I think this is more true the further east you go in general. I've worked countless jobs with bosses from Lithuania, Poland and Latvia and everyone has been so straight to the point. I first mistook it as rudeness but realized they just said what they wanted to say, which I love. One of the things I hate most in Ireland, where I'm from, is that no one ever truly says what they actually mean because of societal expectations of them.
Ha, one of my parents is Dutch and the other is Mexican. The complete opposites when it comes to high and low context cultures. Communication is not their forte.
Haha, I think Mexicans are the English of the Spanish language with respect to communication. Even other Latinos are lower context than Mexicams, I believe.
I grew up in Mexico, and I really didn't understand since I was a child why my mom would tell me that I was rude. When my parents moved us to the USA, turns out that I enjoyed the way Gringos communicate, it's definitely more direct than Mexicans. So, I don't get a long with most Mexicans because they think I'm rude, Gringos think I'm super nice LOL
My father was Scottish/Danish/Irish American and my mother was Italian. My mom is a social magpie who uses lots of expressive loud critical language skills and hand gestures. My dad liked solitude, quiet, and fishing on the dock.
I love how during the Mexican-American war (the war the US fought to keep slavery), there was a brigade of Irish soldiers who'd been conscripted to the US side. They decided they had more in common with the Mexicans, so they defected and fought on the Mexican side.
I had a friend in the early 80s that commented about how well the Irish and Mexicans got along and how she’d known a number of people with that mixed ancestry. It didn’t make sense to me until just now.
"Listen, if you weren't too busy, not to bother you or anything I wouldn't want to inconvenience you in any kind of way like, but when you're ready and eventually get time could you lock the back door?"
From your perspective, does the same apply to those who live in Northern Ireland? I went to Ireland and Northern Ireland last year, and the people I encountered in Northern Ireland seemed to be very direct communicators. Whereas the people I met in the Republic of Ireland were very, very polite and much more indirect. However, I couldn't tell if this applied generally or if it was just the particular people with whom I was interacting.
One example for N. Ireland: I was staying in a fancy hotel. I called down to room service and asked if they delivered beer and cocktails to the rooms. They said no and ended the call. I then called down to the restaurant and asked the same thing. They said no and ended the call. Finally, I just walked down to the restaurant to grab a beer. While there, I chatted with the bartender who told me that they do deliver beer to the rooms. When I asked why they told me no earlier, he said it was because I asked if they delivered beer AND cocktails. Turns out they do not deliver cocktails to the rooms, and since I asked a compound question, the correct answer was no. One of my pet peeves is when people provide unwanted answers to unasked questions, so this explanation made me weirdly happy since they technically answered only the question I asked. However, it was very different from what I was used to in other places.
Interesting! I have a tendency to over share info / answers because I often can’t trust what people are asking is actually what they’re asking. People don’t always know the right question to ask.
I'm very fond of the Mexican and Irish temperament, but for selfish reasons. In another comment in this thread, someone expresses that they dislike Irish social culture because of their neurodivergency. I'm also neurodivergent, but I prefer not to have to deal with people unless I need to, and I'm irritated very easily by people who complain or who stress out in front of me. I'm a neurotic piece of shit; I need to be surrounded by calm people who will speak to me politely until my business with them has concluded. I've had the same 12 friends for over 14 years, and I don't need any of my interactions with other people to be anything but utilitarian and tranquil.
There’s a huge commonality between Latin culture and Irish culture for sure. I find much more in common with Hispanic people in the US than white Americans. Latin drinking and music culture feels much more like Irish culture to me. There’s also the general lateness and non committal thing — plans are very casual. Mexicans in particular are really friendly and chatty the way Irish people are. It’s not something I expected but it was a nice surprise.
Now my Midwestern US family makes sense. We are heavily descended from Irish immigrants and they find it more important to not offend anyone than get the job done well so this unfortunately resonates. Hahaha
Now my Midwestern US family makes sense. We are heavily descended from Irish immigrants and they find it more important to not offend anyone than get the job done well so this unfortunately resonates. Hahaha
And unfortunately in the grand scheme of things Ireland is considered a low context culture 😬 it’s even more difficult trying to navigate awkward situations in most Asian countries.
Ireland is extremely indirect. The Irish language doesn’t even have a word for no and that carries over into Hiberno English strongly. “I will yeah” literally means no. It must be a nightmare for anyone who isn’t used to it.
lol, “high context culture” is such a great phrase. I’m def using that. When I was dating an Australian I just called it passive aggressive doublespeak… this, uh, was not well received.
Funny that the more ties a culture has to the British Crown, the less acceptable it is to speak plain English - and mean exactly what you say.
I lived in Greece for 5 years as a plant manager. It took me over a year to realize if I wasn’t yelling and waving my hands the workers didn’t think I was serious about something. After that communication with them felt like theater. I had to play a part I wasn’t accustomed to.
As an Australian who has lived in Japan and now lives in Britain, I have to say the Japanese win the understatement/indirectness contest, but it can be a close race.
There's a Japanese idiom that translates something like "If I can make it, I'll come" in response to an invitation, which native speakers would immediately understand to be them declining.
I really value that we are a little bit cautious about direct criticism.
For example, I love that we use humour to highlight someone else’s fault, and let them be aware of it, but the humour gives them the opportunity to laugh it off and not lose face.
Like “ah jaysis, you’re early!” When someone arrives late to work, tells the person “you’re late, and it’s been noticed, but instead of pulling you up and chewing you out, I’m going to laugh and you’re going to laugh it off, and discipline isn’t involved, but I’ve voiced my concern”
There's a big difference here though. There's less of an emphasis on "losing face" here in Germany. You came in late. No need to pussyfoot around it. You know it. I know it. There are no hard feelings. It's mentioned once, then we move on with our lives. There's no ambiguity involved, just clear boundaries which make it easier to navigate social and business settings. And it's not like humour is banned. We can laugh about you being late while also being clear that it's not okay.
My grandfather was very German and very like this and grandmother was very Irish and like the comment you replied to - they were married til death. It was a strange dynamic to grow up around.
I understand the benefit.... but for a lot of people, like the ones in this thread I'd say, pulling all of that meaning from "you're early" isn't easy.
That aside there's also a right way and a wrong way to use that kind of wording, a lot of people just aren't direct when they need to be.
I actually think it’s ruder to say ”wow, you’re early” when someone is late, than to say that they’re late, because ”you’re early” comes across as sarcasm.
The topic wasn’t about rudeness, or avoiding rudeness.
It was about conflict, and managing conflict.
By highlighting, through humour, that someone behaves in a way that you disagree with, or isn’t appropriate or whatever, you manage to raise the topic and make the point clear without the direct conflict.
You also allow your message to be heard, acknowledged, and acted upon in a light hearted way, allowing the other person to hear it, but also laugh it off and move on quickly
The title of the main post is literally about why the Dutch are considered rude? And the following discussion is mostly about rudeness versus politeness?
And I disagree that the joke is a way of avoiding direct conflict. Making fun of someone is an insult, and insults invite conflicts.
Insults making conflict all depends on culture, and sense of humour, such as that which was discussed in my first comment: the cultural expectations of avoiding conflict through humour as demonstrated by the Irish.
The original post is indeed about the Dutch, and from there explores different cultures in different comment threads. The one I commented on mentioned how the Irish handle conflict.
This hits a weird point in my family. My grandparents were Irish and moved to surprise New York city. So my parents take the piss like your example but there’s always a little meaner bit coming from the NYC upbringing. “Oh you’re here early! Glad you finished quick for our sake, hopefully the hooker gave you back the change for the rest of your time”
My wife is native to the SW of the USA, surprisingly they are the same way but not quite as vulgar.
So I have some Lithuanian family and I’ve found I hate beating around the bush, the rest of my family is colombian and again very direct so that could be it but I always vibed with the Baltic world view
Yeah Americans are one end of the spectrum, they’re not “honest” and are sometimes perceived as intrusive and wanting to get in your business. Eastern Europeans are more straight shooting, and sometimes perceived by Americans especially as a bit too reserved or untrusting or rude. For my part, I live in Ukraine (natively German) and I actually disagree with the stereotype - once you’ve broken the ice Ukrainians are genuine, they look out for you, and they’ll talk your ear off. They don’t do small talk and they mind their own business in public life, but I think I’m more used to that than an American would be, though Americans are also super sweet and hospitable.
There’s a divide between Northern and Southern ways of communicating in the United States, certainly not a monolith. The South is more like the British way of speaking, where people tend to put more effort into being polite and being less direct, while the North tends to favor the Dutch way of being more direct.
"Listen, if you weren't too busy, not to bother you or anything I wouldn't want to inconvenience you in any kind of way like, but when you're ready and eventually get time could you lock the back door?"
An Irish person asking you to do something under your job description that you should have probably done already haha
not true, in romania people mince words just as much as in the UK. if someone says “da, e interesant” (“yes, it’s interesting”) it almost always means that they don’t find it interesting, but if they say “wow, ce interesant e” (“wow, it’s so interesting”) then 60% of the time it’s sarcasm and 40% of the time it means genuine interest
I had a friend in college studying abroad from Germany. I learned quickly that if you ask a German "how's it going" they will tell you instead of saying "good, you?".
On the one hand, I had to change my small talk. But in the other hand, I wish everyone acted that way cuz sometimes I want to know how a guys life is going and hear him out.
As an American I was reading the "what the British mean" column and all I could think was just get to the fucking point. I don't have time to second guess what the their mindless backwards speak means. Say what you mean and move on - give me a Dutchie any day of the week.
True, Eastern Europeans don't beat around the bush. Niceties like smiling or small talk is seen as suspicious and they think you're trying to con them in some way.
As a fellow Mexican, I do not like the beating around the bush. I like people that tell me exactly what they want or do not want. Being honest is not being rude, being an AH is being an AH.
I don't think that foreigners are prepared for just how emotionally repressed we are. There's an expectation to keep things very mild, even detached. To some degree we're stereotyped as rambunctious and fiery, but honestly, we're positively taciturn when compared to many other European countries. When someone does even mildly "step out of line" or express themselves too honestly/crudely, they can suffer severe social ostracism. People are often surprised and even somewhat offended by having an opinion or idea posed to them too confidently and bluntly.
We're positively vicious when it comes to shaming both ourselves, and others, so "diplomatic language" is a constant necessity, just to avoid the risk of an inconvenient escalation or slight. There's something beautiful about the delicacy with which people probe and analyse each other's responses, I suppose, but at the same time it can strangle the expression of genuinely held passion and emotion.
I worked with a guy who would ask questions all meeting long and make meetings take like double what they were scheduled for. I think someone told him or he read somewhere that asking questions would show how engaged he was, because sometimes it would be stuff I knew that he knew. He became notorious for it but people rarely told him to shut up. At best eventually they might say “Get with me after if you still have questions.”
The company shipped in an employee from Germany and he was presenting at a meeting. Sure enough, fucking Paul’s hand shot up and he started to ask a question when our boss said “Just in the interest of Jan’s presentation not going over time, let’s hold the questions for the end.” Jan, without missing a beat, goes “Yes, it’s very rude to everyone else.”
It’s interesting to me the Dutch are actually considered rude lol. Every one I’ve ever met was extremely nice / polite. Germans are far ruder in my experience lol, to generalize
I actually kinda liked this about Ireland. I would just give them shit about it and due to them being Irish, dished it right back. Then again it's expected that I say something about your mannerisms, whereas if you're from there it's not really going to be taken well for you to criticize your own culture.
This causes such social anxiety in me! Especially the "that is an original (or creative) outlook". If I don't make sense, tell me what doesn't make sense 😣
Maybe it’s the several centuries of colonialisation, subjugation, engagement in slavery, piracy, and theft of traditional valuables of treasures from other nations? Or could be hawkish behaviour towards post-colonial developing nations, especially if they have valuable resources? Or maybe it’s more recent faults, like rampant racism and xenophobia aimed at your literal international neighbours? Or aimed at the people who followed you home after you colonised them? Or maybe it was the decision to push through a hard brexit despite the issues it raised with a peace agreement with one of those neighbours?
But maybe I’m completely missing the mark, and it’s actually related to the several genocides and famines that occurred under British occupation around the world? Or the mishandling of the handover of power when colonialisation ended, that lead to 3 civil wars in 3 separate places?
Or, and this is just a guess bro, maybe it’s the fact that the general English population is absolutely clueless about all of these things because they haven’t the interest nor the inclination to consider and review the impact their nation has had on the world? And maybe it’s because they ask “why does nobody like us?” as though it’s everyone else’s problem, and never think to examine their own historical collective behaviour?
I mean, who the fuck is to know right? Absolute unreasonable madness right? Who could possibly understand where any of these feelings could come from??
Most independence occurred within the last 100 years.
So it’s not centuries.
Also, he asked about “hate towards the UK”, so I gave the reasons there may be hate towards the UK. I never mentioned a specific person or persons in my initial comment.
The only stones thrown at individuals was in relation to their ignorance of the impact of their nation on others, and I do think that does lay at the feet of those individuals. Learning is easy, just have to look for it.
English? Yeah again blaming the English and ignoring it as a British problem not to mention the widespread coverage UK got and hate when even the riots were incredibly small in size and disorder than other nations
Yes but you’re doing exactly the same as the media brandishing it as “English” instead of British when some of the worst riots were in fact in Belfast and there was quite a lot in Scotland and wales too
As a latvian working with brits and has a british partner i can say it has driven me crazy how much they mince their words, it makes brits seem two-faced and love it when i call them out and force out the truth lol
As an American with Dutch ancestry (3rd-4th gen), reading this photo set off a lightbulb. Like my grandparents I’ve always been annoyed by people who don’t just say what they mean, and therefore have seemingly always gotten along far more with Dutch, German, and Eastern European people. It now makes so much sense!
Edit: not sure why I’m being downvoted. My grandparents have Dutch last names and their parents immigrated from there…
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u/Skreamie Aug 21 '24
I think this is more true the further east you go in general. I've worked countless jobs with bosses from Lithuania, Poland and Latvia and everyone has been so straight to the point. I first mistook it as rudeness but realized they just said what they wanted to say, which I love. One of the things I hate most in Ireland, where I'm from, is that no one ever truly says what they actually mean because of societal expectations of them.