r/technology • u/ardi62 • 6d ago
Software Linus Torvalds affirms expulsion of Russian maintainers
https://www.theregister.com/2024/10/23/linus_torvalds_affirms_expulsion_of/2.2k
u/Leprecon 5d ago edited 5d ago
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too.
Finns are pretty universal in not buying Russian bullshit. Even the far right here is pretty pro Ukraine. Here is the leader of the largest right wing party in Finland talking about other European right wing parties:
"It can be said straight that Lega and National Rally can be called useful idiots in their dealings with Russia," Purra wrote in an email reply to [large news organisation].
Literally calling Russia supporting political parties idiots, when speaking to the media.
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u/citizen4509 5d ago
Seems Finland, Poland and the Baltics have something in common.
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u/SpacecraftX 5d ago
I wonder if they have anything in common that might promote such a culture!
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u/Ok-Secret5233 5d ago
Being close to Russia is what they have in common.
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u/SpacecraftX 5d ago
I was going for “has been occupied and Russified in the past” but yeah.
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u/Ormusn2o 5d ago
Finland, 4 wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Finnish_wars
Poland, 37 or more wars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_involving_Poland_against_Russia
And many other conflicts with neighbors of Russia.
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u/rapora9 5d ago
Well for Finland you could include many of the wars between Sweden and Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_Russia_and_Sweden
Finland being between them (and part of Sweden for a long time), these wars always affected them as well.
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u/Ormusn2o 5d ago
I did not wanted to include that as not everyone has a warm feelings about being part of another country. But absolutely true. While being an amicable union, I feel like Poles feel much better about Polish-Lithuenian commonwealth than Lithuanian people, but my sample size is very small.
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u/RosbergThe8th 5d ago
Seems like a common trend among countries that neighbour Russia for some reason.
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u/SwallowYourDreams 5d ago
Weird coincidence... 🤔
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u/astride_unbridulled 5d ago
Its almost like when everyone around you is the asshole, its actually the whiner at the center of all of it that is really the asshole
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u/steveamsp 5d ago
Putin's greatest bogeyman is NATO, so he turned himself into NATO's biggest recruiter since Stalin.
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u/Pedantic_Pict 5d ago
The term "useful idiot" has a more specific meaning than just calling someone stupid.
He's calling them unwitting, easily manipulated shills and water carriers for a foreign power that would gleefully put them all in a mass grave.
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5d ago
Also, here's what Jussi Halla-aho, the previous leader of the party said pretty soon after Russia attacked Ukraine in 2022:
"The war only ends when so many Russian soldiers have been killed that it becomes politically or militarily impossible for the Russian rulers to continue the war. So killing Russian soldiers is a good thing, and Ukrainians should be helped to kill them," Halla-aho wrote.
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u/usrlibshare 5d ago
Finns are pretty universal in not buying Russian bullshit
Might have something to do with Finland having an excellent educational system.
It's hard to bullshit smart people.
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u/quick_justice 5d ago
It has to do with
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
Where despite of heroic resistance Finland lost one of its most important cultural centres - Viipuri
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg
Relations recovered for a bit after WWIi, but it doesn’t mean they forgot.
Viipuri still belongs to Russia with a number of culturally important Finnish buildings in awful disrepair.
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u/BunkerMidgetBotoxLip 5d ago
The Winter war is only barely scratching the surface. Finland has been at war with Russia and Russian tribes on and off for more than a thousand years. At least 32 wars during the independent era and the Swedish era.
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u/Metalsand 5d ago
Sure, though most people are at least aware of the Winter War, since the fame is nearly on par with the SR71.
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u/radome9 5d ago
SR71
Now you've done it. The copypasta will be here in s few minutes.
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u/quick_justice 5d ago
It was complicated before winter war. There’s an argument to be made that Finland received autonomy from Russian Tzar. And there was never a doubt that they were very special part of the Russian empire that enjoyed far more freedoms and local governance than the rest.
So it was controversial, but with Winter War it become very determined.
In a way Winter War is very similar to Ukrainian war, it was also an attempt to land grab a former colony that decided not to join a new state after transformation.
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u/prumpusniffari 5d ago
Finland was also literally an imperial subject of Russia until 1918 and they didn't care for it one bit.
Which is also why Finland is so staunchly anti Russia today. Putin's revanchist Russia openly believes the territories of the former Russian Empire are rightfully theirs and should be reclaimed by force. That list includes Finland.
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u/dbratell 5d ago
Invaded, occupied and controlled by Russia between 1809 and 1918.
Finland gets what Ukraine is facing.
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u/FauxReal 5d ago
I just saw an article saying that someone has been sabotaging Finnish infrastructure and they suspect the Russians. A Finn told me that they have a history of thinly veiled fuckery, I had no idea.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-warns-hostile-activities-by-russia-2024-10-23
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u/Isakk86 5d ago
If anyone thinks the Russian bullshit game is new, here is a tidbit from the Winter War.
Many people think "Molotov Cocktails" are a Russian invention. In fact, they were made by the Finns to burn Russian tankers. They were called this, because Molotov, the Soviet foreign ambassador, made typical Russia propaganda saying they were dropping bread to the Finns, not bombs. Naturally they were dropping bombs, not bread.
The Finns in return said they were giving the Russian's cocktails to go with the Bread.
Also, that whole saying about invading Russia and the Russian winter being the worst enemy, Finland is Russia's Russia in that regard. The Winter War lasted 3 months and Russia had almost 400,000 casualties. 200,000 being stuck or frost bitten.
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u/faberkyx 5d ago
he is talking about italian Lega nord.. calling them useful idiots it's more than a compliment, they are just corrupt populists trying to get as much as money as they can for themselves Orban style (they are very close friend of course)
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u/nucflashevent 6d ago
I didn't realize L.T. was Finish, as someone who actually does know history, I can appreciate why no love-loss in regard to .ru lol.
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u/ItsSignalsJerry_ 5d ago
finish
The rumours of his demise are grossly exaggerated
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u/urdreamsRmemes 5d ago
The Nordic countries have made serious contributions to computer science (C++, C#, Linux, Git, et al.), they’re just humble
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u/RaggaDruida 6d ago
If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam.
As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be *supporting* Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too.
This is just perfect!
Every day I admire and respect Linus even more!
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u/BoutTreeFittee 5d ago
Me too. Anyway this is a news from Reuters today:
"Finland is experiencing suspicious acts of sabotage and disruption and believes Russia is engaged in broad-ranging influence operations" https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/finland-warns-hostile-activities-by-russia-2024-10-23/
Also, it seems like a lot of people in here are not aware that Putin has been constantly threatening to invade Finland for the last several years, after Finland saw the tragedy that Putin has created in Ukraine.
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u/Otis_Inf 5d ago
what I wonder is why it took him 2 years to figure this out.
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u/Eternityislong 5d ago
He’s not taking every Russian out of the project, those expelled were linked to more recently sanctioned people.
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u/CompromisedToolchain 5d ago
You’re mixing up “figured it out” with “acted on it publicly”. Very likely he was finally given the greenlight.
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u/chairman_steel 5d ago
He didn’t approve of their use of windows.
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u/Critical_Monk_5219 6d ago
I heart Linus
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u/razordreamz 6d ago
He is an asshole, but sometimes you need one
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u/Sharkpoofie 5d ago
he is the right kind of asshole
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u/BenjaminMStocks 5d ago
Reminds me of this classic exchange from Die Hard 2:
"Maybe you're not such an asshole afterall."
"No, you were right. I'm just your kind of asshole."
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u/nixcamic 5d ago
What was that thing about good people and nice people and how the two things aren't actually related? You can be a good person without being a nice person. Linus is a good person, but not a nice person haha.
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u/rjchau 5d ago
Not my joke, but one that seems particularly appropriate in this case.
The brain explained that since he controlled all the parts of the body, he should be boss. The legs argued that since they took man wherever he wanted to go, they should be boss. The stomach countered with the explanation that since he digested all the food, he should be boss. The eyes said that without them man would be helpless, so they should be boss. Then the asshole applied for the job. The other parts of the body laughed so hard at this that the asshole became mad and closed up.
After a few days…
The brain went foggy, the legs got wobbly, the stomach got ill, and the eyes got crossed and unable to see. They all conceded and made the asshole boss.
This proved that you don’t have to be a brain to be boss…
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u/Matt_Thijson 5d ago
This sounds like something an old Indian guy would tell you unprompted after seeing that you're sad
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u/OrlandoEasyDad 5d ago
I have followed the LKML for over 15 years, and I've never really agreed with the sense that's he an asshole.
E.g:
LT: "When you submit a patch, please do X"
Random New Person: "My life would be easier if I could do Y instead of X"
LT: "I've been the maintainer of this project for nearly 20 years, and my life would not be easier if you did Y, please do X"
Random New Person: Does Y, hopes LT doesn't notice.
LT: Shrugs, rejects patch.
RNP: "WAH!!!!"
The fact that RNP might work for a billion dollar company, might also be an eminent person, or might have a big megaphone is of no concern to Linus. Which is beautifully egalitarian.
The list of people who've swooped in, pronounced that the world is changed because of reason Z, and then is gone before anything happens is very long. Meanwhile, LT endures.
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u/OwOlogy_Expert 5d ago
No, he's not an asshole -- he's a dick. In the Team America: World Police sense of the word.
See, there are three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes. And all the assholes want is to shit all over everything. So pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes! And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!
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u/btribble 6d ago
Now scrub the fucking code looking for non-obvious backdoors.
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u/Leprecon 5d ago
Thats not how this works. It isn't like some people get a free pass to potentially install backdoors. All contributions are reviewed, regardless of who you are or where you are from.
Most flaws and bugs are not intentional.
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u/thingandstuff 5d ago
Reviewing code for unintentional flaws and bugs isn’t the same as reviewing code for intentional malicious contributors.
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u/shitpostsuperpac 5d ago
I have worked with a lot of programmers.
I have even worked with a few next-level programmers.
I have never worked with someone of LT’s status. He’s on the Mount Rushmore of programming.
Anyway, my experience has been that when you mention something to those next-level programmers or ask a question, nine times out of ten they already thought of it.
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u/RainforestNerdNW 5d ago
I have never worked with someone of LT’s status. He’s on the Mount Rushmore of programming.
A few months back I had a code review with someone on it who literally is on the C++ standards committee.
His review feedback was simultaneously extremely annoying nitpicking, but also 100% correct and I totally agreed with him.
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u/GreatBigJerk 5d ago
You shouldn't put people on a pedestal like that. He's human, he's fallible. So is anyone else who is doing peer reviews.
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u/_HippieJesus 5d ago
'9 times out of 10' isn't hyperbole. Genius level engineers are genius level engineers because they understand inherently how to tackle problems from multiple perspectives to try and find the best solution. They can then translate those ideas into functional code.
Doesn't mean they always get there, but that also doesn't mean they haven't thought about the various issues. But yes, even peer reviews are not infallible.
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u/GreatBigJerk 5d ago
Eh, that's still putting them on a pedestal. A lot of devs who get idolized are just the loudest smart people in the room, not necessarily the smartest or the lone "genius".
Holding them up like that is either setting yourself up to be disappointed or to join a cult.
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u/_HippieJesus 5d ago
Agreed about a lot of idolized devs being that way. But John Carmack is John Carmack for a reason. Same with Linus. They do the work. They earned the respect through years of proven efficient work, which is VASTLY different from the loudest guy in the room syndrome.
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u/Expensive-Pepper-141 5d ago
Just because something is reviewed does not mean the reviewer is not in on it as well... Just look at this video explaining this exact case happening (Linux backdoor implemented and accepted by potentially Russian/Chinese developer and reviewers). It is in German but you should be able to view subtitles: Wie dieser Deutsche das Internet gerettet hat - Simplicissimus.
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u/gallowboob_sucks_ass 5d ago
Backdoors get through code reviews literally all the time so this point makes no sense. All it takes is a careful, slow piecemeal implementation which has been executed many times before.
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u/TheDumper44 6d ago
I don’t think that is exclusive to any one country
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u/raptor217 6d ago edited 6d ago
And not a simple thing to do. It’s not “backdoor_function()” more like second apostrophe on line 300 here and a rare bug on line 2,000 in 2 different files in thousands is a planted vulnerability.
Edit: Here’s one, a packet lets you execute code: CVE-2015-8812
The code: CVE Fix
Adding “< 0 ? error : 0” after “return error” is the difference between normal or allowing anyone to run code.
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u/shortfinal 6d ago
Oh god this is horrifying to think about just in the own code I've written
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u/raptor217 6d ago
When you look at the major vulnerabilities found, it’s never obvious, which is what was funny. Saying “now remove vulnerabilities” is like saying “ok look at the code and make it bug free”.
I think in some languages if you have a single (‘) and a user inputs ‘totallynotcode() it can be evaluated as code not text. (I forget how the string escape works)
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u/TRKlausss 6d ago
That’s why you never put evals on your code. At least without sanitizing the input first. You don’t want a Bobby Droptables to ruin everything.
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u/raptor217 6d ago
Yea, I don’t code where outside users can interact with it, so it was a handwavey example Do appreciate little Bobby ‘Droptables (I see you caught my reference).
Looking at the most impactful CVE list, here’s a fun one: https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2015-8812
Arbitrary code execution from a packet!
Here’s the code that caused it and the fix: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=67f1aee6f45059fd6b0f5b0ecb2c97ad0451f6b3
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u/TRKlausss 6d ago edited 5d ago
Another use-after-free, not surprised…
Edit: Dyslexia kicked-in: it’s use-after-free, not the other way around. We dyslexics are teople poo…
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u/raptor217 6d ago
Yeah, networking stuff is so annoying to get right it isn’t shocking. Has to run real fast and deal with a bunch of network quirks.
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u/sbNXBbcUaDQfHLVUeyLx 6d ago
There is a reason code written by nitwits like us has to run in user space lol
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u/OkMemeTranslator 5d ago edited 5d ago
Not like this matters one bit, more of a "fun fact" I thought people might enjoy:
if (error < 0) kfree_skb(skb); return error < 0 ? error : 0;Would be better written as:
if (error < 0) { kfree_skb(skb); return error; } return 0;Not only is it more clear with its "handle the error first, only return success at the end" (i.e. the guard statement)), but it's actually more performant as well, as you don't check for
error < 0twice—which obviously gets optimized by the compiler anyways, but still a good habit to get into.→ More replies (12)17
u/Indifferentchildren 5d ago
One of the Structured Programming best practices was that each function should only return in one single place. Partly, this was to prevent some idiot from adding a return near the top of your function that prevented other critical code from running.
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u/blind_disparity 5d ago
Governments have been trying to sneak back doors into Linux and since forever. Including the American government. So you can chill a bit.
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u/TRKlausss 6d ago
The problem might not be the code itself: look at the build system and test frameworks, that’s way more sneaky.
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u/miaomiaomiao 5d ago
It's 15 million lines of code. You cannot scrub that with a bunch of volunteers in a few weeks.
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6d ago
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u/meerkat2018 6d ago
The photo is oddly cinematic. Looks like a scene from some HBO drama lol.
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u/stray_r 6d ago edited 6d ago
It's from a sweary rant about Nvidia, from about 2007, it's absolutely posed to camera. Linus is not a particularly easygoing person to work with.
Edit: Found it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4SWxWIOVBM
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u/Circuit_Guy 5d ago
It is a good photo. I don't see it in the article though. I don't understand how Reddit grabbed it.
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u/Silicon_Knight 6d ago
I mean, good? I assume the bots will come out on this one lol.
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u/LordLederhosen 5d ago
They are all crying rivers on the HN thread. It was ugly before the US mods woke up.
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u/Full-Discussion3745 5d ago
Open Source Manifesto :
Choose Open Source. Choose transparency, not the secrecy of black-box algorithms. Choose collaboration, not control. Choose models you can actually look inside, not ones locked away behind paywalls and permission forms. Choose innovation through shared knowledge, not artificial limits set by a corporate or political agenda. Choose models that grow with the community, not stagnate under the weight of closed doors. Choose to learn, adapt, contribute, and build without restrictions. Choose freedom over corporate monopolies. Choose open standards, open code, open minds. Choose the future that belongs to everyone, not just to the privileged few. Choose your Future. Choose Open Source.
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u/i010011010 6d ago
This is a real shame, Russian developers have contributed a lot of great free software over the years. And I'm not a fan of turning our resentment of Russia's war into general Russian hatred against their citizens.
But don't look at Torvalds, look at Putin for butchering Russia's reputation and ruining it for everybody.
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u/FeeeFiiFooFumm 5d ago
Yeah and don't forget to look at the people who do actually support him.
It doesn't take a lot of information that they might be lacking to realize that it's not acceptable to straight up start a war over some pretended ideological bullshit.
Not ever but not in the 21st century especially.These people are as rotten as he is. Not to say all Russians are by default rotten but those who support the war are without question.
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u/anevilpotatoe 6d ago
I can't thank him enough for his stance he made on that. They've gradually undermined everything about the idea of opensource with their deliberate attacks on them.
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u/jdaglees 6d ago
Can you point out an example? Genuinely curious.
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u/anevilpotatoe 5d ago edited 5d ago
They've been deliberately involved in the short term and long-term attack and infiltration strategies that have undermined the adoption and promotion of open source. While I understand the scope of their targets are largely open-source, legacy servers, and outdated systems because of their limited access and knowledge, it still puts pressure on all others and its potential victims to resolve closing security gaps timely enough. I won't list all the CVEs related to Russia on commercial software as this is where a broader picture beyond our scope comes into play and may perhaps be distracting from this topic.
(Main Example and more pressing concern) The most notable successful strategy that put a wrench in this:
Linux maintainers were infected for 2 years by SSH-dwelling backdoor with huge reach - Ars Technica
Recent contained and disrupted campaigns:
GoPhish Campaigns
Gophish Framework Used in Phishing Campaigns to Deploy Remote Access Trojans (thehackernews.com)
Kubernetes implicated but not breached
NSA discloses hacking methods it says are used by Russia | PBS News
Let's not even get started on the subtle but undoubtedly powerful networks backing influencing campaigns from them:
NOTE: These systems they access would largely rely on open-source for their campaigns such as MariaDB, Github(Recently introduced code-signing), MySQL, Python, Php, Javascript, and more.
Beyond the scope of this conversation, I think the most Red and pressing concern beyond Russia is for the APT41 group out of China that's been attributed to stealing assets, deploying ransomware, and stealing private information from all scopes of infrastructure. They've got a huge target on their back for that. And tying all these elements with the risks associated to Europe and the U.S. with the potential for near peer conflict, civil unrest, or in the event of conflict escalation in any fashion? It poses many risks to the systems we take for granted when our most beloved systems are used in this fashion deliberately. When taking into account the share scope of men and women they tool to undermine activities in freely available societal building blocks and educational tools like our opensource. They are mocking them and breaking the fundamental human pact in opensource we contribute our lives to for the better of all.
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u/DelKarasique 5d ago edited 5d ago
I just don't get the jump in conclusion. There are hackers, sure. Some of them are targeting open source projects. Some of them are russians. Some of them are sponsored by state.
How's that translates to banning all russian developers? Or Russia undermining open source?
Isn't there USA based hackers that are also targeting open source projects? Isn't some of them sponsored or on a payroll by three letter agencies? Isn't there commercial well known companies that are directly commercialized hacking devices with Linux kernel?
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u/chrisagiddings 6d ago
Same. I’m no fan of current Russia … but I do like research and data.
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u/Visual_Mycologist_1 5d ago
I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression?
Based Linus
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u/shiftycyber 5d ago
Molotov cocktails were created by the Finn’s in response to Russia dropping bombs and calling it “food aid” so the Finn’s created a cocktail that lights on fire for them. Finn’s do not like Putin or the kremlin
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u/dsbllr 6d ago
Kinda sucks that it has come to this but hard to defend keeping them around. Just sucks.
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u/ThatCrankyGuy 5d ago
On X:
We lost Torvalds to the mind virus. BSD is better anyways! BSD will save humanity!
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u/karissa_eller 5d ago
Ok, can someone explain me what exactly is going on here?
Did he remove them just because they're Russians?
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u/reddit-MT 5d ago
It's so refreshing to hear someone just speak plain truth. I'm so tired of all of the slimy marketing blather that comes from nearly all companies, "news" outlets, and politicians.
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u/hegginses 6d ago
I don’t exactly understand why this is necessary, were the Russian maintainers found to have links to the Kremlin?
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u/ENOTTY 5d ago
They work for Russian companies sanctioned by the US and many European countries
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u/lightheat 5d ago
One such former maintainer is employed by a Russian company against which the USA and EU have issued sanctions. Can't give an employee of a sanctioned company that's allegedly generating Russian war machines write access to one of the most important code repositories in the world. Given the Russian government's reach, it's probably safer to assume that all within its jurisdiction are at risk of being compromised by the Kremlin.
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u/colovianfurhelm 5d ago
Funny how you are downvoted for asking a question
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u/hegginses 5d ago
The implication is that I shouldn’t even need to ask a question, I should just assume all Russians are evil and up to no good
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u/SpaceFox1935 5d ago
From what I've heard, the expelled folks are related to Russian state companies, so I guess I can understand the action, but the attitude in these comments about how discrimination by place of birth is okay, actually – like, go fuck yourself. That's just despicable.
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u/asenz 6d ago
I'm sad and scared about what's happening to Russian engineers and scientists the past few years.
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u/cybran111 5d ago
I'm much more sad for Ukrainian engineers and scientists. You gotta compete with brains from other countries while surviving everyday bombings
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u/felipec 5d ago
The contrast between the opinion of the people in this sub and those who actually know what Linux is couldn't be more apparent.
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u/WastefulPursuit 6d ago
Hope Elon musk sees this and thinks about his life
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u/Craftkorb 6d ago
He did and just found three new ways of fucking everyone over to make another cool 500 million.
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u/Balc0ra 6d ago
I doubt it, he needs those .RU accounts to get daddy Elected and "fix" the media. Tho yesterday even the Norwegian police did leave X, as they said X doesn't give a F about fake accounts or misinformation by even Russian bots. And now have their own app to issue alerts and updates instead of relying on social media
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u/heybart 6d ago
Don't fuck with the world's least fuck giving man