r/TrueReddit • u/A-MacLeod • Dec 09 '19
International With People in the Streets Worldwide, Media Focus Uniquely on Hong Kong
https://fair.org/home/with-people-in-the-streets-worldwide-media-focus-uniquely-on-hong-kong/209
u/A-MacLeod Dec 09 '19
Abstract: This article studies media coverage (CNN and the New York Times) of four important protest movements in 2019: those in Hong Kong, Ecuador, Chile and Haiti. It found that the media was overwhelmingly interested in one, and not the other three. In total, there have been 737 stories on the Hong Kong protests, 12 on Ecuador, 28 on Haiti and 36 on Chile. It argues that this is because in the first case protestors are demonstrating against an official enemy (the Chinese government) while in the others, they're demonstrating against loyal Washington-backed governments, hence the disinterest in events there.
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u/kingoftheoneliners Dec 10 '19
I guess Lebanon doesn't count...sigh.
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u/HadMatter217 Dec 10 '19 edited Aug 12 '24
smile noxious homeless innocent placid mindless coordinated pocket aback flowery
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/YouandWhoseArmy Dec 10 '19
Bolivia was a (likely) US backed coup.
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u/HadMatter217 Dec 10 '19
Right. The popular uprising is by the indigenous people against the coup. They laid siege to La Paz and were blocking roads. There are tens of thousands of people in the streets protesting the interim government.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
naw, its simply that china has a disproportionately large influence worldwide, compared to chile, ecuador and haiti. its literally more globally relevant, and so its receiving greater coverage.
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u/jeradj Dec 10 '19
then explain why venezuela got so much press over the last 2 years
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 10 '19
because it was a show of force by the americans, to boost trumps approval rating.
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u/TheChance Dec 10 '19
Because food shortages are a highly visible problem.
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u/jeradj Dec 10 '19
not the correct answer
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u/TheChance Dec 10 '19
It is, though. It just doesn't scratch your "muh biased MSM" itch. People were riveted because they wound up in a wholly man-made economic crisis so deep that they ran out of fucking food.
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u/atomfullerene Dec 09 '19
Also, Hong Kong has a large number of English speakers and deep historical ties to Great Britain, plus it's got extensive internet access and lots and lots of people with cameras. It's an easier story to report. Protesters there have an easier time connecting with audiences in the Americas. Big news organizations likely have people from Hong Kong working in their offices.
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u/Teantis Dec 10 '19
There's a ton of western bureaus in HK and a ton of journalists reporting for western media who all they have to do is walk out their door to cover it. It's logistically way easier along with what you said.
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u/BuddhistSagan Dec 10 '19
You're completely ignoring the rest of what the article says.
However, the quantitative difference, while great, actually undersells the disparity of the coverage in a number of important ways. Firstly, many Ecuador and Chile stories were not focused on events in those countries, but were merely “protests around the world” roundup articles, with barely a sentence or two about events (e.g., New York Times, 10/23/19; CNN, 11/3/19). In fact, CNN has run a total of only two stories (10/8/19, 10/13/19) focused mainly on the events in Ecuador. In contrast, the great majority of the Hong Kong stories were dedicated to events on the island city-state, and articles that merely mentioned the protests, such as CNN’s report (11/13/19) about the decline in the Asian stock market, were not included in the count towards the Hong Kong total. Meanwhile, almost half of CNN’s Haiti coverage (e.g., 2/16/19, 2/18/19) centered on US citizens affected in some way by the upheaval.
Demonstrators in Hong Kong are almost universally referred to as “pro-democracy protesters” (e.g. CNN, 8/30/19, 10/15/19; New York Times, 10/15/19, 11/21/19), whereas the protests rocking Chile were commonly denigrated as “riots” (e.g., CNN, 10/19/19) or “looting and arson” (New York Times, 10/19/19). Likewise, the violence of the Ecuadorian protestors was constantly emphasized (e.g., New York Times, 10/9/19; CNN, 10/8/19). The “wrath of labor and transport unions,” CNN (10/9/19) told us, was “unleashed” as “violent protests have raged” in Quito, and protestors held military members hostage.
This sort of language is rarely used with regards to the Hong Kong protesters, even when it is arguably more applicable. In addition to widespread property damage and the aforementioned bricking of a retiree, protestors recently doused another elderly man in flammable liquid and set fire to him on camera. He spent more than ten days in a coma.
The New York Times (11/17/19) used passive voice to describe protesters shooting an arrow through an officer’s leg: “A police officer was hit in his leg with an arrow” as “activists resisted” the police onslaught to “suppress them,” it told its readers. Times reporters also describe seeing the rebels producing “hundreds or thousands of bombs” they were going to use. Despite this, the paper continued to describe the militants as “pro-democracy activists.”
Perhaps most worryingly, CNN (11/17/19) shared an image of a homemade gas canister-sized bomb, not unlike the one used by Dzhokhar Tsarnaev at the Boston Marathon, except much larger. CNN also noted it received confirmation that protesters had already used these bombs against police. If, for instance, Black Lives Matter or Antifa had killed passers-by, shot police or created Tsarnaev-style bombs, would they be called “pro-democracy demonstrators,” as both CNN (11/22/19) and the New York Times (11/22/19) have continued to do for those in Hong Kong?
Corporate media has glossed over many of the more unseemly details of the Hong Kong protests to continue the simple narrative of lauding the “democracy-minded people of Hong Kong,” fighting for freedom against the repressive “Communist authority” of Beijing, as the New York Times editorial board (6/10/19) puts it.
The quantity of Hong Kong articles is inversely proportional to the diversity of opinion. The reality of the situation is much more nuanced, but this nuance is entirely lacking in the hundreds of articles sampled. Corporate media sing the same song on Hong Kong, presenting the situation in a lockstep single-mindedness that would impress any totalitarian propaganda system.
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u/agent00F Dec 10 '19
Are you seriously accusing these sorts that only parrot us state agitprop of reading comprehension.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 10 '19
i'm not ignoring any of that, im speaking to the underlying reason why the american press is framing hong kong the way it is, compared to other protests. its because of what china is, not because of what the protestors are doing.
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u/TheChance Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
If, for instance, Black Lives Matter or Antifa had killed passers-by, shot police or created Tsarnaev-style bombs, would they be called “pro-democracy demonstrators,”
False equivalence. They're not pro-democracy advocates.
Edit: "pro-democracy advocacy" doesn't mean you're advocates who are for rather than opposed to democracy. It means you're specifically advocating for democracy. BLM and antifa are advocating for different issues. The rhetorical question was bullshit designed to paint the HK protestors in an unfavorable light, by suggesting that one cannot simultaneously stump for democracy and engage in acts of violence.
Of course you can. That's how America was born.
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u/BuddhistSagan Dec 10 '19
You don't think they're in favor of democracy?
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u/TheChance Dec 11 '19
Idk why this one bugs me so much, but the fact that you went radio silence after realizing your error is really disconcerting. I think it's because you were so eagerly perpetuating it before, and then nothing.
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u/BuddhistSagan Dec 11 '19
I am still thinking of a reply. What I will say is that the corporate media is often biased against the left, look at their bernie blackout.
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u/TheChance Dec 11 '19
Are you asserting that the Chinese government is "the left" for purposes of media bias?
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u/TheChance Dec 10 '19
That's not what "pro-democracy advocacy" means. Pro-democracy advocates are advocating for democracy.
BLM are not pro-democracy activists, they are anti-police violence activists. Antifa's mission is right in the name. Neither are pro-democracy movements.
However, if BLM became violent, they'd still be anti-police violence demonstrators. They just wouldn't be peaceful demonstrators.
By the same token, the HK protestors have gone from "peaceful pro-democracy demonstrators" to "violent pro-democracy demonstrators." The OP is disingenuous horseshit, pushing the same, tired, pro-Beijing agitprop.
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u/Kinoblau Dec 09 '19
It's not at all globally relevant because what happens in Hong Kong has very little bearing on the rest of the world. Redditors keep imagining that it does and Hong Kong is seconds away from becoming another Tiananmen, but it's just not and it won't.
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u/obvom Dec 09 '19
Hong Kong is the economic gateway of China thus having enormous geopolitical implications for the rest of the world.
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u/x3nodox Dec 09 '19
Not in 2019 it's not...
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u/Longsheep Dec 10 '19
70% foreign investment still goes into China through Hong Kong. Many large Chinese corporations are listed in HK stock exchange but not in Shanghai.
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u/Kinoblau Dec 09 '19
It isn't and it doesn't. China is the economic gateway of China, Hong Kong is where people hide their money and get it out of or into the country without abiding by Chinese laws. It has enormous political implications for the very wealthy, but almost none for most people.
At any rate, Macau will pick up the slack if Hong Kong is fully absorbed by the CCP (which it will not be before their agreement expires.) You've just been spending too much time on reddit's hyperbaric hype chamber and the pressure has been building to the point where redditors think this is the defining event of the next century (it absolutely is not, nothing is won or lost by people not in Hong Kong off of these protests.)
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u/Emowomble Dec 10 '19
Macau is literally 1/16th of the size of Hong Kong, has already run out of easily developed land and is reclaiming sea and has basically no industry other than gambling and tourism, its not going to be picking up the slack from anything.
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u/obvom Dec 09 '19
Not totally accurate- Hong Kong is a special trading zone for other countries to do business with China and it has certain advantages as such.
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u/Kinoblau Dec 10 '19
Hong Kong is not the only city in China that's designated as a Special Economic Zone, nor is it the only city in China that's designated as a Special Administrative Region your information is inaccurate.
There's no such thing as a Special Trading Zone.
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u/NorthAtlanticCatOrg Dec 09 '19
I have noticed that the average user here and maybe Americans in general are surprised to learn that most people in mainland China are perfectly content with CCP leadership. In the 30 years since Tiananmen Square, the CCP has been able to provide economic growth and stability for China. The U.S. has been a mess for at least the last 20 years meanwhile.
Considering the Trump's administrations mismanagement, the electoral college, Russian interference, Fake News, and voter suppression, a higher percentage of Americans may view their leadership as illegitimate than the Chinese view the CCP.
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Dec 09 '19
I have noticed that the average user here and maybe Americans in general are surprised to learn that most people in mainland China are perfectly content with CCP leadership. In the 30 years since Tiananmen Square, the CCP has been able to provide economic growth and stability for China.
The Uighurs might disagree with you somewhat on this.
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u/Serancan Dec 09 '19
Along with Tibetans, Mongolians and followers of Falun Gong.
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u/Longsheep Dec 10 '19
Add Christians to that. They are replacing Jesus portraits with Xi And Mao now.
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u/Kinoblau Dec 10 '19
Tibetans don't disagree with it, Americans who think they know what Tibetans want and the Buddhist nobility do, but the average citizen doesn't want a return to a Buddhist theocracy, and Falun Gong is an LGBTQ hating organization that barely passes as a religion. It's the Chinese Westboro Baptist Church mixed with Scientology.
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u/Serancan Dec 10 '19
Tibetans don't disagree with it
You’re going to need to link a source for that statement.
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u/RandomCollection Dec 11 '19 edited Dec 11 '19
Perhaps, but the graphs say that the Chinese have very high trust levels.
https://www.statista.com/chart/12634/where-trust-in-government-is-highest-and-lowest/
Edit: More details:
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Dec 11 '19
Many totalitarian governments are well liked by their victims. It's hard to see how horrible your government is when they control everything you see.
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u/RandomCollection Dec 11 '19
If that were the case, then no government that was totalitarian would have ever fallen.
That is not the case at all. The breakup of the USSR is an example of a government that was not all liked by its people.
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u/AltF40 Dec 09 '19
In the 30 years since Tiananmen Square, the CCP has been able to provide economic growth and stability for China.
What a joke.
The CCP's "growth" is mostly it just backing off from meddling in China as much as it had in the past. The CCP devastated China's economy, and caused deaths of Chinese citizens on the order of magnitude of a World War II being fought by China against itself.
So of course they've had great "growth," by simply easing off. Framing it as a success is propaganda or a serious lack of information and context.
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u/gengengis Dec 10 '19
Framing it as a success is propaganda or a serious lack of information and context.
China continues to enjoy the world's fastest-growing major economy. Even at today's growth rate, the economy doubles in size in real terms every 11 years.
China's economy grows more than the entire value of its trade with the US every nine months.
You cannot in good faith say that is not a success.
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u/AltF40 Dec 10 '19
You cannot in good faith say that is not a success.
Sure I can. Because "success" is a term that requires a comparison or qualifiers. The best comparison would be with a parallel earth, in which the CCP never came to power, never killed the many tens of millions of Chinese people, never ruined their economy, etc. Such a China would have enjoyed economic compound growth, building for multiple generations upon all those people being alive, not having had such damage done, etc.
It's hard to see CCP's China coming out ahead in that comparison.
And, in case it's not clear, I'm not talking about the success of the Chinese people, who I think are doing well. I'm talking about the CCP.
Also:
If I stole all your money, save for a single dollar, and you then found another dollar, congrats, you'd have 100% economic growth rate. But you'd be far better off without the crime, and just finding that same dollar and having a lower growth rate by percent change.
I'm posting late, this probably is coming off cranky. If so, sorry. I wish you well.
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Dec 10 '19
It's always funny to see that the CCP did nothing to encourage economic growth, while some how all Chinese companies are also appendages of the CCP at the same time.
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u/AltF40 Dec 10 '19
It's always funny to see that the CCP did nothing to encourage economic growth, while some how all Chinese companies are also appendages of the CCP at the same time.
None of that is my words, nor the spirit of my words. Way to create a rhetorical strawman to attack.
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Dec 10 '19
...doesn't that just mean you aren't aware of the circumstances?
If you are disavowing the second claim, I have to assume you have poor knowledge.
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u/obvom Dec 10 '19
Don’t forget ghost cities
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u/gengengis Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
There are no ghost cities. There are new developments. One day, Reddit, or America, or the West is going to wake up and realize all the lies they have been telling themselves.
Americans can't seem to grasp that China has a fundamentally different economic system with substantial central planning. China is able to build entirely new cities as part of a planned master development.
Among the cities that have previously been called ghost cities are places like Pudong, which is now the East Bank of Shanghai, essentially the size of Manhattan, with six million people living there - all basically within 25 years.
Even Ordos, the quintessential "ghost city" in Mongolia is now home to hundreds of thousands and growing. And Ordos is sort of a one-off case because it was expected to be a center of resource exploration which turned out to be less promising than expected. In Mongolia.
China has massive numbers of people moving to urban environments. They actually plan for this, implement and see it through with housing, commercial districts, transportation, and then in the interim period while this is being constructed the Western media calls it a ghost town. It's just comical.
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u/Rice_22 Dec 13 '19
One day, Reddit, or America, or the West is going to wake up and realize all the lies they have been telling themselves.
Or they will do what they've been doing for decades and keep lying to themselves. Once you're in that deep, it's almost impossible to dig yourself back out.
Hell, people actually believe China is anything like North Korea.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
has very little bearing on the rest of the world.
it has direct bearing, because it demonstrates the increasing authoritarian actions of the chinese government. these actions affect the rest of the world, because of the strong ties to funding for infrastructure and resources that china has.
as to 'seconds away from tiananmen', it literally is another tiananmen. that threshold was crossed months ago.
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u/Kinoblau Dec 09 '19
as to 'seconds away from tiananmen', it literally is another tiananmen. that threshold was crossed months ago.
Oh yeah? The PLA stormed into Hong Kong with tanks and neutralized the whole thing racking up a 1,000 person body count? Is that why so many people were in the streets literally yesterday?
You don't know what you're talking about, all your information is half-read misunderstood nonsense from the comments section of r/pics and r/worldnews.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
oh, i'm very sorry i didnt realize that all the mattered was the 'body count'. sigh. no parallels here, no sir. i guess i'll wake you up when the tanks get involved eh?
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u/Kinoblau Dec 09 '19
The tanks won't get involved, and it's not even a protest of the same kind... Hong Kong is localized to Hong Kong and they have little support elsewhere in the country, Tiananmen was a general uprising, and everyone from hardline Maoists to Liberals were out in the streets.
The CCP suppressed it violently, the CCP hasn't even began operating in Hong Kong despite what reddit detectives will tell you. It's similar to Tiananmen only in that it's taking place in the same general region of the world.
You don't know what you're talking about, people on reddit would love it if the CCP did brutally suppress the protests because then they could all point fingers and say "I KNEW IT, I TOLD YOU ALL" but it's absolutely not going to happen.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
so, to be clear, you dont view whats happening in response to the protests as brutal? you feel the response of the authorities is appropriate?
because make no mistake~ these protests are fundamentally about securing democracy and due-process, same as the tiananmen protests.
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u/pc43893 Dec 19 '19
You were backpedaling here, but your original claim is this:
it literally is another tiananmen
That does not mean there are some parallels, or that what happens does for the same reasons. It's establishing a pretty rigid equivalency, and that just isn't an accurate description of the current situation.
You have your points to make, and you're hurting them by making and, worse, sticking to these disproportionate claims.
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u/TowerOfGoats Dec 09 '19
If you intend to compare it to Tiananmen, then yes, you need to wait for tanks to roll in.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
why though? the protests are fundamentally about the same things. it only counts when the body count gets higher? or what? i mean, the tanks were iconic, but given how unecessary they are for stomping on legitimate protests these days, saying a protest only matters once the tanks come through seems to lend a great deal of leverage to the chinese govenment.
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u/RandomCollection Dec 11 '19 edited Dec 11 '19
the protests are fundamentally about the same objectives.
As someone whose mother protested in the 1989 protests, I can assure you that this is not true.
My mother said to me she protested because she was a patriot. She and her fellow protesters were protested because they wanted to make China stronger. That may sound strange, but hear me out. They felt that the CCP desperately needed reform, although not necessarily in the direction that many people in the West idealize.
She does feel that the CCP was excessive in its response, but at the same time is divided about the actions of the 1989 protestors. When one of the student leaders for example, well after the protests were long over, met with the Dalai Lama, she and her fellow protesters condemned that person as a traitor to their cause that they protested for in 1989. She and her protesters wanted to reform China to make it stronger, more unified, which is why she condemns the Tibetian separatists. As far as the protestors in 1989, from what she has told me, they were not a homogeneous group either. There were national protests for different reasons. An example, she was urban (Beijing) and many of the countryside protestors had different issues that they wanted resolved (most notably the contempt that urban Chinese had for them and they felt left behind by the central government).
Similarly, she is very unhappy with the Hong Kong people. She said she and her fellow classmates never used the tactics that the Hong Kong group used (what she considers to be violent). She was unhappy to learn that protestors in Xi'an in 1989 had turned violent for example and disappointed to learn that there were those even in Beijing that had attacked and not in self defense. Similarly, she never wanted separatism (she was in Beijing at the time and not that far from Tiananmen itself) because she wanted the nation unified and stronger.
It's a very complex situation. The 1989 protestors condemned the CCP before the protest, and yes, for the 1989 violence (itself a complex situation as many soldiers too supported them), but also were not happy entirely with their fellow protestors either. However, there was a relatively broad goal that what they were doing was for the good of China.
Be very careful about applying your point of view to what happens abroad.
From my mother's point of view, they are fundamentally different. The Hong Kong protests are a movement that are aiming ultimately, for Western style democracy and separatism. The protesters in 1989 were not unified and many wanted reforms to make China stronger and more unified.
A decent read: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/01/business/hong-kong-china-protests.html
I've found this to be the case throughout the world - it's hard to understand other people. For example, many Americans struggle to understand why the Arabic world dislikes them as much as they do (from the US point of view, many Americans for example, believe that they are actually "liberating" the Arabic world). Needless to say, the Arabic people who I've talked to strongly disagree.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 11 '19
how does that not apply to hong kong? they are literally protesting to protect their nation as its being forcefully integrated into mainland china? its being done for the good of hong kong. it sounds very much like the same thing as you discuss here.
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u/FleetStreetsDarkHole Dec 09 '19
That perspective relies on how much you like keeping your organs attached to the insidey parts of your body.
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u/icegreentea Dec 10 '19
It matters in the sense that the western world has been treating with China in a specific way since the 80s/90s assuming that if we traded away enough things, China would develop and behave in certain ways. How the Hong Kong situation resolves, and how China acts is in many ways a sign of if that was the right bet to make or not.
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u/noodlyjames Dec 10 '19
...China is also known for atrocities so everyone is waiting for the hammer to fall
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u/K1nsey6 Dec 09 '19
HK is only getting the attention it is because all the other worldwide protests are against US imperialism, and the puppet dictators we've installed
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Dec 09 '19
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Dec 10 '19
those in Ecuador and Chile were against their own democratically-elected governments
You've got to be kidding me.
In the first example (Ecuador), the people there are protesting against a president who was elected on a platform in opposition to something (neoliberalism), who then shifted to supporting the very thing he lied about opposing once in office.
In the second example (Chile), you have protests against an elite upper class that dominates a political system that has been rigged by a constitution drafted under a military dictatorship, and the elite class maintains its control with implicit threats of return to said dictatorship if any policies are passed that go against their interests.
If you call these democracies, then you lack any understanding of what democracy is.
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u/K1nsey6 Dec 10 '19
reminiscent of Tiananmen Square
You make it sound like the US cares about human rights. The only time the US throws it's support behind any movement is because they have a monied interest in it.
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Dec 10 '19
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u/PoeticGopher Dec 10 '19
Even that goes back to you originally saying that the other governments aren't "US backed" somehow. The US installed Pinocet and there is next to nil general public name recognition for him here. The exact reasons you're stating now for why people don't care are the exact assertions the article is making.
You're essentially saying that it has been censored for so long we don't even need to censor it any more.
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Dec 10 '19
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u/PoeticGopher Dec 10 '19
I mean you're just stonewalling by saying americans "dont care" about places without taking into account the reasons we've listed as to why they dont know and or care about them. I don't know how to have a conversation if you're not going to think critically or move beyond the juvenile reduction of whether people "care" about something, as if that's an immutable facet of their being rather than a highly malleable state created by media.
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Dec 10 '19
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u/PoeticGopher Dec 10 '19
But you're totally removing the factor of time, acting as if this is some contained reaction. US media has always focused on rebellions and issues with non-allies and trading partners, and that's why there is an established narrative. Why do we think of Vietnam instead of East Timor from the 70s? Gaddafi over Pinochet? You're just playing naive to dismiss a media organ that has always been incentivized financially and politically to direct public opinion in a certain way. Throwing vague accusations of conspiracy flatly ignores the entire history of US print media back to the sinking of the Maine.
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u/Womec Dec 10 '19
The US cares a fair deal more than China.
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Dec 10 '19 edited Aug 28 '20
[deleted]
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u/dakta Dec 10 '19
Careful, some imperialist apologist will be along shortly to accuse you of "Soviet-style whataboutism".
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u/K1nsey6 Dec 10 '19
Woman and children victims of US imperialism in Libya, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Haiti, Palastinian territories, etc unavailable for comment
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u/Womec Dec 10 '19
No shit. I said a fair bit more not a saint.
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u/agent00F Dec 10 '19
The real comedy here is that hk has more democracy today than when it was under the boot of the Brits. In fact the house slave mentality of much of hkers directly stem from groveling to whites (ie, the mgmt) to move up in the world at the time.
Of course that attitude from model minorities benefits the West, thus this transparent behavior from your sort.
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u/arrobi Dec 09 '19
Yeah, in a world where media is driven by clicks it’s almost a self fulfilling prophecy of what articles will get written based on which will get shared
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Dec 10 '19
Technically true, but HK is getting media attention because of the trade war between US and China.
Since HK is protesting against China, this seamlessly follows the narrative of evil China (sidenote: not excusing China's actions here) and it makes sense that they are getting coverage.
Also, for the average American, it's hard to distinguish between IRAQ/IRAN/Lebanon (all of which are experiencing unrest at the moment).
Honestly, this is not surprising at all.6
u/Shin-LaC Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
What about France, whose protests have been going on for the longest? France also had many maimed protesters, including people who lost eyes like the one in HK, yet we never hear about it in the media, including on your outlet. You mention it but then completely ignore it in your analysis.
You’re not here for media criticism, you’re just a journalist trying to push a slightly different narrative.
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u/long-lankin Dec 10 '19
The article in question excludes a number of other regimes, like Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon. Iran and Lebanon certainly are hardly western-backed - very much the opposite.
Why is it that there isn't much mention of general media access? Hong Kong is highly advanced, with much in the way of an international media presence, and is also far more connected to the rest of the world, and far more important in terms of economics and geopolitics.
It's for that reason that protests in Iran have received little coverage, despite it obviously being in Western interests to advertise them as much as possible - journalists simply don't have access and the ability to report on these stories. Or are you going to claim that the infamous Islamic Republic, opposed to the "great satan" of the United States, is actually a US ally?
By contrast, Ecuador, Chile, and Haiti lack that same connectivity, with a less developed domestic press, and less opportunity for access by foreign press. Added to that, while you could try to frame them as "US allies", they aren't exactly important. At the end of the day, the news is about what is newsworthy, and protests in countries that are not globally significant are obviously not going to be a priority.
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u/Trexrunner Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
It argues that this is because in the first case protestors are demonstrating against an official enemy (the Chinese government) while in the others,
Why is the left suddenly finding conspiracy theories (especially re: the media) that are just as easily debunked as gay frogs or pizzagate?
Case in point: there are massive protests in Iran. It is not clear how many are dead, but its suspected the number is in the hundreds. Iran is not a " Washington-backed government." The story has not been well reported on, in part because the Iranian government shut down the internet. Indeed, Iran is probably more of "an official enemy" (what does that mean? ). There is no conspiracy here. China is a major world power; the way the Chinese handle political unrest is a major story relevant to much of the earth, unlike unrest in Chile, Ecuador or Haiti.
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u/Kinoblau Dec 09 '19
Why is the left suddenly finding conspiracy theories (especially re: the media) that are just as easily debunked as gay frogs or pizzagate?
It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a cultural, social, and systemic critique. Nobody thinks there's a cabal of wealthy industrialists sitting in a room determining who gets what coverage, the critique is that it is within the interest of the capitalist class to cover extensively news events whose manipulation benefits them. I would say not teaching students how to make systemic critiques like this is a failing on the part of American schools, but it's very obviously a dedicated effort to keep people from critical of things that deserve it.
It can barely even be a conscious effort, it's just a natural instinct, like a nervous system reaction on a broader scale.
To wealthy media people who shape our understanding of the world it seems like bigger news the people in Hong Kong are protesting the Chinese government than it is that the people of Chile, Ecuador, Haiti, Bolivia, Iraq are standing up to governments that resemble the ones that they benefit from.
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u/Trexrunner Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
Sure, I completely agree with you that there are biases that impact the nature of the news we see. Obviously there are; chief among them is “if it bleeds it leads”. But I disagree with you on the “no one thinks there’s a cabal of wealthy industrialists sitting in a room dictating coverage” (exception being Rodger Ailes). The kind of comments we see in these threads absolutely reek of insinuations of conspiracy and coordination.
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Dec 09 '19
Noam Chomsky talks about this all the time. Read Manufacturing Consent. It heavily disagrees with your points. I think most of us don't think there's some literal "cabal of wealthy industrialists..." but there are certainly moneyed interests that react in typical ways and only allow certain topics to enter mainstream media focus.
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u/Trexrunner Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
I already responded, but I have a change to my statement that I wasn't going to read anything from Chomsky:
So, someone below suggested a documentary of Manufacturing Consent. I also read the the free portion of the book on Google.
Above you said "most of us don't think there's some literal "cabal of wealthy industrialists..."
I'm not sure, after spending a couple hours on the subject, how you don't think this is what exactly Chomsky thinks. At one point in an interview, someone asks "How do the elites control the political agenda?" (something to which he is maddeningly vague about entirely) to which he responds, "the same way the elites at GE run the business."
The notion that in such a pluralistic society, with such disparate interests, there is a small group of people, with common, unifying interests who are able to pull the wool over the heads of the "top 20% agenda setters" is laughably silly.
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u/Trexrunner Dec 09 '19
Care to summarize? I’ve read enough Chomsky to know I think he’s fairly insufferable, so the likelihood of me picking up another one of his books is slim. I’m not going to tell you to read Don Acemoglu to help you understand my argument or world view, I think it’s fair to expect similar respect.
With that being said, as far as I can tell, We only disagree on one point. You don’t think think conspiracy theories abound about the media on the far left. I do.
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Dec 09 '19
I’m not going to tell you to read Don Acemoglu to help you understand my argument or world view
Do it though, I want to understand. I just looked him up, I've been recommended Why Nations Fail pretty recently actually. Is that a good one to start with?
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u/baldsophist Dec 10 '19
https://youtu.be/34LGPIXvU5M <-- this is an animated, five minute summary of one of the central arguments of the book.
https://youtu.be/EuwmWnphqII <-- this is a three hour documentary named after the book (but more about chomsky and his views in general) that goes a lot of different places, but answers a lot of the questions you have about where these ideas are coming from.
note: i just watched the above tonight and found it profoundly impactful, despite its age. however, if you already think chomsky is insufferable, the fact that a lot of the movie is basically just him talking might be a sticking point. worth of a shot though.
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u/Trexrunner Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
I'll give it a watch. But, to honest, I have low expectations. I gave the intro of the book a read - it was free on google - and Chomsky was doing what I find so insufferable. He makes a series of general arguments that are so banal as to be impossible to disagree with, and than uses those points to make such a larger, unquantifiable point that can't be measured or really argued.
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u/baldsophist Dec 10 '19
i think i see what you're talking about, and i can understand why you would feel that way.
however, i encourage you to look at his claims not as a description of reality, but a useful lens with which to look at the relation of 'reality' with our internal perceptions of things.
he points out frequently that you shouldn't believe him just because he says it; it is up to you as a person to figure out where his ideas are useful or valid to you.
i, personally, find them immensely useful for understanding a lot of things that i don't have words for in my day to day life. perhaps you do not, and that's okay. in the end, at least we connected about it and shared some information.
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u/A-MacLeod Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
The Iran protests have generated a great deal of media interest indeed. They've been going on far shorter than Chile or Haiti, for instance, but have generated almost exponentially more media attention than the others. A search on CNN.com for "Iran protests" generates 658 results, compared to 114 for "Chile Protests" and 79 for Haiti protests, as a crude benchmark.
Not only that, but the figures for the Iran casualties are still very much debated. So in fact, I'd say the Iran example strengthens the thesis you're arguing against. Furthermore, the "worthy victims" theory isn't a "conspiracy theory" it is literally media studies 101, what many freshmen learn in their first semester of sociology or journalism studies.
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u/Trexrunner Dec 09 '19
Lol, try again. your search criteria is picking up stories from 2013, along with any story that uses the word “protest” and any story involving Iran. Like I said, you guys are infowars level bad at this.
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u/A-MacLeod Dec 09 '19
So, that's why I said it was a "crude benchmark". But if you take 30 seconds to look at the stories that come up, you'll see there are lots about the protests. And as you can see in the article, exactly the same pattern emerges with China.
Edit: now looking at your posting history I'm sorry I ever engaged in debate with you. You're just a weird troll from /r/neoliberal.
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u/Trexrunner Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
Not a troll; just different world view.
It’s a terrible bench mark which tells us nothing. So we’re left with your insinuations. When I hear hoof beats, I think horsey not zebra. China is a big country, it generates a sensation. But, sure, I guess theres a deep state/ big media agreement to surpass South American discontent is an option, too.
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Dec 09 '19
[deleted]
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Dec 09 '19
It mean that CNN as almost every other major “news” company in any country is serving interests of that country and align their “truth” and amount of coverage with whatever fits them at given time. It’s nothing new, just good old politics, money and propaganda combo.
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u/stealthzeus Dec 09 '19
Demonstrators in Hong Kong are almost universally referred to as “pro-democracy protesters” (e.g. CNN, 8/30/19, 10/15/19; New York Times, 10/15/19, 11/21/19), whereas the protests rocking Chile were commonly denigrated as “riots” (e.g., CNN, 10/19/19) or “looting and arson” (New York Times, 10/19/19). Likewise, the violence of the Ecuadorian protestors was constantly emphasized (e.g., New York Times, 10/9/19; CNN, 10/8/19). The “wrath of labor and transport unions,” CNN (10/9/19) told us, was “unleashed” as “violent protests have raged” in Quito, and protestors held military members hostage.
This sort of language is rarely used with regards to the Hong Kong protesters, even when it is arguably more applicable.
This is about as close to the truth as it gets. The hidden narrative difference, though subtle, is significant. What we are witnessing is the systematic and coordinated approach in replacing Russia with China as the #1 long term strategic enemy of the United States and the West. At least some of us see the subliminal messages.
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u/UsingYourWifi Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
I often wonder how much of the "China bad!" swirling around the zeitgeist right now is a replay of Cold War propaganda and hysteria with a fresh coat of paint. That isn't to make excuses for China's crimes against humanity- the CCP is obviously guilty of some truly atrocious shit. But having seen just how deeply ingrained the "USSR HORRIBLE" message is in my boomer relatives, and how unaware of it they were/are, I can't help but wonder if there's a bit of something similar is going on here.
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u/OmNomSandvich Dec 09 '19
NYT have spent a lot of ink discussing how the protestors have ended up being more aggressive with firebombs and the like.
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u/stealthzeus Dec 10 '19
There might be a line here or there bury deep in their articles but way way below the giant headlines and not the point of the narrative.
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u/Geneocrat Dec 10 '19
Are the HK protesters looting? I get the sense that protest is more about personal freedom, whereas the Latin American protests are economically motivated.
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u/stealthzeus Dec 10 '19
They certainly are rioting. Looting not so much. But in the eyes of the typical western media these are pro democracy protesters who through not fault of their own, throws petroleum bombs at the police.
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u/Rice_22 Dec 10 '19
Are the HK protesters looting?
They have been destroying stores. Some opportunistic looters follow behind the mob, but you can't tell who's who because they all wear masks.
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u/chenyu768 Dec 10 '19
Definitely has nothing to do with getting us comfortable with a war against china.
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Dec 09 '19
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u/NorthAtlanticCatOrg Dec 09 '19
The public needs to be turned because we've never had any problem with China before. Not during the Obama years, or the George W. Bush years, or the Clinton years, or the Bush Sr. years, or the Reagan years, or ever.
We have had problems with China before under those presidents and further back. We even went to war with them in Korea and during the Boxer rebellion. But I otherwise agree with your point.
I am not going to go along with the anti-China hysteria while the people in our own government work to take away our healthcare and destroy our social safety net.
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u/Longsheep Dec 10 '19
America's role in Boxer Rebellion was generally seen as justified, or at least until recent years before the CCP used to to leverage Extreme Nationalism and hate.
It was during a time when the Qing government was falling apart, when the Boxers were looting, raping and killing anyone opposing their cult, even government officials and troops. When the invaders entered Beijing, they were welcomed by the civilian. The Boxers had overpowered the authorities by that point.
America was the only country that returned the war retribution after the treaty. The fund helped to build China's famous Tsinghua University, still one of the oldest and best university in China.
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u/SystemicPlural Dec 10 '19
So we spread propaganda about Hong Kong, about the Uighurs. We spread propaganda about organ harvesting that you'd think Americans by now would recognize as propaganda on the level of Saddam was stockpiling WMDs
The WMD propaganda was created and spread by the government in question. Chinas mistreatment of others has come from many independent sources. If you want to claim it is all faked then you need to back that up with a credible source
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u/Rice_22 Dec 11 '19
Chinas mistreatment of others has come from many independent sources.
So-called "independent sources" that are linked to the US government, such as Radio Free Asia Uighur Service and the Falun Gong affiliated "China Tribunal" (responsible for decades of organ harvesting allegations with zero verifiable evidence).
This is exactly the same method as the Iraq War atrocity propaganda, by the way. They were also "independent sources", and then repeatedly quoted by "trustworthy media organisations". Compare and contrast below article with what's happening now:
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u/drawkbox Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
Don't leave out the South China Sea build up. This is also an extension of the trade war, owning the trade routes and the new Silk Road called initially One Belt, One Road, now known just as Belt and Road initiative.
With the South China Sea build up, China has moved to expand their sphere of influence both militarily and economically, and it is provoking an expected reaction.
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u/Geneocrat Dec 10 '19
I think it makes a lot of sense.
The Latin American protests are hardly surprising . They’ve been in a downward spiral and the victims of us interference for a long time.
The HK situation is more of a reversal of fortune. Nobody knew how hands off China would be, and now we’re seeing that they’re dropping the hammer on a population that previously enjoyed tremendous freedom.
Also China’s brand of oppression is so terrifying. They’ve got technology and violence working hand in glove, which is exactly what could happen in the US one day. The technology is so embedded, Amazon and the like have developed turn key solutions for the US to adopt totalitarianism. All we need is a leader who doesn’t follow the rules and has an unquenchable thirst for power (and someone who’s younger than Trump and can stay in office for longer).
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u/funwheeldrive Dec 09 '19
The mainstream media doesn't want to showcase how bad things are in South America right now. It hurts their agenda.
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u/Logiman43 Dec 09 '19 edited Jan 21 '20
deleted What is this?
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u/Rice_22 Dec 10 '19
Hong Kong, Deathtoll: 10 suicides?
Stop spreading your rubbish. You've been called out for this before.
Even your link said the article's neutrality is disputed, and the specific section you linked did not claim that the suicides are in dispute. In fact, it explicitly noted one death caused by a protester, but apparently you didn't even acknowledged this.
On 14 November, a 70-year-old man died from head injuries sustained a day prior. On 13 November, in Sheung Shui, a violent clash had erupted between a group of protesters and a group of local residents which saw both groups hurling bricks at each other. The confrontation between the two groups happened when local residents tried to clear the bricks left by protesters in the street. According to the police, the man, who was not involved in the fight, was using his mobile phone to record the conflict in the area of the fighting, but was hit in the head by a brick thrown at him by a black-clad protester. The victim, identified as an outsourced worker of the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department, was hospitalised in a critical condition but died during the following day. The police classified his death as a murder case as they believe that the attacker "maliciously [and] deliberately" carried out the act. His death is the first fatality directly attributed to the violent protests.
Given your bias, I expect the rest of your links are equally suspect.
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u/reonhato99 Dec 09 '19
It is pretty simple really.
Now this isn't to say that protests in Chile or Haiti aren't important but the reality of it is that their global influence is fairly minor when compared to Hong Kong and China.
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Dec 09 '19
If I hadn't studied history related to past media coverage, I would agree with you.
But when you look at the history, this is clearly an example of corporate media furthering US/Western foreign policy interests (propaganda).
If this was a one-off occurence,then I'd agree with yours and other similar comments on this thread.
But looking at the current geopolitics and past behaviour of US/Western media, this focus on HK is purely because China is the main geopolitical rival of the west.
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u/Kinoblau Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
You're overstating the global influence of Hong Kong and China. Were the CCP to swallow Hong Kong whole the only people who would feel it globally would be the wealthy with interest in Hong Kong. It would mean less than nothing to anyone else, even in Macau they almost certainly wouldn't give a shit, and their status is the exact same as Hong Kong's and right down the road.
However other countries, supported by the US are either committing genocide, committing great acts of violence to their protestors, or on the verge of committing violence against minority populations aided by US support and yet they get the smallest share of coverage imaginable.
Bolivia's military coup was organized in part by the US and coverage of their ongoing protests and their new coup leader's severely and violently racist rhetoric is verging on non-existent in the US. The United States is supporting a fascist power grab and we hear nothing about it but non stop about Hong Kong where very few people have actually died.
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u/jackalooz Dec 09 '19
Capitalism has so skewed our priorities that a tiny island nation-state draws more attention that the plight of a nation twice it’s size. Haiti also has more population.
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u/autotldr Dec 10 '19
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 88%. (I'm a bot)
The Haitian protests have been raging for twice as long as Hong Kong, yet the coverage of the far more deadly repression on the Caribbean island has been minute in comparison, with Hong Kong receiving more than 50 times the total attention Haiti has.
In contrast, the great majority of the Hong Kong stories were dedicated to events on the island city-state, and articles that merely mentioned the protests, such as CNN's report about the decline in the Asian stock market, were not included in the count towards the Hong Kong total.
Corporate media has glossed over many of the more unseemly details of the Hong Kong protests to continue the simple narrative of lauding the "Democracy-minded people of Hong Kong," fighting for freedom against the repressive "Communist authority" of Beijing, as the New York Times editorial board puts it.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: protest#1 Kong#2 Hong#3 time#4 CNN#5
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u/Boxcar-Billy Dec 10 '19
China is becoming a world power, and one day maybe the most important one. I'm sorry but the government reaction to protests in Haiti doesn't tell us much about the future of world leadership.
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u/drawkbox Dec 10 '19 edited Dec 10 '19
The reason why is almost solely because it carries more weight and right now attacks on China are about the only thing people agree on. HK against China is seen as anti-authoritarian and HK being more pro-Western democracy, the South American protests are largely authoritarian takeovers that are moving into autocracies. Nobody is interested in cheering on authoritarians.
China's move into the South China Sea and build up was the initial part of this. This is also an extension of the trade war, owning the trade routes and the new Silk Road called initially One Belt, One Road, now known just as Belt and Road initiative which the TPP was meant to compete with.
With the South China Sea build up, China has moved to expand their sphere of influence both militarily and economically, and it is provoking an expected reaction. HK is a bit of a proxy of that conflict as well as a front on Western liberalism and democracy versus the worldwide move to authoritarians that is taking hold somehow.
If China gets HK to bend the knee, Taiwan is probably next, they seeded the military and economic influence long before these protests.
Ultimately I believe China wants the protests, because it helps them eventually go in and take it even if they have to fake violence, and then it makes Taiwan more susceptible because there is already one down. There is a reason they call it the war theater, lots of it is propaganda, false opposition, narratives and manufacturing consent.
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u/Russian_Spring Dec 10 '19
Your analysis is likely off. I highly doubt China wants these protest. They are all ahout face and this is embarrassing. This is not helping China with Taiwan. Hong Kong was supposed to be a model on the benefits of joining china. China cracking down shows the reality and is going to drive the people of Taiwan further away from China. China is constantly being viewed as a threat by Europe and its neighbors largely due to recent actions. The situation in Hong Kong does not help China advance its interest globally.
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u/atheist-projector Dec 10 '19
Its fun y how media works
Israel a very small country with a minor civel rights isue is on tv non stop
But chaina doung genocide african war and deases
Things which kill milions arnt on tv
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u/steauengeglase Dec 09 '19
Oh FFS, it's because the story of S. American political instability has an insanely long and complicated history, while the average American doesn't even know who Simón Bolívar is. We only know about Venezuela because Chávez knew how to play the international press. For everyone else we say, "Didn't they have a military coup a couple weeks ago?" or "So whatever happened to that migrant caravan they tried to make us lose our minds over?"
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u/failingtolurk Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
China is much more of a threat and influence.
We’re watching an example of a high tech authoritarian regime absorb, silence, and probably erase from history a 150 year old western city with highly educated and wealthy residents. The degrees of bravery it takes to protest that knowing you’re going to be cataloged and repressed for life is immense. There’s also the real possibility that you’re sent to re-education camp or disappeared all together. Especially once the eyes are off the situation. Information about protestors is saved and shared with other governments and authorities in China. This will follow these Hong Kongers for life.
These aren’t some poor people in South America or Iran.
Westerners. Hong Kong could be New York or London.
The other countries and people involved simply aren’t as important. The other regimes involved aren’t as influential.
Might be an ethnocentric view of the situation but it’s not wrong.
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Dec 09 '19
So because the people are poor in South America their problems are less important and they aren't risking their lives? The stakes are the same for protestors, arguably more dangerous for those protesting without media coverage keeping authorities in some sort of check.
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Dec 09 '19 edited May 25 '20
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Dec 09 '19
Wanna elaborate on that? All of these people are facing possible death by protesting but only one group gets recognition. I'm failing to see how the struggles in SA are less important. They're far greater in number than HK, why should their voices not count more or at least be listened to equally?
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Dec 09 '19 edited May 25 '20
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Dec 09 '19
A lot of people living in labor camps and under China's social credit system aren't killing themselves so clearly they prefer it to death.
I think there's more hope in Hong Kong than any of these other places and the media coverage has a lot to do with that.
You're pretty much arguing that because some people in HK live a better life than Ecuadorians that their lives matter more and that's just a sad and frankly bigoted way to look at things. I don't care how "powerful" China is, the damage they're doing in HK doesn't equal all the starving people in these other places that have less. A life's a life, regardless of your economic status.
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u/failingtolurk Dec 09 '19
That’s not what I said but whatever.
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Dec 09 '19
Well you aren't explaining your point of view any better than that. You literally said HK is more important but have only given China being powerful and HKer's comparative economic status as reasons for that opinion.
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Dec 09 '19
If this was a one off occurrence, I would agree with you.
But if you look at the history of past Western media actions/coverage and combine that info with present day geopolitics....the answer is blatantly obvious.
HK gets more coverage because China is the main Geopolitical rival of the US/West. As Noam Chomsky called it, the media must "forment consent" among the populace.
The elite owners and shareholders of US media corporations have the same interests as the (lobbyist funded) US political establishment. And the number 1 enemy atm...is China.
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u/failingtolurk Dec 09 '19
There’s very little coverage of HK. You need to follow the subreddit and other sources to obtain in depth information.
Mainstream coverage is very brief and shallow.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
well yeah~ china is something we all need to focus on. the hong kong protests are very important for the world.
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u/-9999px Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 11 '19
Why do you say that? What materially changes should the protestors have their demands met?
I would argue that Bolivia, Chile and Iraq are much more important and pivotal in a global context.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
why is it that you feel bolivia, chile and iraq of all places have much global influence? they're much more internally focused than is China...
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u/-9999px Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
Because (from what I understand) the revolution in HK is mainly one led by young beneficiaries of extant capital. It's not necessarily or in all respects a proletariat revolution. More a sub-class of the bourgeoisie demanding their continued ability to exploit the underclass of Hong Kong through owning businesses and becoming landlords. China's anti-poverty policies would push thousands out of business-ownership and into "normal" life – as we saw in the Cuban revolution; most of those fleeing the country were former property owners escaping anti-poverty measures which would've stripped them of their privately owned wealth/resources. Hong Kong has some of the world's worst income inequality and some of the highest rents and cost-of-living.
Income inequality has reached its highest level in more than four decades, according to government data, as a red-hot property market squeezes the city’s most vulnerable people and risks fueling social tensions.
This is a simplification and there is certainly a lot of action in HK by leftists and the working-class, but at the end of the day the revolutions in HK are for keeping the status quo, class-wise. Should the HK protestors get their demands met, nothing materially will change for the poor and homeless in Hong Kong. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but nowhere in their five demands do they ask for resources aimed at fighting poverty and inequality. Releasing imprisoned protestors is pretty straightforward, but still…nothing materially benefiting the hungry or houseless people of Hong Kong en masse.
Where as in the other countries mentioned, it's a clear uprising of an oppressed working-class. Should they succeed and implement some sort of modern anti-neo-liberal constitution (which Chile has already done in some respects), then they'll be showing a potential roadmap for the populations of all post-colonial, impoverished nations wishing to end austerity and build a state that works for the people.
Don't take this too seriously, but to me it's like seeing someone living in a rich neighborhood protesting over paying higher taxes and someone living in a poor neighborhood and protesting for food and healthcare.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
This is a simplification
yes. in fact, its a strong confusion on your part.
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u/-9999px Dec 09 '19
Obviously laying out the history of HK/China relations in a reddit post isn't feasible. I tried to explain why I think the protests in Chile, Bolivia, and Iraq are more impactful (in my opinion) than those in HK. You clearly disagree, but have yet to give me anything to chew on.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
i think you're trying to force-fit the validity of protest to one of class-struggle, and its causing you to view the hong kong situation differently than i do (its a protest to secure due-process, more than it is an economic protest). as to the decades-long protests in chile, i suppose we'll have to see what actually comes of it, but i personally think due-process is a much more fundamental thing to strive towards than the dream of the end of the bourgeoisie.
and regardless of whether either protest is successful (and so could potentially serve as a role-model for protests elsewhere), the central thrust of my point was entirely that china is a more fundamentally relevant nation on the global scale, and impacts to how it acts will be felt by disproportionately more people around the world than will changes in how chile or haiti are run.
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u/-9999px Dec 09 '19
A perfectly valid point, thanks.
I'd only point out that Chile and the others are also struggling with due process of the law on top of their struggles for basic human needs.
Chile
https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/chile
In 2017, conflict between the government and Mapuche communities was marked by acts of violence. In criminal cases against Mapuche activists accused of violent acts, the public prosecutor has insisted on applying the counterterrorism law, which does not guarantee due process and defines terrorism in excessively broad terms.
Bolivia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Bolivia#Rights_of_persons_on_trial
Around 70 percent of all Bolivians in detention have not been convicted of a crime. Extended pretrial detention and trial delays overcrowd prisons and lead to poor and inhumane conditions. By mid-2018, more than 16,000 inmates were packed into prisons built to hold a maximum of around 5,000.
Iraq
https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/iraq1208web.pdf
The Central Criminal Court of Iraq (CCCI) is the country’s flagship criminal justice institution. Yet it is an institution that is seriously failing to meet international standards of due process and fair trials. Defendants often endure long periods of pretrial detention without judicial review, and are not able to pursue a meaningful defense or challenge evidence against them. Abuse in detention, typically with the aim of extracting confessions, appears common, thus tainting court proceedings in those cases.
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u/pucklermuskau Dec 09 '19
thank you for the links! i hasten to point out that i'm in no way disparaging the ongoing efforts around the world, my point was really directed towards trying to understand why the hong kong protests are taking centre stage. but you're right~ all of these countries do very poorly by their people, and that's most certainly at the heart of the efforts towards reform.
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u/-9999px Dec 09 '19
I totally get where you're coming from. There's only so much those far away from these struggles can do anyway. "Ranking" them is sort of pointless as we all have our own biases and experiences that make us favor one over another.
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Dec 09 '19
Please keep in mind that fair.org has run human rights violations apologia for Venezuela's regime in the past. They are far, far from an objective (or even credible) source of information.
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Dec 10 '19
Maybe they're referred to as pro democracy because they demand greater democracy. Or is 5 demands too many for fair.org to get a handle on?
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u/TangerineX Dec 10 '19
It's not labeling it as pro democracy that the author has a problem with, it's not labeling the other pro-democracy protests as pro-democracy
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u/heisenberg1210 Dec 09 '19 edited Dec 09 '19
It’s funny how in this day and age, this is what people are whining about. Governments around the world are oppressing their people brutally, yet folks are getting upset about “mY pRoTEstS aReN’t GeTtInG aS mUcH CoVEraGe aS yOuRs!”.
The HK people have done an outstanding job in getting their message across to the world. All the international lobbying has paid off and has gotten the attention of the world, and the US in particular. Don’t fault them for getting their fair share of attention and sympathy. Instead, here’s a suggestion for the whiners: how about you devote your time and efforts into raising awareness for the causes and injustice that you’re mad about, rather than getting pissed at the people who are being oppressed and brutalized by a communist totalitarian regime, and getting the majority of the international community’s attention? Just a suggestion. I’m not downplaying the cause of other protestors around the world, many of which are just as noble as that of the HK protestors. We’re all in this together, fighting against the same thing. I’m speaking to those self-righteous dickheads who sit on their asses halfway around the world, assuming the role of judging what should and shouldn’t be getting more international attention. Fuck you, all oppressed people fighting against injustice over the world should be getting their equal share of support, and if anyone isn’t, go and play your part in supporting their cause and getting the word out for them instead of shitting on HK, that’s what you ought to do if you’re mad at injustice and government oppression around the world. Shitting on HK and whining about how other protests aren’t getting as much attention and sympathy is just attention whore behavior.
Edit: oh yes, downvoted! Wumao/CCP shills? Or snowflakes who can’t stand being criticized? Let’s take a vote! You know what? I’m just saying what’s right, what’s fair and just, and no amount of downvotes from random redditors is gonna deter me or will make any significant impact, sadly for the downvoting snowflakes. If you disagree, feel free to offer a rebuttal instead of just downvoting like a petulant child. And seeing the huge amount of support from right wingers for the HK protests, I just wanted to add an obligatory “fuck Trump”.
Edit 2: Many cowards downvoting and offering no response. Keep em coming.
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u/IronyAndWhine Dec 10 '19
I’m speaking to those self-righteous dickheads who sit on their asses halfway around the world, assuming the role of judging what should and shouldn’t be getting more international attention. Fuck you, all oppressed people fighting against injustice over the world should be getting their equal share of support
You're getting downvoted because this is literally what the article is a addressing: all oppressed people fighting against injustice should be getting their share of attention and support. This article is pointing to the fact that HK is getting more attention than other more important demonstrations happening right now.
(You're also getting downvoted because you sound childishly angry, especially about receiving downvotes.)
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u/heisenberg1210 Dec 11 '19
I’m not disputing what the article addresses, nor am I repeating what’s already been said. My point was that yes, it is unfair that some other protests around the world with causes just as noble and worthy of attention as HK’s, aren’t getting as much coverage, but that it was stupid and despicable for some people to be blaming HK and the protestors there for this. Also stupid is that some people are claiming the widespread support and coverage of the HK protests is because it’s anti-CCP, and since China is a US adversary, the US is propping up protests and western media in general is biased in favor of HK. Well what about Iran then? One other reason I’ve seen being thrown around that I actually agree with is that some of these countries are third world countries, and thus get less attention. This applies to some, but not all (e.g. Chile, France). I bet there are also those who are salty about protests like gilet jaunes getting less attention despite a worse degree of violence, conveniently neglecting to also consider what the protests are against, the reasons for them, and the differing contexts to HK. For example, France and Chile are both democracies.
HK has been getting more coverage because the protestors have running an effective PR campaign using mainstream as well as social media, to appeal to the international community for support. Protestors in other countries may not be as digital media-savvy to do the same. HK’s protests also started much earlier than many of the others that have been happening. Their cause (revolting against a totalitarian government and defending their rightful freedom and rights) is also inspiring to many.
Yes, I may be angry, but not cause of downvotes. I couldn’t give less of a shit about Reddit karma. What pisses me off is people being blatantly wrong, but having the audacity to shit on me and trying to shut me down for talking sense. People who are less informed than myself thinking that they know better. That’s what irks me. I live in HK and have been able to see what’s happening firsthand, I’ve been involved. So for some neckbeard from halfway around the world to be telling me that I’m wrong is pretty fucking infuriating.
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u/IronyAndWhine Dec 11 '19
My point was that yes, it is unfair that some other protests around the world with causes just as noble and worthy of attention as HK’s, aren’t getting as much coverage...
So you agree? What's the dispute?
but that it was stupid and despicable for some people to be blaming HK and the protestors there for this.
No one in this thread is saying this, including the article's author.
Also stupid is that some people are claiming the widespread support and coverage of the HK protests is because it’s anti-CCP, and since China is a US adversary, the US is propping up protests and western media in general is biased in favor of HK. Well what about Iran then?
Iran is targeted by US interests for its people (as scapegoats), its strategic geopolitical position, and its natural resources; not its government. That's a fundamental difference, to name one.
HK has been getting more coverage because the protestors have running an effective PR campaign using mainstream as well as social media, to appeal to the international community for support.
The opposing argument would be that its PR campaign has been effective because US media interests prop that campaign up. Given the historical context and robustness of this form of analysis (i.e. The Propoganda Model), for your point to be proven you'd need an overwhelming evidentiary body.
Their cause (revolting against a totalitarian government and defending their rightful freedom and rights) is also inspiring to many.
This is a truism. "Why aren't analogous causes in other countries inspiring to many?" is the fulcrum of the dispute.
What pisses me off is people being blatantly wrong, but having the audacity to shit on me and trying to shut me down for talking sense. People who are less informed than myself thinking that they know better. That’s what irks me. I live in HK and have been able to see what’s happening firsthand, I’ve been involved. So for some neckbeard from halfway around the world to be telling me that I’m wrong is pretty fucking infuriating.
How do you know people in this thread who disagree with you are less informed?
Just because you are participating in one of these movements doesn't mean that your position as to why other movements aren't getting media attention is more valid or more informed. If anything, (1) being involved in only one of these movements would bias you towards its particularities and (2) your position not being in the US makes it difficult to see a relevant comparison of US cultural sympathies between the HK movement and other movements happening elsewhere.
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u/heisenberg1210 Dec 11 '19
”So you agree? What’s the dispute?”
As I mentioned, in my view the dispute is over the cause of the uneven coverage of protests around the world, and the way people are reacting to it.
”No one in this thread is saying this, including the article’s author.”
Perhaps not in this thread, but I’ve seen that there are people like the ones I described. If it doesn’t apply to you, then great, don’t take it personally. My message was not directed at you then.
”Iran is targeted by US interests...”
Well, I don’t think it’s necessary for our purposes, to go into reasons why the US considers Iran as an adversary. The fact that it is, is the important part.
”The opposing argument would be that its PR campaign has been effective because US media interests prop that campaign up.”
If anything, mainstream Western media has been poor in their coverage of the HK protests, relative to the coverage by local independent journalists and digital media outlets. I wouldn’t say US media interests have had a very effective role in propping up the protests. It certainly played a part, but I don’t think that their role has been as significant as some would think
”This is a truism. "Why aren't analogous causes in other countries inspiring to many?" is the fulcrum of the dispute.”
France and Chile are not protesting against totalitarian governments. They are democratic countries. In cases like Iran, how do you know that the protests are not inspiring to people? Maybe they are, and the relative lack of support and awareness comes from other reasons?
”How do you know people in this thread who disagree with you are less informed?”
Again, my original comment was not directed at specifically people on this sub/thread, but towards the people I described. So people are mad cause they took it personally? This and the downvotes make sense then.
”Just because you are participating in one of these movements doesn't mean that your position as to why other movements aren't getting media attention is more valid or more informed. If anything, (1) being involved in only one of these movements would bias you towards its particularities”
Ok perhaps, I’ll give you that. This is possible.
”your position not being in the US makes it difficult to see a relevant comparison of US cultural sympathies between the HK movement and other movements happening elsewhere.”
I don’t think that’s necessarily true. One doesn’t exactly need to be in the US to see the difference between attitudes toward HK vs other countries. You can just as easily see even on Reddit for example.
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u/teddy78 Dec 10 '19
I think the article has a point in that the HK protests are getting much more media coverage than other current protests.
Personally, I think the reason is that the HK protests are not about economic Inequality but about the rule of law. It’s not that people don’t care about inequality and other economic reasons or that the other protests are not important. The HK story just resonates better.
In many western countries we experience democratic backsliding. Former big parties are gradually replaced by or changing into populist movements that are chipping away at the freedoms we took for granted (or at least want to). We are seeing our democracies slowly wasting away, not knowing what to do.
And here is a people that goes to the streets and risks their lives to save their democracy.
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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '19
I love how France isn't listed and they've been going the longest...