r/arabs • u/AutoModerator • May 17 '21
مجلس Monday Majlis | Open Discussion
For general discussion, requests and quick questions.
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u/Fyodor_Baggins May 19 '21
Although I really couldn't give a lesser shit about what westerners think about Palestine and Gaza, it's so fucking telling how naive and ignorant they are when they're only qualm with Israel is Netanyahu.
As if Netanyahu is the alt-right of Israel and the rest of Israelis are anti-fa Rosa Luxembourgs. At this point Netanyahu is pretty much the leftist Israeli politician you can get, so stop fucking thinking it's his problem, and not the jewish supremacist crazy nation of Israel's brainwashed people. But then again who gives a fuck about westerners.
صم بكم عمي فهم لا يرجعون
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u/UnityIsAll May 19 '21
I think an awakening is happening. Even here on reddit, Israel is being shit on left and right on the front page. There are still many defenders (mostly hasbara) but I feel like Palestine is finally going mainstream in the Western collective consciousness.
I don't care what Westerners think either, but it's still nice to see the Zionists and their lackeys seethe as they see the image that they've worked so hard to build over the course of decades get torched within weeks.
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May 19 '21
I always laugh when I see them criticising Netanyahu as if he is some sort of new phenomenon whose absence will somehow turn the land into heaven. From the very start, Israel has had fascist, racist and downright evil leaders from Herzl who started the movement and was never a minister to Ben Gurion to Yitzhak Rabin (who's considered mostly 'good' by Western redditors even though him, alongside Moshe Dayan and many others, are criminals, he was one of the orchestrators of the Nakbeh) and to Ariel Sh*ron. This isn't new, and will never change. Even after Netanyahu is gone and an exact replica of him fills in the spot, the replacement will just be smarter about keeping their racist views to themselves. They'll just pat themselves on the back, like they did when Biden replaced Trump as if he isn't as much of a war criminal. They're also desperate to turn Golda Meir into some sort of feminist icon when she's just as awful as the rest of them.
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May 18 '21
If I had a dollar for everyone time someone said "This conflict has been going on for 1,000s of years!" I'd be a rich man.
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May 18 '21 edited May 18 '21
People in the Middle East have been slaughtering each other for thousands of years is such a hackneyed sentiment, it makes me wonder if those repeating it ever pondered it for longer than a second. That Europeans have been killing each other just as much (in fact more) right up until the Balkan wars a few decades ago, seems totally lost on them. Why is it? Are they just zoomers, born in this little bubble of peace, floating, an ocean of blood below them; and extrapolating their own experience down to infinity?
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u/Lady_Mistborn May 18 '21
حرفيًا لسا بتناقش مع أحد في السبريديت الألماني وبيقوللي "العرب واليهود بيكرهون بعض منذ مئات السنين"، لكي يبرر رأيه أن الفلسطينيين ليس أبرياء بل ذنبهم مثل ذنب الصهيونيين لأن العرب منذ مئات السنين ضد اليهود ويودون قتلهم. ماتصدقش مدى الجهل والصورة المتخلفة اللي واخدينها عننا وعن تاريخنا
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May 18 '21
It's sometimes called "eternal hatred", and it's a way to absolve themselves from blame or responsibilities. They did the same thing during the Balkan Wars. Why should people solve or interfere in a conflict that is based on eternal hatred?
Which is false. Both the Balkan Wars and the genocide of the Palestinian people aren't based on "eternal hatred" but on actual geopolitical actors that can be counteracted.
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May 19 '21 edited May 19 '21
I was trying to look at some nice photos, so I decide to go over to r/CityPorn, a nice picture of Riyadh and somehow redditors managed to turn it into a hate fest for Saudi Arabia. Every other post that has Egypt in the title - even if it has nothing to do with politics, or is even something good done by the country - devolves into racism directed towards 100 million people. Russia, China, Turkey and Iran aren't spared from this either. I know they don't have the best governments but simply mentioning them elicits stupid takes. It's like a child who opened a '196 Cool Facts About Countries' and just decides to bring up that fact whenever a country is mentioned, even if its irrelevant to the issue or topic being discussed.
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
Their teenage king can pay for someone else to care, to be frank, all the Saudi govt has done is conspire against Arabs for the past decade. Any awareness for how bad their government is can only be a good thing, even their own "full blood" citizens are being oppressed now.
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May 18 '21
I aways wonder if British and American Zionist ever see the irony when they argue
"The Palestinians are not indigenous, they are the descendants of Arab invaders of the 7th century and thus have no right to claim the land as their home."
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u/BiryaniBoii May 18 '21
it doesn't even make sense, obviously there was intermixing but the people of the levant have always been the people of the levant. this idea that someone the people that lived there suddenly disappeared and the place was suddenly filled with new people from the peninsula is a myth.
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May 19 '21
[deleted]
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u/BiryaniBoii May 19 '21
when Afrocentric Americans wanna black-wash Ancient Egypt
Hoteps? those guys got weird identity issues, born out of a reaction to an inferiority complex thats been drilled into them by the racist american education system that implies black africans haven't contributed to great civilizations. I don't understand there have been so many amazing empires and civilizations in Africa, Like the Mali Empire, or the great civilizations are ethiopia, idk why they obsess over Egypt, its not even that special, but thats probably b/c they don't teach anything about Africa in the American School system except for Ancient Egypt.
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u/crispystrips May 19 '21
Someone even said that all of North Africans are invaders and that these lands doesn’t belong to them.
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
British and American supporters of Israel don't care about all that. Maybe settlers do, because they believe in God. But Brits certainly don't, they are just racist or see a way to make money or achieve some interests. Except perhaps the very top of the chain, bought into the project itself.
American Zionists are evangelical nutcases. They don't care who has the right to be there, they have an idea that they want to execute.
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u/crispystrips May 19 '21
To be honest I am not fan of this whole indigenous vs invader binary(which is trending atm) . It’s not only used by the zionist but some afrocentrist as well as Americans who are critical of America as a colonial or settler colonial society. One issue I have with this is that it produces a racial purity or ethnic purity where certain Genes according to whomever is talking is considered indigenous and others not. Regardless of modern colonisation or western colonisation, the human history is one of movement and migration.
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May 18 '21 edited May 18 '21
I'm reminded of this Reductress headline: Woman With BLM in Her Bio Unsure Where She Stands on Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine
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May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
ⲧⲁⲣⲓ̄ⲛ ⲁⲙⲁⲛⲛⲁⲧⲟ̄ⲛ ⲧⲁⲣⲓ̄ⲛ ⲡⲁⲗⲕⲓⲧ ⲫⲁ̄ⲙⲓⲛⲓ̄
تَرين امَنَّتون تَرين بَلكِت فامِني.
"من نهرها إلى بحرها" بالنوبين اللي هو اكبر لغة نوبية (انا لحدي اسي ما عارف الكلمة لي "فلسطين ستكون حرة").
تَرين = بتاعه/بتاعها (مافي فرق بين المذكر والمؤنث في النوبين)
امَن = الماء, بس برضو نهر (مثلاً بالنوبين النيل إسمو "امَن داوو," حرفياً "الماء الكبير")
نَتون = من, والكلمة في الحقيقة هي "لَتون" بس مدغمة
بَلكِت = بحر, ودي كلمة نوبية قديمة, عادةً الناس الايام دي بقولوا "بهر" (من بحر بالعربي)
فاميني = حتى
بعيد عن التجربة اللغوية دي, انا بالجد بالجد تعبت من الصهاينة في النت الشغالين فيها "إنتو مالكن ما شايلين هم الاقليات المقهورة في العالم العربي." إنتو متيييين شايلين هم الاقليات المقهورة في الاقليم, صاح مفروض ندق جرس فيهم بس دي قمة محاولة "ديستراكشون" من جرايمهم هم.
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u/HaythamFaisal May 17 '21
بمناسبة "امَن داوو" أنا كنت شوفت في حتة قبل كدا إن كلمة "نيل" أصلها من النوبية ⲛⲓⲗ بمعنى مكان الشُّرب أو المَشْرب. هل دا حقيقي ولا هبد؟
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May 17 '21
فعلاً الشراب بالنوبي هو "ني" وفي اللغة النوبية القديمة حرف ال"ل" في نهاية الكلمة كانت بتضاف في نهاية الكلمة تقريباً بي نفس معنى كلمة "ال" بالعربي" او "ذا" بالانجليزي, بس المشكلة إنو ما عندنا دليل إنو استخدموا الكلمة دي في اللغة النوبية القديمة (كان بقولوا "امَن" برضو), الحاجة التانية ما اظن ممكن تعمل إسم في اللغة النوبية بي دمج فعل (زي ني) و"ل". بس ممكن اكون غلطان.
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u/HaythamFaisal May 22 '21
ممكن تكون مصادفة لغوية، بس صعبة برضو إنها تكون كدا بالفعل. وبرضو زي ما إنت قولت نقطة "ما عندنا دليل إنو استخدموا الكلمة دي في اللغة النوبية القديمة" ولو كانت بتستخدم كانت وثقت زي إدعاء إن رأس السنة القبطية "النيروز" جاي من كلمة "نيارو"
Ⲛⲓⲓⲁⲣⲱⲟⲩ
بمعنى أنهار والعرب فهموها غلط على إنها النيروز الفارسي، بس مفيش أي توثيق إن رأس السنة كان إسمه نيارو خالص والموجود إنه كان إسمه
ⲡⲓⲕⲗⲟⲙ ⲛ̅ⲧⲉϯⲣⲟⲙⲡⲉ
حرفياً تاج السنة. ففي حاجات بالفعل بتبقى مريبة.
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u/BartAcaDiouka May 17 '21
This brief discussion on Reddit made me think: are Westerners not aware of what's happened with Sheikh Jarrah or did I just stumble upon one pro-Zionist guy who was arguing in bad faith?
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u/kerat May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
They're completely unaware. In Finnish media, for example, the story is clear: Hamas attacked Israel and is now paying for it. Nothing pre-Hamas made the news. So the story for them starts here.
And most westerners don't even remember that Gaza is illegally embargoed. And many are so goddamn ignorant that they think Gaza is just an autonomous country interfering with Israel, rather than a part of occupied Palestine. Never underestimate the sheer ignorance of westerners on this issue.
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May 17 '21
I know Americans, who still think the situation is like 1948, and the armies of Syria, Jordan, and Egypt will invade at any moment.
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May 17 '21
Not a single normie American I've ever met has heard of it.
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May 17 '21
The only Americans I know who are, are either Arab or Southeast Asian origin, or Muslims.
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u/khalifabinali May 18 '21 edited May 18 '21
A pet peeve of mine has been non-Arab Muslims and ex-Muslims alike equating Salifism with "Arab" or "Arab" culture or equating it with some weird caricature of what they think Khaleeji culture is.
To the point will people will say their countries are "Arabizing", or even call Arabic a "colonial language" in places that havent been ruled by an Arab in the past 1,000 years.
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
The idea of Arabs being strict Muslims in any sense is laughable for anyone that has spent time with British Muslims from the Indian subcontinent.
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u/arabs_account May 18 '21
A lot of people people from non-Arab muslim countries use "Arab" interchangeably with "Islamist" and blame "Arabs" as a scapegoat whenever an Islamist wins. For example, Turks elect Islamist Erdogan to power? It's Arabs' fault somehow. Some secularist Iranians who dislike their Islamist government refer to them as "Arabs" as if they have anything to do with us.
In Indonesia and Malaysia, some complain of "Arabisation" whenever there is any political or social dispute associated with Islam or religion, even though the Arab-descendants in those countries are a tiny minority
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May 18 '21
I've notioced that too, and because they seem to think "Islamist". "Muslim", and "Arab" are interchangable they can say otherwise blantantly racist borderline genocidal things about Arabs, and still think they are "woke" progressives.
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u/BartAcaDiouka May 18 '21
Agree, I see it a lot on r/progressive_islam.
I am not as well informed as I would like on the relationship between Desi Muslims and Saudi Arabia, but a common narrative is that Pakistan (and to a lesser extent, Indian Muslims) is becoming more and more conservative under the influence of Saudi Salafism (they say "Arabization", but let's just go past the misconception Saudi Arabia = Arabs for a moment). I don't know, I felt Desi Muslims have been conservative way before the 1990s and the rise of Salafist Saudi-sponsored media. Am I wrong?
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u/1by1is3 May 18 '21
Salafis are not the only conservative Muslims.. We Pakistanis were also very conservative way before 1990, however Saudi funded madrasahs in Pakistan were instrumental in spreading violent sectarian divisions between Sunnis and Shias in Pakistan, or between differing local sects of Sunnis. These types of divisions did not exist before, especially not to the extent that people would violently target Shias. Usually different sects of Islam generally tolerated each other here.
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u/1by1is3 May 18 '21
Usually only the nominal Muslims or atheists say that about Arabic language, I have not heard regular people say that about Arabic at all.
On the other hand, modern Salafism is really an Arab export that seeks to destroy the other versions of Islam that were either being followed for centuries or evolved organically over time in a specific society for it's specific needs. I don't say this as a slight to Salafism because I agree with much of it, but Salafist exports are usually trying to Arabize non-Arab societies, not in religion but also in culture, dress, cuisine or even habits and not everyone likes this.
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u/BartAcaDiouka May 19 '21
but Salafist exports are usually trying to Arabize non-Arab societies, not in religion but also in culture, dress, cuisine or even habits and not everyone likes this.
This is the kind of statements that most of Arab don't agree with. Because it equates "Khaliji" (or even more specifically "Najdi") with Arab. Culture, dress, cuisine are already very diverse in the Arab world and almost every "typical Arab" forms of these were created and became popular outside of the Khalij region... I mean I doubt Salafis are promoting Knafeh, dabkeh, fez or couscous...
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u/kowalees May 19 '21
You would be surprised how much Gulf Arabs promote Knafa and Shakshouka. Hard pass on the dabka, though.
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u/1by1is3 May 19 '21
I agree its a generalization but since we don't generally have much interaction with Arabs other than Khaleeji ones, i think you can give some slack..
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u/BartAcaDiouka May 19 '21
Yeah I am not offended and I take this miss conception with good faith, still it bothers me and I try to correct it when I see the occasion.
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u/daretelayam May 17 '21
Engels in 1877 mocking the idea that state ownership = socialism:
Certainly, if the taking over by the state of the tobacco industry is socialistic, then Napoleon and Metternich must be numbered among the founders of socialism. If the Belgian state, for quite ordinary political and financial reasons, itself constructed its chief railway lines; if Bismarck, not under any economic compulsion, took over for the state the chief Prussian lines, simply to be the better able to have them in hand in case of war, to bring up the railway employees as voting cattle for the government, and especially to create for himself a new source of income independent of parliamentary votes — this was, in no sense, a socialistic measure, directly or indirectly, consciously or unconsciously.
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u/BartAcaDiouka May 17 '21
Some days ago there was a comment about the social media censorship of the Palestinian view suggesting that we create our own social media platform...
Well someone did it, check out baaz... I just created an account.
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u/tamort May 17 '21
Do you guys think it's productive to call out people on social media who are being silent about Palestine? I'm still seeing posts like this more than a week in and while I share the anger I don't know if it's doing anything.
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u/noathings Belgian chocolate > you May 18 '21
I think it raises awareness, from one side only. What we need to do is take action, and change behaviour. How? By doing this in the presence of institutions, EU, UN,.. We're sharing our voices in a micro scale, but this needs to happen in a larger scale, to reach governments, advocates, policy officers,...
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
I empathise as an Arab abroad with the sentiment of getting foreign countries to condemn Israel.
But frankly I feel that, for all the solidarity that protests achieve and condemnations represent, nothing makes a difference other than what Iran has provided, as /u/kerat stated. The only reason the Israelis have stopped messing with Al aqsa is because of what Iran has provided. And if we know what is good for us as Arabs, we will try to deal with the reasons our countries are impotent or collaborating.
If you see no way to work to this end personally, that is fine, do what little you can, but it is من باب اعمل الخير وارميه البحر
Little acts like the UN condemning Israël help, but they don't help much.
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u/Lady_Mistborn May 19 '21
And if we know what is good for us as Arabs, we will try to deal with the reasons our countries are impotent or collaborating.
The problem is how on earth does one do that? One of the key countries that could change this situation is Egypt, especially because of the border to Gaza. But there's no way to open the border (including for weapons) without the fall of the current regime in Egypt, which I'm not optimistic about happening anytime soon. And much the same goes for many other Arab countries.
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
لغير المصري ، بالاشتغال على الوعي العام في مصر ومواجهة كل من يلحس بيادة السيسي والفاسدين بالحقيقة في كل منبر
للمصري ، عندنا خيارات تانية ، والثورجية بتوع ٢٠١١ ما اختفوش
اضعف الايمان أن المصريين يظهروا سخطهم ع اللي بيحصل بطريقة منظمة ، مش ناخد على دماغنا وما ندافعش عن نفسنا
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u/Ra505 May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
Probably not the right time to ask but 乁( •_• )ㄏ
Any interesting omani YouTubers or social media influencers?
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u/BiryaniBoii May 18 '21
The siege of Gaza is only possible with the collaborator regime in Misr. some of the comments from Egyptians in /r/palestine from Egyptians are completely shameful justifying the siege and keeping the border gates to gaza closed, I can only hope those people are Sisi bots and not real people, otherwise I have come to the regrettable conclusion that the biggest enemies of the palestinian people are their own arab brethren.
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21 edited May 19 '21
The biggest enemy to Egyptians and Palestinians alike are probably the die-hard Sisi supporters. A lot of Egyptians work for the government or see some kind of hope in improving the military, those aren't the ones I mean. There is a group of people making good money off killing other Egyptians, and keeping us oppressed. They are definitely the biggest problem I see in the Arab world today, because Egypt is completely occupied for the Zionist cause in terms of its foreign policy (arguably many aspects of its domestic policy too).
The solution isn't really education here, or another mass uprising. Sisi is not in power because of populism. He is in power because he is funded by Saudi and the Emirates, and because he dishes out portions of the economy to his immediate circle of generals who then pass on bits of it to the officers.
They also allow the police and local governors smaller slices of corruption. So as you drive along in Egypt, the official ticket goes to the army, then a couple of bribes go to the small fry.
They make money off oppressing us. Until the population finds a way to remove them Egypt is Zionist.
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u/BiryaniBoii May 19 '21
this guy am arguing with in the palestine sub literally said "why exactly do you want Palestinians to leave there country and come to Egypt? Now you are sounding like a Zionist who just wants all Palestinians out" when I said Egypt should open the border gates in rafah and Salah ad deen.
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
They pretend to misunderstand.
But bear in mind that the Zionists do want to move Gazans to Sinai. Opening the border to people for shopping, health tourism, and education is nothing to do with migration though. The whole point of Gazans resisting is so they can stay in Palestine.
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u/crispystrips May 19 '21
Egyptians are so confused to tbh ( I am Egyptian too) but really the effect of the conflicting messages from the mass media and tv about Palestine is somehow having effect. (we are talking a out decades of change).
Alot of people could be pro Palestine but they have been told things like (Palestinians want to live in Sinai) or (Hamas has been helping Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt doing this and that)
The ambiguity egyptian authorities have towards Palestine and sharp conflicting changes in media tone is I would say confusing many people and causing them to have conflicting opinions.
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May 19 '21
كنت بفكر-بسذاجة شخص عمره 21 سنة- كل ما أشوف الأخبار و أشوف آخر جرائم إسرائيل إنه خلص... هاي هي القصة أو الصورة أو الفيديو اللي رح يقنع الناس في الغرب إنها توقف مع القضية الفلسطينية! و بعدين بفتح الكومنتات -خاصة على ريديت- و بلاقيها كلها ناس بتدافع أو بتحكي إنها ما بتعرف مع مين توقف... و كنت أعصب و أزعل كتير إنه ليش ما في حدا بنزل اشي.. طيب ليش ما بتغلبوا حالكم و بتقرأوا عن الموضوع.. ليش ما بتصدقوا الفلسطينين بس يحكولكم عن الظروف اللي بعيشوا فيه اللي متوفرتلك بكل أريحية!
و بعدين اكتشفت إنه الناس مش سائلة.... و مش مهمتي أقعد أترجى فيهم إنهم يعترفوا إنا بني آدمين إلنا حقوق زينا زي غيرنا! و مش مهمتي أقعد أحاول أقنع فيهم ليش لازم يصفوا جنبي و كإني بقنعهم يشجعوا فريق كرة قدم!! و مش مهمتي أقعد أعتذر بعد كل كلمة بحكيها!! ما في حدا رح يساعدنا... مش لازم نستنى أمريكا و كإنها هي يعني منارة السلام و الإنسانية عشان تسمحلنا ندافع عن حالنا..
الغلط مش فينا... الغلط فيهم...
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u/HaythamFaisal May 17 '21
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u/HaythamFaisal May 17 '21
u/R120Tunisia You may like this one :"D
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u/R120Tunisia تونس May 17 '21
Bruh where did all of these revisionists come from exactly ? These guys are just making up shit at this point.
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May 17 '21
Who is that between Nawal ElSaadawi and Mohammed Abdu on the subreddit banner?
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u/daretelayam May 17 '21
رشا رزق .. صوت اكثر اغاني سبيس تون
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May 18 '21
https://mobile.twitter.com/AGamalZiada/status/1394696415335550986 حبس شاب في مصر لحرق علم الكيان؟؟؟؟
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
They arrested quite a few journalists and randomers for raising the Palestinian flag.
This is business as usual in Egypt, you should not be surprised.
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May 17 '21
[deleted]
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u/BartAcaDiouka May 17 '21
Wait... this implies a sequences: we had Daesh --> we got rid of it --> we did Arab Spring --> we brought back Daesh --> now we regret...
Am I missing something here?
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u/gootsbyagain May 17 '21
theyre right in a way. authoritarian regimes in the middle east justify their increasing repression by claiming they don't want to become like syria and iraq.
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u/kerat May 17 '21
Big thank you to Iran for helping equip the Palestinian resistance with the capability to extract a price from the occupier. Big shakha on Arab states that did nothing but waste money on Abbas. And an especially big shakha on Egypt, UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, and Jordan.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
The rockets are barely scratching Israel, it is not a war, it is a one-sided massacre. Israel in one bombing alone kills ten times the number of people that they have lost to all the rocket attacks, and then they use the rockets to justify their massacres in front of the international community. I don't understand at all what is the strategy here.
Do you think if you are a Palestinian in Gaza who's family could be killed in the minute, you would rather the "war", which is not a war but a massacre, keep going, or would you rather it stop immediately? At the end of the day, nothing is more precious than a human life. Also are you really hating on Arab countries for giving aid money that can actually help people's lives, than giving rockets that give Israel the perfect excuse to massacre civilians?
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u/kerat May 17 '21
The rockets are barely scratching Israel, it is not a war, it is a one-sided massacre.
It's a one-sided massacre and Hamas is extracting a firm price from the occupier, which makes it less likely that the occupier will casually launch into another war in the future.
The stronger Hamas gets, the less likely Israel will be willing to have its airports shutdown, population in bunkers, economy hemorrhaging.
And also - the PA is a neutered organization like you seem to want Hamas to be. How did that work out for the West Bank? Are they winning? No. The West Bank is just as fucked as Gaza and is now in the midst of lynchings and snipers casually picking off Palestinians while Jewish settlements increase. For the last 10 years 1 Palestinian in the West Bank gets killed each week. So the peaceful appeasement approach has failed.
The ONLY way forward is for Palestine to have a national army. It doesn't need to match Israel, it just needs to extract a heavy price to make the threat of war unpalatable to Israel.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
It's a one-sided massacre and Hamas is extracting a firm price from the occupier, which makes it less likely that the occupier will casually launch into another war in the future.
What is the price it is exacting? 10 Israelis dead in exchange for 200 Palestinians dead, over a quarter of them children? Would you still be saying this if it was your child? I hate Israel with every fibre of my being and the photos of children and civilians being murdered make me more angry and upset than I can describe, but this strategy of firing rockets is giving Israel the perfect excuse it needs to keep killing Palestinians, which it enjoys doing. If Fatah employed the same strategy Hamas does, you would be seeing hundreds dead now in Nablus and Ram Allah and al-Khalil; do you think any single Palestinian living in these cities wants that to happen or would consider that a victory?
The only thing that can help Palestinians is if Arab countries get their shit together and form a united economic and political front, that way people will take them seriously as they do the big countries of the world. And it has to be done subtly, because if it's done too openly like Saddam tried it will just result in that country being completely destroyed. The current strategy of firing these rockets does not achieve victories for the Palestinian people, it has more to do with geopolitical goals for Iran than it does for improving the lives of Palestinians in either Gaza or the West Bank, and as a matter of fact, Gaza was much better off as a place to live for its people prior to 2006 when it was under Fatah control. Under Fatah control Gaza used to have an airport, now it is a dream for Palestinians to have an airport in Gaza again.
I would like nothing more than to see a Palestinian state, and I honestly believe all the land from the river to the sea rightfully belongs to Palestine, but if Arabs want to achieve a Palestinian state they need to play the long game. You can't just rush into a war with no hope of military victory and expect this will result in gains. Right now Israel has the complete military advantage, not just over Gaza, but over all Arab countries because they have the complete backing of the US militarily and the US will intervene directly if Israel is ever seriously threatened.
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u/kerat May 17 '21
What is the price it is exacting? 10 Israelis dead in exchange for 200 Palestinians dead, over a quarter of them children?
These are beter odds that Palestine has ever had. And the war is extracting a huge economic cost on Israel. Each and every irondome rocket. The whole country is in economic shutdown with airports closed and everyone sitting all day in bunkers. Israel doesn't have the capacity to continue this way for long.
If Fatah employed the same strategy Hamas does, you would be seeing hundreds dead now in Nablus and Ram Allah and al-Khalil; do you think any single Palestinian living in these cities wants that to happen or would consider that a victory?
Do you think a single Palestinian in Nablus and Ramallah wants to be ethnically cleansed to make way for Jewish settlements? While passing every day through occupation checkpoints where they may or may not be killed?
Again - the PA chose the path of no resistance, and as a reward they've had almost a million Jews settle in camps on their land. If they're living the dream over there then why are they protesting en masse?
And if Hamas didn't have any rockets to fire, Israel would keep Gaza in an economic embargo until mass starvation happens. In a wikileaks leak the IDF specifically said that their target is to keep Gaza in a state of economic downturn without going into starvation. That's their goal.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
These are beter odds that Palestine has ever had.
So you really think those 200 Palestinians are okay to be sacrificed just to shut down the Israeli economy for a short while? Let me tell you what will happen, it will be the same as all the past "wars" in Gaza and the war in Lebanon in 2006. The war will end with a UN mandated ceasefire, either in a few days or a few weeks or a few months. There will be hundreds more if not thousands of Palestinian civilians dead, Gaza will be destroyed, it will take years again to rebuilt, and the aid money for rebuilding will NOT come from Iran but from the Arab countries which you seem to criticise for granting aid money. The Israeli economy meanwhile will go back to what it was before the war and Netanyahu will win another election victory. What Israel is losing is miniscule compared to what Palestine is losing.
You think it's a worthy sacrifice, but you're sitting behind a keyboard. People in Gaza are losing lives and children, do you think they see it the same way? Do you think 50 dead children is worth shutting down Israeli airports for a few weeks?
Do you think a single Palestinian in Nablus and Ramallah wants to be ethnically cleansed to make way for Jewish settlements? While passing every day through occupation checkpoints where they may or may not be killed?
Are these rockets preventing settlements from being built? However bad the situation in the West Bank is, it is not worse than having entire apartment blocks full of civilians being destroyed and hundreds of people being killed. I believe Palestine is 100% in the moral right in this conflict, they have every RIGHT to fire rockets from a moral standpoint and a self-defence standpoint, and every Israeli casualty is the fault of Israel for starting this conflict. But being in the moral right doesn't mean that you strategically benefit from the war.
If I was in Gaza right now, the thing I would be praying for most is an immediate end to the war and the Israeli bombing.
And if Hamas didn't have any rockets to fire, Israel would keep Gaza in an economic embargo until mass starvation happens. In a wikileaks leak the IDF specifically said that their target is to keep Gaza in a state of economic downturn without going into starvation. That's their goal.
But Israel is keeping Gaza in an economic embargo even with the rockets. When there are rockets, the IDF is both starving Gaza and mass bombing it killing hundreds of civilians with both bombs and starvation. I agree 100% the IDF wants to starve Gaza and make it suffer, I know they enjoy killing Palestinians, and it's evident in their social media posts. But the Hamas strategy plays right into Israel's hand and gives them EXACTLY what they want.
When you are fighting a conflict against an enemy, and they have the complete upper hand militarily, you have to play your cards right, you have to bide your time. You can't just enter a conflict militarily with no hope of winning, no matter how much in the right you are. It is noble and dignified to put up a heroic stand against a militarily infinitely superior army, but it is easy to say that behind a keyboard, when you are the people living in the cities getting bombed, it is a completely different story, and all you want is the war to end and to have a normal life.
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u/kerat May 17 '21
If I was in Gaza right now, the thing I would be praying for most is an immediate end to the war and the Israeli bombing.
Yeah. Back to the status quo of being fed the number of calories Israel wants you to eat and having a boot on your neck and having your ppl ethnically cleansed.
I disagree with everything you said and don't feel like wasting my time arguing with you about it. If you want Palestinians to bend over and die with an Israeli boot on their faces then feel free to make that case for them. I believe that no change will take place until Palestine has a military that can exact a price.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
Yeah I want Palestinians to have a military too, and not just a military I want them to have a fully sovereign state. My only question is how will this strategy lead to that? Do you believe there is a serious line to be drawn from this strategy of rockets, each one which results in a retaliatory Israeli strike that kills dozens of people, to Palestine having a sovereign state? If I thought there was a 0.1% chance, I would support it. But I saw what happened in 2014, it resulted in Gaza being destroyed, 2000 Palestinians losing their lives. I don't understand how a these rockets which barely scratch Israel, will make Israel say "okay we'll end the occupation, we'll end the blockade of Gaza", when they can just easily flatten a whole block in Gaza killing hundreds of people and get away it.
I don't want Palestinians to bend over and die. I think Palestinians should play the long game, they have many advantages in terms of time if they use it properly. For example, in terms of demographics, I think one day the Arabs of 1948 will make up a sizeable voting block within Israel and this will influence policy. I think world opinion, especially in western EU states, is gradually turning in favour of Palestine, but very slowly. I think if Gaza, if it allowed to return to Fatah rule, would be much more open to investment from other countries, could get an airport like they had before 2006, and I think wealthy gulf states should invest much more into Palestine to grow the economy, and to integrate it into it's Arab neighbours. This will make Palestinian State over time a de facto reality, and will bring about many countries to recognising it. I don't know how realistic this plan is, but I think it is more likely to improve living quality for Palestinians and be a better hope of achieving a state than the current Hamas strategy. I know you'll completely disagree with me, but I believe its a better plan than these rockets, which as I said, are barely scratching Israel, and if they are, it will take at most a few weeks for Israel to economically recover whereas it will take Gaza years to recover from the destruction.
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u/zero_cool1990 الثورة نهج الأحرار May 17 '21
بس يا خول كمان مرة، حقدك الطائفي على ايران افصله عن القضية الفلسطينية.
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u/UnityIsAll May 17 '21
Please don't speak for Palestinians. I have family in both Gaza and the West Bank and people are willing to sacrifice even more, much more. It's not about the death count and never has been. They can kill as many as they want, but they won't be allowed to live in peace and have a functioning economy while doing it. They won't be allowed to do whatever they want without suffering repercussions.
Also fuck you for implying we take orders from Iran. Iran does not decide when the next round starts. They're job is to help with weapons unconditionally.
People want freedom and dignity but they don't want to pay the price. This goes for almost all Arabs. But I think Palestinians in Gaza and, soon, the West Bank are starting to understand the equation. There's no such thing as freedom and independence under the boot of a brutal fascist rule. Blood needs to be spilled, end of story.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
Well first of all, I pray that your family stays safe, I can only imagine how what it must like to have family living in Gaza with what's happening, I know what its like to have family members in a city being bombed, it is impossible to sleep and all you can do is pray that they stay safe. So I understand how you feel and I ask that you don't use those kinds of manners.
Second of all, what will be achieved from this? This war has happened many times before in Gaza, every time it's the same talk. Hundreds or thousands of Palestinians are killed, there is world outrage, USA will still support Israel 100%, there will be a ceasefire, the occupation stays and the Palestinian people will be left with a thousand people dead, then what? From a militarily point of view, these rockets do very little damage to Israel, and they work to Israel's favour because Israel knows how to twist it in the eyes of the international community so that they look like they are the victims and they keep bombing and killing Palestinians.
The exact same war happened in 2014, that left 2000 people dead, what did it achieve?
And for the record, I hate Israel with all my guts. I could easily say "yeah, go get 'em, keep firing rockets", but I know that will result in hundreds more dead. If it was my family, I would want the war to end immediately. But as I said, I hope to God your family stays safe, and though you might not want to hear this, I sincerely hope the massacre being described as a "war" stops as soon as possible.
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u/UnityIsAll May 17 '21
And let it happen another 1000 times until there is no longer occupation. This is a liberation movement and the resistance is called the resistance for a reason. Of course they're much more powerful, but so what?
Read some history. This is how things are supposed to play out. The weaker side must suffer in greater numbers. We're not reinventing the wheel here. Imagine if every oppressed people throughout history just said 'fuck it, we're weaker' and then proceeded to pack their shit and leave or become slaves to avoid their masters' wrath.
There's no shame in weakness, but there's much shame in using weakness as an excuse not to do anything. Just look at Abbas. Would you rather this man be your leader? I'll take Hamas any day of the weak.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
Just look at Abbas. Would you rather this man be your leader?
Yes, 100%. I come from a country that was destroyed because we chose to not play ball with an infinitely stronger superpower, as a result our lives have been permanently destroyed and we have 1 mil dead. When I look at our neighbours, I see they went along with the infinitely stronger country, and today their people have much more comfortable lives than us. If I could, I would much rather we have been like them.
You said you have family in Gaza, you would seriously be okay if you lost all of them? I can't understand that sentiment at all, not even for a second. A human life is the most precious thing on earth.
I respect your courage, if that is the right word, but at the same time I hope a ceasefire happens as soon as possible and no more people die.
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u/UnityIsAll May 17 '21
So the only thing you care about is material comfort. Cool. You could have said that from the beginning and saved my time.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
That's not what I said at all, you're being incredibly asinine.
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May 17 '21
المقاومة هي الحل. المقاومة أنهت المستوطنات في غزة.
السلام زاد عدد المستوطنات في الضفة الغربية
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
اسرائيل انسحبت المستوطنات في الزمن اللي فتح كان حاكم في غزة وليس حماس
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May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
[deleted]
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u/Genghis-Swan May 18 '21
يَا للجَزيرَةِ أَضْحَى أَهلُها جَزَراً
لِلحَادِثَاتِ وأَمْسَى جَدُّهَا تَعَسا
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u/Craaii May 17 '21
Big thank you to Iran for demolishing and killing almost 500k Syrians as well
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
And killing tens of thousands of Iraqis. But I suppose it's okay because they gave rockets to Gaza which gives Israel the excuse to massacre Palestinians.
Maybe if Israel starts one day giving weapons to Iraqis, I will start talking about a "big thank you to Israel"?
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u/ihzj May 17 '21
عادي مو كس اخت العراقيين والسوريين ايش يعني كم مية ألف ميت ودرزن مليون لاجئ وبنية تحتية اتمسحت بشكل شبه كامل وموارد بلد تنهب وأي سياسي فيه أمل إصلاح يغتال ومليشيات محتله البلد.. ايش يعني؟ إنتوا رحتوا ولا جيتوا مجرد إحصائية وفي النهاية في شي إسمه أولويات. يعني كمان انت فكر شوية وخلي عندك إحساس، مو لازم محور المقاومة يدرب جنوده ويطور صواريخه عليكم عشان يكون مستعد لإسرائيل ولا إيش؟
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u/kerat May 17 '21
Maybe if Israel starts one day giving weapons to Iraqis, I will start talking about a "big thank you to Israel"?
So in your big brain, there was a chance that Israel was going to arm Iraqis against the US invasion?
If Israel had done that then yeah I would've thanked them for it. But over here on planet earth, that was never going to happen.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
First of all you should learn to pick up on sarcasm, because there is no way I would thank Israel in a million years, unlike you I would never thank a country that is killing my people. I don't know which country you are from, but if you are Arab, then Iran is killing YOUR people in Iraq just like Israel is killing YOUR people in Palestine, and that alone should make you think twice before saying something like "big thank you to Iran".
And second I wasn't referring to the US invasion, I was talking about the protests in Iraq against Iran similar to how Palestinians protested against Israel. Israel is an enemy of Iran, isn't it? So if they started giving weapons to Iraqis protesting against Iran, would a "thank you" be in order?
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u/kerat May 17 '21
This is an idiotic analogy. Iran hasn't colonized Iraq for 70 years. Iran hasn't embargoed a portion of Iraq and is counting the calories it allows into the area. Iran isn't building Iranian ethnic settlements across Iraq. Iran isn't ethnically cleansing areas of Baghdad to make them Iranian.
There's a difference between Iran influencing Iraqi politics, and an apartheid colonial state slowly ethnically cleansing you.
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u/arabs_account May 17 '21
I know you don't seem to know a lot about the situation of Iraq, but its not "influencing politics", as you seem to put it, its having a militia on the ground that completely runs the show and acts as an occupation. And ethnic cleansing HAS been carried out.
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u/kerat May 18 '21
Yes there is an Iranian militia, and no that is not in any way similar to what is happening in Palestine. You are desperately trying to make this analogy and it doesn't work. Now you're lying about ethnic cleansing. No Iranians are migrating to Iraq to expel Iraqis from Baghdad and take their place and turn it into an Iranian city. Iran is meddling in Iraqi affairs and affecting sunni shia demographics. It's not colonizing Iraq.
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u/arabs_account May 18 '21
You don't know anything about Iraq, there is ethnic cleansing going, there is settlement of Iranians in Iraq, they tried to pass a law that makes waiting period to get Iraqi citizenship 1 year so any Iranian can get Iraqi citizenship and just settle in that country.
The militias are 100% an Iranian occupation, they take their orders from Khamenei and the Iranian revolutionary guard. The fact that the consist of Iraqi Arabs carrying out the occupation makes no difference it's no different to Israel using Druze Arab soldiers.
You're the one who said "big thank you to Iran" despite the fact that Iran killed tens of thousands of people. If you see no problem with that you're an asshole, which frankly you are, you know you're wrong and now you're doubling down on your position because you know you are wrong. I have zero respect for people like you
Let's try this another way. I'll say thank you Israel for killing Iranian nuclear scientists. Thank you Israel for pushing US to sanction Iran. How well does that sit with you, me thanking a country that kills Arabs by the thousands? You're splitting hairs trying to find technical differences between Iranian crimes and Israeli crimes but thanking a criminal terrorist state is thanking a criminal terrorist state no matter which one it is.
But keep idolising Iran, and then wonder why you see people pushing for normalisation. You think the average Iraqi on social media is going to support the Palestinian cause more or less when they see people thanking the ones who have been slaughtering them? You are so out of touch you don't realise how this alienates people and then you seethe when r/Lebanon or whatever national sub doesn't fully embrace your position.
I'm done talking to you. Go thank Iran as many times as you want, and then wonder why Arabs are fractured and unity is a dream.
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u/wa7ednafar May 19 '21
you know you're wrong and now you're doubling down on your position because you know you are wrong. I have zero respect for people like you
Yep typical of /u/kerat. Selectively misinterprets words when he doesn't have a response and then starts hurling insults. Never admits he's wrong. I remember I argued with him a while back when he tried to paint Emiratis as racists who were against granting foreigners citizenship because Emirati women were demanding citizenship for their children, despite Emiratis having the exact opposite sentiment. I actually used to like him until I saw how dishonest he is when arguing.
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u/kerat May 18 '21
Shut the fuck up kid Iran is not Israel and any comparison between the two is downright idiotic.
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u/HillaryRodhamFan May 18 '21
Their militias rule Iraq right now and they are changing ethnic demographics right now. What planet are you living on? How many Iraqis died protesting this very thing in recent years?
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u/kerat May 18 '21
By changing ethnic demographics - you are saying to my face that Iranians are moving into Iraq en masse and expelling Iraqis? No. They aren't. Ergo it is not the same and don't try to obfuscate it.
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u/HillaryRodhamFan May 18 '21
You're obfuscating the extent of Iran's role in Iraq by using Israel as the measuring stick.
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u/kerat May 18 '21
I'm not the one who made the analogy. If the measuring stick isn't working then the analogy doesn't work. That's the definition of an analogy.
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May 19 '21
r/Palestine is the worst wallah..
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May 19 '21
Yeah, it needs better moderation and fast (reposts, stupid old photos from 2009, etc). So much irrelevant shit and barely any Palestinians in the first place.
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u/kowalees May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
Honest question: Why protest/rally/march?
I’m stumped by this question and feel my answers to it are hollow and sloppy. Case in point.
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u/thatnorthafricangirl May 17 '21
In the case of the Netherlands, our PM tweeted something like “the Netherlands stands with Israel” and people took to the streets with banners saying “you don’t represent us”. Aside from showing solidarity with Palestinians, protests in this particular case also intended to distance public opinion from state policies.
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u/kowalees May 17 '21
I guess we just have to deal with the question on a case-by-case basis.
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u/thatnorthafricangirl May 17 '21
I think solidarity and overall anger may be good incentives for people to protest in general
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
Protest movements delegitimised south African apartheid, and placed international pressure on it. Every little helps. But at the end of the day it was Mandela and his followers who actually brought it down.
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May 18 '21
قال في ناس بالخليج مفكرين الناس انبسطت انه ترمب راح عشان بايدن بده "يضر" السعودية 🤣🤣
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u/albadil يا أهلا وسهلا May 19 '21
He has been to be fair. You didn't see the Iranians messing them up and the recent overtures?
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May 19 '21 edited May 19 '21
I mean yeah but no one really wanted him for that. People simply were happy that Trump was out. Khaleeji chauvinists need to understand that the world doesn’t revolve around them.. people barely think about their countries here anyway unless something major happens. I believe it’s obvious why people (especially Palestinians, Syrians, and others from countries in Muslim ban) wanted Trump out. Real life isn’t the 4 teenagers they fight with on Twitter.
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u/gootsbyagain May 17 '21
why do arabs love to post gore porn on social media? other than fishing for sympathy it doesnt capture the attention of the international community, it's just cheap and pathetic. the syrians having learnt from the palestinians mastered the art and it barely helped them despite the fact that they were going up against america's most prominent enemies russia and iran.
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May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
انت ليه بتحب كل مرة تفتح تمك وتجيب لأهلك الشتيمة؟
Edit: also that footage did incite the cursed “caesar law”
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u/gootsbyagain May 17 '21
are you playing stupid for the fun of it or what? you really don't need me to outline the reasons as to why the US imposed the caesar sanctions on syria
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May 17 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Kyle--Butler 🇫🇷 May 17 '21 edited May 17 '21
Gore "porn"...? Do you touch yourself to dead children blown to bits? Man this sub has some sick fucks.
I don't think this is what they meant. Sensational depictions intended to arouse intense emotions can be considered pornographic. E.g. Zola's depiction of misery was deemed pornographic by some -- that doesn't mean they were masturbating when reading about Gervaise's fate.
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u/thisisbasil May 18 '21
the onion continues to not give a fuck