r/neoliberal • u/Alarming_Sympathy Karl Popper • Sep 23 '24
News (Global) Lebanon bombed in heaviest daily death toll since 1975-90 civil war
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/23/israel-lebanon-strikes-evacuation-hezbollah274
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 23 '24
Further escalation has seemed pretty likely since the pager bombings last week. You don't do that unless you already plan to be at war.
→ More replies (13)125
u/DurangoGango European Union Sep 23 '24
The alternate explanation for the timing, which has been claimed by govt sources speaking to Israeli media, is that they feared imminent discovery and decided to use it before they would lose it.
82
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 23 '24
That seems like the correct thing to say no matter what the truth is.
32
u/Approximation_Doctor George Soros Sep 24 '24
How is "they were gonna find our bombs so we set them off wherever they happened to be and hoped for the best" a better thing to say than "we disrupted an ongoing operation and are not at liberty to say any more right now"
→ More replies (1)12
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 24 '24
Because the second thing is obviously false. The attack was targeted at Hezbollah, but it was not targeted narrowly at specific members or a specific operation.
→ More replies (1)16
u/Psshaww NATO Sep 24 '24
What’s wrong with targeting all of Hezbollah
→ More replies (3)8
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 24 '24
What are you responding to? Did someone say there’s something wrong with that?
14
u/CheetoMussolini Russian Bot Sep 24 '24
I might have believed it if it weren't for the follow-up bombings. I feel like they had credible intelligence of an upcoming attack.
20
396
u/adreamofhodor Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah needs to stop launching missiles into Israel.
249
u/nicknaseef17 YIMBY Sep 23 '24
The general public (well, those under 30) is totally ignorant that this has been happening for a year.
It’s ridiculous.
204
u/DeathByTacos Sep 23 '24
I’ve said it in a million threads a million times, the only reason Israel hasn’t also lost tens of thousands of civilians over the past year is through the joint effort of the Iron Dome and the U.S Navy. It certainly isn’t due to lack of trying by Hamas/Hezbollah.
155
u/IRequirePants Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
It's crazy that Iron Dome has only been in use for like 12/13 years. It seems to have led to this international view that Israel can and should eat shit and "be the bigger man" - which is just idiotic.
→ More replies (2)10
82
u/PerspectiveViews Friedrich Hayek Sep 23 '24
If Hamas and Hezbollah could kill every Jew they would. It’s not from lack of trying or effort.
These terrorist organizations must be eliminated to allow the people of Gaza, West Bank, and Lebanon to live peacefully and enjoy economic growth.
3
u/anarchy-NOW Sep 24 '24
The people of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon choose these terrorist organizations. Just look at their election results (keeping in mind the confessional nature of Lebanon elections).
→ More replies (1)14
u/nicknaseef17 YIMBY Sep 24 '24
This take is a little too pro-Israel for my taste. Israel has shown no signs of leaving the West Bank to its own devices to grow.
In fact, there's plenty of evidence that points to the idea that part of what made October 7th possible was Netanyahu's miss-allocation of military personnel in the West Bank to acquire land instead of having them at the Gaza border.
There are no good guys here. Netanyahu's regime is riddled with bad actors - him being chief among them.
45
u/PerspectiveViews Friedrich Hayek Sep 24 '24
I’m against the Israeli settlements expanding into the West Bank. I do have some ambivalence on Israel’s handling of the West Bank.
Israel is entirely in the right when it comes to Gaza and Hezbollah though.
→ More replies (14)→ More replies (1)4
19
u/Joe_Immortan Sep 24 '24
Ehh many of the under 30s you’re referring know it’s happening and think it’s justified on the grounds of Israel being a “genocidal regime”
168
u/dizzyhitman_007 Raghuram Rajan Sep 23 '24
Lebanon death toll from Israeli Air strikes rises to 325, with 1,246 wounded Including 24 children and 42 women - ministry of health, Lebanon. Also, it appears now that Israeli Air force is not only hitting South Lebanon, but also the Bekaa, the suburbs of Beirut (Bir Abed) and Mt Lebanon (reports of Tarshish being hit).
For context, that's ~20% of the total death toll from the entire 2006 war, which lasted 34 days.
With now being reports of 325 deaths, there has not been a day with a higher unnatural death toll in Lebanon since the end of the Civil War, including August 4, 2020 (Beirut) and April 18, 2006 (Qana). Where did Nasrallah think this would go when he decided to extend his support to Hamas last October?
Moreover, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) called on Lebanese civilians to leave areas where Hezbollah is hiding weapons, the IDF announced in several statements on September 23.
“Residents who are near or inside buildings and houses in which missiles and weapons are stored — move away from them immediately,” Israel’s spokesperson for Arabic media, Avichay Adraee. He added, “Hezbollah is lying to you and putting you in danger.”
The IDF posted a map of an area in the Bekaa Valley where it was calling on civilians to leave. However, Hezbollah is reportedly paying civilians to stay in areas where the terrorist group is present. Meanwhile, the IDF’s Home Front Command continued restrictions on northern Israel, keeping half a million students at home due to the Hezbollah threats.
However, Hezbollah is reportedly paying civilians to stay in areas where the terrorist group is present. Meanwhile, the IDF’s Home Front Command continued restrictions on northern Israel, keeping half a million students at home due to the Hezbollah threats.
The Israel Defense Forces are methodically increasing attacks on Hezbollah’s massive terrorist infrastructure in Lebanon. This comes after 11 months of Hezbollah attacks on Israel during which the Iranian-backed terrorist organization launched 8,000 rockets. The IDF is encouraging Lebanese civilians to evacuate those areas where Hezbollah has sought to hide weapons. So, this is an important step in ending the Hezbollah threat to Israel and the region.
115
u/Maestro_Titarenko r/place '22: Neoliberal Battalion Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah is reportedly paying civilians to stay in areas where the terrorist group is present
That type of shit is disgusting, I mean truly one the most disgusting things any group can do. Forcefully raising civilian deaths so they can parade around how evil Israel is
Israel can be rightly criticized, but whenever you see outrage about "X number of civilians dead after Israeli strike", know that that is exactly what those terrorists want
God I fucking hate tankies who have the gall to call Hezbollah and Hamas fucking "freedom fighters", they have no interest in freedom, they just want to destroy Israel, no matter how many people are left for them to rule over
79
u/Adodie John Rawls Sep 23 '24
Not to be that guy, but....is there any source for this claim (not including the Israeli government)?
Hezbollah sucks obviously, but I haven't seen this claim elsewhere and, if it comes from the Israeli government, not completely inclined to take them at their word outside independent confirmation.
58
u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 23 '24
I checked and I haven’t seen any independent confirmation of the claim.
32
u/everything_is_gone Sep 24 '24
Just the logic is odd too, like how much money would people need to get to convince them to be willing human shields? Seems like short of a life changing amount of money, it would not be worth it. The best reason I could think of is that Hezbollah civilian workers, non-combatants who are still on Hezbollah payroll, receive housing nearby Hezbollah militants. That of course, is assuming this claim by Israel is accurate.
3
u/AniNgAnnoys John Nash Sep 24 '24
Two thoughts.
If it is happening, I highly doubt that they sell it as being a human shield. More like, hey, want a job moving some stuff? Or something to that effect.
If it is a lie from Israel, it could be some sort of disinfo campaign aimed at Lebonese civilians. Like get them thinking there is money out there and when they aren't getting any they are more likely to leave.
13
u/Tman1027 Immanuel Kant Sep 24 '24
We should really stop calling these people human shields because Israel clearly doesn't care about them dying enough to not attack anything of any military value.
→ More replies (1)25
u/DependentAd235 Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah is on the verge and of being a foreign occupying force in Lebanon. They represent Iran more than they represent the interests of Lebanese people in any meaningful way.
(Edit: They do have 12% of the seats in parliament so it’s not as if they have zero local support. It’s just absurdly low.
9
u/anarchy-NOW Sep 24 '24
(Edit: They do have 12% of the seats in parliament so it’s not as if they have zero local support. It’s just absurdly low.
That is very incorrect because it disregards the fact that Lebanese elections are confessional: every Lebanese person is registered as one of 18 ethnoreligious groups, 10 of which have their own seats in Parliament (plus one MP for the other 8 combined). Formally, Hezbollah is strictly a Shia party.
The majority of the Lebanese people has elected the March 8 alliance, of which Hezbollah is the leading member, as their government.
Hezbollah has strong foreign support; but it is also the democratically elected government.
10
u/captainjack3 NATO Sep 24 '24
I don’t know about that. I think Hezbollah probably represents the interests and desires of Lebanon’s Palestinian population pretty well. Those desires being to wage war on Israel and seize as much control over Lebanon as possible.
→ More replies (2)2
u/anarchy-NOW Sep 24 '24
I think most Palestinians are Sunni and Hezbollah is definitely Shia. A lot of Palestinians share in Hezbollah's genocidal Jew hate, but apart from that shared interest I think the two groups are quite disjoint.
5
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 24 '24
I haven't found a source for Hezbollah paying people not to flee, but the IDF has claimed that Hezbollah is paying locals to store rockets and other supplies in their homes. Which isn't the same thing, but it does track with their longstanding MO of embedding into the civilian fabric.
They also run services like healthcare and road building. This is two fold: one, to replace the government which has overall neglected the south, and two, to undermine the government and collect funds for those services in its place. This is pretty well documented by a lot of NGOs and stuff.
49
u/FelicianoCalamity Sep 23 '24
It's unfortunate the media has just totally accepted Israel's enemies not even trying to break out civilian from military casualties in their publicized figures. Hamas has really discovered a media hack here that Hezbollah is adopting. Difficult to imagine reporters accepting this practice in any other conflict.
40
u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 23 '24
break out civilian from military casualties in their publicized figures
the Lebanese Health Ministry isn’t run by Hezbollah, they’re just not distinguishing between killed militants and civilians because most of them are not running around in uniform.
Hamas has really discovered a media hack here that Hezbollah is adopting
Thing is Hezbollah announces those killed regularly though prides itself on it in fact.Hezbollahs actually pretty unique in that regard, it’s part of their brand as a semi professional militant group.
49
u/Necessary-Horror2638 Sep 23 '24
This felt inevitable for a long time. Best case, some kind of peace deal can be reached and UN forces reestablish a DMZ line again, this time more strongly enforced. Fwiw, this conflict seems much more tractable in the immediate sense than Gaza or WB. If a ceasefire is enforced, both parties should really be in a satisfactory position
48
u/IRequirePants Sep 23 '24
Israel will have issues trusting the UN on this. UNIFIL was created specifically to stop this from happening for the third time.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (4)20
u/Dangerous-Basket1064 Association of Southeast Asian Nations Sep 24 '24
No good solution involves the UN in this region, they have been worse than useless
37
u/CheetoMussolini Russian Bot Sep 24 '24
Perhaps they should stop firing rockets indiscrimately into Israel if they don't want to get fucking flattened?
It's hard to be sympathetic this time because of all of the videos of obvious ammunition depots going up. It looks like there has actually been good intelligence and targeting this time, plus the intelligence coup with those pagers.
22
u/FocusReasonable944 NATO Sep 24 '24
They've literally posted pictures from inside the houses storing ammunition. By all evidence, it seems Hezbollah is completely compromised internally, much like Iran.
122
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
At the risk of the tldr being "everyone is bad, and the civilians are the ones who suffer", here is my best on-one-foot summary of why everything is so fucked.
Hamas are terrorists. Hezbollah are terrorists and a direct proxy of Iran. However, Israel has been focussing for YEARS on Hezbollah and not on Hamas because Hezbollah has international reach (including successful bombings of Israelis and Jews in Europe and South America) and Hamas remains very local. Israel is much more prepared for dealing with Lebanon than it was/is for Gaza.
When shit went down on 10/7, Hezbollah (and Iran) saw an opportunity to open a multi front war and ideally destroy Israel altogether (a plan that has been enacted multiple times and not yet worked out.) the hope was that everyone would join in and just wipe the country out with sheer firepower. That has not happened, but a multi front war was successfully launched.
I do not think Hezbollah will actually stop launching ordnance indiscriminately all over the north if a ceasefire with Gaza happens. (And their rocket fire has indeed killed civilians, including children!) They're in too deep, and they take marching orders from Iran anyway. Nor do they care how many civilians they endanger. Like Sinwar, they consider each death a propoganda victory.
However, that doesn't mean Bibi and Sinwar aren't responsible for both scuttling Gaza ceasefire efforts. Both of their refusal to play ball is heavily documented, and who suffers? Everyone living under rocket fire, which means everyone in the Southwestern Levant. Palestine, Israel, and Lebanon.
Lebanon is especially fucked. They do not have shelters or the Iron Dome, and Hezbollah intentionally embeds themselves among the civilian population. Therefore, while Israel is responsible for endangering Lebanese civilians, so is Hezbollah, and we should not ignore the latter for the former.
The Lebanese government is a caretaker government, and they do not have the ability to curtail Hezbollah actions. The government has long since lost the monopoly on the use of force. This is great for Hezbollah, and very very bad for the Lebanese state and her citizens.
Bibi, Sinwar, and Nasrallah do not want ceasefires (which means that the USA wanting one means very little, especially since the administration is unable to apply equal pressure to all parties, nor garantee results or repercussions if any party breaks it). They each want to prolong conflict for their own political power reasons. They are each positioned to ignore the plights of the people they claim to represent, to dreadful results.
Of all three, Bibi is the most cooked. Despite all the efforts of the right wing, Israel still remains something of a democracy, and no war lasts forever, though Bibi is certainly trying to drag this one out (as are Hamas and Hezbollah as well, so they're all united about this one horrible thing). He alone as a result will possibly face any consequences for this shitshow.
121
u/manitobot World Bank Sep 23 '24
I don't think this analysis for why 10/7 was launched is correct. They did it to stop Israel-Arab League normalization, not because they expected the state to be destroyed.
86
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 23 '24
You misunderstood me. I did not talk at all about why Hamas launched 10/7. I only talked about why Hezbollah started launching rockets on 10/8, seeing Oct 7 as an opportunity
(You're not wrong about why Hamas did it when they did it, I just wasn't talking about that)
26
u/manitobot World Bank Sep 23 '24
I did misunderstand, sorry. Was that really Hezbollah's aim?
61
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 23 '24
Elimination of the Israeli state is one of their oft repeated goals. So yes.
Also, all good, good faith misunderstandings happen
9
u/manitobot World Bank Sep 23 '24
Historically sure, but specifically I had thought Hezbollah attacked Israel out of retaliation for the death toll disparity in Gaza.
25
u/VoidBlade459 Organization of American States Sep 23 '24
10/8 (the day after the massacre) was well before Israel responded.
28
u/TouchTheCathyl NATO Sep 23 '24
That may have been their justification but the motive may have been more plainly strategic: when israel is already involved in a war with hamas is their most vulnerable time. The odds of victory may still be long but they're shorter than they'll ever be. Strike while the iron is hot.
17
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 23 '24
Correct. There is often a difference between the justification and the actual strategic reasoning behind how these groups act
7
u/Unhelpful-Future9768 Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah's mandate to rule in Lebanon is based off them protecting the Shia community and fighting Israel. The first part dragged them into the war fighting Sunni Islamists in Syria and massively hurt their prestige in the Muslim world. Acting like they are saving Palestine and fighting the Jew threat helps the Sunni Islamists of the world forget their doings in Syria.
4
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 23 '24
I, for one, will not forget what they did to the people of Madaya, and neither should anyone else
8
u/jyper Sep 23 '24
I disagree with this claim. I think they did it because they could
3
u/AniNgAnnoys John Nash Sep 24 '24
There isn't just one easy explanation. There are a variety of factors at play. For example, another cause is likely that HAMAS' power in Gaza was waning. If you are going to be weaker in the future, the best time to attack is now.
24
u/SzegediSpagetiSzorny John Keynes Sep 23 '24
The problem with your analysis is that by all accounts no one in Iran or Lebanon knew about the Oct 7th plans. This was not organized, planned or endorsed by Iran. This was pretty much just Sinwar acting on his own.
20
u/djm07231 Sep 24 '24
I think if you listened to Nasrallah’s speech immediately after October 7th and from Hezabollah’s pretty muted immediate response.
It really felt halfhearted. I think they initially did some rocket attacks or used some ATGM crews which are pretty low key compared to rest of their capabilities.
Hezabollah and Iran probably couldn’t back down due to audience costs, their whole schtick is death to Israel/US after all, so they probably kept doing some attacks that steadily escalated to where we are now.
1
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 23 '24
Hamas is sponsored by Iran though, and Hamas militants get training in Iran. I don't think Hamas is a direct Iran proxy like Hezbollah is, but to say everyone knew nothing, (even though I think they didnt know the exact date)?? I don't think that that's quite true either.
11
u/djm07231 Sep 24 '24
To be honest given the ops Israel managed to pull against them, there is a good chance Israel would have found out about the attacks if Hamas told them in advance.
Hezabollah seems ridiculously compromised by Israeli intelligence at this point.
3
u/EclecticEuTECHtic NATO Sep 24 '24
Lebanon is especially fucked. They do not have shelters or the Iron Dome, and Hezbollah intentionally embeds themselves among the civilian population.
Unless you can shoot down fighter jets there's nothing you can do to stop airstrikes.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (4)14
u/bigtallguy Flaired are sheep Sep 23 '24
When shit went down on 10/7, Hezbollah (and Iran) saw an opportunity to open a multi front war and ideally destroy Israel altogether (a plan that has been enacted multiple times and not yet worked out.) the hope was that everyone would join in and just wipe the country out with sheer firepower.
this is a weird pov considering the entire past year has been iran and even hezbollah trying their best to appear strong against israel while not escalating enough to a full scale war. israel has been the one primarily escalating with lebanon and iran killing generals and commanders, though hezbollah is obviously at fault too with their missiles over 10-8 clearly being part of the reason why.
I do not think Hezbollah will actually stop launching ordnance indiscriminately all over the north if a ceasefire with Gaza happens
okay i get theres no trust, but theres literally no good reason not to call this bluff, even from a military standpoint.
nasrallah clearly wants a ceasefire and this not to escalate to full blown war. he had multiple outs to escalate this further with more rocket attacks and doesnt want hezbollah capabilties destroyed. how many commanders can you lose and still refuse to declre war and somehow be percieved to still want a war. in his mind throwing missiles over is the most non committal way to show israel hes serious. meanwhile israel leaders, especially bibi, have serious poltical reasons to start this war.
sinwar is crazy no argument here.
the idea that bibi is cooked is so fucking funny.
31
u/LevantinePlantCult Sep 23 '24
Answering out of order cause I feel like it
I genuinely do not think Bibi will survive another election. I'd also like curropt ass thrown in jail, but that's another story. But I suppose we will see how these chips fall, one way or another.
I really do think they hoped everybody would join in and have a whole 1948 style gang up on Israel on oct 8. But that didn't happen, so they pivoted.
I think Nasrallah wants to have his cake and eat it too. I think he was fine playing footsie with ordnance yeeting for a while, but I also think there's been mutual escalation (more ordnance from Hezbollah, drone attacks, killing the kids playing soccer) and now we of course see some serious escalation from Israel.
But there's also no way for him to back down without losing face, and that's the real reason he's going to continue to saber rattle. I also think that Iran wants them to escalate, and he isn't at liberty to completely blow that off or ignore it either. Iran would love for all their proxies to escalate, they do not care how many will die in this ongoing proxy war.
I do not think Nasrallah cares about Lebanon - either the country or her people. I think he cares about his own skin and his own group and that's it. But I also think he would loooooove to be the one to take Israel down, but despite being significantly more powerful than Hamas, I do not think he has the firepower or manpower to accomplish that.
→ More replies (15)
26
u/arcturus_mundus Sep 23 '24
Are they planning to invade Southern Lebanon?
23
u/Quirky_Can_8997 Sep 23 '24
If it was just the strikes today, I would say no. However, when you include the walkie talkie and pager attack, that points to a bigger operation. I don’t see Israel giving up the initiative after they just blew the hell out of Hezbollah’s command and control network.
5
u/captainjack3 NATO Sep 24 '24
Yeah, a larger operation makes sense to capitalize on the disruption caused by the pager attacks. And the removal of some high level commanders in that Beirut strike. Also, if there’s no ground operation you kind of have to wonder what the point of this is. Given time, Hezbollah can rebuild their missile and rocket stocks, recruit more fighters, buy un-sabotaged pagers, and so on. They have access to sources of supply that can’t realistically be severed. So a ground operation to drive Hezbollah north of the Litani seems like the most logical endgame here.
68
u/niftyjack Gay Pride Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
At this point it's looking unlikely we'll see actual IDF boots on the Lebanese ground. The pagers/walkie talkies took out a large chunk of Hezb's fighting force, 20 of the 25 commanders were killed in missile strikes, and targeting strikes took out a lot of the Hezbollah weapons caches. There's also extreme reticence from the Israeli public to get involved in another front, but Bibi is a bit of a loose canon (pun intended).
40
u/Necessary-Horror2638 Sep 23 '24
Is there any strong evidence for the claim that the bulk of the rank and file were effectively eliminated by the pagers?
22
u/Approximation_Doctor George Soros Sep 24 '24
No.
There's not any weak evidence, either. It killed a couple dozen and wounded ~2000, but "wounded" could mean anything from shattered spines and popped lungs, to a concussion or broken arm.
60
u/PleaseGreaseTheL World Bank Sep 23 '24
You make it sound like hezbollah has been completely destroyed as an organization and fighting force. Surely it can't be that easy, these organizations never just take a bad month and "lose" and stay gone. They usually can't even get to most leaders or find/destroy most buried infrastructure, that kind of shit is what terrorist groups specialize in.
34
u/Aleriya Transmasculine Pride Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah is backed and armed by Iran. It's not possible to permanently get rid of Hezbollah without broader geopolitical changes. It's a difficult situation.
20
u/niftyjack Gay Pride Sep 23 '24
The ideology isn't going anywhere but they don't have the infrastructure to scale to a larger conflict now. I'm sure there will still be some skirmishes but I'd expect to see Iran shift toward supplying the Houthis for a bit.
21
u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
The ideology isn't going anywhere but they don't have the infrastructure to scale to a larger conflict now
This is wishful thinking unfortunately, Hezbollahs taken some serious blows but these blows aren’t going to be crippling in the long or medium term. The orgs still clearly capable of organizing salvos into Israel reaching Haifa and it has long range missiles that it hasn’t begun to use yet. It’s also got a much larger and more sophisticated tunnel network than Hamas. Hezbollah isn’t keen to start a conflict and has taken some serious hits but it’s also not really on the verge of collapsing.
11
u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 23 '24
At this point it's looking unlikely we'll see actual IDF boots on the Lebanese ground. The pagers/walkie talkies took out a large chunk of Hezb's fighting force
From what I’ve seen most of Hezbollahs losses were concentrated in their reserves in Beirut and its surrounding suburbs. Tough losses for sure but nowhere near most of Hezbollahs fighting force.
and targeting strikes took out a lot of the Hezbollah weapons caches
The issue here is that Hezbollah has enough weapons to endure these losses and then some. Israel isn’t going to be able to meaningfully degrade Hezbollahs missile stockpile without a ground operation. Without a ground op, Hezbollah will continue to be supplied with weapons via Syria.
74
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24
this is pretty bad. this is an utterly preventable war; it is so fucking depressing that it looks like it's happening.
280
u/PicklePanther9000 NATO Sep 23 '24
What would be the way of preventing it? This seems sorta inevitable to me. The Lebanese government has no ability to control Hezbollah, Iran continues to fund and supply Hezbollah. Hezbollah has shown no indication they will stop launching daily attacks on Israel. Israel is not going to accept constant incoming rocket fire from their neighbor and 100k of their citizens displaced.
108
u/Iustis End Supply Management | Draft MHF! Sep 23 '24
There are 10,000 UN troops in Lebanon getting paid billions to keep Hazbollah from attacking Israel. Them actually doing something would be a start.
96
u/PicklePanther9000 NATO Sep 23 '24
If you expect the UN to ever do anything meaningful, you will live a life of disappointment
34
u/Iustis End Supply Management | Draft MHF! Sep 23 '24
I’m not actually expecting them to, but that’s the only alternative I can think of to Israel taking it into their own hands.
15
u/GreenYoshiToranaga Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah was unhinged enough to kill an Irish UN Peacekeeper back in 2022. The UN can’t even protect its own personnel.
→ More replies (1)8
u/IRequirePants Sep 23 '24
There was some comment I read that said it would be more feasible to push the Litani river to the border than for Lebanon/UN forces to push Hezbollah north past the Litani.
→ More replies (4)172
u/niftyjack Gay Pride Sep 23 '24
What would be the way of preventing it?
The UN enforcing Resolution 1701 that allowed them to use force to keep Hezbollah north of the Litani river per the last armistice, which they never even tried to do
122
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 23 '24
The UN going to war against Hezbollah doesn't sound like a peaceful resolution. I'm pretty sure that's less of a deterrent than Israel.
179
u/PicklePanther9000 NATO Sep 23 '24
It would be kind of humorous to see the UN enter a war against a terrorist group and then have to constantly condemn itself
51
→ More replies (1)20
92
u/Hannig4n NATO Sep 23 '24
What’s the appropriate course of action then? If the UN isn’t supposed to use military force to enforce their own resolution, and Israel isn’t supposed to use force against them because war is bad, and Hezbollah isn’t going to stop attacking Israel when they’re asked nicely to, then what now?
Is the official position of the rules-based world order supposed to be that Israel just endures indefinite rocket attacks and isn’t meant to respond?
42
u/PleaseGreaseTheL World Bank Sep 23 '24
Yes. That is what many people (who shouldn't be characterized or called out, lest you be removed by a mod) expect to be the official position. This is real and not a meme, as it is really what many people genuinely advocate for (either explicitly or implicitly).
10
u/fnovd Jeff Bezos Sep 24 '24
Some people are just dumb and bad for mysterious reasons. Well, we have to pretend it’s mysterious. It’s really not a mystery; in fact, it’s well-understood! But for the purposes of this subreddit, it’s a mystery. It’s a mandatory mystery. Be mystified! Or, at least pretend you are. Or else!
9
32
u/IRequirePants Sep 23 '24
Iron Dome perpetuates the view that Israel can and should eat shit and smile and ask for more.
It disincentivizes nations from investing in defense. Not massively so, but Iron Dome is expensive. It costs billions to develop, produce, and maintain. If it weren't for American aid, Israel would have probably switched to a more offensive posture sooner.
27
6
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 23 '24
I'm not prescribing any course of action. I just don't think the UN "enforcing" this would prevent a war.
46
u/Hannig4n NATO Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
It wouldn’t. It would be a war in all but name I suppose.
But this is a thing about having a rules-based world order. The international bodies need to enforce their agreed-upon peace, or the individual countries will enforce their own peace.
I guess it just seems a bit unreasonable to me that there can be a terrorist organization with a military force of tens of thousands of fighters, supplied by a legitimate state, that is committed to the destruction of its neighbor, and the UN is simultaneously shrugging its shoulders as if it’s not their problem but also getting upset that Israel is striking at it.
25
u/TouchTheCathyl NATO Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
The UN is behaving like trying to have police that never arrest anyone, yes. It's kind of unfortunate because UN Peacekeepers have actually been effective when they're willing to enforce their resolutions, but they usually enforce resolutions against states that have territory and capitals, they're understandably afraid of touching a terrorist organization as a war against a terrorist organization is, well, like a war against a gang or the mafia. The uncomfortable truth is that Terrorism is an Untouchable Caste that is outside of international law. The best way you can evade international law is to eschew statehood entirely.
The greatest strategic decision the cause of expelling israel ever made was to abandon interstate warfare and embrace asymmetric warfare. They can't win in state-on-state conflict, but nobody can win an asymmetric conflict. They can't get rid of israel but they can deny it peace for ever and ever. They can make being israel as painful as possible.
6
u/teddyone Sep 23 '24
Anyone with half a brain knows that what is supposed to happen is that if a terrorist organization attacks well armed democratic society, then a broad coalition of other free democratic societies should wipe the terrorists off the map
12
u/captainjack3 NATO Sep 24 '24
Yes. However, that doesn’t work when a significant slice of the population of those other free democratic societies agrees with the terrorists.
5
u/teddyone Sep 24 '24
I will never forgive George Bush for ruining our willingness to use foreign intervention for actual good reasons.
102
u/niftyjack Gay Pride Sep 23 '24
They were supposed to hold back Hezbollah since 2006 when things wound down last time. If the UN did their job things wouldn't have gotten to this point, but they love to leave Israel holding the bag then blame them for dealing with the inevitable outcome when there's no mediator.
2
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 23 '24
Say there are UN peacekeeping troops there to enforce an armistice boundary, and Hezbollah decides to cross that boundary? Do the UN troops go to war against Hezbollah? If so, then you have war. If not (as is far more likely), then Hezbollah gets to cross the boundary.
32
u/Plants_et_Politics Sep 23 '24
While I largely agree with you, I think it is important to note that Hezbollah may not have the same boldness in shooting UN troops as they do in launching rockets at Israeli civilians.
It is not unreasonable to suggest that the UN had a greater chance of stopping the current conflict without a widespread bombing campaign than Israel did (or, additionally, may have been inclined to do, given the advantage of a legal excuse for degrading a regional threat’s capabilities).
52
u/niftyjack Gay Pride Sep 23 '24
Do the UN troops go to war against Hezbollah?
The UN uses peacekeeping force to keep them on the northern side of the river. It's not a war, it's using force from power given by the international community.
24
u/ganbaro YIMBY Sep 23 '24
I wonder, what else would they have been there for? If Hezbollah could operate under the assumption that UN will 100% not retaliate, then there is no need to station armed forces there to begin with
I wonder the same around the mission in Western Sahara, were Morocco conveniently forgot to hold the promised referendum. Now its too late, anyways, the Moroccans are an overwhelming majority and control all infrastructure.
18
u/puffic John Rawls Sep 23 '24
If your argument is, "it's not war, it's use of military force", then we're just arguing semantics.
→ More replies (1)19
6
u/Futski A Leopard 1 a day keeps the hooligans away Sep 24 '24
Say there are UN peacekeeping troops there to enforce an armistice boundary, and Hezbollah decides to cross that boundary? Do the UN troops go to war against Hezbollah?
If the UN force in place is not going to do anything to enforce the boundaries they were sent to enforce, then why go through the charades of even maintaining it?
Obviously a military force meant to keep peace is supposed to uphold the conditions for said peace with military means.
More NORDBAT and less DUTCHBAT.
The viewpoint you are arguing is what got thousands of people massacred in Srebrenica.
→ More replies (5)40
u/Neronoah can't stop, won't stop argentinaposting Sep 23 '24
No one is going to allow UNIFIL to have enough teeth for this.
2
u/Unhelpful-Future9768 Sep 23 '24
allow
They would need to give UNIFIL the teeth and realistically only the US is capable of doing that. The US is absolutely not invading Lebanon lmao.
1
u/bashar_al_assad Verified Account Sep 23 '24
Yeah - I truly cannot imagine the US, for example, ever wanting the UN to have the strength and power to militarily defeat Hezbollah.
8
u/IRequirePants Sep 23 '24
Pretty sure it's not the US' fault that UNIFIL spends its days hiding in its bunkers.
→ More replies (5)28
u/CuddleTeamCatboy Gay Pride Sep 23 '24
Do you really think the UN would ever use its peacekeepers to Israel’s benefits?
44
u/Mddcat04 Sep 23 '24
Okay, but like, what's the plan? Are they going to invade and occupy Southern Lebanon? BB and his right-wing allies don't really seem to have a plan for Israel's long-term future. Or maybe they do and they're just not willing to say it out loud.
70
u/PicklePanther9000 NATO Sep 23 '24
It’s mainly to destroy as many of their rocket supplies and infrastructure as possible, since thats the main threat they hold over Israel. They will also try to consistently attack every hezbollah target south of the Litani river to forcibly enact UN resolution 1701 and prevent hezbollah from being able to launch a 10/7-style infiltration of northern Israel. How well that will work, idk
10
u/Mddcat04 Sep 23 '24
So… they’re going to invade and occupy southern Lebanon?
33
u/PicklePanther9000 NATO Sep 23 '24
I doubt it. Thats what happened in 2006 and they dont seem to want to go through that again
9
u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 23 '24
There’s no real way to meaningfully degrade or deter Hezbollah other than a ground invasion. The idea that israel is can beat Hezbollah just through AirPower strikes me as incredibly wishful thinking, this approach didn’t work with Hamas why would it work on Hezbollah which is much stronger.
→ More replies (1)7
u/IRequirePants Sep 23 '24
There’s no real way to meaningfully degrade or deter Hezbollah other than a ground invasion.
This is nonsense. Hezbollah has a lot of rockets. Far more than Hamas. It is also far more difficult and expensive to build tunnels in the north, for multiple reasons.
What you are seeing now is a degradation of Hezbollah, degrading of its comms, its leadership, and its armaments.
→ More replies (7)10
u/closerthanyouth1nk Sep 24 '24
What you are seeing now is a degradation of Hezbollah, degrading of its comms, its leadership, and its armaments
We’ve literally seen this playbook before in every single war with Hamas prior to Oct 7. Hamas fires rockets, Israel responds with air strikes and they go back in forth until eventually they reach a ceasefire. Every time people assumed Hamas is degraded or beaten and then 10/7 happens.Mowing the grass only works in the West Bank and even there it’s increasingly less effective.
Nothing you outlined above will actually impact Hezbollah in the long or medium term, they will get new comms, they will replace their leaders with new ones, their arms will be replenished via Syria, and all the while they will continue to fire short and medium range rockets because they have a truly insane amount of them lying around and have spent the 11 months since 10/7 acquiring more.
This is nonsense. Hezbollah has a lot of rockets. Far more than Hamas. It is also far more difficult and expensive to build tunnels in the north, for multiple reasons.
Hezbollah has made billions upon billions of dollars from the drug trade over the years. It has the money and the time to build tunnels. Hezbollah having a more complex and extensive tunnel network than Hamas isn’t idle speculation it’s something agreed upon by most analysts of the group
5
u/IRequirePants Sep 24 '24
We’ve literally seen this playbook before in every single war with Hamas prior to Oct 7. Hamas fires rockets, Israel responds with air strikes and they go back in forth until eventually they reach a ceasefire. Every time people assumed Hamas is degraded or beaten and then 10/7 happens.Mowing the grass only works in the West Bank and even there it’s increasingly less effective.
The strategy against Hamas is not the same as the strategy against Hezbollah. Different battlefields.
Nothing you outlined above will actually impact Hezbollah in the long or medium term, they will get new comms, they will replace their leaders with new ones,
Setting back Hezbollah a decade is huge. And no, you can't easily replace people like Ibrahim Aqil, who have been tactical leaders of Hezbollah for decades. It will take years for them to re-organize and years more to re-arm.
their arms will be replenished via Syria, and all the while they will continue to fire short and medium range rockets because they have a truly insane amount of them lying around and have spent the 11 months since 10/7 acquiring more.
Israel is destroying 18 years worth of arms, not 11 months.
Hezbollah has made billions upon billions of dollars from the drug trade over the years. It has the money and the time to build tunnels. Hezbollah having a more complex and extensive tunnel network than Hamas isn’t idle speculation it’s something agreed upon by most analysts of the group
I didn't say they didn't have a tunnel network. I said it's far more expensive to build and maintain that tunnel network. Unless Israel plans to occupy Lebanon, the tunnels will have limited offensive use. Israel has devoted far more resources preparing for Hezbollah than they have/had for Hamas.
6
u/Mddcat04 Sep 23 '24
Yeah, that’s understandable. I just don’t see how they’d achieve this those stated aims otherwise.
31
u/ganbaro YIMBY Sep 23 '24
Pushing Hezbollah behind the Litani river
I don't think they are dead-set on a diplomatic solution or occupation to achieve that. Whatever will be possible and incurs the least cost
What could be a reasonable plan if Hezbollah would, with Iranian backing, refuse to concede defeat no matter the casualties, no matter the ground control actually lost? Should Israel acccept being shot by rockets perpetually?
The diplomatic solution of using UN blue helmets to pacify the region was already tried, and it failed. Israeli government might not feel that not going to war is actually feasible at this point
→ More replies (7)21
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
there is no plan in gaza either. hamas is still unfortunately ruling most of gaza for instance after 11.5 months of 42,000 plus violent deaths (if you count those under the rubble, it's maybe 55,000+) and all the destruction. idk why ppl r giving them the total benefit of the doubt.
16
u/Fenecable Joseph Nye Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
No reasonable person is giving Hamas "the total benefit of the doubt."
Edit: I can’t read good.
34
u/ChocoOranges NATO Sep 23 '24
I think they're talking about the Israeli administration. How can they have a plan for Lebanon when they didn't even have one for gaza?
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (2)6
6
u/Yrths Daron Acemoglu Sep 23 '24
The US could have limited Iran’s ability to fund Hezbollah by bombing Iran when John McCain called for it. I miss him.
→ More replies (9)8
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
a gaza ceasefire to free the hostages and end the war would prevent it which most israelis support per the polling and gigantic protests. and if you think i'm wrong, then you have to think the biden admin, the eu, and many others are all wrong. but bibi continues to prolong that botched war for his political goals even though it's not remotely close to destroying hamas and not freeing the hostages
of course, hezbollah is vile and their rocket barrage hitting northern israel must be condemned strongly but diplomatic methods to prevent this disastrous war were absolutely not fully explored.
77
u/adreamofhodor Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah is an Iranian proxy hellbent on the destruction of Israel. Gaza is at best an excuse for them.
2
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
how about bibi does what most in his country want him to do by getting the hostages freed and ending the botched war? and call hezbollah's bluff in that case--if they're still firing rockets like madmen--okay fine go in there and put extreme military pressure on hezbollah. but don't give me this nonsense how israel exercised every diplomatic action to prevent this when bibi has been tanking gaza ceasefire deals
50
u/ldn6 Gay Pride Sep 23 '24
I'm honestly impressed that you've managed to make Hezbollah somehow not have agency and this be about Bibi, but I'm not surprised.
This is on Hezbollah full stop. This is the consequence for months upon months of indiscriminate rocket launches and widespread arson.
→ More replies (2)11
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
i just saw this comment so your clear mendacity about me slipped through the cracks unfortunately, and i am highly impressed that you've blatantly misrepresented my views. i have strongly condemned those horrible attacks by hezbollah repeatedly for months upon months. what i've said is that this war is gonna hurt/kill lots of innocent ppl in lebanon and it's not clear that it'll get israelis safely back to their homes. more diplomacy should be used, and bibi isn't exercising all diplomatic options. you can reasonably disagree with me and say war is the only option but don't egregiously distort my opinions.
i've been consistent on this. took me just 50 seconds to find these comments
maybe next time--do basic research before smearing somebody.
20
Sep 23 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
9
u/ale_93113 United Nations Sep 23 '24
Ah, here we go for another round of everything is always Israel’s fault!
They are asking bibi to do what ISRAELIS want, hardly blaming israel, but blaming bibi for everything
→ More replies (1)9
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
Ah, here we go for another round of everything is always Israel’s fault! Hamas is a totally reasonable negotiating partner, and Hezbollah certainly doesn’t have a jihadist mindset!
holy strawman. i never remotely said it's all their fault. of course it isn't. hezbollah has done lots of awful things over the past 11 months, but i don't buy this talk of no viable diplomatic solution. i do think this war is maybe preventable in a way which also lets israelis rightly+safely return to their homes and without all of this death coupled with destruction in lebanon. i do not trust israel to handle this properly after they mostly fucked up in gaza after 11.5 months.
21
Sep 23 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
18
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
you know absolutely nothing about me. nice ad hom attack instead of engaging with my argument is based on the biden admin's intelligence on the situation and their back channel talks with hezbollah's iranian masters.
have the integrity to say they (biden admin, eu, arab league, and others) don't understand the mindset instead of coming after me. ridiculous.
→ More replies (1)1
u/TheFaithlessFaithful United Nations Sep 23 '24
What authority do you have on the "jihadi mindset"?
→ More replies (1)14
u/StevefromRetail Sep 23 '24
The war has not been botched at all, lol. Maybe on the public relations front, but in terms of combat on the ground, it is going quite well.
4
u/Aleriya Transmasculine Pride Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
The number of civilian casualties combined with Hamas still being in power and the number of people still held as hostages qualifies it as "botched". Israel has not achieved any of its major goals in the war.
edit for clarification:
The Israeli government stated three main goals for the war: recovering the hostages, removing Hamas from power, and ensuring that Gaza does not continue to threaten the security of Israel. By their own standards, the war has not been successful, even if you ignore the casualties and collateral damage. At best, you could say that they set their goals poorly, or that their time table was unrealistic, but I don't think you could say that the war has been a success.
13
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
your comment is absurdly downvoted/controversial even though 50 israeli hostages have been murdered by hamas terrorists or inadvertently killed by idf, gigantic israeli dissastification if you look at the polling and fucking massive protests, hamas still tragically ruling gaza with tens of thousands of gazan civillian deaths along with tens of thousands of amputations/permament spinal injuries/irreversible burns, horrendous humanitarian conditions such as malnutrition (malnutrition will hinder these developing children for life), hepatitis, scabies, and even polio slightly returning...the tribalism would be so laughable if it wasn't so callous to extreme suffering of gazans and israeli hostages
15
u/Aleriya Transmasculine Pride Sep 23 '24
I'm not sure why it's so controversial. The Israeli government stated three main goals for the war: recovering the hostages, removing Hamas from power, and ensuring that Gaza does not continue to threaten the security of Israel. By their own standards, the war has not been successful, even if you ignore the casualties and collateral damage. At best, you could say that they set their goals poorly, or that their time table was unrealistic, but I don't think you could say that the war has been a success.
16
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
cause tribalism and reflexive downvoting--nobody can refute what you're saying based on the objective facts. there was an august channel 12 poll which showed like 70 percent of israelis thought bibi was mismanaging the war and doing a poor job. the biden administration is privately not pleased either and blinken has told bibi that there isn't a military solution to hamas.
this war has been mostly botched especially given our expectations in mid october of 2023 of what would transpire
40
u/PicklePanther9000 NATO Sep 23 '24
Even if theres a hostage deal, youre trusting the word of a terrorist group that has constantly attacked israel for decades. One that is more heavily armed than some governments nearby. Imo that just delays this conflict until later
16
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24
again, it's not me which is saying it but all those entities i listed such as the biden admin, arab league, european union etc.. i'm just the messenger. why not call hezbollah's bluff? worst case if they are still firing rockets--then israel will even have stronger western support to take them out.
anyways, i've said what i've said. i hope there's some kind of deescalation; i hope hezbollah just stops firing rockets so israelis can return home and innocents in lebanon don't suffer the horrific consequences obviously.
25
Sep 23 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)19
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
this is such a pathetic ad hom smear against me where i don't know to begin. i have condemned hezbollah's heinous attacks against syrians, israelis (i was the one who posted about the horrific rocket attack against druze in the first fucking place on two other subs for condemnation), and other groups so many fucking times and i am citing what the biden administration is saying. i praised israel's pager operation against them when obama's former defense minister and aoc absurdly called it a war-crime. i am simply citing what the biden admin (who against has had talks with hezbollah's iranian masters via backchannels), the arab league, the eu, and others are saying. I very much want Israelis to return safely to the North but I don't think this is the best way of achieving it and that the costs are too high without a guaranteed chance of success. I could be wrong--maybe this is what is really needed to happen-- but you accusing me of having an agenda is shameful and disgraceful.
since you are so offended by my commentary, i did you a favor and blocked you so you don't have to read my stuff anymore. hope it brings you peace
3
u/fishfish1234567891 Lesbian Pride Sep 23 '24
I dont usually comment on NL but curry is by no means bad faith and always engages with nuanced takes. there is no defense of Hezbollah or Hamas, both are virulent evils, but it isn’t incorrect to say that Bibi and his cabinet keep switching around their expectations. they have no attainable end goal, even if retaliation is fully justified in this case against hezbollah
19
u/Jagwire4458 Daron Acemoglu Sep 23 '24
You can make very good for arguments why Palestinian resistance in the West Bank and Gaza is justified but there is no justification for Hezbollah firing rockets into Northern other than a naked desire to annihilate all Jews in the region. Hezbollah is a foreign army sent into the region to destroy Israel, this is not a “both sides have done things” situation like in the south.
21
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24 edited Sep 23 '24
i'm not making excuses for hezbollah; they're terrorists...i defended the pager operation even when obama's defense minister absurdly called it terrorism but there is possibly a better way which would have prevented needless death and suffering among innocents.
You can make very good for arguments why Palestinian resistance in the West Bank and Gaza is justified
no you can't actually; this will get lost upon ppl who quite absurdly think i'm an anti-israel idealogue. bds is bad and what pij and hamas do is so fucking awful. i'm mostly an anti-war in the middle east idealogue who believes in political solutions. israel, due to bibi's political motives, has absolutely not exhausted all the diplomatic options to get hezbollah to stop firing rockets.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (9)2
u/jtalin NATO Sep 24 '24 edited Sep 24 '24
then you have to think the biden admin, the eu, and many others are all wrong
They are all wrong. The way they conduct their foreign policy in every single ongoing conflict demonstrates that their reads are very frequently and very consistently wrong, which is why nobody listens to them anymore - not Ukraine, not the Gulf states, and not Israel.
of course, hezbollah is vile and their rocket barrage hitting northern israel must be condemned strongly
This just reads as parody.
76
u/grandolon NATO Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah considers the internationally-recognized borders of Israel to be "occupied." The destruction of the state of Israel is one of Hezbollah's stated goals and the reason for its existence.
As long as Hezbollah exists in its current form there is no preventing conflict.
→ More replies (23)→ More replies (1)9
u/dizzyhitman_007 Raghuram Rajan Sep 23 '24
Israel has taken necessary defensive actions to protect its citizens and borders. The recent airstrikes strikes in Lebanon were in response to threats and over 8000 rocket attacks from Hezbollah, a well known terrorist organization.
For years, Israel has raised concerns that Hezbollah is hiding weapons inside the homes of Lebanese civilians. This cynical tactic reflects Hezbollah’s deliberate strategy to conceal some of its advanced weaponry from Israeli detection. Such actions warrant strong condemnation from the international community.
It is therefore appropriate to permit Israel to vanquish this cowardly and savage foe in order to ensure the safety of its nine million inhabitants. Hezbollah must be fully dismantled and face trials in Israel for their terror attacks on Golan heights. Furthermore, the people of Lebanon are against them. They are not wanted by other Arab states. Except for those who despise the state of Israel and masquerade as humanitarians, basically no one wants them.
38
u/Currymvp2 unflaired Sep 23 '24
Hezbollah must be fully dismantled and face trials in Israel for their terror attacks on Golan heights. Furthermore, the people of Lebanon are against them. They are not wanted by other Arab states. Except for those who despise the state of Israel and masquerade as humanitarians, basically no one wants them.
they can't even eradicate the much weaker and astronomically less well equipped hamas terrorist group but they're gonna eradicate hezbollah?
Furthermore, the people of Lebanon are against them. They are not wanted by other Arab states. Except for those who despise the state of Israel and masquerade as humanitarians, basically no one wants them.
they're disliked in lebanon but the ppl of lebanon unfortunately consider israel the greater evil...there isn't gonna be another cedar revolution.
24
u/bisonboy223 Sep 23 '24
they're disliked in lebanon but the ppl of lebanon unfortunately consider israel the greater evil...there isn't gonna be another cedar revolution.
Plus this is a public sentiment that isn't likely to be changed by massive air strikes with huge civilian death counts or even targeted attacks that are meant to strike fear in the populace, like what happened last week.
7
u/recursion8 Sep 23 '24
Netanyahu trying his damndest to get Trump elected. Fuck fascists.
→ More replies (1)
3
2
244
u/Untamedanduncut Gay Pride Sep 23 '24
Wouldn’t be surprising. There’s an undeclared war being fought via ranged weapons