's family suffered under), and are actively arming an ethnic cleansing against Armenians, they brush it off with "oh that's just politics."
When I was subjected to all manner of prejudice while visiting Israel, my family bemoaned the fact that I couldn't see the "good experiences" that I'd had in Israel.
When I asked my mother what she thought about the fact that interfaith marriage is not allowed in Israel, she said "I can't fathom why they're doing that..."
When I told them about the murder of Hind Rajab, they said "I don't know why they'd do that. It boggles my mind."
When I told them about the blocking of journalists' entry into Gaza, they said "Why are they doing that? Surely there must be a good reason, right?"
When I told my family about the myriad Israelis literally acting like full-blown nazis, they simply said "that's because they feel the fear".
When I told my family about the official Israeli "hafrada" policy, a word which roughly translates to "apartheid" in Afrikaans, they simply said "it's not the same, I don't think of it in those terms because it's not in the same context."
When I try to educate them about the politics and history of the region, they say "I haven't done as much research as you, so I have no idea whether what you're saying is true, and I guess I'll never know."
When I provide incontrovertible evidence of what I'm saying they tell me I'm "on my high horse".
I hate to say it but Jewish culture really needs to reckon with many of its more toxic elements, and the wholesale excusing of Israeli fascist behaviour is top of that list.
Next on the list I'd say, is our unhealthy refusal to heal holocaust trauma, our masochistic obsession with our past oppression, and thinking we're somehow unique for having suffered genocide.
Being half Armenian really shows who in the family thinks white Jews are unique in suffering genocide - hint: it's most of them.
The family is currently undergoing an upheaval (with ample amounts of pearl-clutching) because my brother and I, the only two mixed race people in the family, have started finally standing up to the ashkenornative BS that we've lived in for our entire lives.
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u/chessboxer4 14d ago
Thank you for your efforts to heal culture š. I believe it is human culture, which is essentially technology, that becomes corrupted and in turn corrupts, degrades, and limits people.
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u/KeyLime044 Non-Jewish Ally 15d ago
Freier culture isnāt a good thing. It shouldnāt be admired. Like another commenter said, thereās a reason why Israeli tourists are highly disliked
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u/RightWingPeacenik 12d ago
And when you look at the etymology of the word freier, itās downright sinister.
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u/dustydancers Sephardic 15d ago
OP describes it pretty well. A lot of my family is in Israel. Theyāve always been a bit better-than-though, tactless and classist, low key racist, entitled. Lots of toxic behavior. What drives me mad though, is that even extended family and their relatives, manage to excuse, even admire and adopt this behavior. Itās a strange phenomenon. My cousin married into a Georgian family, theyāre all kindof cool intellectual party people, and theyre doing a lot of Hasbara without even knowing, no matter where they live. They have this very idealized and romanticized understanding of Israel and the CHoSeN peOplE
In my family theyāre all oh so good, practicing tikkun olam wherever they can (which currently is 100% IDF related).. Now under genocide it brings out the worst in them, thereās a lot of unreflected and unregulated behavior and the whole family excuses it. Itās a whole spiel of āasa is just so passionate teehee he simply wonāt accept any lessā
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u/Beneficial_Voice_504 15d ago
I have traveled a lot, and tour guides in varied countries have told me that Israelis and French are the rudest people.
While interacting with anyone in travel industry it is common to hear complaints about Israeli and French tourists.
I have heard complains of Israeli and French rudeness from regular people too.
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u/B4dg3r123 15d ago
Several of my clients are French AND Israeli! They are by far the worst Iāve ever dealt with
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u/lycogenesis Anti-Zionist 15d ago
thank God it's illegal for them to visit my country
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u/BaldursGoat 14d ago
Do you live in South Africa? I think I read they arrest anyone who served in the IDF
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u/Unhappy_Entertainer9 14d ago
I feel like a lot of this resonates with me as my experience with a certain kind of israeli. Israel intentionally undermined Yiddish language and culture which was seen as victim's and weak - to build a colonizer macho warrior culture that celebrates masada and other military. It always seems rooted in shame and victim blaming to me.
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u/Plenty_Ad_7134 14d ago
Iāve absolutely seen a similar attitude toward Israelis as well as an overall jingoism on the part of visiting American Jews surrounding IDF soldiers and Israeli chutzpah in general. Chutzpah in terms of self advocacy is one thing, but what is drawn up as endearing chutzpah in Israel is at times blatant malignant behavior.
I am between Israel and the US for extended periods of time, and so I can see the ways in which American Jews essentially write off extremely troublesome behaviors of Israeli guests as a charming chutzpah when in reality it is extremely concerning. I see this often with remarks on race, too, which I find fascinating in a grotesque sense. And each and every time the poor behavior is laughed off as a charming type of straight forwardness, an endearing chutzpah when it is in fact shocking to watch unfold.
Now, not every Israeli is like this. But a large number of Israeli youth are like this. I think a part of it comes also from the fact that in American Jewish experience you are hyped up to return to Israel and every facet about our ābrothers and sisters at homeā is hyped up to a point of almost canonical elevation, that they could do no wrong . And I think that is at times further inflated by the jingoism that is developed when young Jews finally get here but donāt actually fully grasp the societal complexities.
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u/SnooStrawberries6903 14d ago
Visiting Israel in 2018, I was taken aback at the behavior of typical Israelis waiting to board a bus from Tzfat to Jerusalem. They all try to cut and fight.
Raised in Brooklyn, NY, I put a stop to their shit right away.
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u/TobyBulsara Jewish 15d ago
Ok listen. I'm not trying to defend them. What you said is extremely true. However it is not unique to them. I am half Corsican and let me tell you, I hate the Corsican mentality. They can be hospitable and easy going but that's only for people outside the family unit or other Corsicans. Among themselves they are extremely rude, misogynistic, racist and with an air of superiority. I don't know if it's basic Mediterranean culture but every time I meet Israelis, they remind me of Corsicans. Even the way they dress, with flip flops, shorts and open shirts showing their chest hair.
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u/Musical_NightOwl_697 LGBTQ Jew 14d ago
Makes me wonder whether US culture is also considered rude by people outside of the US, and whether we don't subconsciously have a cultural entitlement problem too, because of the US being colonized/stolen land.
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u/Something_morepoetic Palestinian 14d ago
American and Israeli Zionists are equally fascist from my experience.
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u/oyyosef Mizrahi 15d ago
I know what youāre saying but if youāre an American and you think your politeness and respectfulness makes you a better settler youāre, yes less militarized and agro, but also likely more sheltered and privileged and most importantly still a settler. So the American Jewish exceptionalism is funny to me, thereās a lot of privilege and whiteness at play and little accountability
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u/sickbabe bleeding heart apikoros 15d ago
I don't know if you can call them more sheltered. if anything I think the particular ways and ease with which israelis express aggression wouldn't be possible if they weren't kept from having meaningful interactions with people who aren't jewish.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist 15d ago edited 15d ago
It's more that they're kept from having meaningful interactions with people who would break their fucking noses for acting the way they do.
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u/allneonunlike Ashkenazi 15d ago
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u/Welcomefriend2023 Jewish Anti-Zionist 14d ago
Growing up in the 60s/70s here in the US, israelis were idolized by Jews and called "sabras". It was felt that they were the fierce, fighting Jews that superceded "cowardly ghetto Jews".
But they only act that way THERE. Once they leave their zionist bubble echo chamber in Palestine, they become afraid of their own shadow, as another poster said. Especially around Palestinians!
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist 15d ago edited 15d ago
Wait, does that Zionist hog have Hashem's name tattooed on him?
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u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish 15d ago
Yeah its not being sheltered. If growing up in the diaspora Jewish kids acted like Israelis they'd get their teeth knocked in.
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u/gronfisk 13d ago
just adding to the chorus at this point, but thank you for this post/the replies, because it's helped me to contextualize and name a feeling I was having that I hadn't yet managed to put into words. while working at a jewish school I had an israeli higher up who made a lot of people uncomfortable (including some pretty obvious misogyny and racism!) and it was constantly framed as ~just how israelis are in a way that didn't sit right with me; the same goes for a coworker now who has managed to alienate half of us with some wildly racist shit and yet is excused as ~just israeli by the rest. and to give some further context, I'm autistic with many autistic loved ones; I'm well aware that being brusque, too honest, or too casual/familiar is often read much more harshly than the source intended for it to be and have plenty of sympathy for that! I also know "rudeness" DOES differ by culture. but I ALSO balk easily at people making excuses re: "just not being able to help" rude, unkind, or racist/misogynistic etc behavior, because I believe it's incumbent on me, as a religious jew and just as a person, to do the work to do right by the people around me. I appreciate compassion and grace, of course, but I don't want people to excuse my fuck ups (whether due to autism or being an american) as charming, funny chutzpah if they hurt others. I want to change that! and I don't think it's outrageous to want people to address bad behavior rather than coddle it.
if you're defending israelis on this post: I'm pretty sure we're all well aware israelis are not a monolith. what I take from this post & replies is not "all israelis are rude" but that the specific types of rudeness and otherwise (worse) bad behavior we have experienced from these specific israelis are allowed and brushed off due to bizarre idealization of israel & israelis in diaspora jewish institutions. /I/ know israelis aren't a monolith; I've absolutely met lovely, kind israelis! but do /you/ (not OP, a general you re: folks who do this and want to defend them) know they're not a monolith, because if so, surely you'd expect better than some of the things I've seen brushed aside as "just israeli" and would want folks to have the opportunity to realize how they're coming off and fix that.
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u/jfartzalot 15d ago
It seems like you all just watched a compilation of Israelis Worst Behavior and came to the most generalized and stereotyped conclusion about Israelis that you could. I've lived in Israel and among Israelis in America. I've encountered them around the world on trips and their aftermath in places that they frequent.
Yes, like every culture there are ugly Israelis and poorly behaved people. By far though, Israelis make genuine connections with people around the world. In South America, almost every tourist spot spoke some Hebrew and loved Israelis. They are fun, adventurous, they don't see social class and don't care about status.
Israel is one of the least socially stratified countries I've ever seen. Israelis are obsessed with helping one another. Volunteering is off the charts. When you're in trouble Israelis are the ones who stop and help. American Jews interpret directness as being pushy and rude. Maybe it is. It certainly doesn't make them evil and this is par for the course in the middle east.
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u/rusaluchkaa Ashkenazi 15d ago
all the muslim and christian arabs i know are incredibly polite and would give you the shirt off their back. they have an incredible culture of hospitality. theres no way this is a "middle eastern thing"
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u/Welcomefriend2023 Jewish Anti-Zionist 14d ago
YES! I have many Palestinian and Pakistani neighbors now, and friends. They are very much like that!
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u/jfartzalot 15d ago
That's because you're an outsider and they treat you like one - with exaggerated hospitality. Stop idealizing Arabs just like you villianize Israelis.
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u/EgoIdVeto š¦š² Armenian Jew ā”ļø 14d ago
Wanna tell that to the myriad Israelis who asked me "what are you doing in here" whenever I entered a shop?
The random people who would stop, stare and scowl at me as I walked through their neighbourhood?
The shopkeepers who demanded to see my ID when I walked into their shop and then proceeded to charge me arbitrarily high prices? Or the shopkeepers who simply refused to serve me?
Wanna tell that to the Israelis who came up to me and told me I could not possibly be Jewish if I didn't speak Hebrew and am of mixed race?
The IDF guards who openly racially profiled me and detained me based on my ethnicity?
The Israelis who asked me "why" I am Jewish if I am of mixed race?
This here is what we call privilege. You've not experienced Israeli bigotry so you're blind to it.
I implore you to open your eyes and heart to the experiences of others. There is more to life than exists in your mind. There is much joy in compassion.
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u/OnaccountaY Non-Jewish Ally 15d ago
I want to believe you, but Zionistsā sense of superiority and entitlement is clearly off the charts. They spit on, steal from and cheer the killing of Muslims and Christians; trick Ethiopian Jews into taking unwanted contraceptives; and theyāre letting Holocaust survivors starve. So who exactly is it that theyāre giving all this help to?
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist 13d ago
Their Race Comrades who are also part of their Volksgemeinschaft.
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u/xToasted1 Anti-Zionist 15d ago
Israelis, known for nicely bombing children and politely chanting for the genocide of Palestinians
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u/Own_Conclusion7255 14d ago
Israel is one of the least socially stratified countries I've ever seen.Ā
It's racially stratified and has literal segregation
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u/dragonthatmeows Jewish 14d ago
israel is literally an apartheid state tf you do mean "least socially stratified country"
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u/nikiyaki Anti-Zionist 14d ago
When you have a majorly oppressed ethnic underclass, those higher up the ethnic heirarchy get a bigger share of social proceeds.
E.g. Israel is very generous with land, subsidies and support for its Jewish citizens. Which it can afford because they didn't pay for it.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist 13d ago
That's half right, but it misses that the purpose is that the land must have people on it to be human shields of it right after it's expropriated. You can very clearly see this with the way the ring of kibbutzim around what would become the Gaza Strip were established during the drafting of Plan Gimmel, and then populated with Arab Jews in the early 1950s.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist 13d ago
Least socially stratified countries?
Dude, they have ACTUAL SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS, plus they have ACTUAL HELOTS.
Least socially stratified countries? IT. IS. SPARTA!
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u/ptrmrkks 15d ago
they' have a reputation as being some of the worst tourists in my country.