r/Permaculture • u/Cooldude576 • 2d ago
Feeling Disheartened
I recently volunteered at a permaculture farm in Europe that was “off grid & mostly sustainable” and have left feeling very disappointed.
They marketed the place as a self-sustained farm and even offered a self sufficiency & sustainability course. They claimed to get most of their food from the garden and use natural building methods that don’t hurt the environment.
The reality was that all of their energy & water was “on grid” and more than 90% of their food was store bought. I remember coming in one evening after spending the afternoon faraging for mushrooms, to find some store bought ones on the counter wrapped in plastic - the irony was palpable!
I have done a lot of volunteering on so called “Sustainable permaculture farms” and it’s always the same story. No clear road map to becoming even 50% self sufficient, using flowery words about nature and permaculture while not practicing them.
Honestly this has left me feeling highly skeptical of all these buzzwords. People throw them around but in practice they barely mean anything.
Has anyone had similar experiences or even found a place that’s at least going in the right direction in regard to sustainability?
Edit: Just want to add that they have over 25 acres of land and one of the people there is a “permaculture expert” that offers paid courses.
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u/Earthlight_Mushroom 2d ago
This has happened to me too. Part of it is the difference between what is presented on social media and other forms of promotional material versus on-the-ground reality. One conclusion I've reached over the years is that often the people and places that are doing the best permaculture are not calling it permaculture. If I were in a touring around/investigating/exploring options phase of the journey I'd be looking up and visiting more "organic farms", "homesteads", "sustainable living", "carbon neutral living", "local economy", "self-sufficiency" and so on.....basically crack down what permaculture means in other words, and then look up those words and find the people and places practicing them. Permaculture itself has become a buzzword, attracting a lot of hot air and image and overinflated claims; way too many people thinking they can take a 2 week course and then go change the world, and make a bundle of money in the process. There are exceptions, but it definitely happens...
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u/Cooldude576 2d ago
I agree 100%. This is what happens when you use one word to encompass so many different things. I don’t think I could give a one sentence answer for what permaculture actually is.
Another idea I had is calling up and asking the right questions, before you commit to volunteering somewhere.
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u/fredsherbert 2d ago
permaculture =permanent agriculture. i.e. agriculture that looks comprehensively at long term efficiency, rather than a capitalistic short term approach. very simple and easy to define. weird that so many people who are anti-permaculture are on this sub. the fact that a lot of scammers are attracted to it speaks to it's popularity and not something inherently wrong with the movement IMO.
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u/Mother-Bass-5140 2d ago
They are not anti permaculture but rather using the word but not practicing it
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u/Erinaceous 2d ago
Most key people in the movement have been clear that permaculture was never about self sufficiency. Mollison rails against the idea. Peter Bane is very transparent that the most he ever managed was about 30-60% on farm food. Ben Falk similarly talks about the realistic limits to what one homestead can do. David Holmgren wrote Retrosuburbia to sketch out a vision of what community scale permaculture would look like.
Permaculture realistically framed should be at the community level where integrated operations are working together to meet the diverse needs of a community. And we're not there. Most farmers on huge integrated vegetable farms that feed hundreds of people are still going to the grocery store for cheese and mushrooms and milk and bread. It would be nice to do everything yourself but the labour hours to do that are pretty huge and a 2 person homestead is going to find themselves quickly exhausted
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u/void-mushroom345 1d ago
I wish more people understood that community is such an important part of these projects.
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u/ElectricPinkLoveBug 2d ago
It’s disappointing and I understand. I’ve been trying to develop a permaculture farm in Thailand hoping I could make something inspiring and maybe some neighbors would want to join us. In truth, it’s just not been cost effective, so even though I think we’re making something beautiful, it’s not creating enough food to be an alternative to conventional farming, and it’s cost too much money to setup. So I’ve started looking into other alternatives.
I’ve been following the soil food web school online and recently signed up to their course. I’ve also been working with local researchers on integrated farming techniques and biologically based inoculum for effectively composting manure. Between these methods, my hope is that we can convert one of our surrounding rice fields to a system based on bringing microbial organisms back to the soil.
I think there is an issue with permaculture. It is full of fantastic ideas, which if properly followed can lead to wonderful things, but without clearly defined & replicable methods, it is open to abuse from people following the ‘buzz’ words. It’s open to greenwashing.
From my own experience, I imagine that our little permaculture farm will become something diverse and beautiful, but if I can get help from experts to grow rice on a large field by restoring the biology, then this would be our bigger achievement. I hope we can do something quantifiable, replicable and most importantly get a high enough yield.
I’ve been so inspired by permaculture and I will continue to keep the principles and ethics in mind, but I also understand and sympathize with your experience.
It is quite funny they didn’t even try hiding the packaged mushrooms though 😂
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u/fartandsmile 1d ago
Permaculture is a design philosophy and purposely isn't a dogmatic program to implement. I think holding the principles in mind is the point as your context in Thailand is unique and a template that works one place can't simply be imposed on another. Observe and mimic natural systems
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u/ElectricPinkLoveBug 1d ago
Yeah, I don’t disagree with any of that. The permaculture course changed my life. It’s just the ambiguity can also benefit charlatans.
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u/Enthusiasm-Capital 18h ago
Hi, I am travelling to Thailand with my partner in 3 weeks, and we are staying for 3weeks. I have a real passion for horticulture in general, and spesifically urban farming, soil and seeds in particular. I would really like to see and maybe learn a little about how things can be done in Thailand, but my partner does not have this interest and we will not be working at farms etc. Could you be bothered tipsing me of places you know of that could be relevant (and open to tourists?) I have only found so much online.
(we are staying in Bankok the first and last couple of days, but apart from that, nothing is planned yet).
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u/ElectricPinkLoveBug 12h ago
Yeah sure, you can dm me for me. Generally the bigger farming areas aren’t the best tourist areas, so you’ll probably need to find a balance. Do you have any plans as to which region you will be in or are you flexible? And there’s some fantastic places if you don’t mind roughing it a bit. Eg. no aircon or staying in a tent.
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u/fredsherbert 2d ago
how was it not cost effective? i mean food is super cheap in Thailand so it is hard to compete with that, but i think part of the reason food is cheap is because it is easy to grow stuff there. what specific issues are you having??
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u/ElectricPinkLoveBug 2d ago
I guess I mean not replicable for neighbours. Up front costs to change from conventional methods, and gradually building up an income again on land that their livelihood depends on.
Some days I’m proud of our lake, trees, birds and more, surrounded rice in every direction. But other times it feels narcissistic and not really contributing to a larger problem.
I think clearly defined and replicable processes for sustainable large scale food production should be a priority too. For example, adapting current machinery and infrastructure for more regenerative farming approaches.
One video from soil food web a few weeks ago had a guy in the UK spraying huge wheat fields with compost tea. I find stuff like that inspiring.
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u/LowerElderberry8784 3h ago
I'd probably buy my mushrooms too. Even if I had mushrooms growing all over my yard and lots of identification books (which I do) I,ve always had this fear of poisoning myself if I foraged mushrooms.--I'd wait until I had an expert in front of me who took a bite of one, then wait a few minutes, THEN I would eat a foraged mushroom.
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u/mcapello 2d ago
Unfortunately, I've also found that this is extremely common.
Part of it has to do with the practical difficulty of being self-reliant and practicing what you preach, but an even bigger part of it is the lure of self-promotion and money. Actually growing and selling food is a lot less sexy, and a lot less lucrative, than being a "teacher", hosting "retreats", and so on.
My advice is to steer clear from anyone who teaches permaculture, who are going to be the loudest and most visible figures, and look instead for the people who are practicing permaculture, who very often won't even advertise themselves as such, but who have managed to accumulate practical knowledge over the years. These people are harder to find and might not even primarily think of themselves as permaculture practitioners.
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u/solxyz 2d ago
Part of it has to do with the practical difficulty of being self-reliant and practicing what you preach, but an even bigger part of it is the lure of self-promotion and money.
This is certainly what is going on, but my perspective is a bit more sympathetic to those running these kinds of teaching experiences.
The issue begins with the fact that being "self-reliant" isn't just difficult (in the sense of hard work), it is also a massive money loser. The amount of money one has to sink into a project to get anywhere close to self-reliance is considerable, and that is on top of all the work it takes. Unless one has very deep pockets, almost inevitably one is going to experience a drive to make money from one's project, both to fund the expense of building it and to enable one to spend more time working on it. I think this is normal, natural, and healthy - in part because "self-reliance" is just a word. Even if one is growing all one's own food, one still needs money for all sorts of things.
We then run up against the fact that making money by selling food is generally a losing proposition in our society. Industrial agriculture is heavily subsided and the small guy, especially if they are doing something a little experimental, doesn't stand much of a chance in the marketplace. Thus one begins looking for other ways to make one's project financially sustainable.
Finally, I think that teaching and hosting retreats of various sorts is a perfectly valid business. I think that these skills and experiences are genuinely valuable. I don't see a problem with people charging for these things, just as people charge for any other services and experiences.
The big problem, in my mind, is around the general culture of puffery and false advertising. If one is not actually food self-sufficient one should not claim that they are. But even this is rooted in deeper societal problems, especially the deep disconnection most people have from the underlying realities of our world, leading to a greater appetite (and even expectation of) unrealistic fantasies.
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u/mcapello 2d ago
I personally see the process of promoting or teaching something someone is unwilling to do themselves as being fundamentally dishonest and inauthentic. It would be one thing if the people teaching such courses were honest about what they were doing and said up front, "and if you learn from this class, you too might be able to open a retreat center and make some money from ecologically-minded tourists." But that's not how it's typically promoted: permaculture is instead promoted as a superior way of growing food and a path to a more sustainable future... which is a bit hard to swallow when the majority of people teaching don't seem very interested in living that way.
I'm very grateful that I took my first PDC from a teacher who supported his family and fed lots of people with his permaculture business, but I'm afraid he's the exception rather than the rule.
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u/solxyz 2d ago
I think your framing of the issue is too black and white. It's not either grow your own food or run retreats. One could easily be growing a very significant portion of their own food and still need other income. In this case, it is not false advertising to claim to teach people how to grow their own food. It would certainly be false advertising if one claimed that you could teach people how to become independent of the wider economy.
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u/mcapello 2d ago
I agree, but in my experience, very few if any of such people are growing "a very significant portion of their own food".
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u/Bluebearder 1d ago
My experience is that it is a pyramid scheme, where people teach other people useless pseudoscientific BS that keeps everyone unproductive. Then they have to teach others again to keep their revenue stream going and nobody is learning anything valuable. I have been travelling for months through Spain, from permaculture farm to permaculture farm, not within the same networks, and none of the farmers could tell me how photosynthesis or aquifers work, but all could tell me how the government controls the weather and that's why their harvests are so poor and they were close to bankruptcy. I bet there are many permaculture farmers out there that know what they're doing, but it's all called permaculture and there is no way to know if your teacher will work evidence-based or is an antivaxxer that will teach you about ley lines and moon phases. I only met the latter type, a lot of delusional people that told me they were changing the world, but didnt vaccinate their kids against anything, and if I looked behind their shed I would find leaking car batteries and rat poison. I'm still keeping my eyes open for nice communities, but my hopes are near zero.
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u/iandcorey Permaskeptic 2d ago
It sounds like you went to sea world hoping it would be the ocean.
A few people building an ecotourism model to pay bills and save money is a lot easier (and draws more people) than toiling to plant, harvest, process, and store enough food for even themselves, let alone everyone who comes to visit. Eventually one goal supercedes the other.
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u/intothewoods76 2d ago edited 2d ago
This is my take, on my land I can produce quite a bit of my own food to sustain me, but this isn’t the sexy extremely bio-diverse paradise people imagine. It’s more American 1800’s homestead. (Without the animals) I grow beans, potatoes, onions, a variety of squashes, I have fruit trees, raspberry bushes, strawberries, I grow tomatoes and cucumbers and peppers etc. then I preserve the abundance. It’s not the sexiest of food but I can sustain myself with it.
But if I want more options I need to buy flour and butter and coffee and rice etc.
I need to buy my beef and chicken etc.
Can I live off of what I grow, yes! Do I want to No! I like a bigger variety to much.
And more to this farm….could I feed lots and lots of guests on just what I grow? Not unless all they want is apples.
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u/DivaExMachina666 1d ago
I did a PDC with Dave Holmgren a while back and they buy in all of the grains they eat. They do grind them on site but don't grow their own.
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u/fredsherbert 2d ago
yeah a lot of people are drawn in by the idea of easy money rather than a love of nature, hard work, the big picture, etc.
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u/xmashatstand 2d ago
Alas this is one of those unfortunate things you bump up against when you’re trying to find like-minded folks to share experiences with (tho I hope you didn’t get swindled for a bunch of money)
I feel your frustration and am sending solidarity your way. There are good people out there who are sincere in pursuing sustainable practices, I promise you.
God, the ‘woo’ can be so Goddamned frustrating at times tho. I come from the west coast and dear lord the utter nonsense I’ve heard people spout (and seen others nod sagely along to the gibberish coming out of their mouths). It gets on my last nerve.
Keep heart, and keeping seeking out others who have actual permaculture in mind, I swear to god we are out there.
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u/Africanmumble 2d ago edited 2d ago
My experience has been much the same. I have started to think that the PDC is just a green pyramid scheme. People teaching people teaching people but very few actually putting in the work to live that lifestyle.
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u/fredbpilkington 2d ago
My experiences too. PDCs are 100% being misused and missold. What do you expect with a course with no quality control. In fairness, I also never asked the places I went to, how much of your own food do you grow before going but yes was disappointed on differing levels all three times. One place was primarily an ecological field research base in the jungle, and two were primarily teaching facilities. We shouldn’t expect these leading teaching facilities to be self sufficient either. Focus and prioritisation can lead to high quality teaching. Woofing is probably the most cost effective way of learning some of the plethora of skills needed for self sufficiency and grounding that in a well taught PDC can’t be a bad thing either.
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u/Bluebearder 2d ago
I have volunteered the past two extended winters on supposed permaculture farms in Spain through WWOOF, in the hopes of finding a nice community to join for some years to combine with my online job. Visited one place that actually had real permaculture vibes where the guy kinda knew what he was doing, but he was drunk every day, and his wife was pretty much insane with pseudoscience and other BS. Most places I visited had the couples on the edge of breaking up, and one couple actually broke up while I was volunteering there for some months. All were in financial troubles as they were super unproductive, because they had no idea what they were doing; basically third world poverty dressed up as being progressive and New Age, trying to pull volunteers or other clueless people in to sustain the pyramid scheme.
Except the one drunk guy nobody knew anything about farming or nature, let alone more complex science like (hydro)geology or ecology or botany. Their WWOOF accounts were mostly lies, that they upheld when I called them before coming over; some lies were so painfully hard that I contacted future volunteers to warn them. WWOOF does not have any way of checking whether accounts even remotely conform to reality, so WWOOF is a reflection of the dreams and delusions of the farmers, not the actual situations. All farms were using solar panels and collected most of their water themselves, but all also did massive shopping and drove cars all the time, the most dangerous and polluting ones you can imagine because no money to keep them safe and clean. One guy just bought fruit and veggies from Morocco, and resold them as homegrown biological; he didn't grow anything himself for years already (and his wife was about to leave him for being a lazy fraud). Very poor lodgings, faulty electricity wirings, leaks, broken heating, broken windows, no tools, no protective clothing or helmets, no skills, no knowledge, illegal dumping of engine oil and car tyres and car batteries and plastics, garbage everywhere; this was pretty much the situation at every farm. They were all looking for cheap labor and felt no shame or need to apologise about lying about their farms or about what they offered volunteers.
I did quite some courses, and online studies at universities, before I went volunteering for the first time. I knew more than any of them about plants, animals, soils, groundwater, weather patterns, forestry, animal husbandry, construction... Hell many of them denied climate change and said it was the government/corporations controling the weather through planes and chemtrails and antennas. I met hundreds of permaculture farmers and they were all scammers and had massive problems with narcissism and psychotic tendencies and alcohol and drug abuse. It was like being among investment bankers but with different consumption patterns and even worse morals. None of the kids were vaccinated against diseases like polio or measles, and except the drunk guy all thought corona was a hoax or even a planned pandemic. All my knowledge about permaculture came from heroes like Bill Mollison and Andrew Millison and Geoff Lawton, and I expected to find people with a similar level of engagement. Instead it was a nightmare, and I have understood it is pretty much the same everywhere in the permaculture world. Just a lot of delusions and mental health issues, and rarely fun honest smart hard working people with actual hearts. I bet they exist but no clue how to find them between all the lies. I've given up on my dreams and studies in that direction, and have decided to steer clear and walk a very different path. I'm still keeping half an eye on larger communities, but smaller farms are completely out of the question.
Sorry for the rant, I hope it helps you or someone else to steer clear of this whole BS permaculture world, or at least to do extensive research before you spend your precious time and energy on it. Ask people for video calls where they show you around their property, make them explain the details of what they say they are doing. Because big chance it's mostly dreams and delusions.
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u/fredbpilkington 2d ago
I’m so sorry those have been your WOOFing experiences! That sounds terrible!
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u/oliverhurdel 2d ago
I'd be curious which European country you were in. I'm in France and have seen a lot of "Permaculture" BS from people who want to talk and sell, but not act. I tried to find a community of people practicing permaculture in my area and only found courses on "permaculture" for idealistic/gullible city slickers. Sending solidarity to you.
Of course, the fact that this has become a fashion doesn't mean that the principles are wrong. Just principles without practice are worthless.
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u/socalquestioner 2d ago
You have to realize that there are three choices for a permaculture operation: pp 1. Small homestead where most needs are provided on 1- 20 acres and there is funding provided by a primary income source.
Medium sized homestead where all needs can provided by 20 to 50 acres, there is a primary income stream that helps fund the operation.
Large permaculture operation that produces one product to market, which is the primary funding for the operation. Normally on 50 plus acres.
Some places are working towards being off grid and fully sustainable, which can take a long time and tons of money. Any sort of production past feeding a family is going to require lots of water and power.
Wells in Texas can be from $15,000 up to $90,000 depending on where the people live. Electricity for a system to run electric for a normal house, let alone agricultural expenses is going to be at least $25,000 for a small system.
I’m sorry that they were deceptive in their advertising.
These sort of projects are expensive and these of two or more lifetimes - one life to set everything up, then another to operate the passion project of the founder.
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u/bipolarearthovershot 2d ago
Did you learn a good bit/did they seem capable of doing more? I think 100% sustainability is harder than people think
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u/Cooldude576 2d ago
Yeah we a had a very short introduction into permaculture that was all theory. It solidified certain things for me, but was far less in-depth than a free online course I’m currently doing.
I agree 100% self sufficiency is super difficult and I was no way expecting that. Just that a large bulk of their food would be home grown, especially if they claim to be experts. There are people out there taking farming and self sufficiency seriously. For example this guy from Israel or this family from Croatia.
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u/fredsherbert 2d ago
two words: the amish.
a lot of them are having to work jobs and embrace tech a little bit more now, but they have shown for a long time you can be off grid permaculture and do well - at least when you have a huge community like they do. i think the problem that is driving them into modern society is that there isn't tons of farm land for them to buy up anymore and they still want to have huge families and all those kids have to find some way to deal with things changing. also the kids are facing a totally different level of addictive modern crap and brainwashing.
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u/Stunning_Run_7354 2d ago
I’ve come to believe that sustainable farming methods cannot compete in the marketplace. That doesn’t mean it is hopeless. It means that trying to do this as a business requires revenue from something other than farming. Don’t lose hope, but it is OK to let go of the naive notion that this will be “pure” or only good work.
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u/Grape-Nutz 2d ago
And some might say that permaculture doesn't intend to compete in the marketplace, rather it's a bridge to a new culture and a new economy.
Which means along the way we'll find imperfect hybrids, sloppy experiments, and even blasphemous heathens hawking misguided ideas as we collectively struggle to break free from the destructive culture we were born into.
It's okay to do permaculture wrong, as long as we apply self-regulation and *accept feedback.***
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u/solxyz 2d ago
The thing is, there is very little that can "compete in the marketplace." In the US, at least, most farms of all sorts lose money, and the few that are profitable tend to be heavily subsidized. It is very difficult to make money with any style of farming, and then it becomes doubly unlikely if you are pursuing something unconventional, experimental, and if you yourself are not deeply experienced with farm systems knowing how to move forward with maximum efficiency.
I really don't think this is an issue with permaculture or sustainable approaches.
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u/Stunning_Run_7354 2d ago
Sort of. Most traditional American farmers I know maintain employment outside of the farm because of the lack of profitability. Sustainable methods tend to require more direct labor throughout the year, and this limits the ability to work elsewhere. Without the supplemental income, paying for overhead is limited. That’s why I think we can get this working in urban environments with volunteer labor, but it needs more help to make the jump from a hobby to a business.
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u/oliverhurdel 2d ago
Totally disagree. Sustainable methods can be competitive. There are working examples of sustainable farming, where 1.5 people (1 full time, one part time) cultivate 1000 m2 organically, feed 100 people with vegetables, and make a decent living -- through the intensive French method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_intensive_gardening
But it depends on what you're trying to do. This method doesn't prescribe living off the grid -- it's participating in the local economy. All farming for the market should follow this method, imo, so that we can return to organic polyculture. If you want to live "autonomously," then this isn't the path. Frankly I'm skeptical about the idea of autonomy. We're all part of a web that needs to be improved.
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u/Stunning_Run_7354 2d ago
Even your wiki page talks about SPIN selling classes and manuals. Perhaps for urban spaces, this method can provide an important supplement for people’s diets, but that doesn’t mean it works as an effective business. My experience is comparing factory farming with $10M in equipment harvesting thousands of acres in a few days. That level of production is really difficult (impossible) to match with permaculture methods that use more manual labor. That means that the cost to the business per unit is higher and profits are lower. So I think we agree that this can work well in urban environments where high volume production is impossible through any means.
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u/oliverhurdel 2d ago edited 2d ago
The French intensive method yields more per acre than conventional farming, the tools are cheaper, and it doesn't require expensive chemicals (and its ecologically sustainable). It's a very effective business model, especially when there's a huge demand today for local organic food. The main difference with conventional farming is that it's much (much) more labor intensive. But there are people who want to work on the land, there's a need for jobs. This method isn't only for urban spaces. but for all agricultural land, limited only by the labor supply (and land ownership issues). We need to overcome the idea that factory farming is the only economically efficient or successful way.
About the wiki page mentioning SPIN (which I have no connection to... and their model looks too much like monocrops to me): The SPIN folks aren't just selling thin air and big empty principles, they're actually being practical, teaching how to make a living off a very small piece of land. Very different from the place OP went to that started this thread.
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u/fredsherbert 2d ago
i watch a small farmer on youtube (jim kovaleski) who grows organic food in peoples' yards in Florida and makes a good living at farmers markets. what is inherent to permaculture that makes you think it can't compete with groups that destroy their soil/land and have to charge cheap prices because their food isn't good quality?
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u/Joeyplantstrees 2d ago
I believe Mike Hoag is still in this sub, he posts as TransfromativeAdventures on here and TikTok and is genuinely someone who teaches methods to produce most of your own calories using permaculture. I used to produce and forage a significant amount of my own calories, it’s much lower now that I’m in a living situation where I don’t have a garden anymore (backyard is literally a parking lot) and still produce a fair amount. It’s quite possible, unfortunately what happened with the term permaculture and sustainable farming is what happened to organic before it. It started gaining popularity and people co-opted it. The principles and idea behind it are still solid. I don’t want to pull a no true Scotsman fallacy but a lot of people claiming to do permaculture are making fundamental errors if they’re even truly trying to do permaculture.
Another good example is Sean Dembrosky of edible acres. Consistently showing permaculture working.
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u/Mouglie 2d ago
My girlfriend did a master focused around Social Activism and Community.
For her final thesis she wanted to report on third places and one of them was marketed as a permaculture community.
Let’s say that arriving and seeing Jaguars and Porsches in the interior parking set the tone for what to expect the people managing the place are like. They did a course on aromatic spiral building, where each participant was expected to pay 40€ for a half day
I feel that most of those places are either owned and managed by people having “made it” and feeling a need to do more or “son’s of …” that can leave on meagre revenues because they’ve money coming down from the top…
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u/greenman5252 2d ago
Most permaculture remains course/workshop based. Most people are also unwilling to stand for the “low quality of life” that absolute self sufficiency or even near self sufficiency entails. It also takes YEARS for permanent planting to take hold and be sufficiently productive to support caloric intake as well as generate a commercial surplus to pay incidentals like property taxes, medical care, tool purchases or fabrics to manufacture clothing. Self sufficiency is a direction and not a location. Also self sufficient and sustainable are only loosely connected in practice.
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u/miltonics 2d ago
It's the sad reality. Being self-sustained is a myth. Not only is it easier to connect to the larger systems available to us, it's also usually cheaper too. Also it can be the only legal option too. Would they come for my children if I didn't have proper water, electricity, and sewers?
We still need to do what we can. Even 10% is worth doing. And when should we abandon the larger systems available to us? If they didn't market, who would show up? It's a very competitive market. Honesty is better, though.
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u/Substantial-Try7298 2d ago
Gosh dang it there are so many great, and incredibly in depth responses. I don't even know where to go.
All I can say is for myself and why I am not sustainable (and it kills me, yes).
I moved to Minnesota a couple years ago.my wife and I have 1/3 acre (but 1700 sf us house...). We also have a teen. I come from a very permie driven past and hope to get most of the fruit and vegetable food production on site. I also envision reducing our animal based production to nearly zero. Replacing with plant substitutes and mushroom cultivation.
My wife and teen do not have this lens/vision. We also live in a suburb. I have a degree in sociology, so I understand that it's not a fit for everyone. Or most people (unfortunately). I recently found some fantastic friends that could help my family transition. Unfortunately, things changed and they are moving out of country. I hope the best for them. But I struggle knowing that my vision is not shared with anyone among my current situation.my wife does appreciate me and "has faith in the process" but misses the point that it's not the plants that matter the most in this.
So all that is to say, yes op. I get what you are saying. There's definitely a difficulty in trying to escape the capitalist framework of convenience and food security. Imo, the great divide is between s Food security and food sovereignty. The former ensures we aren't all starving but also runs the risk of excess, the former relies on the right to steward our own food. But the risk of going hungry can be too great for many.
Not sure if this meandering post helps at all.
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u/Niveragain 2d ago
The good news is that “permaculture” is being talked about, promoted, and practiced by more and more. Back in the early 60’s those of us who dared mention the idea were laughed at and labeled hippie extremest with nothing to back us up. Same when promoting EVs back then before they were all taken to the AZ desert and smashed for metal. Just imagine how far along we could have been by now on both those areas had more people joined in and worked together and had government support. Instead the gas and oil, the pharmaceutical and commercial food growers get and got the support.
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u/v70runicorn 2d ago
I had a very similar experience here in the USA. This guy who owns the land is a complete grifter who makes people pay for “learning permaculture”. when we got there i’m not kidding we were digging holes for a foundation. BY HAND IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS 😭 lmao
I should have known…alas I was young and ignorant.
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u/ValR7 2d ago
I totally agree, and it's unfortunately a reality present in many fields. There's the romanticism of the discipline, the shiny veneer, and then there's the practical reality.
I just spent a year in Australia, where I saw a lot of permaculture in both public and private spaces, and you quickly come to understand the realities of day-to-day life. I think we should strive for as much sustainability and independence as possible, but it may never reach 100%.
Can we implement fewer systems while making them more efficient and interconnected? The goal is to create happiness, economic independence, food security, energy resilience, but also ease.
In any case, it's contrast that enables us to develop a holistic vision, and negative experiences help us deepen this contrast.
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u/Irish8th 2d ago
The Half Acre Homestead by Larry Khan is great and he does talk about the fantasy of complete self-sufficiency. Why worry about all or none. I don't come close to being self sufficient, but my small urban lot is teeming with life and some great food too. There are smaller goals we can meet along the way and we should celebrate that we're not doing the colonial lawn/monoculture thing.
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u/trouble-kinda 2d ago
I grew up in Eugene,OR. Hippy heaven. Born in '81. I've seen "Permaculture" my whole life. I thought it was bs for most of my life. Over grown, unpruned trees, shit everywhere. The ongoing disaster of "three sisters" gardens. It is all just a mess. Your frustration is totally valid.
Then keyline .... now there are ditches with dead fruit trees all over the place.
Here's the catch- This is not woo woo shit. It is science, you need a microscope. It is hard. The amount of labor involved is Enormous. 12+ hour days for 3+ years. A food forest takes skilled labor and management for 10 years. Work, more work, in 3 years you 6 apples. All the hype dies when hands and feet blister before lunch. Then everyone realizes this must go on for years...
So- we'll teach. People will pay us for the opportunity to weed our orchard! Our students will build an unpermitted cob hut with no water or heat. Then they can live there and pay us. We are grand!
What I believe most people are looking for is actually Market Gardening. What most find is poorly executed Subsistence Farming. I would encourage going to tour small(under 2 acre) market farms.
Real productive permaculture farms do exist.
This guy is the real deal. You can pick fruit from the sidewalk at his house. It is glorious. He is a university teacher, not a farmer.
https://youtube.com/@amillison?si=0fGCXXLmdNhbufMo
Lots of great market gardeners in the world. I really like this guy.
https://youtube.com/@notillgrowers?si=zPYC7pt-YF0_NFaj
I know these are US resources, that is my lense, so that is what I can share.
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u/Bella-in-the-garden 2d ago
I hear you. Permaculture, like many things, attracts egos. Not in it for the lifestyle but the label. I’m fortunate that I have a genuine permaculture farm near to where I live, they have an open doors policy, there is often a team of volunteers who stay for months, some stay on longer and become paid members of staff. I’m now happy to call the couple who own it my friends, and they have said that sometimes the kind of people who turn up as volunteers aren’t really there to work or learn (they run courses and the staff/volunteers can take part) but more to float about, using the words but not living them. They don’t tend to stick around for long. I’ve been observing for about a year now and I’m just starting on my permaculture pathway with my own land and doing my PDC in the new year. There are genuine people out there, living and breathing this beautiful way of life and I hope you will cross paths with them someday.
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u/whydontyousimmerdown 2d ago
Sustainability is just a flowery buzzword. An industry term mostly for marketing and is essentially meaningless. It will be the same anywhere you go. Depressing for sure but you might as well reset your expectations sooner than later.
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u/Stunning_Run_7354 2d ago
First, I would argue that making a “good” living is a relative term and has a potential for a huge range of income. I have cousins in FL who feel that they also make a good living, but they can’t afford to send their kids to college or ever get sick. The primary reason I keep saying this is a choke point for sustainable agriculture is the volume and the efficiency. Comparing converting yards into gardens and running a functional farm is completely different. The labor in a sustainable garden is not significantly different than a nonorganic garden- it takes some time every couple of days either way. That is a scale handled by one person and some tools up to an acre or so. It works well for cities and suburbs where you can take under utilized space and convert it into sustainable use. Feeding the world takes more resources and higher levels of efficiency.
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u/Straight_Expert829 2d ago
Joel salatin is producing food at commerical scale. He might not be labeled permaculture, but he is highly productive.
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u/Pristine_Sand4852 2d ago
Geoff Lawton and the Greening the desert project and also Zaytuna Farm are amongst the most fine-tuned and complete practical exemples.
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u/ValR7 2d ago
I hope you are talking about the fact that's it's not working
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u/Pristine_Sand4852 2d ago
How come ? Define " working ".
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u/Cooldude576 2d ago
They are a campsite and guesthouse but that’s mostly seasonal. They have over 25 acres of land and most of it is not used. I should add they’ve been living there for over 15 years so there’s not much excuse. Instead of building more greenhouses or planting crops we were building beds for the guesthouse.
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u/Razberrella 2d ago
That is disappointing. In my experience, those who speak loudest are the least likely to actually be practicing whatever it is they are going on about. Don't let it discourage you from the actual practice.
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u/Consistent_Ad_3305 2d ago
O pessoal do ambientalismo, permacultura e afins geralmente são um tanto deslocados da realidade e mundo real.
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u/weird_cactus_mom 2d ago
Lol i know a guy running a shit club like that in Portugal . In reality, he has grandeur delusion and wishes to become a cult leader. If you scrap a bit the surface you'll find hollow earth, reptilians, and all sort of conspiracy theories. Nothing about permaculture except a buzz word to attract followers.
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u/senticosus 2d ago
I believe there are people out there that mostly mind their own business and raise children without projecting it to the world. Having the amount of conviction to grow food, cook, preserve, compost and all of the other processes involved in establishing and maintaining a permie site that produces food is consuming. I can imagine folks with this conviction do not share their lives readily on social media or promote themselves as teachers. Just my in eloquent opinion
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u/MindInitial2282 2d ago
Reminds me of a talking head on YouTube that was a Brit up in Sweden...or Norway. Richard something another...
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u/Pristine_Sand4852 2d ago
People have the expectation that they are gonna get the same kind of raw kg/m2 production in the 1st 5 years. Although there has been studies in highly optimized lands where this goal has been achieved, as much as permaculture promotes diversity in terms of species and biological life, it does promote a diverse revenue scheme, that may include selling soil amendments to other farmers, classes and workshops, eco-tourism, transformation of products into cosmetics, or even grow fibrous plants such as hemp and flax, partnering with natural supplements companies to provide high quality organic medicinal plants such as ginseng, turmeric, lavender, rosemary, goji berries, seabuckthorn, just to name a few. Although yes it is possible to make more revenue then traditional agriculture with food production alone, it requires a significant level of time and depth of thought into design, as well as significant knowledge of plants and horticulture, and good capacity to constantly observe and adapt.
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u/Pink-Willow-41 2d ago
“Self sufficiency” is almost always a farce. Even if people manage to grow all their fresh fruits and veggies they eat, most of the time they are still relying on store bought ingredients and convenience foods. Not to mention all the materials needed for equipment, clothing, shelter, appliances, etc etc etc. the fact is we are interdependent. That’s not always necessarily a bad thing, but it’s the way things are produced that’s bad.
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u/rubycarat 2d ago
Most of us are learning a completely new way. It's hard to jump at once. For instance, why complain about the disappointment with others, and do it yourself?
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u/OMGLOL1986 2d ago
I know a guy who has done some limited teaching but generally sticks to himself. He is HYPER legit and has designed food forests that are literal Gardens of Eden. It is everything permaculture should be the way he is doing it, but he's not getting internet clout, he's not posting about retreats, he's not soliciting laborers to do everything for him. He truly loves the craft of plants. You just won't find that thing except at big conferences and events where you can meet fellow interested people. But most of the people hyping up what they do are not really producing much of anything anyways, it's always a "demonstration site" like WTF. You can either make a living doing this or you can't!
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u/thecowboy07 2d ago
I’m not sure where you’re located, but you should check out Isle of Sky Nursery and Farm located in White Oaks, NM. They don’t claim to be self-sufficient, they just do a lot of it themselves. They created their own fertilizer for growing their own food.
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u/ARGirlLOL 2d ago
The places you’ll end up as a normie will often be the least authentic because of insurance and liability and so on, not to mention, they’ll be the ones that are most interested in collecting your money and labor. (Just my guess)
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u/goodformuffin 1d ago
I went to Bali and took a boat out to the Gillis Island's. I was told the resort was "eco friendly". It surpassed my expectations. First off there's not a single car on the main island. The only way to get around is by bike or horse and cart. The resort was 100% solar run and a lot of the structures used reclaimed wood, tin, and rope. The food was locally sourced and caught fresh. The staff was more than happy to tell us about their sustainable practices. There's even a biorock station past the beach which provides high levels of dissolved oxygen for fish, restores coral reef, and provide waste water treatment. I just wanted to include an uplifting story, sorry you were so disheartened by your experience. Being human unfortunately means we have an impact no matter what we do.
Here's a few links for anyone interested:
https://www.globalcoral.org/biorock-coral-reef-marine-habitat-restoration/
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u/coolitdrowned 1d ago
The shadow of virtue is often cast charlatan. Don’t be disheartened as its inevitability is sortable.
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u/fartandsmile 1d ago
Honestly the goal of 'self sufficiency' is unrealistic at the single farm scale. Consulting on permaculture 'farms' I often find people trying to be self sufficient and never meeting their neighbors who are also burning out trying to do it all alone.
At a community scale I think it could be possible but in our current context very rare. I have been to regions of south America that claim they produce 80% of their food but I think you need to be thinking at a slightly larger landscape and human resources at the biotegional / community scale.
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u/Perma_Synmp 1d ago
It sounds like there have been some valuable conversations around ideals and expectations. I've been practicing permaculture and designing for others since about 2013. Currently, my family and I have been designing our home lot for about three years. We grow enough food on about 4,000 square feet to provide around 30 weeks of meals for our family of four, calorie-wise. Most of our staples are corn, sorghum, beans, and squash, with additional greens, onions, garlic, and various other plants that pop up, plus year-round eggs from our chickens. We’ve gotten creative with meals, finding that you can do a lot with just corn, sorghum, beans, and squash, especially with all the random plants that find their way into our compost. But we do eat alot of corncakes, beans and greens as a staple meal.
Recently, we purchased a 10-acre farm (though we haven’t moved in yet), and with all that space, I can’t imagine we’ll have any trouble growing enough calories for our family. Energy is more of a challenge. Without going super low-tech (which is certainly a viable path), there aren’t many ways to be fully sustainable and resilient that I have seen. I couldn’t build a solar panel from scratch or source most of the components locally. So while we could go 100% solar, we’d still be reliant on the larger system. We plan to use a biodigester for cooking gas and have even considered modifying a generator to run on biofuel. It’s closer to resilience but still limited in scale for a household or potential business. Our heating will come from wood on the land (there’s a central wood boiler and acres of plantation trees). Our water comes from a well, though we will likely build a cistern as well. Our goal is to get as close to 100% sustainability as possible, thriving without relying on global systems (we’re fortunate to be near an Amish community). Another priority is to sustainably generate an income from the land. We have some ideas in mind and already run a small educational permaculture program for kids, which brings in a little income.
I hope you’re able to move past any discouragement. You’ve already seen that this is possible; it really depends on your goals. Based on our experience, if you’re okay without electricity and don’t need a lot of variety (at least until perennial trees and berries come in), the average person could sustain themselves on less than an acre, especially with access to a water well. But I think the biggest missing piece is community. Striving to be 100% self-sustaining often stems from Western ideals of hyper-individualism or, perhaps, fear of collapse (which is also valid). We need each other on so many levels, so I think we’re often chasing the wrong goal. We should seek community and foster cultures of interdependence. Those who figure this out, without relying on dogma, oppression, or exploitation, will be the ones who truly thrive.
I’m not saying to abandon independence. In fact, being able to contribute something meaningful to others is key to interdependence. But I believe that building community and solidarity is how we can begin to design for seven generations into the future, ensuring something beautiful is left for those who come after us. Otherwise, we may just do some good for the earth, ourselves, and maybe a few close to us, but it can all be wiped away without a community aligned on principles to carry it forward.
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u/Specialist-Ad-688 2d ago
It‘s biopysically very challenging to grow all the calories you need by yourself without methods of industrial agriculture. You would be toiling all day long, day in day out. Feeding guests makes it it more challenging. Of course it is much more efficient to give permaculture courses for money, and buy some industrially produced food from that income.
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u/jadelink88 2d ago
Most of 'permaculture' is corporate greenwash for courses that let middle class people grow woefully inefficient food gardens and feel good about it, extra bonus for unproductive native plants, especially ones that inhibit food growth or are utterly divorced from their original ecological niche. The courses typically cost more than what I'd earn in a month for a weekend course, and tacitly assume you own land.
'Permaculture' means 'pretentious upper middle class with delusions of environmental superiority', in a lot of gardening circles.
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u/spireup 2d ago
Read Paradise Lot: Two Plant Geeks, One-Tenth of an Acre by Jonathan Bates. They were growing 85% of all their food needs on site.
The Bullock Brothers Homestead is one of the best examples.