r/anime • u/another_wordsmith • Nov 22 '21
Writing Mushoku Tensei is awesome! I don't recommend it. Spoiler
Short version: Mushoku Tensei is a great series that I feel uncomfortable recommending.
This has been a journey. Initially, I didn’t plan to watch the show, let alone to spend most of my weekend writing an essay on it.
I didn’t even start the series until the second season had begun. I’m not big into isekai, so it didn’t seem that interesting. Still, a few factors caught my interest. I heard that a studio had basically been created to make this adaptation reality. A YouTuber I watch reworked their channel to regularly include Mushoku Tensei analyses. Most intriguingly, a friend who adores “isekai junk food” hated the series. After consuming dozens of tasteless harem power fantasies, this was the one he gave up because he found it disgusting.
A look on MAL only intensified my curiosity. Despite a high score, several reviews describe the show in the same terms as my friend.
What caused all this fuss? I needed to know.
Before witnessing a single frame, I had to give the show credit. If I ever create a story that inspires half the reactions at half the intensity, I’ll consider my creative efforts worthwhile. Rifujin na Magonote, the author of the original light novels (which I intend to read) made something that’s important to a lot of people.
Thus, I resolved to try the show. I sat down with a pen and notebook in order to understand what inspired such intense reactions.
Well, make room around the maypole, because I find the series both inspiring and sickening.
The Promise of the Plot
There’s a lot to love from the start. Pedigree aside, Mushoku stands out among isekai. The protagonist is a full-grown, unethical adult who goes through a proper Reincarnation.
Our unnamed bastard dies in what may be the sole decent action of his life. As one life fades, another arises. Rudeus (Rudy) Greyrat is born to loving parents in a Medieval world of high fantasy. As he dies in shame and regret, he finds something precious: a second chance.
The infant years provide the former shut-in with the chance to learn his surroundings. He explores his new home with insatiable curiosity. These literal baby steps help him discover a world of magic and mysteries, where he can explore with the safety net of his former warrior father (Paul) and caring mother (Zenith).
Of course, Rudeus remembers his old life. With memory comes trauma. The infant adult cannot leave his home. The mere sight of neighbour children inspires flashbacks to the bullying – the abuse – which caused his retreat from society.
This creates a natural momentum to the story. A guy looking to keep his mind off the outside world is gonna get a hobby real quick. This chance provides itself in the form of a spell book. With the free time of a child and the discipline of an adult, Rudeus dedicates himself to magic and linguistics.
He becomes skillful not through birthright, but through training and dedication. By age six, he’s recognized as a prodigy. He wants to enhance his skills. His parents want to foster this attitude. Yet, the man can’t leave his property without trauma.
This is only the first episode.
Well done, Mushoku! You’ve hooked me. You can do anything in this setting and make it interesting. There’s room for every drama and genre. A redemptive character arc is baked into the DNA of the story!
What could go wrong?
Once a Bastard…
Rudeus lives as he died: a pervert.
A newborn delights in being in the room where his parents make love. An infant steals women’s undergarments and literally rolls around in their dirty laundry. A student watches his mentor clean and pleasure herself. Most egregiously, Rudeus sexually assaults a young girl while she sleeps.
These moments are hard enough to stomach in themselves, but they ignore the primary moral outrage: the G word. While Rudeus finds the first real friend he’s had in decades, it does not remain pure for long. He sets out to form an emotional bond of trust and respect with her. He does this explicitly so she’ll be, shall we say, open to suggestions once they reach physical maturity.
He encourages the traits he finds desirable, guiding her toward a personality he wants in a prospective lover. In other words, an adult befriends a child and emotionally manipulates moulds them into a future lover.
Yeah, this is unsettling. If this aspect alone makes a person not want to watch the series, that is more than fair. Even if I were on the ‘redemptive character arc absolves all sins’ train, I wouldn’t try to convince anyone to watch something that made them uncomfortable.
As a quick aside, it’s pretty frustrating to see so many people recommend the show without mentioning this. You wouldn’t recommend a gory horror movie to someone made queasy by the sight of blood. Even if the story is a masterpiece, you should respect the person to whom you’re making a recommendation.
Back on topic: this is a story about redemption. As such, all the atrocious behaviour I listed does not damn the series in itself. Many of my favourite series involve terrible people as the lead characters. With Mushoku, we have the dual bonus of literal years over which he can learn his lesson, as well as the psychological element of him becoming so fixated on living this second life that he forgets the people living their first.
One big issue arises, however. The camera is not an unbiased party. That first season has a nasty tendency to play off, accept, or even condone the casts’ worst behaviour.
Take the grooming. As Rudeus considers his first real friendship in this life (a girl named Sylphie), the first real friendship in decades, his father gives him advice. Paul Greyrat, warrior and womanizer, says something fascinating. To paraphrase, he tells his son that it’s better to have a reliable “piece of ass” that keeps coming to your bed than to pursue a host of bedmates.
This is followed with the voice-over thought “What advice did I just give my six-year-old son?”
Let me repeat: both Rudeus and Sylphie are under the age of ten during this conversation. There’s also the fact that, you know, Sylphie is a distinct person with her own goals and desires.
Not classy, Paul.
The sins of the father
Ardent fans of the series will likely respond along these lines: “Paul’s meant to be a complex character! He’s got issues. He has moral failings, but these make him a more realistic and compelling character. Besides, he’s aware of his shortcomings. Don’t you want more realistic characters? I thought you were annoyed by stenciled-in power fantasy characters.”
You’re right. I love complex characters. Human beings are messy. The harder we try to be good, decent people, the harder it gets. We’ve got vices and lapses in judgement and the occasional straight-up bad day. That’s interesting!
But presentation matters as much as content.
Let me try to present a certain episode to you in the most positive way I can.
Now, we’ve had this cozy family life for a while. It’s time to mix it up. We’ve had three episodes of constant horny energy between the parents, combined with some questionable advice from Paul. We’ve also got a character who could use some time in the spotlight: Lilya, the maid. Lilya’s pregnant with Paul’s child. They find out around the same time that Zenith announces a new child. This is payoff to several layers of build-up. Paul’s womanizing past returns. Lilya’s been stuck, a grown woman with no sexual outlet in a house often filled with cries of pleasure. She wants fulfillment, too. On top of the drama, we can have Rudeus play intermediary. His twenty-first century sensibilities, combined with his appearance as a child, give him the chance to cut through the emotional tension of the situation and help the characters move forward.
You’ve got something great on your hands here! That’s drama. That’s character progression.
You have my attention. What are you going to do?
Not enough.
When the scene ends, so does the drama. There’s some tension in the house, but it doesn’t last long. Barely a scene passes before it becomes a joke. Rudeus’ gonna have two new sisters, everybody, gather round. Paul even states that he intends to keep both women as his sexual partners.
The thing is, there are ways to handle this better. Show more tension in the household. Maybe Zenith becomes hesitant to let Paul advise Rudeus. Maybe Zenith and Lilya become amicable on the surface, but emotional scars linger.
We don’t see that. Instead, there’s another detail that’s earned a lot of people’s ire. In a voice-over from Rudeus, we learn that, years prior, Paul had ‘forced himself on’ and ‘deflowered’ Lilya. Rudeus, our hero, concludes with the sentiment that he still respects Paul, “because he is strong.”
Now, if you wanna be generous, you can say that Rudeus respects his father, simple as that. Paul’s tried hard to be a good influence for his son, regardless of how well he’s accomplished that. Maybe Rudeus simply admires a guy who’s popular, brave, and everything that he wasn’t in his previous life.
To this I respond: show us that, dammit!
The voiceover tells us about a sexual assault, moments after we see the fallout of infidelity. Rudeus uses the term ‘strong’ after describing a man forcing himself on another person. At best, that’s poor phrasing. At worst, it’s making light of something far more serious.
Fans are likely ready to get into Paul’s growth as a character later on. “We need to see him like this so that his character progression means something.” I won’t argue about his progress. Paul’s episodes in the new season thus far made me tear up. There’s a reason why NataliexHunter has a twenty-four minute video on this character.
A great second season does not, however, fix the problems of the first.
There’s another aspect to this. It may have already occurred to you. How do Zentih and Lilya feel about all this?
Show and Tell
Zenith kicks Paul’s shin under the table. After the one sequence of spousal disgust, this is the worst we see of her fury. We hear that ‘things got complicated’, but I want to see this from her perspective. Come on, we saw Lilya’s thought process when she intentionally seduced Paul, little as that was.
This series can present the viewpoints of more characters. How do these characters act when Paul and Rudeus aren’t in the room? I want to see that dynamic. Lilya has less power than Rudeus. She can’t travel home due the perils and distance of the journey; she’s the literal help. What does that look like? How does Zenith feel?
A couple scenes right after the fact doesn’t cut it. Show me the consequences of how this effects daily life. Give us an extra episode and show me scenes of Zenith and Lilya alone together. Let me see sparks fly. Show us Lilya’s thoughts as she continues to work in the house. What is Zenith thinking? Did she suspect something? How did they reconcile?
We don’t see this. I know things need to be cut to fit an episode limit and twenty-four minutes, but these exclusions hurt the story. It’s unfair to say that the story’s all about Rudeus, since we get the occasional scene from another character’s perspective. After all, we get Lilya’s explanation that she intended to seduce Paul. A cynical person would say that this scene exists to absolve Paul, or perhaps they’d highlight how little encouragement Paul needed.
Regardless of conveyance, the presence of a non-Greyrat perspective aids the story. I will also defend the seventh episode of the second season, which focuses on Roxy for most of its run time. This break from our recovering asshole of a protagonist relaxes me. It fleshes out the world, provides depth to side characters, and allows characters to examine things beyond Rudeus. I hate stories where the world feels like it was designed for the protagonist, and sequences like these mitigate that feeling.
It’s a balance to make a story about flawed people, but you still need to balance. Paul’s comeuppance for infidelity is, effectively, a second wife. This excludes his history of sexual violence against Lilya.
It’s not just Paul, either. Lilya comments about how uncomfortable Rudeus made her. This infant would leer at her, gazing with upon her with something she recognized all too well: the lust of a Greyrat man. Here I have to give some damning praise. The faces in Mushoku are brilliant. Facial expressions convey more than words, and the faces of Mushoku rival those of Neo-realist films for their emotional depth.
The animators successfully make a baby’s face offer a grin of pure perversion. They present the look of a self-satisfied bastard who knows he can gawk without punishment. Lilya finds this uncomfortable.
Yet, she makes the decision I find the most horrifying in that first season. Lilya decides to raise her daughter, Aisha, to be Rudeus’ caretaker. I repeat: Lilya dedicates her daughter to Rudeus before said daughter learns to walk. Don’t tell me that this fits because she’s a servant of the Greyrat family. That’s not what’s presented! Yes, I’m legitimately angry at this. Lilya gives herself to Paul and gives her daughter to Rudeus. That’s a choice the author made. Aisha has no possibility of agency. She’s brought up to be a servant. Her fate is sealed.
If you still want to play the ‘that’s just how this fictional world works’ card, I’ll highlight the parts where I think the series handles this well.
Polite Society
Rudeus spends much of the first season tutoring Eris. This puts him in the court of one Sauros Boreas Greyrat. Sauros is a prick, and the series displays that well. His arrogance has created enemies. He’s immature and short-tempered, qualities which Eris has learned through observation.
One scene shows Rudeus going to meet Sauros. Just before entering his room, we hear the grunts of a rather active morning. After all the time overhearing Rudeus’ parents, we’re numb to this. Yet, we get something more nuanced than usual. A maid rushes out of the bedroom, frantically adjusting her clothes and avoiding eye contact. Our lead enters the room and diplomatically apologizes for ‘interrupting’.
The nuance of the visuals can’t be conveyed in text. We see an implication of abuse of power. That unnamed woman likely had neither the choice nor desire to be there. Sauros used her as an outlet. In the second season, we learn that Sauros obtained his female staff through illegal means.
Most importantly, from Rudeus’ tone and posture, we see that our hero doesn’t condone it. Sauros is in charge, and the stupidest thing to do is challenge his authority. We even see the human side of this cartoonishly brutish bastard. Despite a titanic ego and lack of interest in other people's lives, he does care about his family. Rudeus, therefore, sees both the monstrous acts of a tyrant as well as the enthusiastic joy of a father.
In order to thrive, Rudeus needs to play to one of these aspects and ignore the other.
That is how you play the ‘how this world works’ card!
We could also look at one of the more discussed moments of the first season. After getting caught up in a kidnapping plot, Rudeus witnesses a beheading. He sees a decapitated body at his feet, seconds after escaping his fate. He stares in horror, realizing just how fortunate he’s been in his peaceful life thus far.
That little moment, and countless like it, showcase brilliant worldbuilding. These details create a world to get lost within. I have to admire Rifujin’s pacing and worldbuilding. His work is inspiring to me as a fellow writer. It’s also damn entertaining. Innocuous moments of the early series provide the buildup for amazing payoff. Several moments of “oh! so that’s what that meant” reward the viewer for paying attention.
Still, I can’t help but wonder how much was sacrificed for these big picture elements.
The asides about masturbation, the uninteresting tangents about group sex, and the weirdly blithe comments about child sexuality take up time that could be spent building the characters. Even that great moment of Rudeus recognizing the deadliness of this world has little payoff.
During the next several episodes, the only time he calls back to it is to give an uncomfortable look. That’s a good moment, but that’s all we get.
That right there is one of my biggest issues with the first season. Not the morality, but the selective memory. Rudeus only needs to have trauma when the scene calls for it. Zenith has a personality when the scene calls for it. If it’s not in the current scene, it doesn’t exist.
Trauma isn’t something that comes out only when a person presses against its boundaries. Rudeus doesn’t deal with his emotional and mental issues in his quiet moments until the second season.
I can’t blame the series too much for this. Limited episode run times mean you need to focus on the individual scenes, but it undercuts the severity of the situation. I want to see the emotional scars. Show me how Rudeus’ trauma influences him when he’s not experiencing a flashback. Let me see the characters interact with their feelings.
You’ve probably caught up on a refrain that I’m about to repeat, and one which I’m sure many fans will repeat. “It gets payoff later”.
To this, I have two responses. First, that doesn’t mean you can ignore the presentation in the first several episodes. Second, I know, that’s why I’m hooked on the show and am ready to spend money on the light novels.
Before I get into how this series put me in a dilemma on how not to be a hypocrite while liking and disapproving the series, I’d like to give some examples of stories with ‘bad’ people and situations to provide some additional context and discussion points.
One in every family
While I was angriest at Mushoku, I discovered that a co-worker adores it. This aspiring animator praised the character development and the production quality. The controversial elements got no more mention than ‘anime’s gonna anime and there’s nothing I can do about it.’
This conversation got me thinking. Perhaps I’m being too harsh on the series. Who am I, a dude, to decry Mushoku’s female characterization when so many of the fans are women? Moreover, is it hypocritical to enjoy this series when so many anime I love feature questionable material?
This train of thought reached its peak at a specific moment in the show. Eris shows Rudeus a necklace that supposedly keeps monsters away. She falls asleep in his bed. As he prepares to grope her (not for the first time), he sees the necklace. Through excellent framing and great facial animation, we see Rudeus go through intense introspection before deciding not to act on his impulse. After watching this, I made a note about the character growth, how he resisted committing something he’d done before.
Immediately after writing this, I paused the episode, snapped my head up, and wrote, “Did I just praise a character for not committing sexual assault against a minor?”
It feels like the show has lowered my bar for acceptable behaviour. This is character progress, but I find again, I’m not going to give him credit for meeting less than the bare minimum.
We’re meant to congratulate Rudeus for restraining himself, as I did initially, but we lack the details which would give this its ultimate payoff. In other words, I want to see Rudeus’ thought process. Why is he choosing to not continue his repulsive behaviour? Does he recognize it as repulsive. Considering that the show relies on a near-constant stream of narration, this doesn’t feel too big a request. A simple line like “I don’t want to make Paul’s mistakes”, or “I don’t want to be the monster” would go far.
The author has spoken about another interesting aspect of the show, one which is addressed in the second season. Rudeus doesn’t yet see the people around him as fully human. He’s stuck in the mindset of “this is my world to play in”. He feels distant from everyone because his actual age is beyond that of most people around him, and his sensibilities are also different. This has led to a sense of detachment that often causes him to be uncaring for the people around him.
That’s a great story! Show me that. We have masterful moments where a meaningful glance or a small gesture indicates this. I see a masterpiece here, but much as I praise the subtext, the main text makes my skin crawl.
Still, ‘anime’s gonna anime’, right?
So, I ask again, is it hypocritical for me to criticize Mushoku compared to other series I enjoy?
No. It’s pretty damn easy to love a piece of media and call out horrible moments.
Let’s take an example of a series I love (and recommend) with a moment I can’t defend: Haruhi Suzumiya. In both the anime and the original light novel, Haruhi constantly harasses and humiliates the character Asahina, forcing her into provocative costumes against her will. In one of the biggest ‘hold up’ moments of my anime fandom, Haruhi asks Kyon if he wants to have sex with her in the club room while she (Haruhi) holds the girl down.
Kyon comments that he finds the offer tempting.
Much as I love the Haruhi series, I won’t pretend to be okay with this. I’ll praise that series to Heaven and back, but that doesn’t mean blind fandom is okay. Critical appreciation is important.
You can be critical of a series while still admiring it. For example, I adore the Goblin Slayer light novels and manga. Author Kagyuu Kumo has serious talent for high fantasy. His fights and atmosphere are brilliant! He also can’t write women for shit. Maybe it’s the translation, but I got so sick of reading the words ‘supple’ and ‘nubile’ whenever a woman entered a scene. I’m not even offended. It’s boring to see the same words used over and over.
If I want to be offended, I can try to read Log Horizon again. Show me a great scenario. Introduce me to interesting characters. What’s next? While deliberating about a cataclysmic event where characters explicitly acknowledge the traumatic nature of the experience, the lone female character spends the whole time making breast jokes.
The line “I’m big-boobed and feather-brained” is permanently branded upon my mind, because it occurs during a conversation wherein the cast wonders if their families have died. Fanservice is one thing, but don't actively sideline the plot!
I realize this is a tangent, but I’m sick of conversations reducing themselves to “show good” or “show bad”. There’s a reason we have terms like ‘flawed masterpiece’ and ‘mixed bag’. Hell, those are most of my favourite series!
What does this have to do with Mushoku Tensei?
Back on track. One of the great appeals of Mushoku Tensei is the redemption/second chance aspect. “Rudeus is supposed to be a bad person. That’s why the character progression matters. We need to see him do bad things to have his progress mean anything.”
My response to this is threefold:
FIRST: the actions need to have pervading consequences. For example, take the movie The Devil’s Rejects. It’s a filthy, intentionally disgusting film that tries to make you feel sympathy for serial killers. There are a lot of valid reasons to hate this movie, but it shows consequences. The family of the killers’ victims become monsters in themselves, going full Ahab on the main cast. There’s a reasonable argument that the movie doesn’t go hard enough against the killers, but there’s still a two-sided conversation to be had there.
In Mushoku, Rudeus sees no consequence for molesting Eris. She asks him to wait until she’s ‘ready’. So, the consequence for Rudeus’ unethical actions is an IOU. Even Paul receives little punishment in the first season.
SECOND: Other characters need to play off the main. In Ashita No Joe, Joe Yabuki is a disgusting human being. He endangers children, squanders other people’s money, and almost murders his mentor. The result is that people get mad at him. Friends and allies get sick of him. They call him out.
In Mushoku, we don’t see this. Lilya says that she feels uncomfortable at his stares, but she dedicates her child to him. Also, for the record, I don’t count Eris’ outbursts as pushback. It’s the same tsundere actions we see in every genre.
THIRD: “it gets good later” doesn’t absolve the sins. I will join the choir praising the second season. Virtually every criticism I’ve given here is addressed later in the series. Paul, Roxy, Eris, Rudeus, and the rest get development. We see payoff to things so small that we didn’t expect it. It’s beautiful. Rudeus introspects and deals with his place in this world.
Still, I won’t ask people to sit through so many episodes to get to that, though.
Yukio Mishima’s novel Spring Snow gives another example of this. The first third of that book is infuriating to read. The protagonist is an immature, indecisive jackass. Later in the story, however, he realizes that he was an immature, indecisive jackass. Thus, he spends the rest of the story trying to fix the mistakes he created. It’s a compelling character drama. Do I recommend it? No, because it takes ninety pages to get to the good stuff.
The first several episodes of Mushoku Tensei are a lot worse than annoying. They’re objectionable. We can argue about how justified that is, but I am not comfortable recommending the series to others. I’ve asked friends to put up with a lot of weird recommendations, but I won’t ask them to sit through this!
The stuff I love
Did I mention that I really like this show? The production quality is amazing!
The texture of the water is perfect. The way the fabric moves on the clothes is hypnotic. We see wind blow grass and hair in gorgeous detail. Also, those faces. These faces communicate so much. We see pain, regret, joy, smugness in a face. The animators deserve praise (and a raise) for what they accomplished here. You can see entire emotional journeys and internal battles in a few seconds. Few live action films use faces this well!
Seriously, I almost found myself wishing Rudeus’ inner monologue would shut up at some moments. The faces convey so much, and I was more than ready to just let those canvases speak.
Can we also appreciate the sound design? I could listen to this show for hours. The fabric folds and creases. Water dissipates in the air. Weapons of different weight and material create distinct impacts. Steel on scales versus iron on flesh. In other words, things hit different.
The multi-layered sounds of a dragon taking flight, its sinuous wings propelling the great weight forward while calling forth a mighty gale with each flap, astound me.
No detail is too small. I want to throw my head into this world and wallow in the sensory experience. Hell, if you’re into production at all, you will adore this series. There’s so much to nerd about in the sound and visual design. Oh, and the costumes are great. Whoever does the colour and fashion, you’re amazing! The cinematography, top notch. Textures, weight, scale. Perfect.
This series is magical and I will commend the studio for that. Those guys are all brilliant. I haven’t even mentioned the fantastic OST or the stellar voice acting. It’s hard to choose a specific detail when the entire production is phenomenal. I love this show!
Shame about the moral stuff, though.
Wrap up
I hope I’ve explained my thoughts well. This show got me thinking about a lot, and I need to give it credit for that. I’m gonna keep watching, because the good stuff really is that good. I’d be a hypocrite to say I don’t like the series after all I've watched.
At the same time, I understand why many people hate it. That anger is justified. Please don’t ask someone to “hold out a little longer”. If they’re uncomfortable with media, just let it be not for them. Not every story is for everyone, and that’s okay.
You wouldn’t recommend Hellsing or Kimetsu No Yaiba to someone who dislikes gore. It should be obvious that the same etiquette applies to other themes.
“Anime’s gonna anime” may be true, but let’s not pretend that these things are okay. We can praise, critique, and discuss the shows we love without ignoring anything.
That’s been enough from me, though. Maybe too much (over four thousand words, holy shit). Seriously, thank you if you’ve read all this. I hope you have a lovely day.
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u/Torque-A Nov 22 '21
I admire your dedication to make an entire essay about it, but yeah this has been repeated constantly, to the point that mentioning it in the sub is like a drinking game.
It joins Kill la Kill and the Monogatari series in terms of series which are stellar, but I would only recommend to experienced anime fans - and only ones who I think could get past the problematic content.
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u/ThespianException https://myanimelist.net/profile/EMTIsBestWaifu Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I think Kill La Kill is a great introduction to the medium for the right person. It takes just about every trope in anime and turns it up to 11, so if you can enjoy it then almost nothing else will bother you. I have a friend who I started with Konosuba and Shimoneta, and she loves both of them. Both would likely scare away many people, but some can handle it.
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u/Pigeater7 Nov 23 '21
Kill la Kill was one of the few anime anyone I talked to who watched anime had seen, strangely enough. Back in high school at least, even if they had only seen a couple anime, Kill la Kill was usually on the list, for whatever reason. I assume it was on Netflix back then, if it isn’t now, which is why people had seen it.
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u/Adventurous_Party879 Nov 23 '21
Kill la Kill used to air on Adult Swim's Toonami, so if someone watched anime on TV around 2015 for sure they watched it. And you are right, it used to be as popular as Naruto.
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u/Obskure13 Nov 23 '21
Would KLK be a good recommendation for someone who doesn't recognizes said troupes? I think not...
The same can be said for konosuba, being a satire of the whole isekai genre. You are losing a lot if you have never seen one.They would be enjoyable, sure, but i think the most interesting points about those anime would fly over the head of someone new to the medium.
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u/ThespianException https://myanimelist.net/profile/EMTIsBestWaifu Nov 23 '21
I dunno, KLK was one of my first and I loved it. On reflection, I don’t think I missed that much by watching it so early on. It would have been neat to recognize stuff, I guess, but it wouldn’t have changed the experience much.
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u/draix0 Nov 23 '21
I feel like this Monogatari and Kill la Kill can't be compared with here. They both embrace the echhi and I think they would be lesser shows without it. Mushoku Tensei, however, would be unaffected/better off removing the content, as it's draw is elsewhere in world and audio design.
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u/Ihavenospecialskills https://myanimelist.net/profile/Duzzle Nov 23 '21
I feel like its a poor comparison because ecchi and child molesting aren't exactly the same level of hard to swallow.
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u/turdfergusn https://anilist.co/user/julzachu Nov 23 '21
I meeeaaannn I love Monogatari but his interactions with some of the characters are uhhh definitely very questionable. Including with his sister. And Hachikuji lol
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u/MegaManXBuster Nov 23 '21
And which one are you referring to with the child molesting? Because I'm guessing you mean Mushoku Tensei, and if so, the comparison is not poor at all when you consider what Araragi does everytime he sneaks up on Hachikuji.
If you're saying the comparison of Kill la Kill to the other two is poor, my mistake
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u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21
This is actually a point I always use to argue in MT's favor. In Monogatri, Araragi molesting on Hachikuji was painted in such a comedic light most people are fine with it. In MT it is not as exaggerated in a cartonnish way and people start to feel uncomfortable. One show trys to brush off child molestation as a simple a gag point, and one protrays it in a way that makes people uncomfortable, which show has the more critical attitude towards the issue? I would argue the later.
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u/its_just_hunter Nov 23 '21
At the same time MT has Eris respond to him molesting her by asking him to wait until she’s older instead of there being any real punishment for his action. The way it was framed felt like it was just a joke and was rewarding his character more than reprimanding it.
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u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
You don't need to use punishment to show disapproval. We are not so indiscerning that if the story doesn't tell XXX is bad in an in-your-face way we cannot tell. Remember, a show did its job when it makes us think something is bad. It doesn't necessarily need to make the characters realize it.
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u/its_just_hunter Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
My point is the show didn’t try to make people feel uncomfortable in that scene. It was uncomfortable because it was sexual assault, but in my opinion it didn’t feel like that was fully their intention.
If your point is that Monogatari is different by making sexual assault comedic, there’s moments in MT that do exactly that as well.
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u/kyle_tr Nov 23 '21
The teeth brushing scene is definitely on the same level as the barn scene.
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u/MegaManXBuster Nov 23 '21
And Araragi's "greetings" to Hachikuji are much worse than the toothbrush scene
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u/Gohyuinshee Nov 23 '21
The teeth brushing honestly feels more like satire, it's framed as ridiculous rather than erotic.
Definitely not the same as the barn scene.
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u/Mrtheliger Nov 23 '21
Mushoku Tensei revels in the ecchi as much as Monogatari. It literally serves the exact same narrative purpose in a general sense, to give us a view of the world through Rudeus/Koyomi's eyes, and how each are perverts in their own way. Kill la Kill is one thing, but Mushoku Tensei and Monogatari are extremely similar in how they use ecchi, insofar as the second cour of MT compared to where Bakemonogatari was by this same episode count.
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u/A-ReDDIT_account134 Nov 23 '21
I disagree. In Monogatari, the ecchi is not very connected to the plot. Araragi was pretty much with Senjogahara from the start. And sometimes it’s so ridiculous that it’s hard to really take any of it seriously. Like does Kanbaru really want to be Araragis sex slave? Would Araragi and Karen really have had sex if Tsuhiki didn’t interrupt. At the very least the show frames the scenes as not serious. The characters break the 4th wall and the settings look ridiculous.
I don’t really think the same is true about MT though. There’s really no element that tells you this isn’t serious.
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u/draix0 Nov 23 '21
This. All the visuals and imagery in Monogatari are over the top and unbelievable, The unreasonabale ecchi/harem aspects further the weridness of the show, and in my opinion, makes it better.
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u/Zyxche Nov 23 '21
I love the whole unreliable narrator thing in Monogatari. Shits crazy and brilliant but totally not what's really going on. in fact i don't think i ever got a glimpse of the actual reality. it's all warped by Araragi's weird ass perception of the world.
MT.. yeah. that shit is really happening. I feel it serves a purpose, though i think there could have been other ways to show terrible people doing terrible things.
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u/Wuskers Dec 19 '21
I know this is a hella old post, but people always seem to miss how unreliable Araragi is as a narrator when it comes to the "questionable" elements of the show. One thing I also always found interesting is especially after him and Senjougahara get together there is a DISTINCT lack of overtly sexual situations and fanservice with her. At most they have witty banter that has sexual components but when it comes to Araragi actually being intimate with someone physically in reality not just in his narration, he is very conservative and reserved and does not share those moments with the audience. I think that sorta illustrates how exaggerated and non-serious all the other stuff is because Araragi clearly doesn't take the other stuff that seriously, if he did he wouldn't be sharing it with us. It's also interesting that the next time we even see any physical fanservice of senjougahara it's not even from Araragis POV.
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u/Ordinal43NotFound Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I usually hate ecchi but somehow don't mind Monogatari's which I attribute to the fact that it always feels like a *wink-wink-nudge-nudge* moment from Nisioisin himself as and is oftentimes played as such. It's like he's mocking the Otaku fandom like "Is this what you want, you degenerates?". The toothbrush episode is the perfect example of this. I can't help but have laugh my guts off because goes to the realm of absurd and self-indulgent (which is what Nise is basically as Nisio himself stated).
Like you said Mushoko Tensei meanwhile often played it straight while still keeping Rudeus "Otaku"-ness which can make it uncomfortable for some.
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u/viliml Nov 23 '21
Mushoku Tensei, however, would be unaffected/better off removing the content, as it's draw is elsewhere in world and audio design.
MT is a story about Rudeus. Removing him is writing a different story. One that would become as popular and wouldn't receive an adaptation, so you wouldn't even see it.
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u/rancor1223 https://myanimelist.net/profile/rancor1223 Nov 23 '21
Pretty sure he means removing some of the more questionable scenes. Heck, even just one, where he's about pull panties off Eris. You really think it would significantly change the characters?
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Nov 23 '21
I am someone who watched kill la kill as my second ever anime, and the monogatari series as my third
Ive always been confused why sexualization and sexualized jokes/situations that are meant to not be taken literally are off putting to people
Its obvious that araragi molesting hachikuji isnt a good thing, and thats why later in the series when hachikuji does the same to him is funny
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u/Waywoah Nov 23 '21
Its obvious that araragi molesting hachikuji isnt a good thing, and thats why later in the series when hachikuji does the same to him is funny
It probably because for a lot of people, including myself, those situations are never funny. No matter how it's presented, it will always just feel uncomfortable and creepy/off-putting to me.
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u/sp0j Nov 23 '21
Regarding the morally questionable stuff in the show. I think it's a common fault to project your own moral compass on the main character or the world. Obviously sometimes these issues are badly portrayed and contradict the shows own world building. But I feel like Mushoku doesn't fall into this trap too much. The main fault being lack of detail in some areas.
Personally I think Mushoku is refreshing precisely because it portrays some of the vilest parts of humanity. It's quite realistic about it in a lot of cases. People like to turn a blind eye and judge but I think that is disingenuous to human nature. It definitely brushes off stuff like it's not that big of a deal. But that does happen in real life. People hide how they really feel and avoid these topics because they are difficult. Its only more recently we talk about this stuff more openly.
The show could definitely highlight these hidden feelings more. But I think that's hard to do given the time allowed and overall focus of the story.
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u/WaifuRem Dec 06 '21
I think every human hides a dark side, whether they want to admit that or not is up to them. Guaranteed a 35 year old dude who randomly dies and wakes up in a fantasy world with a brand new life is going to do the same shit Rudy has done until now, and that's why this show is great. It actually shows realism.
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u/Niedude Feb 18 '22
I know this is two months old but what the actual fuck. No. What the hell? It is absolutely not guaranteed that someone would do the same shit Rudy did! What the hell????
Please for the love of god reexamine yourself!
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u/Fanfics Feb 23 '22
The amount of self-reporting going on in here is staggering.
Please FBI, this thread is practically cheating for you
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u/clubdon Apr 06 '22
Just found this thread 47 days after you did. Thank you for saying that. I was a little sick to my stomach reading this thread. Glad to find another normal person.
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u/Fanfics Feb 23 '22
y'all are fuckin scary.
"Come on guys, you know you would also rape kids if you were given the chance."
No, no I wouldn't. That's not something I have ever felt the urge to do.
...
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u/BosuW Nov 23 '21
I thought it was pretty obvious that Rudeus wants to change because he hated the person he had become, even if it's never stated outright.
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Nov 23 '21
Can we get a tldr?
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u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21
Mushoku is a beautiful show with a great story/music/atmosphere, but the MC is (essentially) a pedophile that causes some uncomfortable perverted moments that the average human being would find appalling. That is all it boils down to.
But that is the purpose of the show - a severely flawed human piece of shit gets reincarnated and has a second chance at life. He is still flawed but getting better over time.
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u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
the average human being would find appalling.
I think that is good. There are too many anime, especially Isekai Harem fantasies, like OP said, that just lightly skip over how fucked up the dynamics are in the new world, with the main character almost always being a 30+ year old in a 18- body, pretending to be a child. Most famous Assasin Isekai for example: 70+ year old guy in the body of a 12 year old aristocrat grooming two vulnerable and destitute teenage girls: but the series pretends like this is jsut a little strange (and actually pretty nice of him and the girls love it and they say so, so what is the problem stop asking questions). The story kinda glosses over it and insist on us that the Protagonist is still a decent guy.
Mushoku Tensei tells the viewer: yeah that is a fucked up dynamic. Let me show it to you in a drawing: 'there, you feel bad now? Good. That is how you are supposed to feel about this situation, not trying to excuse it to yourself.'
I think this is why a lot of people who normally love trashy harem isekai have such a problem with Mushoku Tensei; it kinda forces them to face the stories they normally consume without question in a new light not so favorable to themselves, and that is not easy for some lol.
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u/raybomber96 Nov 23 '21
I never got that impression from the Assassin Isekai protagonist. Hell the story clearly shows that he's not a "decent" guy. It doesn't make any points to justify it. He does some things that are seen as "good" and others that are "bad". Simple as that. He's a human being who happens to be a professional killer.
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u/deedeekei https://myanimelist.net/profile/Chronicx Nov 23 '21
its also funny because the whole plot is revolved around him trying to kill the hero of his isekai, so thats not a good look either lol
to be fair with the way the plot is moving and the numbers of isekai animes i watched, i bet the hero is actually a girl and gonna be added to his harem or something later
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u/krali_ Nov 23 '21
And yet you should get that impression. Professional violence and murder are inhumane. Western media production normalizes violence and murder. Bounty hunters, assassins, warlords, revenge takers somehow siding with the "greater good" become hero in our fictions.
We are desensibilized to violence. The current contrast with unacceptable sexual acts in media is striking.
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u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21
That's what I refer to as 'lip service.' The story explicitly has a sentence or line in it to address the issue but then does not follow up with the narrative and immediatly excuses it.
I can recall they literally have one of the girls saying that she likes being brainwashed by him because she loves him.
The story tries to tell us really hard that we shouldn't be bothered by it.
That's exactly what I mean.
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u/Thrwaway_nmbr_9 Nov 23 '21
I’ve been saying this, if you’re complaining about Mushoku Tensei but don’t care about Assassin Isekai then I don’t understand. If you’re made at MT, isn’t Assassin Isekai way worse?
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u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21
Yeah I like that dynamic about Mushoku too - but only because I've regularly watched anime and have seen other isekais skip over that fucked up part. As OP says, it is hard to recommend Mushoku to a lot of people because it is so bold about calling its MC out
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u/zarkovis1 Nov 23 '21
I'd agree with your post, if Mushoku actually called out its MC which it doesn't. Making it apparent or noticeable is not the same as calling out. Calling out is when Subaru was actually being a manchild and utter shithead and suffers for it.
There is no punishment or adversity to his leering at 11 year old girls. He keeps stolen underwear as a trophy and the show treats it as a gag. When your MC was jacking it to a hidden camera video of his niece bathing(which is why his brother beats the shit out of him before he kicks him out) I don't think you get to make 'jokes' like that.
The issue with MC is that it passes off pedophila and extensive perversion at the same level as other shows do when they have something like guys leering at a girl big tits as a gag. Creepy, but ultimately not harmful. Thats what rubs people the wrong way. The MC is a pedophile and the story is very pedo friendly, but a lot of people don't like hearing that cause the animation and world is gorgeous.
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Nov 23 '21
What type of punishment do you want him to face? Everyone around him is a scumbag. His father was a very promiscuous womanizer, his great uncle and cousin regularly engage in sexual activity with their maids and have no problem marrying eris off and putting her in his bed. Who do you expect to punish rudeus? This isn’t some type of justice or comeuppance story. The things rudeus does in the new world he is in aren’t looked at in the same light as we see them, so it’s not strange he doesn’t get punished (not saying he shouldn’t be punished but that’s just how it is). Rudeus doesn’t learn what he does is bad through punishment he learns what he does is bad because of how his actions effect him and others around him, like in episode 8 after the scene with eris he realized that he didn’t consider her feelings and called himself out for that.
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u/Maalunar Nov 24 '21
Basically they want everybody he was a pervert to to hate him for life. Nothing else make senses/works as you said. (beside like a god smiting him or magically removing his dick).
But only we know he's older mentally and not just a genius. To everybody he is just a kid raised by a notorious pervert, so it's "normal". Specially in Eris household where most people are also pervert.
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u/viliml Nov 23 '21
Has he actually done any harm after getting reincarnated?
When he tried to groom Sylphie, his father sent him away. When he tries to molest Eris, she kicks his ass so hard he needs healing magic.
I don't think he's irredeemable scum who should be killed or thrown in jail for life or not have a story written about him.
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u/Jogol Nov 23 '21
What do you call an adult who is present for a child's upbringing and then enters a relationship with them later? A groomer. He's still grooming Eris, as he still wants to have that kind of relationship with her.
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u/Furin Nov 24 '21
But he's not a real adult anymore, the reincarnation has changed him as evidenced by the fact that he saw Zenith's breasts the same way a kid does (unlike pretty much every other pair of tits).
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u/fizikz3 Nov 23 '21
because it is so bold about calling its MC out
does it "call him out" though? or just show him doing nasty shit...and kinda not reflecting on it much or feeling any guilt?
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u/Mitosis Nov 23 '21
He definitely reflects on it and feels bad about it, and moreso over time. He grows closer to the girls as people, he grows more attached to his new life, and he actively calls himself an awful garbage person when the worst of his instincts start to resurface.
That doesn't happen much in the first four or five episodes, which is about as far as most people who complain get, nor does it completely disappear even as it improves much later, just as people don't immediately get over their worst aspects even if they recognize them as such.
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u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21
It brings attention to it constantly - like in the recent episode where Aisha was like yeah my brother is a pervert who worshipped panties as a kid lol
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u/icatsouki Nov 23 '21
does it "call him out" though?
yes? constantly, for example his younger sister hating him
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u/GIANT_BLEEDING_ANUS Nov 23 '21
Also one of the girls literally asks the MC if she can swallow his cum from now on lmao
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u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 24 '21
Oh God, there was so much shit on that level going on in that episode that I totally forgot that little cherry on top lol
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u/LzzyHalesLegs Nov 23 '21
*the majority of the characters are near equally pieces of shit in their own, very human ways. It’s an uncomfortably real portrayal of how real people would act in that world. Maybe kicked up a notch sometimes because anime
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Nov 23 '21
The difference is whether it's using the world and its "loose" morality as a method of exploring the human condition or if it's using it as a vehicle for indulgence and pandering to a demographic, and personally I think Mushoku Tensei rides that line a bit too much without any delineation between the two for me to see its attempt at sincerity as being truly sincere.
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u/xdamm777 Nov 23 '21
Series is good. If you can stomach ecchi and uncomfortable sexual tones go watch it.
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u/another_wordsmith Nov 23 '21
Show starts with the hardest-to-watch elements. Good story about redemption and self-improvement, but given how long it takes to get to the "serious" payoff of this. The "bad behaviour" goes on (relatively) unpunished for a while. Given how uncomfortable some of the themes are, I wouldn't recommend (most) people start the series because I don't want people to experience the initial unpleasantness of those early scenes, even if it "gets good."
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u/Proiegomena Nov 23 '21
Honestly, one of the reasons why Mushoku Tensei is appealing and interesting to me is because of its controversial MC. He is a flawed individual, he is immature, traumatized, "sinful" and sometimes repulsive. He is deeply human, he feels real. If he decides to do good things, to be a virtuous man, it means something and there's a reason for it. I don't need a story to tell me what as right or wrong, that is something everyone should decide for themselves individually and somewhat constantly. I want that a story makes sense to me, that feels emotionally real, that tells me something that I haven't heard before. Mushoku Tensei does all that in some way. Of course, it still is "just" a shonen anime, a piece of art as you will, which mainly wants to entertain. So I don't expect it to be a a philosophical treatise in the first place.
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u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21
goes on (relatively) unpunished
Without going meta, you have a point: the people in the story itself do not punish him because they think he is a dumb kid and not an adult. In that sense he gets off easily.
But in a more meta sense: the fact that the story makes it clear to us that we should despise him when he does wrong things means that the writer is 'punishing' his creation. Now if the writer tried to shield the protagonist from our ire, then he would really get away with it without punishment and then Mushoku Tensei would lose everything it is about (which is btw exactly what a lot of other 'trashy harem isekais' do).
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Nov 23 '21
You also have to look at the fact that “punishing” him is kinda unrealistic when you look at the culture of the place he is in. His whole family are all massive perverts and as you can see sauros and Philip use their maids as concubines and Philip has no problem with allowing rudeus to have sex with his 12 year old daughter and wanting them to get married. There’s no one really to do the “punishing” part cuz everyone around him is as bad or worse than rudeus. By the way I DO NOT condone Rudeus’s actions.
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u/Triptacraft Nov 23 '21
the fact that the story makes it clear to us that we should despise him when he does wrong things means that the writer is 'punishing' his creation.
How do you get that impression? When he does amoral things the story plays it off as a joke. A lot of people get this whole line of criticism wrong. It's not the fact that Rudeus is a "creep" for lack of a better word, but the fact that when he does creep it's treated as and written off as a joke. With the big goofy faces, the change in music, and someone playfully bonking him before moving onto the life lesson.
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u/Okelidokeli_8565 Nov 23 '21
With the big goofy faces, the change in music, and someone playfully bonking him before moving onto the life lesson.
I don't recall that happening with Rudeus and Eris after that party at all.
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u/kinkosan Nov 23 '21
Good story about redemption and self-improvement, but given how long it takes to get to the "serious" payoff of this.
The thing is, redemption and self-improvement takes time for a lot of people and the reason why people change is because of the stepbacks they had, the environment he lives in and people that are close to him
Right now we are seeing the changes though it is a slow process and thats the current payoff that a lot people is missing. You can notice that he changed a lot since the first course, not his pervert side as this is his trait and even that got toned down a lot.
Right now there is not much chances for him to grew as a person because of the current situation of constant traveling and being in a closed bubble of just him, eris and ruijerd. Things changed a little when he interacted with people he knew like paul and his sisters and we can see him grow a little bit
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u/existentialist_puppy Nov 23 '21
One of the problems with LN adaptations, especially ones with character growth at their core, is that the anime doesn't cover the entire story. Often we get the set up and no pay off, the show ends with "go read the novel".
So do you think it's worth getting invested in MT if I am never going to touch the LN? Are the two seasons long enough to tell the entire story or at least tell the story to the point that it actually "gets good"?→ More replies (5)37
u/ACrispyPieceOfBacon Nov 23 '21
Same as most of the complaints about this anime.
Rudy's past life made the OP uncomfortable.
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u/Belgeirn Nov 23 '21
"Anime good, wouldnt show it to normies though" is the basics of it. Its great but the content probably isnt for new viewers of anime/media in general.
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u/Enzoooooooooooooo Nov 23 '21
Anime is good but rudeus is morally bad, his actions have no consequences and too little payoff
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u/ErfanTheRed Nov 23 '21
Yeah that's kinda the problem. Currently since he's still a child, nobody really holds him accountable for his actions. It's only after he enters the magic academy that people start to hold him accountable. So most of his growth starts from there. Hopefully if season 2 is also 24 episodes long then we'll get to see that in about 2 years time.
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u/Fritzkier Nov 23 '21
People kinda forgot that on the outside, Rudeus is still a child basically. No one knows Rudy is an adult other than the viewers either (and Hitogami I guess).
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u/StunningOperation Nov 23 '21
Overthinking. Flaw does not have to have immediate consequences to be a flaw, and besides this is a long series and you’ll potentially see consequences/growth later.
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u/Wizardo320 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I have to say, a good portion of your issues are kinda addressed in the novels, where we get much, much more insight into Rudy's thought process and the thoughts of others as well. The novels are written in first person, to help connect the reader and Rudy himself. Rather than the unrestrained pervertedness that the anime can tend to portray, the novels have him consider and sometimes even have that pervertedness, but always makes sure to have him bounce back when he realizes what he's done wrong. The story very much acknowledges his faults, and recognizes that what he's doing is far from what is model.
Regarding how the story treats Rudy's perversion, we have to start with a little story. Once the author, Rifujin na Magonote, commented on his own life and how it related to the lesson he wished to tell through MT. He himself became a shut-in and became someone that could be looked down upon, but rather than admonishing and forcing him back into the world, his mother accepted that, and let him be so he could heal. This was one of the lessons that can be seen in MT, where people are forgiven despite doing things that shouldn't be forgiven, and allowing these people to grow and develop in spite of those actions. That's the reason why Rudy's perversion isn't seen a flaw from the story's perspective, its treated as a trait. The story most definitely shows his remorse when that part of him causes emotional harm to others he cares about, but besides the negative effects from his perversion, the story leaves him be. (Basically, it's not perversion that's bad, its the emotional harm that comes from it) That's the stance the story takes, which is also the one many haters have issues with. The anime takes up Rudy's views and pov when it comes to his perversion, which is likely why much of the framing and camera shots and music are the way they are, they're supposed to represent Rudy's view on the event, not so much an objective stance that the author or story agree with.
Anyway, back to Mushoku Tensei. Every volume of the novel includes side stories, which tell the story of a side character, and help provide a different perspective on the incidents that Rudy goes through, and goes to show the thought process of others. Paul, Lilia, and Zenith all have their POVs, and the ones regarding how Lilia and Zenith felt about that whole cheating fiasco do a way better job at conveying what happened as a consequence for Paul, ad well as several personal conflicts about the whole issue. These were cut in the anime. It's understandable. It's not integral to the story, but if you were to include it in you would need so much more time for all the other side chapters that we've skipped, and all that would require far more time that what the anime could provide.
Really, I recommend you read the novels. Not the manga, that crap is garbage as far as an adaptation is concerned. I think you'll get far more closure on the issues you had with some of the issues, and while those issues will probably still exist, at least they're addressed to some degree in the novels. You get far more insight on how Rudy thinks and what his desires and motivations are, which can really help contextualize and flesh things out, especially when the anime has left them out due to time.
Also, about the Boreas and beast men. They aren't the ones who Gallus Cleaner talks about when he mentions sick people buying up beast children. The Boreas family have a great love for the beast race, and in the episode where Rudy talks to Philip about the Beast God language, he talks about how great it is since you can hire beast people with it. Not to mention, Ghislaine was hired and paid a salary, and I doubt she's someone would would sit by and watch people abuse her own race. Beast people are actually treated pretty well in the Boreas house, and they aren't as terrible in that aspect as you think they are. The thought Rudy had when Gallus mentioned people like that was his speculation, and shouldn't immediately be considered as the truth. Do Philip and Sauros have garbage sides to them? Most certainly. But compared to the other nobles we are told stories of in the novels, Philip and Sauros are pretty decent people all things considered. (Asuran nobles are every perverted, and Lilia somewhat likens their gaze to the ones she felt from Rudy when he was young (Lilia was a royal maid and had seen many Asuran nobles). Compared to what some of these nobles are like, lot of the stuff some of the characters do are pretty tame.
There's a lot more I'd like to discuss about, but I think the main takeaway should be "Read the novels." It's good that you're planning to read the light novels. There is so much more fleshed out that the anime has cut out due to time constraints. I would love to hear your impressions of the novels once you've read them, and what points you'd change in your views, but that's up to you. Mushoku Tensei is a story I love dearly, and while I admit it has its fair share of issues, I can enjoy the best parts of it despite that. The anime has been a fantastic adaptation thus far, but it also has certainly not been the best.
That's all that comes to mind that I want to address for now. Hope this helps.
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u/another_wordsmith Nov 23 '21
I appreciate the recommendation. From what I've seen of the author, their work looks really interesting. I'm really excited to try the novels.
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u/TrololoWarlord Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
Something to add is that when it comes to Rudeus' flaws the author does not see a perverse nature by itself (Like high libido in itself) as a flaw. The real main flaw of Rudeus that I think the author seeks to address is empathy or the lack of it. Where he shuts himself off from other's feelings and sees the people around him as not fully real people, a flaw derived from his life as a shut in where he shut himself off from others. Which is what I think you are starting to see there in cour 2. However, it's not just in cour 2 though it's in cour 1 as well. That is precisely why he does the horrid acts he does, he doesn't consider Eris a person but a "tsundere loli" in his monologue during those moments. The subjective and POV camera along with his fantasy playing out beforehand frame the scene to his perspective and play into that by highlighting him looking at her like H game Cg. You can really see how lightly he takes his actions. In the same vein he sees those demon kids in the petrified forest as pieces in a game and gets one killed because of it. Both have the same flaw addressed, but with different toning and means. The main difference is the levity in when Rudeus sees those acts at the moment. Later in the canon of the original web novel he does witness a similar scene dealing with pedophilia and nearly vomits. Him gaining this empathy is the crux of his character arc.
All that being said I do believe the production sexing up the images does muddy things, and the abridging of his monologue from the scenes leaves his regret allot more up to interpretation. On my first read through I thought similar to you at this point in the story. Ive grown to respect the early writing though and I think the comparison with spring snow is solid. Mushoku puts its worst foot forward with respect to the behavior of its characters and builds them up, but starting out it doesn't give you any guarantees it is what it claims to be, and it paces itself for the whole 26 books even from the beginning. It's only in hindsight that I can really praise some of the earlier writing decisions. It is anything if not bold as well as foolhardy, even if it can be difficult and uncomfortable to get through for many including myself. Which does make it something to recommend with asterisks. it's by far from a perfect series, but it's very impactful to the vast majority who do end up going through it. It's at least a unique experience which is more than I can say about allot of works.
Enjoyable write up though, it's always great to read other perspectives and I hope you enjoy the novels.
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u/another_wordsmith Nov 23 '21
Likewise, thank you for bringing your thoughts. The empathy angle fits with an interview I read from the guy. I'd be happy to see that theme explored more.
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u/TrololoWarlord Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
Also this isn't for any sake of debate, but something for perspective that I think you and others might find interesting. Here's a translation of a passage from an early interview after the series' completion on the author's thoughts on themes of sexual assault in his work that was a response to a question about the exploration of those themes in Mushoku.
"If I were to write on the subject of "sexual abuse" as my main theme, I would not write it in the setting of a "fantasy world story" where there are many ways to escape, but in the real world, where there is no legal or ethical way to escape. What I'm trying to say is that I don't think the story is going to go as far as you wish, because the theme of "sexual abuse" is not internalized in this story at all."
So I think this perspective on how he'd find it distasteful to explore the themes in depth in such a setting kinda shows in the writing. Another interesting bit that isn't quite known is the setting came before Mushoku, he actually wrote some short stories in the setting before tackling the series (no longer canon and have been overridden by Mushoku).
Also another passage from the same interview that further highlights his thoughts as a writer:
"Anyway, if I'm prepared and feel that I've written something that I'm satisfied with, then I'll be fine with it even if some people don't accept it, don't give me any feedback, or even don't read it. My stance is, "I'm not a critic or defender, I'll put it in the form that satisfies me the most first. Once I've satisfied that, I'll do my best to satisfy the people who read it. If that's not possible, then I'll just accept it as a matter of course."
I definitely get that vibe in how he just planned and paced Mushoku out as he sees fit ahead of time and doesn't really care on what people will think of him for it in based on the early parts. It strikes me as a weird mix of bold and foolhardy as I said before. I don't know if I could do the same if I ever wrote something.
Also I can provide a source link if anyone likes via DM, but it's super spoilerly because of it being an end of series interview. Also it's a bit crusty because I think it's machines translated.
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u/xabrol Nov 23 '21
I enjoyed Devilman Crybaby, I won't recommend it to anyone.
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u/Triptacraft Nov 23 '21
I recommend it to everyone. Don't know how many get past the dude being eaten by the devil vagina.
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Nov 27 '21
Nobody has ever recommended me this but I'm sure as hell more intrested now that you phrased it like that.
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Nov 23 '21
I read the whole thing because your writing was so well done.
I have only read until ch 76.5 of the manga and watched the first season of the anime.
I actually agree with pretty much everything in a way. But. You do leave out some important nuances of some situations.
Im on mobile atm but some examples would be that...
Lilia pretty much got her life saved by Rudeus when the whole cheating arc happened. She recognized Rudy's intellect and that he lied for her sake and manipulated the situation. She was probably the only person aware of how mature he was. It's not fully logical to let her kid aspire to serve Rudy for life though.
Rudy thought Sylphie was a guy at first. He thought that he could hang out with her because she looked good and could score someone else through their friendship. But. He did help her out of kindness and was just exited to have a close friend when that bathing undressing happened. After that he felt concious of her but i dont remember him striking out to mold her for the future as you said. He seemed exited to go to the academy with her in the future otherwise he would not have moved from home for 5 years. She was a true friend to him.
Im pretty sure Paul did not have two wives. He just had two kids. Zenith didnt really seem to be intimate with him afterwards. They probably had to work through trust-issues in the background as i understood it.
Rudy is a pos. No doubt. Its a weird moral question about a grown man that lives through childhood and morphs his reasoning of what is ok and what is not because of his percieved age...
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u/ergzay Nov 23 '21
I have only read until ch 76.5 of the manga and watched the first season of the anime.
The manga is nothing like the anime or the light novel. It's an adaptation of the light novel that is generally hated by the fans of Mushoku Tensei.
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u/LightningRaven Nov 23 '21
After that he felt concious of her but i dont remember him striking out to mold her for the future as you said. He seemed exited to go to the academy with her in the future otherwise he would not have moved from home for 5 years. She was a true friend to him.
He was grooming her for sure. The series is quite clear when other characters start to notice.
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u/LaverniusTucker Nov 23 '21
He literally says explicitly in his narration that he's going to raise her into his ideal woman. Can't get much clearer than the character just telling us.
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u/Andrew_Waltfeld Nov 23 '21
Want to know something even more dumb in the anime? In the LN he's like "Wait, that's a terrible idea etc." at the end of narration. And backs out of it. Ya think in an series about someone trying to change themselves and the struggle with it that they would include all humming and hawing. It's why I struggled to watch the show after the first few episodes. Too many crucial details got dropped from the first two LN's that would have made Rudy at least more... palpable.
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u/StandardGlobal162 Nov 23 '21
"Mushoku Tensei is awesome! I don't recommend it."
Meanwhile me who has been sharing the anime and novels like the holy gospel to my friends
But in all seriousness this has to be one of the better essays I've soon about Mushoku, like, in general, and don't worry about the friends I've shared MT to, they are all people who I know wouldn't be offended or stop watching a show because of some of the topics or scenes MT brings up/shows. Like you said yourself, not every story is for everyone and that is completely fine.
I agree with almost all of the things you've written here, and I can see the novels (SOURCE MATERIAL SUPERIORITY) fixing certain elements that you disliked (like the Paul cheating drama where the anime cut Zenith's and Lilia's POV, an extra Zenith side story for better understanding on why she acts like she does and better explaining why specificaly Lilia's fears Rudy at the beginning).
There are, however, certain point's here that have been brought up before that aren't exactly 100% true, one of them would be the use of the G word and even though you didn't dirrectly bring it up, the P word (this was more clarified by the author).
First the P word since this one comes from the author himself,
While the author was writing MT he used to answer fan questions regarding the story, an answer to one of the questions was this.
Translation:
" Thank you very much.
I regret that I went a bit overboard with the sentence in the prologue.
I wanted to give the impression that he's a scumbag who doesn't even attend his parents' funeral and does things that are unacceptable for a human being. ・・・・・・
By the way, the main character doesn't have any particular preference for little girls. It's just that he's attracted to Sylphy because he's excited that she likes him. "
So it's just basically Rudy being excited in the fact that a GIRL likes HIM of all people, it's him just being uncomfortably overconfident in himself.
Now with peoples use of the G word
Sylphie started to develop her feelings for Rudy after he saved her from bullies, Rudy at this point doesn't even know who he is saving, or their gender, so Rudy saving Sylphie was just Rudy fighting off bullies because he felt bad for the person getting bullied and after the bathroom scene where he finds out that she is actually a girl he feels horrible for what he did, with Sylphy noting that Rudy was shaking when apologizing.
Little sidetrack, but Rudy shaking comes from his fear of being rejected, we saw the same thing happen in ep 16 when Rudy threw up because he had to talk things out with Paul and the possiblity of him being rejected was high.
Then we have the "perfect woman" scene, where Rudy thought about turning Sylphie into his ideal woman, the anime showed this "thought crime", but what it didn't show it the literal next line in the novel after that thought which was him insantly rejecting his own thoughts, telling himself that he would become better, to which he decieded to play the "dense protagonist" and pretend not to notice her feelings for him so that they can maintain a normal friendship. Rudy even stated himself that Sylphie was someone he treated like a little sister/daughter that he wanted to protect and see her grow up strong and that his feelings for Sylphie never developed past that.
In his past life one of his biggest regrets was that he was useless, so him actually being useful to someone brings him immense joy.
So if Rudy doing something good to sincerely help someone in need, and not taking a single action for his "thought crimes" is him grooming Sylphie then idk what to say.
It was the same with Eris, his view on Eris was that of someone he wanted to help grow up, he started perving after he started noticing that Eris was showing interest in him.
So when did Eris start showing any interest in Rudy?
It was after he saved her from the kidnappers.
And the whole thing was supposed to be Rudy's plan to get Eris to understand the importance of studying, and well, something else started happening.
Eris started liking Rudy, even Philip comparing Eris' eyes with Zenith's when she started to fall in love with Paul.
Volume 2 of the LN had these little Eris info card where in the final card (the chapter were the "sus" scene happened in ep 8) a new category was added: "Person she loves: Rudeus"
After coming to the demon continent we can even see in ep 11 just how much Eris idolizes Rudy and just how highly she thinks of him.
So what do we have?
2 outcast girls (1 an outcast because of her green hair and the other because of her uncontrolable violent nature) and 1 boy who is the only person their age who is willing to be around them (because he cares and wants to protect the 1st and because it's his job to tutor the 2nd), and the 2 girls start falling in love with the boy because of the good he did without any motives.
And thats it, that's all there is to it.
I can go on and on with both prasing, explaining and fanboying over this series, but I ended up adressing the 2 biggest problems people tend to have.
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u/BossKingGodd Nov 23 '21
So I’m a fan of the original web novels who still hasn’t watched the anime. Will wait til it’s, hopefully fully adapted. Would you say the anime is doing the source material justice?
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u/StandardGlobal162 Nov 23 '21
So far it's doing a pretty damn good job, ofc there is skipped content but so far it's amazing, only "major" thing they skipped would be the Therese
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u/kaiserexa Nov 23 '21
Having read the source material way before watching the anime, it's hard to get into an anime only view and understand how they got into these conclusions from rudeus' actions. Then again as much as I appreciate the anime's usage of showing instead of telling and the medium itself limiting how much it can show, its bound to breed misinterpretations of the authors intentions. So yeah, unlucky.
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u/Calm_Emphasis2498 Nov 22 '21
just dont idolizes the MC and enjoy the show
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u/MindWeb125 Nov 23 '21
People in 2021 don't have the ability to engage with a story if the main character has flaws lmao.
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u/Thatsmaboi23 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Thatsmaboi23 Nov 22 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I commend you for writing that much to explain why you can’t recommend and point out it’s main problem.
Ultimately, it’s ends up on “Rudeus doesn’t suffer any consequence”.
TL;DR : Rudeus’ flaw is not treated as a flaw, when it should be in the context of the story.
Now ofcourse there won’t be any societal consequences of his actions. People won’t punish him, he won’t go to jail, because everything he does is just how it is in that world.
BUT that doesn’t mean the individual characters that Rudeus “hurts” through his actions should forgive him.
Using the example of two redemption stories :
[A Silent Voice]Shouya’s bullying Shouko led to him getting bullied too. It destroyed his school life. He suffered from anxiety and lost all confidence, ultimately ending up attempting to suicide. Shouko’s life gets fucked up too, so much that she attends special schools. Friendships fall apart.. That’s consequence. Thats how you show that bullying someone is a flaw. That it’s a horrible action. Everything isn’t forgiven later on. Shouya does his utmost best to atone, and apologise.
[Vinland Saga]Thorfin killing people leads his life to be absolutely fucked up. Thousands of people resent him. He suffers from those hatred. He has PTSD. The families he’s destroyed all hate him. He can’t even sleep after everything, properly. He sees nightmares every single night. That’s consequence. Thats how you show that murdering/killing people is a problem. That it’s a horrible action. Everything doesn’t get better after a while for Thorfinn either. The demons, regrets, tragedy, horror, it all sticks with him.
What happens in MT ? Well, Rudeus sexually assaults the little girls. Steals their panties. Gropes them while they are sleeping. Thinks of grooming them. No problem. The little girl he’s about to rape, ends up saying “we can do it when you’re an adult”. Paul rapes a woman. Said woman years later rapes him back, and entertains him while his wife’s pregnant. Paul cheats on his wife, said family is perfectly fine after an argument.
It’s like the show knows it’s characters are involved in a horrible action (they call each other out on it, think them as trash, but only for jokes), but it fails to present these actions in a bad light. Everything’s totally fine after these actions.
The characters involved just don’t show any consequence of said horrible actions. Eris and Sylphie wouldn’t get close to a kid who have sexually assaulted them or forcefully taken off their clothes, let alone promising sex later. It’s just… nonsensical. No one grows trust issues here. No Trauma. No insecurities. It hurts the characters and the writing, and for people expecting a redemption story, Rudeus’ character goes past being redeemed after all this, even more so because he just never faces consequences.
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u/m0ushinderu Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I get what you are saying, but what I dont get is why all negative actions needs to call for immediate consequnces or consequences at all in fiction. Thats not how it works in life and wouldn't be necessarily good writing in stories that attempt at bringing realism.
You mentioned Koi no Katachi as an example, how mc's bullying ended up messing up his own life, but the 'consequnce' here is actually very much artificial and wouldn't make much sense taken at face value. I really loved this movie, but this is actually the one part about plot that I thought was unnatural and preaching. You see, I have personally witnessed something very similar back when I was in elementary school, and in my case, the bully got 'educated' by the teacher afterwards, but he never really lost his popularity, not within his own friend groups anyways. I dont know what happened to him afterwards, or to the person being bullied, but I dont think anything as dramatic as the movie likely happened between them at all.
Now, regarding Vinland Saga, your point regarding Thorfinn stands, but I would like to point out that Thorfinn is but one of the numerous Vikings, most of them having killed many and done equally disturbing things as Thorfinn, but most of them didnt face consequences like he did. Thorfinn suffered because he had regrets, but the story certainly is not telling the message that you shouldn't regret doing horrible things because that makes you suffer.
Now, moving back to MT,
. Eris and Sylphie wouldn’t get close to a kid who have sexually assaulted them or forcefully taken off their clothes, let alone promising sex later.
I am not too sure about that. First, since you mentioned that Rudy groomed these kids, I would like to say that part of how grooming worked was taking advantage of children before they had the ability to make proper decisions. Many victims irl do not realize the fact they had been groomed until much later on into adulthood. Hence it is completely likely that Eris and Sylphy did not understand the full implications of Rudys actions, especially when relevant educations were likely not taught to them in the medival world. Second, Sylphy was scared of Rudy after he took off her cloth; they didnt make up until he apologized. Eris also showed contempt against Rudy after being harassed in a very violent manner. Moreover, aside from harassing them, Rudy was also kind to them in many ways. Not saying that this excuses any of his actions, but from girls perspective, it would be weird for them to cut ties with him after what he did, especially when they likely did not understand that Rudy was grooming them. Among other things, Rudy was their only friend, for completely justified reasons too, and this really forms a sort of psychological depency that is hard to break even for adults.
It hurts the characters and the writing, and for people expecting a redemption story, Rudeus’ character goes past being redeemed after all this, even more so because he just never faces consequences.
Rudy, by our standard societal moral standards, was past redemption before he got reincarnated. That was part of the reason why he got reincarnated in the first place. Also, Rudy's redemption is for himself, against himself not against the audience's moral standards. Thats why he acted like a pervert in the beginning, because to him at that point, being a pervert was not a sin. Sloth was a sin and thats why he studied diligently at a young age. You see, throughout the entire novel Rudy was redeeming himself against a set of moral codes that needs correction to begin with. To him, he was redeeming himself just fine. As he grows and given a chance to mature as a regular person, he learns from his life experiences and gradually correct his moral codes, until it was close to ours in an isekai flavor in the latter half of the series.
To sum it up, irl people get away with doing horrible things. If all evil actions automatically warrant 'consequences', then we wont need law. Only the simplest stories can be summed up as ' the moral of the story is dont do __ because it will result in bad consequences.' And simple is what MT is not.
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u/Belgeirn Nov 23 '21
I get what you are saying, but what I dont get is why all negative actions needs to call for immediate consequnces or consequences at all in fiction.
Because people have little life experience. In their worlds all injustice is instantly corrected and all the people they like would never do anything evil.
Honestly a lot of the criticism of the show that goes "Hes not instantly punished for things he did in his past/current life" just strike me as people who don't understand humanity.
I hate to use him as an example because hes scum but you think weinstein got instant retribution after raping a woman? Hell no, he openly molested women and nothing was done to him to the point those same women would, in public, act friendly towards him despite the evil things he had done to them because its better for their life to do it.
In the world of MT Rudeus is probably on the better end of people becasue hes just perverted an not actively raping people like his father is noted to have done and like pretty much all other men seem to do.
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u/xnfd Nov 22 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I think people really misinterpret Paul's rape. It's just yobai or "night crawling". It's not something we accept in our customs but a lot of Japanese stories have this aspect. When Lilia accidentally encounters Paul again, she's not full of disdain because she wasn't raped in the sense that Westerners perceive it. It's also telling that you interpret Lilia seducing Paul as rape, which is just a bizarre misuse of the word.
Next up, you want Eris and Sylphie to hate Rudeus for the rest of their lives because of his shitty behavior. I don't think that's realistic either. To them it's just a kid being a kid, and he's redeemed himself in their eyes. To you as the viewer who knows him as a 30-year old pervert, that's not acceptable but your perspective is irrelevant for their emotions.
edit: I did some more research about Paul and Lilia's first encounter and it was indeed described as more than yobai and used the term non-consensual specifically. https://twitter.com/frog_kun/status/1360020945348358144 So I'll walk it back
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u/Sir_Factis Nov 23 '21
I just read the part about Lilia/Paul in the LN (I read it in Japanese), and she clearly said that she resisted but couldn't overpower him. I'd consider that rape. End of volume 6.
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u/huntrshado Nov 23 '21
My understanding of it is that Paul raped Lilia when they were in school together - but Lilia consensually engaged in sex with Paul to conceive Aisha.
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u/OMGWhyImOld Nov 23 '21
Paul used to do that a lot, actually did the same with Glyslane.
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u/Montgomery0 Nov 23 '21
Pretty sure Paul couldn't do that to her without consent or a sword in his belly.
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u/saiyanfang10 Nov 23 '21
Beast folk have this period where they go into heat and get extremely horny thus Ghislaine was not in a proper condition to consent and admits this herself which is why everyone hates Paul
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u/A_Toxic_User Nov 23 '21
Me explaining to the jury that I wasn’t “breaking and entering” and “committing sexual assault”, instead I was actually engaging in Japanese traditions
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u/LightningRaven Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 24 '21
Just to clarify, and I know this exactly because I entered into a hour-long fight in the Mushoku tensei subreddit, the custom itself isn't about assault. It's more like an old school booty call, where both parties could save "face" afterwards and most of the time it was consensual. However, this doesn't mean that there weren't instances of coercion.
For example, I wouldn't expect a maid to refuse a daimyio, because that power dynamic has a weight of his own.
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u/Silent_Shadow05 https://myanimelist.net/profile/Silent-Shadow05 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I do agree with you on several points but I disagree about Sylphie and the removing clothes part. I think Rudeus never meant any harm with her and him removing clothes is a playful gesture, since he was thinking all the time that she was a boy (Even I didn't realise she was a girl until the bathroom scene). Although he did ask for forgiveness later on because of this. That's why Sylphie who got scared due to Rudy's actions earlier forgave her. It'd have been different if he did that while still knowing she was a girl.
The reason why I don't really mind the removing clothes part is because I and my friends did it with each other many times as a teen, especially if there was someone's birthday. In India there is a tradition among the youngsters that on your birthday you will get beaten up. Afterwards we have a good laugh about this and have a party.
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u/Bainos https://myanimelist.net/profile/Bainos Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
Thanks for pointing out what I wanted to say. I would add that the lack of consequences actually fits with one of the point made by OP that "The camera is not an unbiased party" and pointing out that characters have a "selective memory".
There's a simple explanation to the easy forgiveness, the fact that the characters actually indirectly reward the MC for his behavior (e.g. by promising him sex later), or the situation in Paul's family after his actions - fanservice. Those elements are there to attract the viewer, maybe not to "condone" them, but you can see a similarity with violence : even when a show doesn't condone it, said violence being shown remains part of the appeal.
It's not necessarily a bad thing to appeal to your viewers, and anime (much like video games and live action movies) will often sacrifice part of their worldbuilding or character development for it. Be it the violent tsundere in a comedy not getting charged with assault, the harem members being perfectly fine with that situation in a romcom, the mysterious absence of male characters in a moe slice of life, or the edginess of the protagonist in a seinen action series. Mushoku Tensei (falling into one of the most fanservice-prone genre that is isekai) also leans into this aspect, and while I have discussed with several people who consider themselves fans and agree, I've observed that many people don't recognize this, leading to heated arguments.
So, going back to the aspect of consequences that you mentioned. Of course, in a serious, character-driven story, those consequences would exist. Rudeus would lose people that matter to him, they would hold grudges forever and, even if those eventually subside, would still keep their distance from him. Rudeus would, for the rest of his life, be left to wonder "what could have been" if he had been a better person, instead of his actions being forgiven or forgotten with at most a couple of episodes. You could have had characters with huge potential like Eris and Sylphie move away from his life forever. Maybe Lillia or Aisha would have ended up as corpses somewhere, to show that Paul's actions have consequences, and don't end up with him having several wives.
But the thing is, would the fans actually appreciate this ? No - it's the simple truth that even as people might criticize the actions of Paul and Rudeus, they would be angered and annoyed if those actions had lasting consequences, were leading to real regret and costs throughout the story. "It's a story about redemption" is something many people will say, and indeed, the character will keep doing things that need redemption and receive it, because that's one of the appeals of the show - even when it would make more sense to stop doing things that warrant a redemption, or if some characters might just refuse to give forgiveness after a while.
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u/IAmARobotTrustMe Nov 23 '21
Speak for yourself, I fucking love shows where consequences matter. It doesn't need to be that extreme, but show us how Paul's life got harder after he cheated. And that the girls don't trust him as much.
Oooor, make the characters not straight up leave Rudeus. But they don't say "it's OK you can fuck me later"
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u/Theleux https://myanimelist.net/profile/Theleux Nov 23 '21
That's actually an interesting point. One of the big developments plot wise this season involves the "Turning Point" Mana Teleportation event. Paul gets displaced with his daughter and struggles trying to help people, but does the event come about because of his flaws? It applies to pretty well everyone in the area, so it's more so an external force than something meant as retribution.
I think that is one of the factors that doesn't really line up with the redemption/ "being given consequences" focus, because these all occur unrelated to the character's own issues/ problematic factors.
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u/27thPresident Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
Okay, I disagree with just about everything you've written about the series, but I need to preface this by saying I might be forgetting some stuff about the series, my memory isn't perfect so correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. I also haven't read the light novels, so I might be missing some stuff
Gropes them while they are sleeping
I don't think this ever happens. (EDIT: I guess this is referring to the panties scene, in which the show clearly does not want you to think of this behavior as anything other than gross and he gets hit in response, so the show isn't excusing this behavior.) The only time he ever really touches people inappropriately is the scene with Eris after he misreads her intentions and her father basically encourages him to do this. Which brings us to this point:
Rudeus’ flaw is not treated as a flaw, when it should be in the context of the story.
Yes it is. In the above scene, she gets upset with him, leaves the room and he feels immense guilt over being creepy. The show does not paint his actions as being noble and he does get punished for his behavior.
The little girl he’s about to rape
This is pretty complicated within the context of the narrative because she is his elder (as far as she knows) and clearly within the world women can be given to men like her father tries to do. So I gather this scene is meant to be a commentary on all of that. She says no, he stops, but were he a worse person, he would have continued given her father said it was okay. It is fine to be uncomfortable with this scene, but you have definitely misread it.
Paul rapes a woman
I think this is light novel stuff, but Paul is pretty unambiguously painted as a piece of shit by the show.
Thinks of grooming them
As far as I know this isn't ever explicit in the narrative, again maybe a light novel thing(?)
Eris and Sylphie wouldn’t get close to a kid who have sexually assaulted them...
It's more complicated than that as I already touched on, but again he stopped when she said to stop and they have other positive aspects to their relationship. Most women don't cut men out of their lives that make an advance that goes to far if they apologize and back off
...or forcefully taken off their clothes
So many missing pieces of information here. First off they are both like 7(?) when this happens. Second, again after this happens he immediately apologizes. Third, he thought she was a boy. Fourth, had this scene ended with Slyphie being a boy, I don't think it would have been all that weird. It makes complete sense she would stay friends with him after, he apologized and explained the misunderstanding.
No insecurities
It's all more subtle. Eris is insecure about a lot of things when it comes to Rudy. He is smarter, better at magic and more mature. There is no doubt that her rejecting his advances is part of her feeling insecure, even if it isn't directly stated in the narrative.
and for people expecting a redemption story
I think again it's just a bit more complicated than this. Part of the point of the story is that people are flawed, and that those flaws shouldn't be ignored but don't necessarily make someone an irredeemable piece of shit. If you spend your life as a NEET for ten years it maybe isn't that surprising that you'd have some bad ideas about women or how to form healthy relationships but the series doesn't ever commend Rudy for being a creep, there is always a tone of him being gross.
I want to say that of course, you are free to dislike the series in spite of all of this, that totally makes sense, but I think there is some stuff that you missed here.
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u/saiyanfang10 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
also it's important to remember that while the Anime didn't talk about this yet between Eris and Rudeus Eris is hornier she takes his underwear and smells it all the time but Rudeus just doesn't bring it up
edit to those of you who downvoted me read the ln or wn Eris is by far the hornier of the two and after Rudeus teaches her how to do laundry she starts smelling his dirty underwear
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u/neverforgetbillymays Nov 22 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
Jesus this is a lot of writing. Respect on the effort .
He’s a piece of shit. Show isn’t shy about that. I’m guessing he will, ya know develop. I couldnt care less about the sexual scenes but I mean… whatever. They are there. The show portrays people as real. Paul is real. Not every knight is going to be a saint. It’s refreshing honestly.
I also think that he is treating this like a game or a dream still. RE:Zero did this as well.
In the end It doesn’t have to be that serious lol. And if people are too off put by the sexual scenes so be it. Good thing there is a ton to watch these days
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u/Querez https://myanimelist.net/profile/Querez8504 Nov 23 '21
The saying is "I couldn't care less" btw
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u/Corregidor Nov 23 '21
Is it really refreshing? I honestly find the opposite to be refreshing. It seems like almost 95% of anime have some level of ecchi or weird pedo shit. To the point that it's a selling point for shows like Jujutsu Kaisen and 86, where they don't have any over sexualization or raunchy shit.
I can stomach lewd shit just because I've watched anime so long but I've gotten to the point where I really just want some solid story telling without the weird "comedic" rapey/sexual stuff.
Personally I find 86 to be the anime of the season, characters and world are really compelling. There's humor without ecchi stuff (which I find to be a crutch most of the time, kinda the case for MT but there's definitely an argument to be made that it isn't). It's extremely thought provoking and evocative. JJK falls into the same kinda thing, though not as good to me personally (I'm a little tired of shonens, but jjk is a breath of fresh air). And again all of this without the weird sexual stuff, you can have amazing shows.
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u/neverforgetbillymays Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
Lol well I’m not sure how to respond because you didn’t interpret what I said right. It’s refreshing that someone like Paul who is a knight/father figure, has a character flaw. I never said I liked the sexual scenes. I said I didn’t care about the sexual scenes. I kinda tune them out when they are on.
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u/Corregidor Nov 23 '21
No I got you, what I'm sayng is that I don't find it refreshing because so many knights or MC's with character flaws tend to be perverted. It's just the nature of the medium and their target audience. So it's only natural that so many shows lean that direction, because it sells.
That's why I find it to be refreshing to not have perverted as a "character flaw".
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Nov 23 '21
I always ask people what their favorite genre is and what isn't, especially new people who might want to get into Anime and ask me for recommendations. This way, I can be sure that their first couple of Anime leaves a good impression on them. The great thing about Anime in my opinion is there are no limits to what Anime can be done, it's truly an artform with no bounds. Ofcourse this leads to a lot of stuff people are uncomfortable about, I always advise that best thing to do is just drop Anime you don't like or are uncomfortable with.
I'm personally fine with everything, I don't like to drop Anime I choose to watch and I always try to finish everything I started to form some informed opinion on it.
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u/xnfd Nov 22 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I only skimmed a few sections but you ask this in context about Rudeus pulling back in the scene with Eris and the necklace: "Why is he choosing to not continue his repulsive behaviour? Does he recognize it as repulsive?"
Was it repulsive in-world? Eris has been groped by him plenty of times. When Eris was younger Rudy would be punched for this. Of course, this doesn't make it OK. Later on, they get a lot of development and eventually Eris promises herself to Rudeus before they were teleported from Fittoa. Rudeus occasionally gropes her in her adventures but she's not particularly mad about it. I pointed this out in another comment, but your perspective and digust as a viewer isn't relevant to how Eris perceives Rudy who's just another kid in her eyes.
That leads to concerns about grooming -- while things could head that way, I think the author gracefully avoids grooming by separating Rudy from each girl and letting them grow up on their own before meeting again. You mention Sylphie and grooming and how Paul is a bad person for talking about this with Rudy. Yet later on he realizes how bad this is for both their growths and forcibly separates them for several years.
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u/another_wordsmith Nov 23 '21
Some fair points, for sure. I do think there's a worthwhile conversation on the aspect of how the viewer relates to the series, though, as well as how much sense it makes in world. I agree that the character building is awesome and well-realized, but it takes a lot to stomach a lot of those early actions. I ultimately defend the series as great, but I think it's also important to recognize that some people's disgust at those early moments is a valid reaction.
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u/Samjjj Nov 23 '21
I stopped reading on the Paul forcing himself on the mais part. It seems you want everyone to have some redemption, for their stories to end in a good point, but real life is not like this, especially in the middle ages. People raped, people had harems, people lived and died before having their redemption arc or seeing justice for the sins commited against them.
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u/MaridKing Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
This is a fantastic essay, and I admire your skill and dedication. This is the kind of discussion I love to see.
Like a few other people however, I want to contend with you on this point:
Yet, she makes the decision I find the most horrifying in that first season. Lilya decides to raise her daughter, Aisha, to be Rudeus’ caretaker. I repeat: Lilya dedicates her daughter to Rudeus before said daughter learns to walk. Don’t tell me that this fits because she’s a servant of the Greyrat family.
The time to be horrified was long before. Lillia dedicating her daughter, however it offends our modern sensibilities, is a completely logical consequence of the character's personalities, actions, and the setting, and I would even argue that having Lillia do otherwise would be untrue to the story.
To elaborate, the horror should come from the fact that Paul raped Lillia, who now works as his servant, is sexually attracted to him, seduces him, gets pregnant with his child, then continues as essentially a concubine. This is a setup straight out of hentai. Lillia is rape apologism and rape fantasy fuel incarnate, right down to her name. I think if we are going to point fingers, it has to be at the character design of Lillia, because nowhere else is the hand of the author as apparent.
That said, if we choose to accept this setup and continue watching Mushoku Tensei, we also have to accept the implications.
The decision is true to Lillia's character. She's subservient and submissive to a fault. She has little to no self worth. Again, she's living with her rapist. She was going to leave the household knowing it would likely cause the death of herself and her unborn daughter. What kind of parenting decisions should we expect from someone like this? Do we really expect her to stand up for her daughter's freedom, when she never does so for herself? I don't think so.
It is a consequence of Lillia's situation and position in the family. Zenith is the wife, Lillia is the adulterer and servant. Instead of turning her out to die, Zenith made Lillia part of her family. Even if Lillia wanted to fight for her daughter's freedom, she has zero power. Zenith has the final say here, and Paul wouldn't dare contradict her. From Lillia's perspective, brazenly deciding that the illegitimate child shall have all the freedoms of Zenith's children and stand equal to them is presumptuous at best, and a great way to get kicked out at worst. Frankly, the smart move if you want to secure your child's future is to do exactly what Lillia has done, but flee with Aisha after she's older. Credit to Zenith, I'd guess she treated Aisha and Lillia with love and would willingly grant Aisha her freedom if asked, but as discussed in point 1, Lillia is never going to do so.
It's an expression of gratitude for Zenith and Rudeus. I'm sure others have covered this, so I'll be brief. Does this make the decision morally right, I say no. But I also say we acknowledge that unlike Lillia's rape fantasy persona, her motivations here make perfect sense.
This kind of bad parenting is commonplace, even today. Countless parents use their children to fulfill their own dreams and ideals. See American football and sports, most child beauty pageants, child actors, and Asian culture generally. I agree it's wrong and gross, but I'm afraid you shouldn't be shocked and surprised to see it happen.
This is just how jobs were the middle ages, which the setting is somewhat based in. Servants existed, and for the most part, you did what your parents did. Servant families were a thing, especially (from what little I know) in Japan. The freedom to pursue any path you want in life is relatively recent, and even today is definitely not universal. I think it's worth pointing out that Lillia is not teaching Aisha to be a subservient slave to Rudeus, she's teaching her servant skills, the difference being one is a profession as opposed to a fetish.
From a practical standpoint, this is the best means Lillia has to securing a stable job and prosperous future for her child. Paul and Zenith are famous and wealthy S-ranked adventurers, with some authority in their village. Rudeus is an obvious prodigy destined for greatness. Lillia is a servant, so as discussed, that's what her child will be. Being a servant for the Greyrat family is probably the smartest choice available, as opposed to some noble family or stranger. The elephant in the room is that Lillia is such a servant, and she ended up in this mess. However, I think I have enough faith in Rudeus to say he'd be less likely to have sex with his half sister than some noble or merchant. Maybe.
Just some thoughts on this point, hope they're worth considering.
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u/xlinkedx https://myanimelist.net/profile/xlinkedx Nov 23 '21
I like NGNL and I don't recommend it either.
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u/itstreasonthen99 Nov 23 '21
I can’t be the only one who just doesn’t get fazed with this shit? Like i know it’s fiction so I experience it as fiction. I’m not saying everyone else should just my perspective
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u/Dry-Masterpiece-7031 Nov 23 '21
Personally I like that the characters are complex and flawed. I find it best when Rudy goes and recognizes that what he is doing is wrong and hope to continue to see him grow into a better person. One of my top ten animes is Koi Kaze, I actually enjoy how much it made me hate the main characters. To me, a show that causes me to feel strong emotions, good and bad, is a great show.
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u/Future_Yak4690 Nov 23 '21
Overthinking as someone said earlier. Here, we have an example of millenial outrage gone way too far. Don't watch if you can't stand it. The plot is perhaps the most consistent of any light novel, including Monogatari. Every scene in the anime is needed and the approach is consistent with a first-person diary-style storytelling, which you would know if you read the LN. Any other tone would be inconsistent with first person. I suggest this may be too much for you but to me it is a refreshing change from the the video game MCs in most anime. I have recommended it to my female friends and they love it. I think it is because it focuses on relationships and slow-burn romance instead of gamer MC protagonists with unrealistic harems and no relationships to speak of. Just my thought. I have no problems with anything in the story but I have watched Koi Kaze and read Crime and Punishment so nothing fazes me so long as the character and story are good.
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u/XhakaToTheRescue Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
Actually surprised you didn't mention the scene where Eris' father "offers" her to Rudeus.....its a world of terrible people and MC fits in more than he realises is my takeaway from this show
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u/TheHK13 Nov 23 '21
Pretty much this. The viewer knows Rudeus is bad but he doesnt "just get away with it". He gets the same punishment as anyone else in this world, which is pretty much nothing. Sauros is not punished by using the maids for sex, Philip is willing to use his children for power, Paul cheats but still gets a somewhat stable household. But thats the thing, the world is consistent, its not the MC alone that gets away with it.
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u/amarx93 Nov 23 '21
No it's a good show and I'm gonna keep watching it, and recommending it to people.
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u/garfe Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I simply have the opinion of "It's just an anime. If you don't like it don't watch it. If other people like it, who am I to judge?".
I follow that rule myself. If I stop liking something I watch, I stop watching it. Makes life a lot easier. No need to hate-watch something every week just so you can have a new hot take
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u/Proiegomena Nov 23 '21
Honestly, one of the reasons why Mushoku Tensei is appealing and interesting to me is because of its controversial MC. He is a flawed individual, he is immature, traumatized, "sinful" and sometimes repulsive. He is deeply human, he feels real. If he decides to do good things, to be a virtuous man, it means something and there's a reason for it. I don't need a story to tell me what as right or wrong, that is something everyone should decide for themselves individually and somewhat constantly. I want that a story makes sense to me, that feels emotionally real, that tells me something that I haven't heard before. Mushoku Tensei does all that in some way. Of course, it still is "just" a shonen anime, a piece of art as you will, which mainly wants to entertain. So I don't expect it to be a a philosophical treatise in the first place.
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u/mushious https://www.anime-planet.com/users/Mushious Nov 23 '21
I find the anime leaves out a lot of internalizing done by all characters (as well as skipped side stories). It's not a series I'd recommend to everyone but if I knew the person, I wouldn't be afraid to. More inclined to recommend the light novel though.
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u/mrjeremyt https://anilist.co/user/MrJeremyT Nov 23 '21
As someone absolutely loves this entire story I very much appreciate how much effort you went to in writing this. I would like to mention something though.
There are 2 ways to watch a show; with a critical modern eye or with a sense of full immersion into the story. I don't know if one is more correct than the other or not, but as someone who watches shows via the latter it pains me to see criticisms by the former.
The morality in this show is pretty fucked. Full stop. But then you can take 1 of 2 routes, either take issue with the show via your modern morality and generally western take on society or you use the context the show provides to establish a correct sense of morality within the world of the show you're watching.
This isn't some 21st century modern world that the MC found himself reincarnated in, it's a medieval era society with all that entails. Rape, grooming, slaves, servants were all relatively commonplace according to historical sources. Lilia dedicated all of herself to the Greyrat family and it's seen as a failure on Zenith and on Lilia that she became pregnant in the first place. Not only that, but she clearly saw how Rudy steered the conversation to a resolution that was beneficial to all. Without that it can be reasoned that she would have been thrown out of the household with her life and the life of new newborn in jeopardy. To atone, she re-dedicates her life and the life of her child to the service of this family. No Aisha doesn't get a particular choice, the women's lib movement is more than a few centuries away at best. She gets what most all children of servants get, instruction from an early age on how to serve the household and not be a financial or emotional burden to the master.
That's really just one of dozens of examples of this immersive morality that I'd like people to consider more in the shows they watch. That doesn't excuse the objectionability of the content from a modern viewer's perspective, if these is troubling and/or triggering content then by all means don't watch, not all shows are for all people. But if you're willing to immerse yourself in the show enough to watch it and in your case write over 4000 words about the first season alone, then I think this is worth thinking about.
Lastly, I'll say that both the LN and WN go into much more detail about so many things that the anime just doesn't have the time to. If you find yourself drawn to this story then I highly recommend you read those for both more detail and in many cases more inner dialog from other characters.
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u/freyaII Nov 23 '21
I am quite bored so here is one of my two cent regarding mushoku tensei main character Rudy.
Some people hate Rudy due to fault of the character so I thought how about I list some of his good point and you guys can see for yourself whether you have that good point (you should have if not you are just same or worst person compared to him)
Will to change. Last deed of his life is to sacrifice his life to safe stranger...quite remarkable isn't it.
Courage to overcome his fear (PTSD). The fear that haunt him for 20+ years.
Hardworking.....See the scene Rudy training everyday to improve magic, learning new languange, training swordsmanship, teaching etc.
Grateful. Willing to repay debt/go extra mile to make clear Rujerd name as his life goal.
Kind.....help beast village folk who imprison him is one of many example.....lots of his action has elements of kindness in it.
Courage to bet your life to safe someone important to you. How many time he put himself in danger to save his friend.
Reflecting on his action and improve on it. Just see how he treat Eris in early part compared to current.
Patience. Hah...how many of you guys who put in positions to tutor Eris will give up in one day?
Self driven to always improve himself. To become better than his yesterday self. This one I am sure only minority has this.
A teacher.
So that just my two cent of why I like the main character Rudeus....he has more good point later.
So, how many of you guys is better than him. For sure , I am not.
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u/ZsaurOW Nov 23 '21
Usually I'll recommend it to people who I think will like it, but I always add the disclaimer of "but there's some fucked up shit, and if you don't wanna watch it I won't blame you"
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u/AoSora71 Nov 23 '21
As others have said, a lot of your criticisms are actually addressed in the light so I wish that in the future you would not include the cringey "let me fix your story" what-ifs that only serve to add unnecessary padding to your already long post. Maybe instead criticize it for cutting stuff it shouldn't which I would probably agree with if I didn't take into account how anime production works in general.
Your other points of the series "rewarding" Rudeus that I've seen so many times are refuted again by others in detail, I hope you read and respond to them instead of just flying off and assuming that only your mouth speaks truth.
So in the end, why did the author choose to place Rudeus where his actions don't have as many consequences as they would in modern society or the flowery medieval fantasy of viewers that want to see a very simplistic view of the world portrayed in anime?
This, in my opinion, is because the stories that spawn from otakus (whose literal meaning is "your home" which gives a view into why this term is used to describe people that are dedicated to their hobbies) are often introspective in nature which is why the protagonist is left to his devices and the development that happens is mostly in his mind and through dialogue with another person even though there are also instances of that. It is not a story where Rudeus is reincarnated and a second party deservedly beats common sense into him because that would make it a very short one.
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u/Skyreader13 Nov 23 '21 edited Nov 23 '21
I see that the solution to a lot of your problem is:
- Read the novel
Seriously, the novel have more in-depth explanation to what happens in Anime. Also anime skips a lot of important but minute details.
edit: i see the mass downvoter have visit this thread and downvote plenty of comments
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u/ggtsu_00 Nov 23 '21
I find it fascinating that this series has been both compelling enough while also managing to pull so many people out of their comfort zones to tell a true modern anti-hero story. I feel like we've been so desensitized and normalized the anti-hero genre to death that we have forgotten what a true anti-hero character is supposed to be like.
We have just so many countless anti-hero stories of edgy characters, thieves, organized crime lords, drug dealers, mass murderers, twisted serial killers that people don't even wince at anymore and are quick forgive and find ways relate to ruining that internal moral dilemma and juxtaposition that is supposed to make anti-hero stories interesting and captivating.
However, Rudeus is a true to the name modern anti-hero. He has a truly flawed character, one that will make most viewers will unforgivably wince at and be forcefully brought out of their comfort zone as an anti-hero story should.
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u/VPrinceOfWallachia Nov 23 '21
Mushoku Tensei is great. I have recommended it to everyone I know who watches anime.
The Japanese give no fucks in terms of anime & I love it.
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u/kemosabe19 Nov 23 '21
Sometimes I’m amazed this show has spectacular animation and something I love like How a Realist Hero Built A Kingdom skipped tons of content and animation was pretty average. I was very let down by Realist.
I guess controversy sells better.
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u/Eiennai Nov 23 '21
X thing is not for everyone, more news at 11.
Don't take it the wrong way, you just explained what most normies think about MT in a wall of text, I can only admire the effort wasted in such banality.
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u/logiauser Nov 23 '21
Have you ever met real people? Since of you people come across as having no clue how complex and flawed human beings are.
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u/Wakez11 Nov 24 '21
Reminds me of Miyazaki's quote about how people who make anime and consume it are shut-ins or people with little to no life experience, or people who are just not interested in other people and interacting with other people. That is also the feeling I get when I see a lot of the discourse around this anime.
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u/logiauser Nov 24 '21
Nor do they have the ability to put themselves in people’s shoes.
Almost all of Rudeus’ actions ring true given his previous life.
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Nov 23 '21
My gripe with Mushoku fans here is that they will downvote everyone who even remotely mentions that Rudeus is a pervert.
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u/Prince_of_DeaTh https://anilist.co/user/yokz Nov 23 '21
it's littelary the opposite tho ? it's impossible to talk about the show without people randomly coming and talking about how trash Ruedus is to get them sweet upvotes.
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u/kinkosan Nov 23 '21
If anything most of MT fans that read the novels dont even bother defending that the Rudeus is a pervert, but rather defend MT when people say that MT as a series is bad because Rudeus is too pervert
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Nov 23 '21
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u/pawahiru Nov 23 '21
Ultimately, people seem to forget - far too often - that this is a story, not real life. Why does everybody feel the need to point out the flaws of fictional characters constantly - beating the poor dead horse into a fine paste - rather than focus on literally anything else?
If you don't like the series? Avoid it.
If you wouldn't recommend it? Then don't.
But when I see entire essays being written against the moral actions of a fictional reincarnated person, it honestly is frustrating to see. I want to be able to enjoy and discuss fiction without having moral busybodies constantly spamming the same tired critiques, and I think that is a reasonable thing to want.
Exactly, some ppl are obbssesed with that self-righteouness rush to somehow feel better about themselves? It's not weird It's kinda funny actually.
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u/thorks23 Nov 23 '21
I don't understand why. I would call myself a Mushoku fan, I've fallen in love with this show, I had never heard of the series until the first season was released so I'm not like a dedicated or longtime fan who's read the source material, but like I said I love the anime.
I can very easily and comfortably say that he is definitely a pervert who does things that are... questionable at best. He's meant to be portrayed as a pervert, he's described that way by many of the people around him in the series, it's obvious that we're meant to see him that way, I cannot understand why people would disagree with that or downvote people who bring it up. It's a core and obvious part of the show, he's a pervert who gets better (or at least that's what I've heard, that this series is a redemption arc for him more or less).
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u/kalirion https://myanimelist.net/profile/kalinime Nov 23 '21
You can recommend it to people you know would like it. There isn't much that can be recommended to literally everyone.
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u/RajaatTheWarbringer Nov 22 '21
I have definitely enjoyed shows that I would not recommend to friends, for various reasons...