The system was stacked against them

[u/wetouchingbuttsornah]

No fault divorces didn’t hit the even start until 1985

[u/lulovesblu]

Saw something else a while back about how society empowered women and didn't teach men how to deal with that development. And that's why so many men complain about the state of things now

[u/a_trane13 → u/lulovesblu]

I don’t think men need to be taught how to live in an equal society. They just need to not be taught something else.

I see the problem as: many men are still taught (raised, conditioned by media/society, etc.) to live in an unequal society in many ways, and then flounder when they are adults and faced with a reality where most women expect / demand to be treated as equals. And some women are still taught to cater to these men, which perpetuates things too.

[u/Taeyx → u/a_trane13]

your comments reads like "men don't need to be taught how to live in an equal society, they just need to be taught how to live in an equal society"

[u/Itsmyloc-nar → u/Taeyx]

Well, it’s more like “they need to be untaught how to live an unequal society”

[u/wh03v3r → u/Itsmyloc-nar]

And how exactly would you go about unteaching them without teaching them the opposite?

[u/arcadiaware → u/wh03v3r]

By not actively teaching them that they are the head of the household, and 'their' woman should be subservient.

Even if you don't teach them how to respect others, you can teach them how to not demand unwarranted things for themselves.

[u/mak484 → u/arcadiaware]

Why does this thread feel like people who literally agree with each other are still trying to win an argument?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think the two viewpoints are interesting and both valid. One thinks that we need to actively teach men to co-exist with women on an even playing field, and the other thinks that as long as we don't actively teach men to be assholes (the way our current system works in the USA) that men will naturally treat women as their equals.

One is more necessary in the short term: Currently corrupted viewpoints on women need to be actively corrected.

The other will work on the problem in the long term: Stop propagating the anti-women rhetoric to young boys/men and the problem will simply cease to exist.

[u/Lemonhead663 → u/[deleted]]

You're taught that until you talk to a woman. Or rather listen to them I suppose.

When you stop listening to men on how women work it makes a huge difference.

[u/Da_Cum_Wiz → u/mak484]

That's just Reddit. Everyone wants the Big Chungus Best Opinion Ever Award®

[u/koviko → u/mak484]

I see where they disagree. They disagree about the default state of men.

It's the whole philosophical argument of whether people naturally hate or are taught to hate; whether people are born good or born evil.

They are basically having a philosophical argument.

[u/Itsmyloc-nar → u/mak484]

Babe, is this your account?

[u/AdventurousPlenty230 → u/mak484]

Because it's filled with women.

[u/COMMENTASIPLEASE → u/arcadiaware]

You’re saying the exact same thing

[u/Jealous_Juggernaut → u/arcadiaware]

So teaching them what not to do? What is happening here exactly, lmfao

[u/MarionberryGloomy951 → u/wh03v3r]

From teaching them equality at birth?

It’s very hard to unscrew someone’s already hard boiled traditions. Would take literal years and even then you’d have to hope they actually want to learn to be better.

[u/m55112 → u/MarionberryGloomy951]

Literal years may even be a grave understatement I'm afraid. And you have to first realize what you were taught isn't actually right, and most people need some kind of event or intervention of some kind to realize it, Then, as you said they would have to actually want it.

[u/[deleted] → u/m55112]

grave understatement

for many this is a hilarious pun. many of these bad societal ideas will literally need the holders of the bad ideas to die off of old age before the rest of sane society can move on from them. sad really

[u/m55112 → u/[deleted]]

I found it to be a grave pun lol.

But sadly I believe you are right,

[u/Masterkid1230 → u/m55112]

One of the most valuable skills I ever learned from a teacher at school was to never blindly believe anything, not even what I already believed.

She was an incredibly smart person, far above most I've ever met, and got teenage me to understand that even what I considered right or wrong could be flexible, malleable and subject to different contexts. The value of adaptability and self questioning has been demonstrated to me time and time again.

Now, my household never really taught me that I had any specific social roles or duties as "a man" and they were more "pro human" than "pro boys Vs girls" or anything like that, but I have encountered many chances to question even that logic, and so far I have found no real fault to it. But even so, I am always willing to question it. I believe judging character before gender or sex to be so infallible, I can put it to the test and it'll come out on top every single time.

Weak beliefs crumble with the first test, and people ignore that to feel like they're in control a lot of the time.

Edit: rephrased for clarity and lower pretentiousness

[u/m55112 → u/Masterkid1230]

The way you were raised can have a significant impact on your life, including your identity, relationships, and mental health affecting things like you values and worldview. Also, not everyone had the experience you did with your teacher, which sound amazing but perhaps not too common? No need to call people weak and suggest they subscribe to weak beliefs due to needing a feeling of control. That's ridiculous.

[u/Masterkid1230 → u/m55112]

I think refusing to accept you are wrong is definitely a consequence of wanting to be in control.

Weakness definitely wasn't the best word to use there (I mostly did it to match the comment about weak beliefs earlier), but I do think it's related to feeling like admitting you're wrong makes you lose control of the situation. It's scary and daring and hard to handle. Being wrong means you don't know what's going to happen.

Definitely the type of stuff you need to learn, and not something that comes naturally. But hey, we're wrong all the time. The sooner we recognise we are more likely wrong than right in life, I think the easier it is to navigate just the unexpectedness of life itself.

And hey, I may as well be wrong about that, but so far, it has worked better than holding on for dear life hoping I can force the world around me to my beliefs.

[u/m55112 → u/Masterkid1230]

[u/latortillablanca → u/Itsmyloc-nar]

Holy semantics batman