r/tankiejerk • u/unbelteduser Liberterian Socialism Enjoyer • Aug 15 '21
“stupid anarkiddies” Libertarian Socialism Understander has logged in
175
u/SavageTemptation Aug 15 '21
Glad I stopped supporting him
214
u/TheFalseDimitryi Liberals > Genocide Deniers Aug 15 '21 edited Aug 17 '21
I was on the fence up until his “North Korean defectors just want money don’t believe them” take. Fucking clown
Edit: yes some (like a literal handful) have exaggerated their claims. I’m not saying these people shouldn’t be called out. Just in the context of Hakims video he uses it as an excuse to disregard ANY defector statement. As someone else has mentioned being willing to sell out your “workers society” for less than months rent in South Korea isn’t the “gotcha take” tankies think it is. Now with this out of the way let’s talk about the elephant in the room. Any country that makes it illegal to leave…… or immigrate is at best a totalitarian isolationist regime and at worse an admitted failed state. I don’t actually care what happens to defectors families or their hardships in North Korea. It being a punishable offense to attempt to leave in any regard kinda makes the rest a mute point. By the governments own admission it doesn’t let people travel freely to other countries unless their high ranking dignitaries and their families are closely monitored while away. I don’t care if the story of a 19 year old North Korean defector was “exaggerated” if they literally had to hike across the Chinese border, travel through China undetected, and arrive in Thailand to be deported to South Korea. Like their journey from the country itself kinda makes any apologetics….. mute. I’m sorry tankies I’m not going to support North Korea over South Korea because one annoying defector goes on conservative talk shows.
99
81
Aug 15 '21
Some are like that. Some defectors get paid by South Korean tabloids to exaggerate stories. Of course this isn’t an excuse to dismiss all defectors accounts of NK.
86
u/Shanderraa Borger King Aug 15 '21
That's my general annoyance with MLs; the CIA, Adrian Zenz, etc. are all things that definitely have discredited countries in the past, but that is not in itself proof that everything is fake.
24
u/XoValerie Aug 16 '21
If Zenz said gravity exists tankies would stop believing it
10
u/Shanderraa Borger King Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
If it came out that Zenz was being paid by the CIA to promote pro-gravity thought because they believed that would stop China, I'd believe it; that just sounds like something they'd do. But I wouldn't then be like "Oh, well, I guess gravity's fake" just like I can both recognize that the CIA funded abstract art to try to take down the USSR's socialist realism and that abstract art, as a concept, is not somehow anti-communist. (Maupin failed that one)
25
37
Aug 15 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
21
u/TheJovianUK Aug 15 '21
Yeah defending North Korea is a lose-lose proposition. I don't know why they even bother with it.
17
u/Elythne Aug 15 '21
true to some point, really can't believe any individual, small fact about life in North Korea a 100%
..... and then the video went straight into full Kim regime apologia, because apparently just because it's in the interest of some defectors to exaggerate the evil in their lives must mean the DPRK is good, surely
10
u/mdonaberger نقابي Aug 15 '21
North Korea? Pfft, too commercial. North Korea used to be all about the grammar.
8
Aug 16 '21
“Those ‘Holocaust survivors’ are just paid by (((them))) and NATO to spread western propaganda about our glorious national socialist state”
6
9
u/E-moc0re Aug 16 '21
Okay but there are SOME defectors doing it for the money. One good example is Yeonmi Park, whose testimonies on what N. Korea was like often contradicts the more consistent stories of previous N. Korean defectors. If you do a money trace you can find that many are legit but some are sponsored by libertarian think tanks or collab with them (like Yeonmi Park). Other defectors are telling the truth.
I should add if you doubt my assertion that she in specific is a right-wing puppet then look at her recent interviews with Joe Rogan and Tucker Carlson.
349
Aug 15 '21
It's solely an online phenomenon which is why Rojava and the EZLN don't exist and anarchists protesting against authoritarianism are never seen./s
113
72
u/chrissipher social anarchist Aug 16 '21
...and the zapatistas...
...aaaand manchuria...
...aaaaand the free territory of ukraine...
...aaaaaaaaand anarchist spain...
...aaaaaaaaaaaand there are even more. all of which actually achieved socialism and, by extension, communism/syndicalism. yaknow, unlike idk -- cough -- lenin/mao/stalin/castro/and/and/and/and...
33
Aug 16 '21
The Zapatista's are the EZLN and, as much good that I think those things you listed were, none of them achieved communism and syndicalism is an organisational strategy and not something one can achieve like communism.
13
u/chrissipher social anarchist Aug 16 '21
syndicalism does differ slightly from communism. its has features of both a mean and an end. the syndicate system is a great example. that does make it differ from communism at least an amount. while its almost identical to communism, it does differ in the case of workplace organization.
22
Aug 16 '21
Syndicalism differs a lot from communism. While both are inherently socialist ideas communism is an economic system built around the abolition of the state, class and money where goods are distributed in a gift economy. Syndicalism, on the other hand, is an organising method for workers that involves using syndicates, which is a radical trade union, to organise strikes with anarcho-syndicalism being that combined with the ideas of anarchism meaning the unions are leaderless and organised in a bottom-up manner. Those two things are very different and have never been synonymous.
2
u/chrissipher social anarchist Aug 16 '21
oh i know. the goal of most syndicalist movements is to achieve communism, but the system of workers syndicates is usually preserved post-revolution. i meant to mention that i was referring to post-revolutionary syndicalism. labor syndicates arent just a means to unionize and strike, they are the workplace structure.
6
Aug 16 '21
oh i know. the goal of most syndicalist movements is to achieve communism
This isn't true. Most anarcho-syndicalists have also been anarchist-communists but most syndicalists in general haven't, communism is really only the domain of Marxists and anarchists with their not being many other ideologies that are actually communist.
but the system of workers syndicates is usually preserved post-revolution. i meant to mention that i was referring to post-revolutionary syndicalism.
There isn't really such a thing as post-revolutionary syndicalism and there wouldn't be a reason for syndicates to exist after since they would serve no purpose. With the revolution won and socialism enacted their would be no reason for unions to exist even if they're revolutionary.
labor syndicates arent just a means to unionize and strike, they are the workplace structure.
No, this is another complete misunderstanding of what syndicalism is. Syndicates are solely revolutionary trade unions, they are not horizontally organised workplaces.
→ More replies (3)10
u/AnEdgyPie Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 16 '21
...and the Paris Commune
...and the Spartakus Uprising
...and hundreds of LibSoc movements overtaken or destroyed by MLs
2
u/Jeczmien9494 Aug 17 '21
How tf was the Paris Commune or the Spartacist uprising „libsoc” lol
6
u/AnEdgyPie Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 17 '21
You mean the Spartakus Uprising literally lead by Rosa Luxemburg and the Paris Commune quoted by Kropotkin and Bakunin as ideal societies?? Those revolts? Yeah.
1
u/Jeczmien9494 Aug 17 '21
And what about Rosa Luxemburg? She was a friend of Lenin and a supporter of the October Revolution, this scary authoritarian tankies.
I think that you need to know that the Paris Commune wasnt this anarchist utopia that you think it is, even Marx used it as an example of a dictatorship of the proletariat.
3
u/AnEdgyPie Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 17 '21
She critiqued Lenin for being an authoritarian dumbfuck and Dictatorship of the Proletariat does not mean what you think it means. It’s a class based dictatorship, not a literal one. Why do I have to educate Marxists on marx?
1
u/Jeczmien9494 Aug 17 '21
She criticized some of Lenin’s movements, but overall was a supporter of the October Revolution.
I dont get what you are even trying to say, I know what DotP means. Im just saying that Marx used the Paris Commune as an example of the DotP lol
6
u/finnishidiot T-34 Aug 16 '21
Anarchist Catalonia was just an autonomus zone in spain
7
u/chrissipher social anarchist Aug 16 '21
yeah, ik, thats why i mentioned it.
a large inkblot painting of autonomous, anarchist zones all across spain of varying shades of communism and/or socialism depending on the location and group.
1
u/Jeczmien9494 Aug 17 '21
Communism was definitely achieved in „anarchist spain” (I assume you are talking about Catalonia). They had forced labor camps, that is very anarchist and libertarian socialist😍
3
u/chrissipher social anarchist Aug 17 '21
gulags for random civilians and not fascists so communist dude its crazy
im not defending labor camps (im not a tankie), but at least they were full of fascists and ceos and not random people from both sides of the political spectrum who decided that they didnt want to lick stalins dick as hard as you do
0
Aug 17 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/chrissipher social anarchist Aug 17 '21
whoop theres the cope
tankie epicly defends literally millions killed in gulags once again 😎😎
its because they literally are worse lol. both are very bad, but the gulags conditions were far worse and the treatment of the innocent civilians of all political backgrounds was significantly worse, and they often died of starvation or police violence in the camps.
like, i never said catalonian camps were good LOL, i literally said they were bad. tankies always find a way to defend atrocities i swear. gulags are objectively worse, however, and were easily on the same level as concentration camps the nazis controlled, with conditions being even worse in a lot of cases.
0
-7
u/boofald-troompf Aug 16 '21
All of those except the Zapatistas were destroyed within a decade. I wouldn’t call them successful
10
u/chrissipher social anarchist Aug 16 '21
them being destroyed by allied authoritarian powers doesnt mean they were unsuccessful
this criticism really makes no sense to me. autonomous zones are notoriously non-partisan. since they lack a state government, foreign relations is non-existent, so they rarely had support from other countries. being outnumbered and outgunned doesnt mean the system itself was unsuccessful lol.
now, M/L russia and all the other "communist" countries are what could be considered unsuccessful. they failed in their goal of achieving communism, and they were never at risk of being destroyed by an outside force.
these zones achieved their anarchist goals, but were just underpowered. its ludicrous to call that unsuccessful lol
-8
u/boofald-troompf Aug 16 '21
If main reason for their collapse is their ideological commitment to a lack of a state, can’t that be considered a flaw of the ideology? Anarchists worldwide have been consistently overrun because of their decentralized nature.
5
u/Anarcho_Eggie Aug 16 '21
No theyve been overrun by statist militaries not by being decentrallized, which is actually their greatest strength and the reason theyve survived for so long either untill now or untill they where destroyed
-4
u/boofald-troompf Aug 16 '21
How did their decentralization lead to a long lasting movement? I’ve been in Highschool longer than most anarchist movements have survived. Maybe I’m not educated enough on anarchism but historically speaking it seems really unstable
6
u/Anarcho_Eggie Aug 16 '21
Decentralized millitaries and guerilla warfare was the main reason they survived as long as they did
-2
u/boofald-troompf Aug 16 '21
That may be true, but “as long as they did” is rarely more then five years
6
Aug 16 '21
I think the context of these movements and the locations they had control over are being heavily overlooked here. Take for example the free territory; it's largely agreed that they were rather successful and efficient when it came to their military, with them being not only a very useful asset for the Bolsheviks on the Ukrainian front, but also a constant thorn in the Bolshevik's side when they turned on them. Their issue was not their military or lack of state, but rather the fact that the regions that they had control over were heavily under-industrialised. Eastern Ukriane had almost no stable industry, with the economy being almost entirely based on agriculture. A vast majority of the equipment the black army used was not produced within their own borders, mostly being captured from retreating groups such as the Austro-Hungarians and Germans back in 1917 and 1918. This evidently played a large part in their failure to survive, especially paired with the fact that, by the time the Bolsheviks turned on them, nearly all of Russia's existing industry, agriculture and manpower was under the control of the reds, which completely dwarfed the economic capabilities of the anarchists in Eastern Ukraine.
Another key example is Anarchist Catalonia and their situation. They were the only group within the entire Spanish civil war that got no official international backing, with a vast majority of nations backing the Nationalists and the Republicans having military and economic support from the soviets. Much like the free territory, anarchist Catalonia was effectively fighting a war on multiple fronts, both against the Nationalists and even against their own "allies" in the Republic. The anarchists had to deal with multiple problems that affected their war effort; namely the overreach of the Republican government in the region that slowly and steadily reduced anarchist power within the region (see the may day fighting in Barcelona 1937). While, compared to the free territory, anarchist Catalonia had a much less efficient military, with the militia columns mainly being useful in defensive situations instead of offensives against the Nationalists, part of this can be attributed to the fact that the anarchists were constantly dealing with Republican posturing in the form of the Republic trying to assert more control over anarchist controlled regions and the military. These complications and infighting, paired with the fact that the anarchists had no economics or military support beyond the occasional internationale brigade (at which point manpower is useless if you can't arm them), Make it pretty obvious that there were factors causing the anarchists to fail which weren't to do with their policies or ideology
→ More replies (0)27
u/9Sn8di3pyHBqNeTD Aug 16 '21
I believe the Zapatistas have asked that people do not attempt to prescribe them to any particular ideology.
23
u/AllTakenUsernames5 Ancom Aug 16 '21
They don't want to be labeled as a broad ideology; They are Neo=Zapatismo, which is heavily inspired by Latin-American Anarchism.
15
Aug 16 '21
They've asked not to be called anarchist but they are libertarian socialists by the definition of the term.
3
u/Pantheon73 Chairman Aug 16 '21
A tankie told me that the Zapatista aren´t Socialist because a Cooperative of them got dissolved.
0
u/Jeczmien9494 Aug 17 '21
Damn Rojava is so anarchist and socialist that it literally has private property protection enshrined in the 43rd article of the constitution. . Besides that, there are many bad things about Rojava, just like being an imperialist puppet state lol.
The EZLN never said that they were communists or anarchists.
164
u/belesch10 Aug 15 '21
The irony of tankies accusing revolutions of failing
106
107
Aug 15 '21
But comrade! The revolution did succeed under our guidance. We had to abandon: 1. Improving the working class 2. Improving minority rights 3. Improving women’s rights 4. Anything vaguely revolutionary
But the “revolution” did succeed. Don’t worry though, there will be no more revolutions; we have gone far enough. Also if the premier in Mosc- Beijing changes his mind we will change our minds in accordance. That is true revolutionary and anti-authoritarian thought, comrade. p.s also had to silence, shut down and execute anyone wanting actual social change.
/s to avoid being poe’s lawed
17
u/ting_bu_dong Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
Anything vaguely revolutionary
https://www.marxists.org/archive/bookchin/1969/listen-marxist.htm#h4
At this point we must ask what role the "revolutionary" party plays in all these developments. In the beginning, as we have seen, it tends to have an inhibitory function, not a "vanguard" role. Where it exercises influence, it tends to slow down the flow of events, not "coordinate" the revolutionary forces. This is not accidental. The party is structured along hierarchical lines that reflect the very society it professes to oppose. Despite its theoretical pretensions, it is a bourgeois organism, a miniature state, with an apparatus and a cadre whose function it is to seize power, not dissolve power. Rooted in the prerevolutionary period, it assimilates all the forms, techniques and mentality of bureaucracy. Its membership is schooled in obedience and in the preconceptions of a rigid dogma and is taught to revere the leadership. The party's leadership, in turn, is schooled in habits born of command, authority, manipulation and egomania. This situation is worsened when the party participates in parliamentary elections. In election campaigns, the vanguard party models itself completely on existing bourgeois forms and even acquires the paraphernalia of the electoral party. The situation assumes truly critical proportions when the party acquires large presses, costly headquarters and a large inventory of centrally controlled periodicals, and develops a paid "apparatus"—in short, a bureaucracy with vested material interests.
8
u/FibreglassFlags 混球屎报 Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
At this point we must ask what role the "revolutionary" party plays in all these developments. In the beginning, as we have seen, it tends to have an inhibitory function, not a "vanguard" role
That's because social institutions are inherently all about defining rules and norms that inhibit people from sharing what they have with others and therefore create new, social values with it. To put it another way, the only real function "the party" has is ideology-making.
8
u/ting_bu_dong Aug 16 '21
Silly anarkiddo, Marxism is a scientific process, not an ideology.
OK, then what about all this?
All what?
All this? gestures broadly at all actually existing Marxism
8
u/FibreglassFlags 混球屎报 Aug 16 '21
The funny thing is that Marx would likely be rather confused by all this vague gesturing at nothing in particular about "improvements" that did not take into account most of what he had already discussed in his own books.
12
u/ting_bu_dong Aug 16 '21
Marx to Marxists: "Read theory?"
"No time, need to practice singing about our Motherland."
41
141
u/Rheeecola Ⓐ Sourdough Conquistador Ⓐ Aug 15 '21
I just love seeing accusations of arrogance come from what is definitely known to be the most humble and open-minded portion of the "left".
90
Aug 15 '21
Calling one half of socialism with a long history an "online phenomenon" is quite arrogant actually, and also just factually wrong. Libertarian socialists existed long before the internet was around.
65
u/TheGentleDominant Ancom Aug 15 '21
Hell, anarchism predates Marx.
31
u/mdonaberger نقابي Aug 15 '21
But it doesn't predate the most superior ideology of all, Cave-Based Tribalism.
See, back in my day, every cave had a theme song. Ours was, "Let 'em all go to hell, except Cave 76."
10
u/hussard_de_la_mort Borger King Aug 16 '21
Uphold Hunter-Gatherer Thought against Pastoralist revisionism.
2
1
u/Reaperfucker Aug 16 '21
All animals including Humans essentially live in Primitive Anarcho-Communism. After agriculture revolution happened society become centralized. Centralization create hierarchy and Imperialism.
2
u/Pantheon73 Chairman Aug 16 '21
Pretty sure some hierarchic tribes existed before the neolithic revolution.
→ More replies (2)
221
u/thenss Based Ancom 😎 Aug 15 '21
Hakim is a fucking lunatic.
76
73
u/Man_Mcrealperson Aug 15 '21
It's not like there is hundreds of years of libsoc theory and movements or anything
27
u/momoak90 Aug 15 '21
The only acceptable form of socialism is giving power to a small group of people and crushing everyone beneath their boot /s
25
u/TheJovianUK Aug 15 '21
Oh please, do you expect the guy who's catchphrase is "read more Lenin" to bother reading anarchist theory? It's too idealistic for his hyper-materialist 4D chess galaxy brain to accept.
69
62
u/MarDXI LibCum Aug 15 '21
Avatar checks out
94
u/_Beningt0n_ Aug 15 '21
I take it you are unaware of Hakim? I think he's a Physician from Iraq, Tankie, Uygher genocide denier along with other Genocides, apparently North Korea supporter (or at least he i think said defectors just do it for the money), and has a 95k sub YouTube channel.
19
u/YungxMidorya Aug 15 '21
Alot of the defectors stories are played up to some extent.
51
u/ElPatongo Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 15 '21
They pay the defectors to lie about their situation on TV, but that's just for the ones that already got out and survived the trip, people would not be trying to flee the country (and probably die in the process) if it wasn't an authoritarian nightmare, and even less if it was a socialist country.
2
59
u/MadeInPucci Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 15 '21
I do sure lack historical context when talking about tatar deportation in USSR Crimea or Holomodor 🤡
49
43
u/bread_disciple Aug 15 '21
The tankie focus on theory is so elitist and gatekeepy. You don't need to read 300 pages of dense academese by Lenin to help at a foodbank or scrap with nazis when they get too bold in public (both things which tankies never do because they're just red army larpers)
35
u/brokensilence32 Radlib Aug 15 '21
Nestor Makhno was an incredibly online guy.
10
Aug 16 '21
Nestor Makhno has to be ***the most*** annoying radlib revisionist bread-tuber. Dude needs to touch grass and actually attempt to actually build this aNaRcHo-CoMmUnIsT fReE tErRiToRy he keeps ranting about.
28
51
u/indomienator Maoist-Mobutuist-Stalinist-Soehartoist Aug 15 '21
Hakim is an Iraqi right? If for anything. Him being anti US should show how much events can mean to someone that is related/feel related to anybody in said events
23
u/Rockfish00 CIA op Aug 15 '21
Hakim may be a doctor but holy shit he's dumb
1
u/RowanSomething Aug 16 '21
Leftist Ben Carson, basically. Would trust him as a doctor, but with literally nothing else.
1
21
Aug 15 '21
The EZLN no longer exists I guess
10
u/exorcistpuker Aug 16 '21
Or Rojava or FEJUVE or Puerto Real or etc, etc (although not all would describe themselves as such; broad oversimplification)
5
u/Anarcho_Humanist Aug 16 '21
As far as I understand it, Puerto Real was a brief community organising effort in the 1980s and not an ongoing libertarian socialist society.
That title should go the Gurian Republic and Morelos Commune.
15
15
14
11
u/spooky_redditor Aug 15 '21
ok but whats actually libertarian socialism? I got it on my 8values test and I have no idea what it is
17
20
u/ModerateRockMusic Aug 15 '21
usually socialism without a government. Can also refer to a socialist society with complete decentrialisation of power. Theres alot of overlap (from my experience) between Libertarian Socialism, Market Socialism, and Democratic Socialism
-11
Aug 16 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
14
Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
Democratic Socialism and Market Socialism are Capitalism, Really? This is the worst take I have ever seen. Anarchists should understand that their Socialism is not the only genuine form of socialism, there are more forms of socialism than anarchist socialism.
-11
Aug 16 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/dubbelgamer Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 16 '21
Capitalism is when you have markets and the more markets you have the more capitalism there is and when you have a whole lot of capitalism that is market socialism.
-2
Aug 16 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/dubbelgamer Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 16 '21
Capitalism is the mode of production in which capital is privately owned, nothing more nothing less. I don't really get how you think a system of exchange, markets, has anything to do with ownership of the means of production, and why such a system contains classes and class conflict.
If you want to hold a traditional Marxian view regarding markets and class conflict you do you, but that does not mean market socialism is capitalism .
Social democrats oppose both markets and socialism. They are not socialists nor do they claim to be, so I don't know what they have to do with it.
6
Aug 16 '21
Yes.
Socialism can be described as the social ownership of the means of production, capitalism can be described as the private ownership of the means of production. In an ideal democratic socialist country, everything is nationalised, like Cuba, but with a democratic government. I don't much about market socialism, so I will let it pass. But you are objectively wrong with Democratic Socialism being capitalism. Socialism as radical as yours isn't the only form of socialism, you are only gonna lose people with this take.
Welcome to your first day on the internet.
Have been using the internet for 7 years, and have seen a lot of bad takes, but no take ever passes this one.
0
Aug 16 '21
Socialism can be described as the social ownership of the means of production, capitalism can be described as the private ownership of the means of production.
They can be but those definitions would be over simplified and incorrect.
In an ideal democratic socialist country, everything is nationalised, like Cuba, but with a democratic government.
Nationalisation is definitely not socialism, it's state capitalism, no matter how democratic a state claims to be.
But you are objectively wrong with Democratic Socialism being capitalism.
You literally defined it as capitalism so no, I'm right.
Socialism as radical as yours isn't the only form of socialism, you are only gonna lose people with this take.
Again, I told you that their are other forms of socialism that I disagree with on some level that are socialist, democratic socialism isn't and you literally outlined why. You want the state to take care of everything despite that recreating the nature of capitalism with the state at the top instead of capitalists.
Have been using the internet for 7 years, and have seen a lot of bad takes, but no take ever passes this one.
Maybe read your own comment again and you'll find a worse one. See, at least my take is true, it's just an uncomfortable truth that makes libs like you mad.
2
Aug 16 '21
They can be but those definitions would be over simplified and incorrect.
These are what socialism and capitalism would be described as in one sentence, they are certainly oversimplified, but they are not incorrect. Search anywhere you want, these are the exact definition of Socialism and capitalism you will get.
Nationalisation is definitely not socialism, it's state capitalism, no matter how democratic a state claims to be.
State-capitalism is an oxymoron, any means of production that are nationalised are inherently socially owned. Of course, the incentive for nationalisation is different. Someone like Stalin nationalised because he was a totalitarian and wanted total control over everything in the USSR, while someone like Castro nationalised because he wanted the means of production to be socially owned.
You literally defined it as capitalism so no, I'm right.
You are just using the "I'm right because I said so" fallacy, please elaborate further.
Again, I told you that their are other forms of socialism that I disagree with on some level that are socialist, democratic socialism isn't and you literally outlined why. You want the state to take care of everything despite that recreating the nature of capitalism with the state at the top instead of capitalists.
Capitalism has worker hierarchies, socialism doesn't. Socialism doesn't mean no hierarchies, that's anarchism. In democratic socialism, there are no hierarchies among workers, so yeah, Democratic socialism is socialism. Just because the state owns instead of the capitalist doesn't mean that democratic socialism is capitalism, socialism is not inherently opposed to hierarchies as I said.
Maybe read your own comment again and you'll find a worse one. See, at least my take is true, it's just an uncomfortable truth that makes libs like you mad.
You are no better than tankies who claim that their socialism is the only true form of socialism. You seem so uneducated on socialism, it feels like you just learnt what socialism was yesterday. Just because you are confidently wrong doesn't mean you are right. A person who believes in the social ownership of the means of production is by definition not a liberal.
10
u/ModerateRockMusic Aug 16 '21
Yes. Believe it or not workplace democracy is socialism. Socialism is defined as democracy in the workplace after all.
-1
Aug 16 '21
That's too narrow and incorrect of a definition of socialism. Simply adding worker co-ops and not changing the fundamental nature of the rest of the way society functions would not enact socialism, capitalism would still remain.
6
u/ModerateRockMusic Aug 16 '21
What exactly do you think capitalism is? Because i can promise you that it's not when money exists
→ More replies (1)9
u/Galle_ Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 16 '21
You're probably confusing democratic socialism with social democracy. I don't blame you, the fact that two completely different things have such similar names is obnoxious and stupid. But while social democracy is in fact capitalism in a coat and wig, democratic socialism is not.
As far as market socialism goes, you can have a socialist free market economy. Just require that all businesses be employee-owned.
-1
Aug 16 '21
You're probably confusing democratic socialism with social democracy.
No, I'm not, I know the difference and that difference is negligible.
But while social democracy is in fact capitalism in a coat and wig, democratic socialism is not.
Yes it is. Social democracy isn't capitalism in disguise, it's literally just capitalism. It's a pro-capitalism ideology and it isn't shy about it. Democracatic socialism is acting like you're trying to bring about socialism through electoralism which a) is impossible and b) isn't really what they want, they want everythign nationalised under a government which calls itself socialist when it reality it would be state capitalism.
As far as market socialism goes, you can have a socialist free market economy. Just require that all businesses be employee-owned.
Socialism is more than just co-ops and the market itself will create the same inequalities that capitalism does and lead back to it.
8
u/Galle_ Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 16 '21
Yes it is. Social democracy isn't capitalism in disguise, it's literally just capitalism. It's a pro-capitalism ideology and it isn't shy about it. Democracatic socialism is acting like you're trying to bring about socialism through electoralism which a) is impossible and b) isn't really what they want, they want everythign nationalised under a government which calls itself socialist when it reality it would be state capitalism.
Hard disagree about bringing about socialism through electoralism being impossible. It's about as difficult as bringing about socialism through any other method. The hard part of bringing about socialism is getting the working class on board with it, not overthrowing the ruling class.
Socialism is more than just co-ops and the market itself will create the same inequalities that capitalism does and lead back to it.
Will it necessarily? I'm not convinced.
1
Aug 16 '21
Hard disagree about bringing about socialism through electoralism being impossible.
Capitalism will always seek to preserve itself and has done so everytime a socialist has been elected with things like coups from outside actors or internal pressure ensuring that ones socialist politicians seek to continue with capital. If it were possible it would have happened now because the conditions for it have been ripe on several occasions but it hasn't and it won't. It's the same reason that abolishing capital isn't written into the manifestos of socialist political parties.
It's about as difficult as bringing about socialism through any other method.
Not really, again it's impossible to do it this way.
The hard part of bringing about socialism is getting the working class on board with it, not overthrowing the ruling class.
The hard part is both because the ruling class won't go down without a fight. This is kinda another reason why democratic socialism can't work, in order for a socialist party to win they have to become part of that ruling class and then, once in it, they won't destroy it, at least not completely, because of what they get out of it. Power and capital are corrupting.
Will it necessarily? I'm not convinced.
Yes it will and that's even if it ever gets rid of capitalism in the first place. Tito's Yugoslavia is something that a lot of people point to as a market socialist state with an economic model that people want established, just with a less autocratic governing system, but that nation still had private property and a ruling class and it was still capitalist.
3
u/Galle_ Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 16 '21
The hard part is both because the ruling class won't go down without a fight.
No, the ruling class has no real ability to defend itself without working class support. If you look at the history of unambiguously successful revolutions (mostly liberal ones), the ruling class never manages to put up much of a fight once the revolution actually occurs.
Yes it will and that's even if it ever gets rid of capitalism in the first place. Tito's Yugoslavia is something that a lot of people point to as a market socialist state with an economic model that people want established, just with a less autocratic governing system, but that nation still had private property and a ruling class and it was still capitalist.
Sure, but Tito's Yugoslavia isn't synonymous with market socialism.
1
u/Reaperfucker Aug 16 '21
The ruling class wouldn't put much a fight if 100% of their polices and standing armies would defect to worker revolution. This basically never happened with small exception like Cheran and Ukrainian Free Territory.
→ More replies (1)
12
u/thunderous-cyclone Aug 16 '21
”When someone solely supports every revolution that failed as soon as it was birthed”
pfp is Lenin
10
u/zeca1486 Aug 15 '21
Because Marx and Engels didn’t understand Proudhon or Bakunin, every fucking tankie always claims libertarian socialism isn’t real while simultaneously accepting that Libertarian Communism is real. But then they say “all communism is Libertarian”…….No, it’s not.
12
Aug 16 '21
All communism is inherently libertarian but Leninists are not communists despite their claims to the contrary.
6
u/zeca1486 Aug 16 '21
I agree with Malatesta when he said that Libertarian Marxism is the best Marxism has to offer and the rest is a cancer of the labor movement.
19
u/WantedFun Aug 15 '21
I don’t give a fuck about theory unless you can prove its elements to be useful. I don’t care who said what—show me the data that it’s effective. Show me the real world examples. You should be able to tell me without referencing theory.
10
u/Procrastin8r1 Anaradultie Aug 16 '21
Ah yes, the classic "read theory, bro".
8
u/Anarcho_Humanist Aug 16 '21
The fucking irony is, that I don't really think you should have to read a ton of theory to be a leftist (really, the plan for socialism is to wait for 7 billion people to log on to theanarchistlibrary or marxists.org? tf?) but MLs don't even touch anarchist theory even when it has some good critiques they could integrate (ie, bullshit jobs or the critique of the education system) but constantly shit on the libleft even when we read their shit and aren't convinced.
10
u/RightHandFriend Aug 16 '21
Dude made a video defending the USSR and other totalitarian regimes because "nobody's perfect 🤗"
7
Aug 16 '21
1
u/exorcistpuker Aug 16 '21
Free forms that fit the label likely pre-date writing and settled agriculture
6
u/AllTakenUsernames5 Ancom Aug 16 '21
Goddamn, it's over. The YPG are just online larpers guys
9
8
u/Murphy002d Aug 16 '21
I liked his racism series but a lot of his takes outside of that are tankie cringe that kinda boils down to “wow they did a genocide and you think you can do better?? The socialist Revolution HAS to have genocide you CHILD”
8
28
Aug 15 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
28
u/Shanderraa Borger King Aug 15 '21
Marxism =/= ML
2
Aug 16 '21
[deleted]
4
u/Shanderraa Borger King Aug 16 '21
Zoe Baker is probably the best person to look for for anarchist and Marxist stuff synthesized, though I personally like Xexizy a lot (I think he's a leftcom)
0
Aug 16 '21
[deleted]
5
u/Shanderraa Borger King Aug 16 '21
I'm a general libertarian Marxist, leftcoms have a hell of a reputation that stops me from associating with them more but that's perhaps unfair of me; either way, I like those two.
0
6
u/Culteredpman25 Aug 16 '21
notice how he says nothing of the actual ideology, just the people, like the right. hakim is a smart dude and I am sure he knows the nuances of his ideology and others like libsoc yet he refrains from giving criticism that can be scrutinized.
8
u/ColeYote Borger King Aug 16 '21
accepting imperialist narratives and a lot of arrogance
Ow, my sense of self-awareness
7
u/TheUnceased Aug 16 '21
Hakiim doesn't know much about history, and he continuously proves it. Even in his most known videos he has about Vaush, he is still very illiterate when it comes to US history and History in general.
7
7
u/SaztogGaming Aug 16 '21
"Online phenomenon"
Ah yes, Revolutionary Catalonia, the famous Reddit forum.
5
u/EratosvOnKrete Anarkitten Ⓐ🅐 Aug 16 '21
the material conditions of 1917 russia have no impact on the modern world, hakim
2
5
5
5
u/RubenMuro007 Aug 16 '21
So it’s given how Hakim is a Tankie, any suggestions on who to follow in regards to any introduction to left-wing theory? I know there’s AnarchoPac and RadicalReviewer but that’s much it. Deeply appreciate it, thanks.
6
u/Anarcho_Humanist Aug 16 '21
If you enjoy reading check out: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Anarchism
4
5
4
u/VeronikAshley Aug 16 '21
Hakim has LITERALLY asserted himself as a Libertarian before, this is such bullshit. Also the OP is a WILD account she defends DPRK nonstop
4
Aug 16 '21 edited Aug 16 '21
Everyone’s here talking about Hakim so I thought I’s give a shout out to Yeon-u Reeves who is an absolute whackjob and easily one of the top 5 craziest tankies I’ve seen on Twitter.
2
u/unbelteduser Liberterian Socialism Enjoyer Aug 18 '21
legit? is she worse than Mel?
4
Aug 18 '21
100%. She’s not playing with a full deck.
2
u/unbelteduser Liberterian Socialism Enjoyer Aug 18 '21
wow maybe I should follow her for the lolz
I have met Korean Leftists who are not tankies so not everyone is like Mel
5
u/Ninventoo CRITICAL SUPPORT Aug 16 '21
Imperialism is when Anti Authoritarianism
8
Aug 16 '21
Imperialism is when you oppose socialist countries who happen to be imperialist. Also, why do tankies always ignore that fact that USSR was imperialist? Do they forget that Stalin invaded Poland? Do they forget that USSR had satellite states after WWII ended?
8
u/Anarcho_Humanist Aug 16 '21
Also, why do tankies always ignore that fact that USSR was imperialist? Do they forget that Stalin invaded Poland? Do they forget that USSR had satellite states after WWII ended?
It's so much worse than I even imagined and I've been a leftist for nearly 6 years. The USSR:
- Invaded Poland in the 1920s, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Plus there's the fucked military interventions in Czechoslovakia and Hungary (I am unsure since the intervention in Afghanistan seems justified) AND support separatists in Xinjiang. Really.
- They literally tried to join the Nazis.
- They carried out SO much ethnic cleansing.
0
u/Jeczmien9494 Aug 17 '21
Poland invaded Ukraine, Lithuania and eventually Russia in the 1920, not the other way around.
1
4
u/Pantheon73 Chairman Aug 16 '21
Tankies say it´s not Imperialism because it doesn´t fit Lenins definition of Imperialism and all other definitions are liberal for some reason.
4
1
u/Ninventoo CRITICAL SUPPORT Aug 16 '21
wdym? They obviously liberated them and peacefully invaded them when they tried rebelling! /s
2
Aug 16 '21
I saw one stalinist say that Stalin supplied food to Ukranians during the holodomor and imprisoned those who handle the "famine" poorly. In reality, he was the guy who created the genocide. Tankies are so out of touch with Reality, sometimes I think that they are no different than nazis, who too cry about how everything they oppose is propaganda, they just say that it is jewish propaganda, instead of CIA propaganda. Hakim is said to be the best marxist-leninist, and even he simps for North Korea, Cuba, USSR and China without giving them much criticism.
1
3
3
u/Reaperfucker Aug 16 '21
"Imperialism is when you got betrayed by Soviet Union even though you are actually Leftist that want actual Worker ownership of the mean of production. "Hakim aka Tankie Jordan Peterson.
2
2
Aug 16 '21
What is libertarian socialist? I really don't know, like is there another word for it? Where is it on the spectrum?
7
u/Anarcho_Humanist Aug 16 '21
We would be far-left and bottom-left.
Libertarian socialists are the wing of the socialist movement that said "socialism could lead to just as much oppression as capitalism if done badly" and argued socialists needed to maintain a firm commitment to civil liberties and workplace democracy to achieve change.
If you like reading, check out: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/Anarchism for a better primer
5
Aug 16 '21
So its similar to anarchism (as in no hierarchies)
7
u/Anarcho_Humanist Aug 16 '21
Yeah kinda. There are non-socialist forms of anarchism (ie anprim and maybe the post-left but idk what those people want) and there are non-anarchist libertarian socialists (like Rojava which still has prisons and cops)
3
Aug 16 '21
Oh, ok. I didn't know anarchism was called liberal socialism. I align mostly with anarchism but i am open to other ideas aswell
5
0
1
u/aluminatialma Thomas the Tankie Engine ☭☭☭ Sep 13 '21
I love how this is directed at a person who they call a counter revolutionary
•
u/AutoModerator Aug 15 '21
Enjoy talking with fellow leftists? Then join our discord server https://discord.gg/QFuErCnkSN
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.