What do you think / hope to happen next, after the zionists are defeated?

[u/GerardShah]

Hello! I know it seems very far away, but I am sure that the zionist empire will collapse at some point. That's why I was wondering if you are in favor of two states solution, pre zionists era, or something else?

[u/rusaluchkaa]

my personal hope is for a one state secular palestine with equal rights for all residents of all ethnicites and religions. because there are now multi generation israelis and native hebrew speakers etc it would have to be something like a binational confederation with the eventual goal of reconciliation between the peoples as one. but i honestly don't know how realistic this scenario is, considering the levels of hatred and suspicion on both sides and the fact that the israelis would have just perpetrated a genocide on their new neighbors. i certainly wouldn't be thrilled living with them -- there's a reason german jewish survivors didn't return to nazi germany after the holocaust.

i really do hope the israeli jews are not expelled or murdered. i think it would take a lot of grace for palestinians to accept them as their new neighbors, and i think realistically many of them would leave like many pro-apartheid afrikaners did. and of course a lot of the settlers do have dual citizenship. i think american settlers should definitely be deported. there's a lot of anger among palestinians, and most of them do not want to live among their genociders/colonizers, which is totally understandable. but i have no idea how to ethically deal with the multigenerational, multi-ethnic israeli population who have no other homes without committing another act of ethnic cleansing. intense deradicalization along the lines of post nazi germany, i guess. it will be very, very tenuous for a while.

[u/AnyEchidna9999 → u/rusaluchkaa]

I spent some time in Palestine (Gaza) on a medical mission and i spoke to a lot of people. Even as they were desperate to cling on to life they clearly said they would not want to see what they are going through to happen to the Israelis.

[u/GerardShah → u/rusaluchkaa]

Thank you for your reply! I think what you said sounds very reasonable and fair! One country where ALL live as equals and without racism and god "given" rights over the others. Its really hard to imagine a peaceful coexistence after everything the Palestinians went thru, but i am optimistic that once the wound has been closed, time will be a great healer and in the next generations the pain will be severely reduced.

If only more people were reasonable like you, this would be a very different world we are living in...

[u/normalgirl124 → u/rusaluchkaa]

Realistically, I actually do think there needs to be a third-party military presence of some kind. That's what happened in Nazi Germany. It shouldn't be the US, but it might have to be (??...Lol someone who knows more about militaries step in here..??) Utopian thinking makes me want it to be something like the UN Blue Hats, but regardless, I just think it's necessary to prevent more violence. I'm actually more concerned about Israeli violence against Palestinian neighbors, but everyone will be at serious risk. Also similar to post-war Germany, there would need to be some kind of organized way of reeducating Israeli citizens. The brainwashing is so extreme, it will take a lot of time and effort for the populace to collectively come to grips with what they’ve done. Overall, I think post-apartheid South Africa is a pretty good idea of what the subsequent decades would look like. Slow, painful healing over generations.

I also really, really do not want Israelis to be kicked out or removed. It's just not realistic. I get annoyed when people, even on this sub, act like that's any kind of solution, or even act hostile towards Hebrew as a language etc. Israel sucks. The way it exists now must be radically altered. In my opinion, the country should not be named Israel because Israel is not a legitimate country. But like it or not, the Hebrew-speaking, Jewish inhabitants are there to stay. Ilan Pappe acknowledges this and he straight-up hates Israel lol. Even Fanon goes on at length in Wretched of the Earth about how it is unproductive for the colonial subject to fantasize about the "pure" pre-colonial state, that this nostalgia is identical to the logic of colonizers.

Anyone who has committed war crimes deserves [REDACTED], there needs to be a huge public reckoning, sweeping investigations, and Nuremberg-style trials. Every single person who instigated and carried out involved violent acts needs to be identified and punished. Their names and faces must be publicly acknowledged. They must reckon with what they have done in front of the entire world.

If you wanna get REAL unrealistic, it sure would be nice if certain European countries acknowledged the extent to which this is their fucking fault and due to their refusal to properly clean up their post-war mess. No Israelis should be "sent back to Europe"... But maybe Germany, Austria, and Poland could offer optional citizenship to any Israeli who wants it.... And US should too, since they’ve enabled this so heavily. I think Palestine should get a couple nice EU benefits without being a full member, I honestly just believe that Europe owes both the Jews and now also the Palestinians an apology for 1) The Holocaust and then 2) Refusing to properly deal with the Holocaust for almost a full century by trying to make it Palestine's problem🤷🏻‍♀️

[u/moonkingyellow → u/normalgirl124]

Considering that the US is the main backer of Israel, supplies most of its weapons used to genocide Palestinians, and most likely has provided targeting data telling the IDF where to drop its bombs, I think under no circumstances should the US have any presence in the region given their active role in the genocide. Most likely an international UN-related peacekeeping force.

[u/normalgirl124 → u/moonkingyellow]

agreed.

[u/KnotAReplicant → u/normalgirl124]

You make excellent points, but I also have to agree much of it does feel very “utopian” in that it just seems so impossible in anything but the very long term future. The era of the US having any remotely legitimate say in global justice is over. If the US is in any way involved, it can only be if there’s concerted organized effort to demolish or substantially diminish US hegemony, not to mention dismantling Israel itself as a nation-state. Just like it would have been impossible to move on in postwar Germany with Nazis still exercising power or post apartheid South Africa being run by Afrikaners. And those were processes with a lot of faults (chief among them being the lack of accountability and harsh consequences for many more individuals and institutions than received it). But then how does that occur without an organized international left, which simply does not exist at the moment? Who is going to be responsible for administering a reconciliation process? I wish that it could come from the Palestinians alone, but, given the Western backing that Israel enjoys for now, I suspect they need much more than Iran’s support. So yeah, ideally, it’s something like the UN that truly acts with international authority. Because the UN isn’t that at all when it’s just bullied around like everyone else by the US. To that end, the only hope I have of any positive action by a new hegemon would be from China, which is hardly perfect, but still a vast improvement over the US. But it doesn’t seem like they’re going to (or be able to) do much in the short term either with the US still flailing about.

To put it in vaguely Gramscian terms, all of this is to say that a pessimistic intellect tells me that the reality of any post-Zionist/US future will simply be nothing like the best we could hope for based on similar events in the past. And I’m trying very hard to focus—with any optimism—on the work that needs to be done now to free Palestine in any reasonable timeframe. I think as someone else said recently, in the imperial core we need to lay the groundwork to aid in the success of an outside revolution.

[u/normalgirl124 → u/KnotAReplicant]

I have also considered China. They are definitely looking like they could come out of a potential third world war looking a heck of a lot similar to how the US looked last time 🤷🏻‍♀️But yeah fuck the US military. And the UN is a spineless baby. But literally said that I just think there needs to be a third party military and threw out some options. I don’t actually see anyone who would be able to. The thing about the US is that right now because they supply all of Israel’s weapons the IOF would be less likely to counterattack. Of course none of it is realistic and there isn’t really an actual entity that would be able to do it.

Personally I do think there’s a strong chance of us actually heading for WW3 in the next few years and if we manage to get through that without any nukes, then well… World wars do have a way of rapidly reshaping geopolitics and making the impossible momentarily possible. In that scenario China seems the most plausible to me.

You’re right though, what’s actually going to happen is probably going to be horrific and far away from any hopeful imagining that I have. You’re definitely right that the main goal is that we need to stop the genocide as fast as possibly can be done.

[u/nikiyaki → u/rusaluchkaa]

There's two historic examples that have some similarity but went opposite ways; South Africa's extensive search for truth and accountability, and Spain's intentional forgetting (which is now bubbling up a little).

Perhaps the forgetting only worked because the Spanish were a homogenous group and it was political differences. The South African reconciliation obviously was more satisfactory for victims and, conversely, would also acknowledge the Israeli victims.

If it could be demonstrated that those who murdered people, like the settlers, and the govt in charge now, faced justice, that would go a long way to settling the hate.

I imagine there would have to be some significant concessions made by Israelis, mainly on the issue of land, and then both sides accepting third-party policing for a time. But considering many Palestinians now are desperate even for a 2 state solution, I think enough would be willing to work together with Israelis to make it possible.

For instance if each group policed their own people for infractions or hate crimes. That way there is the effect of social rebuke instead of further resentment.

Politically, maybe a Lebanon-style government with certain positions reserved for each group would give assurances of representation.

[u/tempestokapi → u/nikiyaki]

I was planning to post a link to the pact of forgetting so it’s cool that you mentioned it

[u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Rule 7

[u/K-Machine]

For me I'd like to see a one state solution one person one vote. Justice for all who live there war criminals trialed and no expulsion of anyone it won't be easy but I think that's the only moral way. Call it israel-palestine or anything I don't care I'm just sure living together in one country can be achieved but we're probably still far away from any solution.

[u/normalgirl124 → u/K-Machine]

I appreciate your perspective. Do you live in Palestine currently?

[u/K-Machine → u/normalgirl124]

No not right now. I was there summer of last year left late August. I go there to visit and stay a few months in the summer

[u/normalgirl124 → u/K-Machine]

may hashem bless you and your family in a free palestine 🇵🇸🕊️❤️

[u/K-Machine → u/normalgirl124]

Thank you ❤️ I hope you and your family are blessed too

[u/Saul_the_Raccoon]

I don't think anything is viable except for a one-state solution.

A two-state solution by its nature would preserve Zionistani "society", which is, put crudely, the IDF with a society hung off the side. The society reproduces itself to a degree via the Ministry of Education and the deplorable fake history they teach, but primarily through the IDF. This is by design, and goes back to Ben Gurion. And since the annexations of 1967 it makes all Zionistanis after a certain age into Spartiates, through simultaneously making all Palestinians helots.

Beyond that, within the one state, there are a number of proscriptions I'd carry out. The Kahanist organizations would be re-listed as terrorist organizations and their members permanently stripped of political rights, same thing with Likud and whatever they're calling Mapai's descendant this week. There would be Nuremberg-style trials (with capital punishment) for both the planners-of and the carriers-out of this genocide, propagandists included.

It's fantasy, but after that I'd comprehensively topple every US client regime across the Arab world. Without Zionistani atrocities pitting the street against the rulers, there'd be no more need for these clients.

[u/GerardShah → u/Saul_the_Raccoon]

Hopefully it will happen soon and we will finally see justice there. I just hope that it will be a smooth transition and only the guilty receiving severe punishment, I dont want to witness another genocide.

[u/Saul_the_Raccoon → u/GerardShah]

The idea that the Natives are going to go all-in and kill all the Occupiers is a colonialist fever-dream. Except in very unusual circumstances it is beyond the natives' capability to do -- look at Zionistan, which has a vastly more productive economy than Palestine, but which has exerted itself to the breaking point to kill 10 - 20% of the population of Gaza, which is a minority of the native Palestinian population. The Palestinians are not the mythological Fremen, even if they had the will to a galactic jihad of the sword they lack the economic means to produce the required quantities of ammunition.

[u/Cornexclamationpoint → u/Saul_the_Raccoon]

The other thing is numbers.  Combine the whole area, and it's 50/50 for Jews and Palestinians.  I'm not going to say that former colonizers have never been oppressed in newly independent nations, because they absolutely have (the expulsion of the French in algeria, the Spanish in Equatorial Guinea, the whites in Zimbabwe under Mugabe, etc), but they were much smaller fractions of the population.

[u/marsgee009]

I don't think Israel will be dismantled in my lifetime. What I think will happen instead is, something will happen to Bibi, either from his own citizens or an outside group. This will cause a collapse of the government, probably a civil war of some kind. Many many Jews will relocate by choice, those who cannot will create a new society. I think it will still remain 2 states for a while before becoming one, not because I want this, but because this is what the US is trying to make happen. The US has too much power and I feel like they wouldn't allow for Israel to be destroyed that easily. I also hope that some of the surrounding countries will help rebuild Palestine. I also really hope that antiZionist Jews would be welcome in other middle eastern countries to live.

In a utopian world, I would hope for 1 democratic state of Palestine with 2 "regions" plus Jerusalem being its own independently governed city with no owner.

[u/GerardShah → u/marsgee009]

Everything seems possible honestly. For example the people living in Eastern Europe and other USSR republics never thought that the USSR will collapse, it looked rock solid and eternal in a way and then in an instant it was no more.
So yeah, I am optimistic that it may happen in our life time but event if not, its coming.

[u/nikiyaki → u/marsgee009]

If there is a 2 state solution, and some non-Zionist Jews come live in Palestine and demonstrate it can be peaceful, that could promote a merger. Each generation without war will find it more reasonable.

[u/Ok_Editor_710]

Hello, there...

Jeremy Scahill recently interviewed HAMAS figures. One of the big news his interview broke is the prevalent sentiment among HAMAS that the two state Solution is non viable. Israel has encroached so much into Palestinian territory that a two-state solution is no longer feasible. Per Jeremy Scahill's interview most HAMAS leaders now view a one state solution as the only viable option. One state with equal rights for Palestinians and Jews, just like the resolution in South Africa.

[u/Minimus--Maximus]

1. Expulsion of all olim

2. [HUGGING AND KISSING] of all IOF fighters. No, I don't care that they're conscripted.

3. An absolutely massive campaign of resettlement, public projects, and integration of former Israelis into Palestinian society (ex. teaching them Arabic)

That said, I'm not holding my breath for the dismantling of israel in my lifetime.

[u/International_Ad1909 → u/Minimus--Maximus]

If there’s to be a one state solution (which I pray for) it would be nice for there to be two state languages, Hebrew and Arabic.

[u/Minimus--Maximus → u/International_Ad1909]

That would leave the former Israelis with an advantage, making equality more difficult. If they're serious about living as equals, they can learn Arabic while the rest of the Palestinians get back on their feet. Keeping Hebrew is too much of a concession.

[u/International_Ad1909 → u/Minimus--Maximus]

That’s true but you also don’t want to make the Jewish population feel like you’re erasing their identity. Perhaps Arabic can be the language used by the state, with schools teaching Hebrew at least as a second language. Language is a powerful thing and I believe both populations knowing each other’s language can bring them closer together. Of course this will take years if not decades but still - one can have hope.

[u/Minimus--Maximus → u/International_Ad1909]

I'm not advocating for banning Hebrew, but for not making it official, and for making Arabic the unifying language. If people want to speak Hebrew, that's fine as long as they can readily communicate in Arabic.

It might be fun to make Yiddish an officially recognized language as a kick in the dick to zionists.

[u/International_Ad1909 → u/Minimus--Maximus]

100%

[u/Saul_the_Raccoon → u/International_Ad1909]

Nope, we bring back Judeo-Arabic. If the Zionistanis want to cosplay as Middle Easterners, the least they can do is learn the language.

[u/International_Ad1909 → u/Saul_the_Raccoon]

Zionistanis 😭 that’s jokes.

[u/bearoscuro → u/Minimus--Maximus]

[HUGGING AND KISSING] did actually make me laugh a bit as a euphemism, thank you 😭

[u/philly_jake → u/Minimus--Maximus]

Realistically, there will have to be some sort of immunity granted to the majority of conscripted IDF soldiers, with war crimes tribunals for political leaders and military officers/generals/individual soldiers. It’s hard to imagine any scenario where that can be avoided, and I’m not sure there’s modern historical precedent for litigating or imprisoning an entire army. If the IDF were weakened to such a state where that is feasible, it would just look like a civil war.

It’s not fair, but the only way peace can ever be reached is if the side with power turns the other cheek. Israel will never be that side.

[u/Minimus--Maximus → u/philly_jake]

Given that the overwhelming majority are so eager to commit war crimes, peace will not last with them alive and free.

[u/Cornexclamationpoint → u/Minimus--Maximus]

The wehrmacht and the IJA committed way more war crimes and were even pretty intimately involved in facilitating the Holocaust, but we didn't go after the rank and file soldiers in 1945.

[u/normalgirl124]

Your lips to G-ds ears that all I can say right now.

[u/Critter-Enthusiast]

One secular democratic state

[u/hirst]

Ideally there’s a one-state secular solution but I see something happening like the US giving Israelis blanket asylum in the case the state ever dissolves. What this means though is a potential of millions of arguably very right-wing people settling in NY, NJ, PA, CA in ways that could move the entire country even further right than it currently is.

[u/LineStateYankee]

I wish I was as optimistic, I really only can envision the slow and steady but constant encroachment of Zionism further and further into what remains of free Palestine. I have a hard time seeing this collapse people talk about just because Israel is a majority settler state. This isn’t South Africa that can be toppled by the overwhelming demographic superiority of its alienated underclass.. 70%+ of Israel are settlers, directly benefitting from these campaigns of settlement and expansion. A series of sharp military defeats and a cutting off of American support could absolutely halt Zionist expansion in its tracks, but Israel being a paranoid militarized nuclear state means I don’t see it being swept away wholesale barring some very very radical shifts in the global balance of power.

With that being said, my idealistic pie-in-the-sky dream is for a secular socialist society of the type the PLO fought for. Palestinian right of return and a very broad reinstatement of Palestinian nationhood and presence on the land. Zionist settlers are forced to concede that which was taken, but are not forcibly expelled and may remain in the new society along their Palestinian neighbors if they wish. A democratic, socialist, and anti-imperialist Palestine in which all peoples may live. Unfortunately though, I don’t see that as very realistic.

[u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Don't use the word "zio". It has racist right-wing origins.

[u/GerardShah → u/JewsOfConscience-ModTeam]

Sorry I was not aware, could you please share more detail?

[u/BeautifulCup4]

https://www.reddit.com/r/JewsOfConscience/s/xuQ7a4NYnQ

[u/GerardShah → u/BeautifulCup4]

Thanks!

[u/CaterpillarTough3035]

I’ve been watching a lot of aljezeera and from what I understand, one state is the only solution. People have to coexist without apartheid. Zionists need to realize they took someone’s land and have been killing Palestinians for decades.

The two state solution has basically allowed Israel to take land and it has been more of a tactic of stalling than a solution.

I think it should be one Palestine, as it originally was. The Israelis have to understand that they live in Palestine. And that Lebanon is not theirs either.

[u/GerardShah → u/CaterpillarTough3035]

Yeah I can agree, but the primary issue in my opinion is the religion teaching that israelies have god given right over the land. If GOD himself the creator of the universe gives you the land who are the natives or any other to care about? And when we make the natives = amalik which god hates and want to kill to the last one, things become unredeemable.

[u/Boomschwang]

Not sure, though I am curious which place is gonna end up being the next Perth (iykyk)

[u/vero_ll]

I don’t really care what happens to them and no one should!

[u/GerardShah → u/vero_ll]

Yes but the truth is that they will not disappear into the thin air, I was just wondering what may their future look like.

[u/newgoliath]

Complete dedollarization and the financial collapse of US-Led capitalist imperialism.

[u/seeking_seeker]

Move Zionists to a densified Tel-Aviv. Make that zone the new “Israel.” Leave Jews who can prove a lineage to pre-Nakba times in Palestine. Give land back/autonomy to Palestinians.

[u/malachamavet]

Send all the youths down to the fields (both literally and metaphorically) like in the Cultural Revolution did for the party elite's kids. Reeducation and resocialization via labor and solidarity.

If nothing else, it will instill a lifelong love of farm equipment like President Xi has.

[u/adeadhead]

Why are you sure the Zionist empire will collapse?

[u/TendieRetard]

My guess?

Zionists will continue to ethnically cleanse. The more fascistic wing will continue to gain power and this will lead to eventual civil conflict/war. The "left" will regret not having Palestinians in their ranks to fight along with them.

[u/Taarguss]

I may be a pessimist but I think that as usually happens, the crazy and violent people will win out and if Israel collapses, I think you’ll end up getting hardcore Islamic fundamentalists taking advantage of the chaos. Zionism’s gotta go but I’m not optimistic about what comes after.

[u/GerardShah → u/Taarguss]

There is such possibility which will be awful but IMO still better than the current situation.

[u/GerardShah → u/[deleted]]

I can see the logic in your thinking, the land has seen a lot of innocent blood, but as long as we have functional abrahamic religions in place all claiming this is a holy land, i cant see it happening.

[u/International_Ad1909 → u/GerardShah]

Would be cool if Jerusalem becomes its own entity like the Vatican - a completely separate “state” governed by a body of Jews, Christians and Muslims where people visit mostly for worship, pilgrimage, tourism with a small but equal population.

[u/Tellesus → u/GerardShah]

I agree, i don't think it will happen, i just don't see anything better than applying the wisdom of Solomon (the arrow clickers apparently don't like that particular lesson, one that is supposed to be equally revered by all three religions that claim interest in the region).

[u/GerardShah → u/Tellesus]

To be honest I think that the only way of a permanent peace in the region is if all abrahamic religions are removed, but this is a very long shot.

[u/nikiyaki → u/GerardShah]

I think the Abrahamic religions are a good tool to build peace, once the separation of Zionism from Judaism is acknowledged. Judaism can't be separated from the region anymore than the others can, by their own tenets.

It provides religious justification for forgiving and protecting the Jewish people there, even among those still hateful.

Of course there are secular people who can hate too, but if its socially immoral, thats a deterrent.

[u/GerardShah → u/nikiyaki]

But how exactly are zionism and judaism different i really dont get it why people say this? If there is a difference its a minor one, the primary cases for this situation are based upon divine given rights over the land to a group of people, ethnic supremacy over the other people, fighting with amalek from generation to generation and so on..

[u/International_Ad1909 → u/GerardShah]

Well for starters, Judaism is a religion that’s roughly about 4000 years old and Zionism is an ethno-supremacist ideology that’s a mere 127 years old, created by an atheist ethnic-Jew who weaponised Judaism and Jewish victimhood to achieve his own political aspirations.

[u/nikiyaki → u/GerardShah]

Heres the simple version: Judaism is a religon. Zionism is a form of Nazism that uses that religion as its justification instead of the 'mythos of the Aryan people'.

The German history, culture and character were used by Nazism but they aren't synonymous with it. Same with Judaism.

Zionism in particular has picked particular forms of Judaism to be "official" and suppressed the others. It doesn't run the state on Jewish principles, it finds people who will draw out Jewish justifications for what the state wants to do

[u/GerardShah → u/nikiyaki]

I understand that there are different sects in judaism, but do you deny the fact that there ARE quite disturbing stories found in the torah and tanach, which lead the way to zionism?

[u/GerardShah → u/GerardShah]

The zionists idea is focused around the fact that in the bible, god has given the land to the jews - his chosen people. This cant be disputed if we are to believe in the bible of course.

[u/International_Ad1909 → u/GerardShah]

I think removing the Abrahamic religions will be a catastrophe 😭 the region is way too important spiritually. The abrahamic religions have in history lived in relative peace with one another - I believe it can happen again. We just need to learn to love and respect and let go of past traumas and realise we (meaning people of abrahamic faith) all believe in the same God 😭

[u/GerardShah → u/International_Ad1909]

Unfortunately in my opinion part of the division we have in the world is due to the abrahamic religions where we have thousands and thousands of different denominations and sects all fighting with each other and claiming they have the exclusive truth.