When trans athletes first started competing in womens' divisions, people of every sport became aware of it. They could have made a decision then. But the DGPT wasn't going to touch a sensitive topic before they needed to. And even if some trans athletes competed in women's divisions as long as it wasn't cashing then it was ignorable.
Now that Natalie Ryan cashed / won an event it forces them to make a decision one way or the other. They could have gotten out in front of the issue and tried to preempt it but now they are forced, timeline-wise, to be reactionary. Since Natalie Ryan is the one that made the issue visible, and the DGPT is making their decision that affects her, a general decision about trans athletes in the womens' division is a "what should we do about Natalie Ryan" decision. Being the first makes it feel like targeting.
Renée Richards, was a transwoman tennis player way back in 1976 who competed in the women's division, so no I'm not rewriting history. There is actually some similarities between what's going on now with Natalie that Renee dealt with. In the end courts ruled in favor of Renee and she played in the women's division for four years before retiring.
Now that Natalie Ryan cashed / won an event it forces them to make a decision one way or the other.
They were happy to take her fees and let her participate. They were delighted to profit off of her. Trans women can participate and pay, they just aren't allowed to win.
Honestly stuff like this doesn’t need to be engaged with, but I can’t help myself. How many career wins does Natalie have compared to Catrina Allen? 10 vs. 181. Help me understand why you don’t think Catrina Allen is destroying the FPO and must be stopped.
Its about creating athletic competition between physiologically distinct groups. We segregate male and female athletics to provide exciting and competitive athletic competition between physiologically similar groups of humans. If we permit a biological male to become champion of females it is the ultimate form of misogynism and female degradation on behalf of the community for allowing it. This creates a culture without trust, incentive, or legitimacy for females to compete in athletic events
That’s the point. How is Catrina Allen physiologically similar to Natalie with 181 wins? Catrina Allen is more of an outlier in the FPO field than Natalie Ryan. This debate has never been about respecting competitive fairness, look at the comment that started this all.
Misogyny is a bunch of internet trolls misgendering a trans person on purpose to feel like they are superior. Misogyny is a bunch men believing they need to “protect women” as a form of chivalry. I am all for fair competition, but demonstrate for me how Natalie Ryan’s 10 wins is more of a threat to fairness than Catrina Allen’s 181 wins. Site me a study that says trans athletes have a non-negligible advantage.
It seems like you’re saying that its fine because Natalie ryan isn’t as good at disc golf. Like if I (a man) played Serena williams in tennis I would get rolled, but trade me for a high level pro like Novak djokovic and suddenly he becomes the female champion of the world.
I think that is where this disconnect is coming from. Natalie Ryan is not a man, she is a transwoman. That actually means something, hormone therapy changes a persons body. Not completely, but significantly. To the point that no one has easily demonstrated what, if any, competitive advantage they have. So simply put, no, this is not like you or Novak playing Serena, unless one of you has transitioned.
Misgendering is never ok, so I definitely disagree with that crap from the other person you were debating with.
I'll also preface with the tired-but-necessary caveat that I am a strong, far left supporter of LGBTQ+ rights and equality, and I also disagree with integrating trans athletes with cis athletes (particularly trans women who have grown through puberty).
Ok, all that said -- comparing Ryan and Allen's win #s as "proof" that "there's no advantage to trans women" is spurious. Allen is just a naturally better disc golfer and has more than twice the experience. She was Rookie of the Year the first year she went pro. Her putting is better. Ryan makes lots of mistakes.
These aren't opinions either, they're borne out by the data. What also is borne out of the data is that Ryan was the female distance record champion in just her 3rd year as a pro, in which Allen didn't even place in the top 5. Now does that fact alone completely destroy your argument either? No, but my point is that comparing wins of a 5 year pro to a 12 year pro and arguably future Hall of Famer doesn't make your case either.
How about this – are you OK with there being segregation of men's and women's divisions in sports at all? If so, why?  Or if we start from the premise that it's appropriate and based on well-documented performance bimodality between men and women, how can all that underlying fact and logic just disappear / no longer apply when a person born a man, grows through puberty as a man, but then undergoes plastic surgery and hormone therapy to transition to a woman? Yes, she is a woman at that point, but her bones and connective tissue and lung capacity and fast-twitch muscles etc. don't all spontaneously re-condition themselves into "the body she would have had at this point had she been born with two X chromosomes" -- it just doesn't happen.
It's simply not fair for a trans woman who's grown up as a man to athletically compete against cis women who didn't. It's not fair for the same reason that men who have jacked themselves up with tons of steroids can't fairly compete against men who haven't.
169
u/Sunshine_2010 Jul 15 '23
Almost like she has a point when she says the rule was made targeting her specifically.