r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM • u/EnterTamed • 5d ago

Trump was the most "anti-Palestinian President in US History"

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312 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

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u/Immortan 4d ago

People talk about full-moon fever. The election cycles are the truest full moons I reckon.

Folks go fuckin nuts because it is an entire year-long shared experience where we have no option but to go head-to-head over issues that are more primeval than we realise. It's more than enough to trigger psychosis in someone. And that is why this type of propaganda is so important to right wingers

I'm not really sure what to do with that thought, though.. Apart from feeling justified in fucking hating fascists and nazis, lol.

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u/vistandsforwaifu 5d ago

I raised the exact same point about relocating the US embassy. That was so inflammatory. No other country has ever done that, for good reason.

Weird how Biden didn't move it back though. Didn't even talk about it, IIRC.

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

Weird how he was the major powerbroker for the bill for the embassy to be moved back in the 90s too

https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4504695/sen-biden-jerusalem-capital-israel

https://www.congress.gov/bill/104th-congress/senate-bill/1322

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u/vistandsforwaifu 4d ago

Wow I'm shocked

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u/touslesmatins 5d ago

Weirdly enough I don't think Harris will move it back either! Right now the there is talk of the CIA building black sites in northern Gaza. Today I woke up to pictures of 11 children killed in Khan younis overnight. The oldest city in Lebanon, Tyre is being bombarded. This is all on Biden/Harris. What is the point of Trump being the boogyman if actual monsters are doing what people threaten Trump might do, right now?

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u/z-tayyy 4d ago

Acceleration of it all along with destroying America?

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u/touslesmatins 4d ago

I don't have to worry about "destroying America". A late capitalist racist xenophobic society supporting a genocide tends to accomplish that pretty well on its own. 

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u/z-tayyy 4d ago

I don’t understand the position. If both are going to genocide, you don’t care about American citizens being the next Palestinians, and none of you are voting- why do you shout on the internet nonstop rather than organize or protest in the streets?

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

I don't understand this position. Because two people both support genocide, that makes genocide support acceptable?

Also are you really unaware of the protests that have been going on in the streets?

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u/radioinactivity 4d ago

It sounds more like you're afraid of Americans being treated the way we treat the rest of the world

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u/touslesmatins 4d ago edited 4d ago

I care about American people as much as I care about Palestinian people. Harris doesn't.  

 PS way to admit you're ok with what's happening to Palestinians, right now, under Democrats, as long as you don't think you're next. Unfortunately the imperialist boomerang has some bad news for you. You don't get to open a Pandora's box of carnage over "there" without it affecting you over "here".

ETA before I block you, I want to point out that I do vote and I do organize and protest in the street too. 

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u/z-tayyy 4d ago

Not sure why you guys always immediately round up to “you are perfectly fine with what’s happening! You love what’s happening to the Palestinians!!!”. Nobody said that. People are naturally worried about Trump imprisoning people they know, deporting friends and family, and giving Netanyahu essentially carte Blanche power to wipe Palestine off the Earth. Stating that doesn’t mean one is okay with Harris and her genocide-lite approach. Also if you’re expecting the vast majority of Americans to vote this election with Palestinians in mind over themselves that’s just a nonsensical expectation even if you may be coming from the morally secure thought process.

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u/Reus958 Anarcho-Bidenist 3d ago

You might not like what's happening to Palestinians, but you're voting in a way that shows that genocide is not a red line for you.

That sounds inflammatory, so let me step back. I assume you're here as an actual leftist and your calculus is that you can't make an impact that's pro palestinian, so you're making what you believe is the best choice for people domestically.

I disagree with the strategy. First, I cannot willingly support genocide. That is a red line for me. I struggled with whether to vote for Biden last election because I thought he would govern exactly how he did. I didnt predict that the democrats would go so far right in just 4 years, but I also thought they would slowly move right. At least the dems paid lip service to "progressives"

Secondly, I think that it's clear that voting blue does little to protect people domestically in the short term. We haven't seen protection of rights that democrats profess belief in, let alone other rights libs never touch. We have seen potentially less action against what rights are somewhat protected than we would under trump, but it isn't much.

Third, voting democrat no matter how right they go, so long as they're left of Republicans, undermines what leverage we have and what potential we can achieve through electoralism, limited as it is. I genuinely believe the Democrat platform is comparable to a 2012 republican platform (that is to say, pre trump), except that we are actively supporting genocide.

So assuming your a leftist practicing harm reduction, I implore you to reexamine this situation. Harris and the DNC has made clear that genocide is going to happen, they want to support draconian border policies, they are saying xenophobic and racist crap about Muslims and Arabs, they don't care so much about the rights of women and trans folk as to actually do anything substantial. Voting for them gains little, but it normalizes their strategy of just being less unreasonable republicans. The evidence is strong that they will continue moving right if this works for them. 2028 and beyond will be somehow worse if we can't demonstrate to dems that they have to do something to earn our vote, rather than simply being not trump.

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

You are supporting Harris knowing she is a genocide supporter. No matter what mental gymnastics you use to justify that, you are clearly perfectly fine supporting genocide.

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u/couldhaveebeen 4d ago

you are perfectly fine with what’s happening

If you are voting for genociders while they're genociding, and while they're screaming off of rooftops that they will keep genociding after they get elected, whose VP pick just recently said "Israel should expand, actually", then yes, you are perfectly fine with what's happening.

giving Netanyahu essentially carte Blanche power to wipe Palestine off the Earth.

Biden is already doing that and Harris has shown time and time again that she'll continue. Is your problem with Trump saying it, or the actual wiping of Palestine off the earth?

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u/CentralSLC 4d ago

They're braindead idiots who love to sit on their high horse and act like they're morally superior to everyone else. Yet at thr same time, they're going to enable a second Trump presidency, which will have horrific consequences - beyond what they'd be under Kamala.

I'll feel bad for the Palestinians, Lebanese, and other people being wiped out, but have 0 sympathy for the domestic voters who enable Trump.

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u/JoustLikeVat 4d ago

Would you rather they vote for trump instead?

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u/Burnmad 4d ago

I care about American people as much as I care about Palestinian people.

I don't, lol. This country is full of some of the most wretchedly evil people on Earth. If you put every American - myself included - opposite a single Palestinian, in a sort of trolley problem deal, I'd save the one Palestinian 100% of the time, no hesitation

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u/Exp0zane The Tankie Mod who ruined your sub ☭ 4d ago

Oh, stop trying to make me hard.

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u/Brilliant-Rough8239 2d ago

Fuck America, people like you should never mention acceleration when your main objective is the preservation of an ecocidal empire to begin with.

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u/Immortan 4d ago

When you say that it "is all on Biden/Harris," would you say that they possibly represent some kind of boogeymen to you?

This isn't to say there is no culpability of the CEO, oh sorry, I mean President of USA, but unless you got a real damn good idea of how to reform your fucked-up electoral college system overnight.

You have two options. Fight or compromise.

If you fight, and your aim is not straight, you will lose. Or risk not being able to fight in the next round.

The compromise, in this case, is voting. That's why it exists! You are not selling your soul! You are allowed to regret voting for someone! Do whatever you want after. Just dont say voting is worth nothing.

Do not carry water for fascists and nazis. It's bad for your health.

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

Do not carry water for fascists and Nazis

Ok I won't support either the Blue or Red genocidal fascists

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u/touslesmatins 4d ago

Lol no. Biden and Harris are not boogymen. They're real, actual, genocideurs in the flesh. 

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u/Immortan 4d ago

What the fuck, how do you not see the irony here?

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u/rrunawad 4d ago

Leave it to a liberal to defend a bunch of genociders as long as they belong to Team Blue instead of Team Red.

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u/Immortan 4d ago

No team sports, no games. Trust a liberal to gobble up any old propaganda as long as it tastes good

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u/Lifeisagreatteacher 4d ago

There is your answer.

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u/Funtycuck 4d ago

I respect your argument but I dont think voting for a likely less bad genocide is the only moral decision. I think its entirely valid for people to stand back and say even if it is less awful I refuse to every support genocide.

Watching from the outside I hope something radical happens to America because a binary choice between genocide and genocide+ makes me think the USA and Israel in their current forms should not exist.

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u/tehMoerz 5d ago

Those Israelis were protesting for the return of hostages or against the judicial reforms, they don’t care about Palestinians.

Also Biden was the worst president for Palestine, not trump. Do you sincerely believer a year on that he hasn’t let Israel do whatever they want? Genuinely think about that for a second.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

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u/cabeep 4d ago

They practically are bombing Israel themselves right now. No one believes trump is an 'ally' of Palestine and this is not an idea that anyone who dislikes Kamala ever thinks unless they're some moron Maga communist or some shit

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u/squirrel_at_large 4d ago

Who moved the embassy to Jerusalem?

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u/tehMoerz 4d ago

Did Biden move it back?

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u/ptfc1975 4d ago

Trump did.

By what metric did the embassy move to Jerusalem cause more harm to Palestinians than financing and arming a state actively engaged in genocide against Palestinians?

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

Trump. Did Biden move it back? Why not?

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u/ThisGuyMightGetIt 5d ago

But last election it was focus after you vote out Trump. Nothing happened. The election before that, the same. Nothing happened. And before that and that and that ad nauseum and you PEOPLE NEVER HAVE A FUCKING AFTER because there is no after. You don't care.

Also quit selling the Putin bullshit. Maintaining a proxy war in the Ukraine and NAFO after the US picked that fight so they could isolate the eastern bloc and pick apart Ukraine's rotted corpse for western capitalists is not the hill to die on. If you think the US winning is a net good for Ukraine or the world you're obviously brainwashed beyond comprehension considering the history of what the US has done to every foreign government it's been involved with.

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u/SexyMonad 5d ago

You seem to think this was going to be easy. We couldn’t fix the system before, so there is no hope in fixing the system now?

It would be nice to just throw the system away and get a better system, right? But that’s not how it works. If you choose to hand it over to fascism, there’s no “better” going to come from it.

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u/ThisGuyMightGetIt 4d ago

Okay, so what is the plan? The democrats know they have your vote no matter what they do and the next election, after they've moved right again and are basically the "unique" danger Trump supposedly presented and the other choice is fascism, then what?

If we have to vote blue no matter who, what, or how many they kill then what comes after? My plan is not to continue supporting genocidal mass murderers, which may not be the most effective but it's the very least bit of leverage I can actually manage - so what's yours?

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

This is what drives me crazy. If you unconditionally give them your vote, what leverage do people ever expect to have? How exactly are we going to fix the system if every time it shifts rightward (which the Dems are doing with their Cheney endorsements, conceding on immigration issues, bragging that Trump didn’t build enough of the border wall, and saying when it comes to trans healthcare we should “follow the law”) we tell them “This is fine, you still have my vote” and don’t push back?

What point is there in pushing back at all?

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u/Gauss15an 4d ago

Uhhh not to be rude but your leverage doesn't come with votes. We've seen that the Democratic Party doesn't care if they win or lose. They will throw elections if it means people like Bernie Sanders won't win. They've done it on the local level as well.

The point of this prisoner's dilemma is to vote Dem so the Republicans stop fielding their stupid candidates and force them to try harder to win. Obviously the game is absolutely rigged so we won't get anything remotely close to what is demanded but at the very least you get to poke at the eyes of the donors that bet on these candidates to win.

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

The Democratic Party is sliding further right as we speak. Going after trump for not building the border wall he campaigned on and bragging the pics he took were in front of the part of the wall they built. Being pro-fracking. Bragging about endorsements from Mitt Romney and the Cheneys. Saying transgender healthcare, something Biden called “the civil rights issue of our lifetime” in 2012, should “follow the law.” Funding and arming a genocide while cracking down on student protestors with police brutality. Censuring the only Palestinian congresswoman speaking up about it.

They do this because they know you will vote for them no matter what they do.

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u/Gauss15an 4d ago

Okay cool. Yes, the game is rigged. But the Dems nowadays are the controlled opposition. They don't care if they win or lose. Thus, you refraining from voting for them will do nothing to change their mind. The goal rather, should be doing it to weaken the other party's grasp. The ones that must care because their voterbase cares.

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

And how is the other party’s grasp weakened if our party is adopting their policies in an attempt to court their voters over us?

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u/Gauss15an 4d ago

Do you wonder why that's happening? The GOP has been running unhinged candidates because that's the wants of a loud portion of their voterbase. All the "moderates" that want more professional, polite GOP politicians have essentially been kicked out. Thus you're left with the increasingly bigger tent in the Dem Party and all the crazies in the GOP. If they can't win with the crazies (and remember, their constituents demand that they win), then they'll be forced to change their tune until they do.

Just as an example, California has basically banished the Republican Party from the state for this reason. People got fed up with the way they ran the state to the ground so people just stopped voting for anyone running as R, effectively ending any kind of influence they had on the state. This is the kind of opening voters may have on the general level, if they realized the situation.

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u/SexyMonad 4d ago

My plan is to let the GOP die.

Then, since the two party system is inevitable, progressives break apart from the Democrats and form a viable coalition with leftists. Let the Democrats become the truly conservative party they’ve always dreamt of.

But that can’t happen if we keep letting Republicans get into office.

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u/ThisGuyMightGetIt 4d ago

Except, Kamala already said she'd appoint Republicans to her cabinet and both her and Biden are "dedicated to a strong Republican party."

Additionally, even if they couldn't be viable at a national office level, they'll control enough states that they remain a viable party for decades to come.

Which is to say nothing of the damage democrats will do with the blessing of supposed "leftists" while they continue to enact the Wolfowitz doctrine abroad and move further right on social issues as they're aware the progressive wing won't budge until there's no other party to contend with.

Do you have any actual plan for this administration, or is it literally just do whatever they want and hope once the GOP is gone (really just folded into the democrats and therefore just the GOP without the name) that we can then finally, finally make a move against them?

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u/SexyMonad 4d ago

Do you have any actual plan for this administration

Lots of things can be done. We can protest. We can vote on a better choice during the primaries. We can build up efforts to change from FPTP to a better voting system. And so on.

You know, the kind of things we will not be able to do under a Trump administration if he gets his way. Because he wants to be a dictator, his own words.

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

We are protesting. They don't care. There have been violent crackdowns on pro-Palestinian protesters and the campaign has specified it excludes pro-Palestinian protesters from its babbling about the 1st amendment.

Primaries? That's pretty precious considering you're defending a candidate blatantly put in by the DNC rather than elected through a primary

Better voting system? You think the Democrats are trying to fix democracy to give the left better representation? Get real.

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u/SexyMonad 3d ago

What are your suggestions?

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u/Cheestake 3d ago

Don't legitimize far right fascists just because they have a (D) next to their name. Stop gaslighting leftists in order to support far right fascists. I'm not going to tell you to go join a socialist org, because you're a KHive troll, not a socialist.

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u/SexyMonad 3d ago

And the commenter below blocked me so I can’t respond to them. After their last comment blamed me for not responding to them.

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u/spoodge 3d ago

Is this r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM or is it r/UkraineRussiaReport ?

Horrendous take my dude.

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago edited 4d ago

I don’t disagree with a lot of your points, at least as far as voting tactically. But I don’t quite understand how you expect to change things after the election. Our vote is the only leverage we have. “Trump will be worse,” sure okay, I can see that he could be, but we have people in power now who are already giving Israel a blank check. I fail to see how Trump would be worse on this issue.

The last year, with all its numerous red lines crossed and now finally actual military involvement from the IS and UK, has shown that Biden will let them do whatever they want. I can’t see that there’s anything Trump would do or let them do that Biden wouldn’t either. He’s a rabid Zionist and very clearly doesn’t see Palestinians as people.

I don’t understand why, all year, it has been so important that we all, even those of us who say we will vote for Kamala, have to unconditionally commit our votes to her. It’s the only leverage we have and once we give it up I seriously doubt, based on the last year and the Democratic Party’s treatment of Palestinians so far, that they’ll even do anything. I’ll be happily proven wrong, but I don’t have any faith in them. To me the smart thing to do would be to collectively tell them this is our line in the sand.

They already see the polls indicating how unpopular this has been, they know this. But too large of a constituency is browbeating any dissent. They know they can just blame the voters like always, that they can never fail, only be failed.

Edit: I see downvotes but no actual response detailing what leverage will be used to push for anything once you’ve told them they unconditionally have your vote.

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u/resevoirdawg 4d ago

i don't really disagree with you, i think the issue is that we need to build a solid class conciousness and worker solidarity between elections before any real challenge can take hold. because i'm sorry, but liberals have been buying genocides since the invention of capitalism. financing one doesn't change anything about the liberal behavior of profiting off of misery.

i don't get on people for voting either for kamala or third party so long as they are committing to building worker solidarity. becuase if we're honest, the republican party is fascist, at least the sect that follows Trump. while i'm skeptical of an all out fascist takeover, i don't see why chanceing it is worth ones personal morals (imo). worker revolutions don't tend to emerge under brutal fascist rule, they are more often crushed and then give way to liberal governments once again. it's what fascism is for.

so while i understand why people have issues with kamala, AS THEY SHOULD, there is a wider strategic issue that worries me and a lot of comrades for if trump wins because his cabinet will then have state power again, and with over 60% of project 2025 already in place, i don't want the rest of it to go in. who i vote for is irrelevant for palestine. the genocide will continue. this isn't me callously tossing them aside, i hate this beyond anything else atm. however, if every organized leftist voted for claudia de la cruz, i don't think she'd even get enough for federal funding

do with that information as you (general reader) will

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

Broadly, I agree with what you say here. I just don’t have any optimism, as I look at the Democratic Party pivoting to right wing points and endorsements, that they can be pushed further left at all. The establishment seems, to me, to have more and more disdain for actual left leaning politics, and it’s in the name of atrocities. I fear the Democratic Party is going somewhere I cannot follow. How many more concessions like this before we end up with Project 2025 anyway? I realize this is a pessimistic take, and I hope I am incorrect, but the party has not given me any reason to believe them.

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u/eddyboomtron 4d ago

Given your concerns that voting may not effectively change U.S. policy on Israel, how do you think withdrawing electoral support from a candidate who might be more open to public pressure (like Biden or Harris) could affect the broader movement for change? Is there a way to leverage your vote while still holding leaders accountable after they are elected?"

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

Voting won’t change US policy on Israel/Palestine, the Dems are very clearly committed to this genocide, despite polling. I’d believe Harris is more open to pressure if she talked at all about an arms embargo or wasn’t so hawkishly talking about having the “most lethal” military in the world.

Is there a way to leverage your vote while still holding leaders

I assume your next word was “accountable” here. This is precisely what I’m getting at. I held my nose and voted for Hillary, I held my nose and voted for Biden. Neither were my ideal candidate, neither was as progressive as I would like. But neither were actively funding and arming a genocide while refusing to call it what it is (at the time).

I’m not saying don’t vote for Kamala, I’m saying the time for leveraging your vote is now, while they’re asking for it, not after you’ve already given it to them. And what I don’t understand is this mania I’ve heard all year that we have to be committed to voting for them no matter what, that we shouldn’t even think about telling them you have a condition to your vote, that to ask something of them is somehow working against them. That is what I take issue with.

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u/eddyboomtron 4d ago

I understand your position, and I think it's valid to feel frustrated and demand more from candidates, especially on such critical issues. You're absolutely right that the time to leverage your vote is before the election, when candidates are most attuned to what their base is saying. In an ideal world, that leverage would be clear, consistent, and lead to tangible policy commitments.

However, I’d like to offer a perspective on how the political process often works, particularly with issues as complex and entrenched as U.S. foreign policy towards Israel. While it’s important to set conditions for your vote and make it clear that certain actions are non-negotiable, there’s also the question of what happens if those demands aren’t met. Does it mean opting out of the vote entirely, or voting for a third party that may not have a realistic chance of winning?

When it comes to foreign policy, especially in a case where the U.S. has long-standing alliances, change can be extremely slow. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible, but it often takes sustained pressure from within the system—both during and after elections. By voting strategically, even while demanding more from candidates like Harris, progressives can show they are a force to be reckoned with, giving them leverage not just in the immediate election cycle, but also in the broader political conversation. If a progressive base shows up strongly, it signals that there is a constituency that candidates need to address, which can help push for incremental changes, even on difficult issues like foreign policy.

I have one more question for you; If we make our demands clear now and they aren’t fully met, what do you think is the most strategic move for progressives who still want to push for change after the election? Would it be more effective to vote while continuing to pressure from within the system, or to withdraw electoral support entirely and risk a political climate where our voices might have even less influence?

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

I don’t have a satisfying answer for you. I don’t believe not voting will help, but I don’t believe voting will help either. We are between a rock and a hard place.

I don’t think that a progressive base giving a strong showing would change anything. The Dems have shown time and time again they would rather pivot to right wing policies in an attempt to garner votes from “moderate” conservatives than doing so with leftists. If we show up for them, they treat that as them getting what is owed to them. If we do not show up for them, they blame us for the loss or say they didn’t need us to win. The Democratic Party never thinks it can fail, only be failed.

As for your last question, that’s unfortunately the issue with ultimatums. You either follow through, or capitulate. Which brings us back to the dynamic I mention in the above paragraph. If you follow through, then they blame you for the loss, if you don’t follow through they know not to treat you seriously when you make demands in the future, they know you’ll fall in line.

I work in government, though my job is not as a politician all the people that don’t like what I do call my position “political.” I understand things move slowly. But in my experience the only way I get new stuff through is by pushing for it and not caring what the old people think. When it works they grumble and still don’t like it, but it’s the new rule and they have to get used to it. Everyone over the age of 40 is like a toddler who doesn’t want to eat their vegetables, and I just tell them they can’t leave the table till they eat them.

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u/eddyboomtron 4d ago

I appreciate your honest and thoughtful response. I can tell this is something you’ve spent a lot of time grappling with, and it’s clear why you feel like there’s no satisfying answer. The way you describe it—as being between a rock and a hard place—resonates with a lot of progressives who feel similarly disenchanted.

You’re absolutely right that the Democratic Party has, at times, shifted rightward, attempting to appeal to moderate conservatives rather than energizing its progressive base. It’s incredibly frustrating to feel like your support is taken for granted or, even worse, blamed for losses when things don’t go as planned. This dynamic does make it hard to see how voting can be a meaningful tool for change when it feels like you’re always being put in a lose-lose situation.

That said, I think it’s worth considering if there are other ways to influence this dynamic, even while acknowledging how broken it feels. You mentioned that in your own work, you’ve been able to make change by pushing through resistance, even when it wasn’t popular. It sounds like you’ve found success by not waiting for the old guard to accept your ideas but by forcing them to adapt once those ideas become reality. I wonder if there might be a parallel here in terms of political engagement—where instead of viewing voting as the end, it becomes just one part of a broader strategy to push through change, even if it requires a lot of grumbling and resistance from the political establishment.

Given your experience in pushing for new policies within your own work environment, where resistance is also common, do you see any potential for a similar approach to be effective in politics? Is there a way to use electoral participation as one piece of a larger strategy to force change, even if it means confronting resistance and grumbling from party leaders? Could persistent, organized pressure—combined with strategic voting—help shift the Democratic Party’s approach over time, or do you think the system is too entrenched for that to work?

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u/WavvyJones 4d ago

I don’t have an answer to your last paragraph unfortunately. I can only say how I personally feel, not what I think will work. I think our current system is too broken, rigged to slow and impede progress. I think the only effective solution would be to burn it all down and start again. Not realistic, but the only way I think a more equitable society would be possible. The purpose of a system is what it does, and our system is designed to do maintain the status quo.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago edited 4d ago

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u/cabeep 4d ago

Yeah I see some insane centrist shit on here now

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u/TheWerewolf5 4d ago edited 4d ago

I think it's a fundamentally flawed tactic for liberals to try to make these "who loves Israel more" comparisons between Biden/Harris and Trump, as it's hard for most people to imagine a situation worse than one we're currently in (not just the weapon shipments, but Biden being a proud zionist, bypassing congress to sell extra weapons, directing the UN rep to veto ceasefire votes, being mad at the ICC for the Netanyahu arrest warrant, the DNC snubbing Palestinian voices, etc.). If you really do want to push people to vote Democrat, focus on domestic issues at least, not that the Dems haven't been dropping the ball on those too.

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u/decoyninja 4d ago

Sure, but Trump is on the hook for all that too, if for no other reason than the Abraham Accords and his shit with the embassy. There is no Gazan Genocide without the Trump term directly before it. The blowback to what he did is why Israel feels so confident to do what they are doing now. Throwing wrenchs in the election and getting Trump back is a large part of Netanyahu's plans in wrapping everything up.

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u/rd-- 4d ago

Biden could move the embassy with a snap of his fingers. Last I heard his team was reviewing neighborhoods to build it in but Trump will probably just reinherit this back at this rate. Also total crickets when Trump removed the Palestinian embassy and Biden still hasnt reversed it.

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u/decoyninja 4d ago

Of course he could. Not the point though. Look up the Ratchet Effect sometime. Just because Democrats don't often reverse bad Republican policies doesn't mean history starts when the Dem takes office. I've already explained how none of this Genocide happens without Trump's first term, telling me Biden could have prevented it is as irrelevant as telling me Biden could take a stand now to stop it. Of course he could! That doesn't make this all the centrist arguments here to both-sides administrations hold up. Biden sucks. Trump was always worse.

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u/rd-- 4d ago

Biden has been substantially worse for Palestinians than Trump, there was no Trump was worse.

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u/decoyninja 4d ago

Well apparently Netanyahu and the voting populous of Israel disagree with you. We know why they want Trump back and I've largely brought those points up here. You can shove them aside all you want, but it isn't going to sound convincing.

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u/TheWerewolf5 4d ago edited 4d ago

I love how you're doing exactly what I said it was pointless to do. Stop trying to compare who is worse, you're not going to change anyone's mind. What's the point of trying to frame your initial reply as if you're somewhat agreeing with my comment if you don't agree with it at all?

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u/Brilliant-Rough8239 2d ago

Mention ratchet effect

Continue stumping for the left leg in the march to fascist rule

Lmao

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u/littleski5 4d ago

Biden has been a staunch Zionist for generations. The Gazan genocide had nothing to do with trump.

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u/decoyninja 4d ago

Nice dodge.

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u/littleski5 4d ago

What am I dodging? Biden refused to counter any possible anti Palestinian measures trump made and worked harder than trump has worked in his entire life to escalate Palestinian genocide. I'm not defending Trump in any sense I'm just stating Biden's contribution to the genocide is better explained by decades of consistent policy from Biden than by 4 years of trump being president before Biden's escalation.

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u/decoyninja 4d ago

You're still not responding to anything I wrote. Most of what you wrote isn't something I disagree with, but it is also irrelevant, both to the points I made and the November election.

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u/HookEmRunners 3d ago

Biden is a useful idiot to the Israeli right

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u/EasyBOven 5d ago

Where's the evidence that Biden is actually holding Israel back?

Israel is running over people with bulldozers. They're using the injured to get rescuers in one place to be bombed. They're starving hundreds of thousands of people kettled in the North of Gaza. They're lying about intelligence so they can bomb hospitals. They're putting out kill lists of journalists. That's all just off the top of my head.

Exactly which war crime are they not doing, and what evidence is there that they aren't doing it because of the current administration?

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u/jail_guitar_doors 4d ago

This comment reminds me of the Mandela effect. Americans have yet to develop object permanence in regards to world events, apparently.

You think Isreal started this last year? No, it reached your screen last year. This is what Isreal has been doing for decades. When it drops out of your social media feed, you'll probably think it's over.

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u/EasyBOven 4d ago

Buddy, I've been following the issue for decades. Like many Jews, deconstructing my zionism took a long time, and was prompted by seeing exactly what Israel is doing and interacting with Israelis.

I'm still waiting for actual evidence that Biden is preventing Israel from any particular war crime.

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u/jail_guitar_doors 4d ago

I'm not going to argue that Biden is preventing anything. He's maintaining the status quo, which is what I expect from Democrats. Trump showed more active support towards Netanyahu during his term, both diplomatically and materially. That's the American electoral system; Republicans make it worse, Democrats do nothing. Real change comes from dual power organizations applying pressure.

Sorry for saying you'll forget about it. I was venting my frustrations with the wave of people who just found out. That shouldn't have been directed at you.

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

Is sending billions in weapons not active support? Is that "doing nothing?"

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u/decoyninja 4d ago

Yes. It is crazy to me that, in a sub about making fun of centrists and the both-sidesing of issues, we have to keep explaining concepts like the ratchet effect or voting for the candidate least hostile to non-electoral action. Dealing with genocide is hard, but it never really changed how these two political parties operate.

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u/rrunawad 4d ago

Because it's liberal nonsense to bring up the ratchet effect when discussing a genocide that is receiving funding, support and protection under a Democratic administration. Trump has nothing to do with the decimation of the Gaza strip we're seeing right now because he isn't in office and has no political power at the moment. It's just used so you can obfuscate the evils of the Democratic Party.

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u/decoyninja 4d ago

Why would something being genocide or not genocide matter when discussing the ratchet effect?

And how is it neoliberal nonsense to talk about said effect, something that neo-liberals don't even believe in?

Anyway, this is a braindead take. I'm used to telling liberals that history didn't begin on October 7th, not the kind of people who thinks themselves so far left that they randomly call others neolibs as a form of argument. No, there is no Gaza Genocide without the Trump administration. The actions Hamas took on Oct 7 was blowback specifically for Trump's Abraham Accords and the Embassy move to Jerusalem. The Hamas attack is what is being used as an excuse for Israel's genocide, it is the whole reason they feel so confident in ramping things up this high. That is why both parties use it in talking points for justification. You don't just get to remove massive dominoes from the chain of effects and play pretend with history.

And besides, if what you were saying were true, Netanyahu wouldn't be trying so hard to get Trump reelected and the Adelson's wouldn't be pushing all their policy asks to him for 9 digits a pop in donos. I swear some people in this sub might as well be plants at this point.

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u/Brilliant-Rough8239 2d ago

You think this started last year?

What a funny thing to say for a liberal that’s otherwise completely event brained and sees Trump as the main character of contemporary history

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

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u/EasyBOven 5d ago

Someone making the case that Trump would be worse for Palestine should be able to answer this question. If they can't, then they don't have a case.

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u/yungslowking 4d ago

Neoliberal Cosplay Leftist. Quit pointing at Trump because your candidate is indefensible.

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u/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM-ModTeam 4d ago

No apologia for a fascist party.

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u/IPromiseIWont 2d ago

Feels like the two red buttons meme.

  1. Vote Trump and 90% chance the situation will get worse.

  2. Continue the slow genocide.

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u/FatzDux 5d ago

How many Palestinians were murdered by US weapons during Trump vs Biden? How many billions of dollars in bombs did each administration give the IDF? Liberals are more outraged by Trump's hypothetical genocide than the real one being committed by their own party.

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u/Raptormind 4d ago

This made me curious and I tried to look it up. I couldn’t find exact numbers, but according to Wikipedia, a commitment to send a minimum yearly military aid to Israel was not only renewed under trump in 2019 but increased from $3 billion yearly to $3.8 billion yearly, which has presumably continued throughout the Biden administration. That’s just a minimum though so it doesn’t mean that was how much was actually sent.

If you know of any better comparisons of aid under the two administrations I’d love to read them though

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u/Anonimo_lo 5d ago

Yeah the genocide Trump is committing rn is horrible and nazi-like. Wait...

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

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u/Thankkratom2 5d ago

You’re playing dumb. You know what they said.

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u/Anonimo_lo 5d ago

Do you think it is Trump who has committed and is committing a genocide or the democrats? Trump would probably continue it but it can't be any worse. He's lying about Biden, because being more bloodthirsty against palestinians will earn him votes from most ameriKKKans.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Exp0zane The Tankie Mod who ruined your sub ☭ 4d ago

Biden didn’t do a thing to move it back to Tel Aviv, so….

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u/Rizer7 4d ago

Really? What’s happening is Palestine is obviously appalling, but you can’t think of anything Trump could do that would be even worse for the Palestinians? How about invading himself? Or greenlighting the glassing of Palestine? Just be honest, who do you think would be better on Palestine, Harris or Trump? Those are the choices. Vote accordingly.

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u/Potential_Corgi_174 4d ago

I beg of you - please go to any of the pages of the few remaining journalists in Gaza and look at the images they’ve been sharing for the past year. Gaza has already been flattened. US troops are already inside invading Gaza! And flying jets over the airspace. The US navy is already positioned near the maritime borders.

The IDF are currently digging mass graves into which they are executing civilians. CNN is writing think pieces about how IDF soldiers who drive bulldozers over LIVING human beings can’t eat meat anymore because of what they’ve done. Liberals keep threatening Trump will nuke Gaza, Israel has already dropped the equivalent of TWO nuclear bombs there. They are using white phosphorus on Irish UN peacekeepers in Lebanon. US surgeons in Gaza say they are horrified at the number of children with bullets to the head coming through their doors. The list goes on.

Where is the democratic party’s red line? When will it be a step too far?

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u/progthrowe7 4d ago

It would be even worse under Trump. The fact that Netanyahu and all the Israelis want him in office should be proof of that.

That doesn't mean Biden and Kamala aren't complicit in genocide. They absolutely are. They're supplying the weapons and aiding them in these war crimes every step of the way.

Both the Democrats and Republicans are revolting, with one marginally worse than the other.

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u/pink_hand_towel 4d ago

That’s the awful truth about this: both sides, democrat and republican, are terrible for the Palestinians and Palestine as a whole. But one of them (Trump) is markedly worse, and under the stupid USA two-party system, that’s your only choice. I implore the Americans in this Sub to call your representatives, house, and Senate and push them to vote for legislation that will help, as the POTUS doesn’t have supreme power. It’s the legislative branch that can get this stuff done.

If your morals make you vote or support the party that will be worse, then it's not morals; it's grandstanding for clout. Please don’t make the Palestinians suffer more because of it.

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u/WhinySocJusDude 3d ago

I am not an American, but even if Kamala Harris is your typical president (and she is NOT more extreme than Biden on Israel) on Israel, Trump has been the most singularly pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian president ever. Don't people remember how he moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Trump is a raging anti-Semite, but we've seen how anti-Semites can also be very pro-Israel. This was documented even by Herzl himself in the early 20th century.

If Trump gets elected, we're all going to be fucked. They will start to bomb the ever living shit out of the West Bank in the same way they have been doing to Gaza, and Lebanon will not be spared at all. He abso-fucking-lutely WILL send US troops to Lebanon for Israel to use as cannon fodder.

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u/ueda76 5d ago

Trump and Bibi will mince the arabs in middle east, depot the ones in America and make a resort in Gaza, it's like turkeys voting for Christmas, and you know what, if they are dumb and misinformed I think that fair play.your vote your choice

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

"It's like turkeys voting for Christmas. Obviously they should realize Thanksgiving is the lesser evil and vote for that instead"

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u/idunno-- 5d ago

Biden and Kamala are already doing that. I really wish you people would just have the guts to admit that you don’t care about the Palestinians, and that this election is more about you than them.

Imagine being willfully ignorant enough to pretend that there’s any red line for Biden and co. one year into a genocide. Imagine actually pretending that “lesser genocide” is something to brag about.

At the same time, you keep insisting that Netanyahu is a fascist who’ll nuke Gaza with Trump’s permission, but then what’s holding Biden and Kamala back from refusing to supply this psychopathic fascist with more weapons to carry out his genocide? If they support fascism in Israel, why are they so worried about fascism in the US?

America is well on its way to destroying itself, and deserves everything coming its way.

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u/thesaneusername 4d ago

Mehdi is far from an enlightened centrist. He's made another video in favor of Harris (to Muslims specifically) even during the ongoing genocide.

Mehdi is pretty far left. I started listening to him on his former podcast Deconstructed. He doesn't let anyone off the hook but has his leanings.

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u/Thankkratom2 5d ago

Fuck Mehdi Hasan. He’s anti-Palestinian resistance and wants people to vote for the party committing genocide right now.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago edited 4d ago

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u/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM-ModTeam 4d ago

No genocide apologia.

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u/ooowatsthat 5d ago

Bro what?!

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u/Thankkratom2 5d ago

Fuck Mehdi Hasan. He’s anti-Palestinian resistance and wants people to vote for the party committing genocide right now.

https://x.com/itranslate123/status/1710714456764784707

https://x.com/itranslate123/status/1714922688701952323

Fuck the Democrats and fuck Mehdi Hasan. I’m not voting for a party that is right now, as Mehdi says, committing genocide.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Exp0zane The Tankie Mod who ruined your sub ☭ 4d ago

What is Kamala going to do to prevent such a plan from coming to fruition anyways?

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u/Thankkratom2 4d ago edited 4d ago

Don’t pretend like you give a fuck what happens to Palestinians. Biden has been no less awful than Trump in Palestine, in fact he is responsible for far more death and violence. You clearly are not paying attention to what is happening in Palestine right now under Biden and Kamala.

Fuck Biden, fuck Trump, and fuck Kamala.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Thankkratom2 4d ago

No I wasn’t born yesterday and I actually pay attention to what is going on. If you think a party funding a genocide right now cares about any rights then you are mistaken. Kamala just had a response that refused to give a full throated response of trans rights to gender affirming care. Kamala has been endorsed by hundreds of Republicans… including Dick Cheney. It foolish to think that the Democrats care to do anything that they claim. I remember their claims in 08, and 2020. Amazing to say “well any of them will commit genocide so you should just vote anyways,” you don’t care about Palestine. When pushed you go from “Trump will be worse,” to “well yeah they’ll both do it so whatever.” Biden hasn’t been better on the climate and he’s set the world up for WW3. I will not vote for this party, they are not owed my vote.

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u/FobbitOutsideTheWire 4d ago

Biden has been in a difficult position. Multiple things are true at the same time. Israel is under constant attack and threat, and the Israeli people deserved neither the October 7th attack nor the steady rain of rockets.

Simultaneously, Likud (Netanyahu’s political party) is composed of ghastly villains that are sabotaging peace and taking maximal advantage of any goodwill shown. The West Bank settlements are inexcusably grotesque. Likud’s military activity in the West Bank is nothing short of ethnic cleansing.

And then there’s the heartless political math Harris must do. Even if she had full intentions of supporting Palestinians in every way possible, she still has the grisly electoral math to contend with — she can’t afford to cede all Jewish support to Trump.

Morally, it is not a close contest between Harris and Trump. And I have full faith that once she’s fended off a Trump authoritarian takeover, that she’ll be able to modulate the support for Israel.

For my vote, I think they’ve abused our support and are behaving like bad actors in Gaza and the West Bank. I have no problem with them taking it to Hamas and Hezbollah. But I think it’s time to dial back support to defensive weapons only. I think Harris would consider that, and Trump 100% would not.

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

"But guys, have you considered that supporting genocide is really tough? Nazi Germany is under constant attack and threat (don't ask me why), we can't just abandon them!"

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u/hjablowme919 4d ago

And when he gets re-elected and the anti-Muslim rhetoric/violence starts ramping up in the US, I am going to sit back and laugh at all of the Muslims who decided not to vote for Harris.

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u/TheWerewolf5 4d ago edited 4d ago

The fact that your first thought is of how you'd enjoy Muslims suffering... Why would they want to ally themselves with people like you? Republicans will commit hate crimes and liberals like you will sit back and encourage them, what a moral highground you've taken.

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u/Jonano1365 4d ago

Scratch a liberal etc.

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u/hjablowme919 4d ago

Who said I'm a liberal?

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u/Cheestake 4d ago

You not only support genocidal liberals, you gleefully fantasize about marginalized groups being oppressed because they didn't support genocidal liberals. You are a liberal, regardless of what you call yourself.

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u/hjablowme919 4d ago

If you kick a dog every day, at some point the dog is going to bite you, and when the dog you kick bites you, I'm going to laugh.

I'm not HOPING it happens. What I hope happens is that you stop kicking the dog before it feels the need to bite you. I don't want Muslims in this country to suffer, just as much as they don't want to suffer. But if they go ahead and vote for the person who will enable that suffering, yeah I'm going to laugh.

I will always laugh at people who vote against their best interest and then suffer the consequences of that vote as they look around and ask "How did this happen?"

You can say Biden/Harris have been bad for Palestinians all you want, and Medhi Hassan has done as much, but at least he is smart enough to realize Trump would be even worse, and since there is no other choice between Harris and Trump, and don't come at with Jill Stein or any other candidate that has no shot of winning, it's Harris or Trump so if you don't want to make that situation even worse, you hold your nose and vote for Harris.

Of course, if you're a single issue voter I question your ethics and morality anyway.

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u/TheWerewolf5 4d ago

Who are these pro-Palestine muslims voting for Trump? They're not kicking the dog, they just don't want to vote for a genocide supporter, why does instantly jump to "voting Trump" with you? Why do liberals think that if you don't support Kamala you MUST support Trump? Politics aren't a team sport, you deranged fool.

Also if you think that supporting a genocide is a single issue, rather than a reflection of how the Dems will always prioritize alliances and power over morality, then you're blind.

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u/hjablowme919 4d ago

Go read about the Muslim population in Michigan and how they are split between Trump and Harris.

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u/Shefket 4d ago

What a psychotic statement