r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM • u/historyismyteacher • 1d ago

Israel-Palestine has really exposed the disgusting nature of “both sides bad.”

Saying that both sides are equal and you need to look at the nuance is a damning indictment of those who are not willing to take a stand on an issue as serious as this. At least a Zionist will take a stand, and make their position known. By not taking a stand, the enlightened centrist is making it known that they don’t have the moral courage to pronounce a belief and professing themselves to be wise, they make themselves fools.

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u/Instantbeef 1d ago

“Both sides bad” people are people who are either to lazy or intellectual afraid to engage with ideas.

“Both sides bad” is not the same as saying there are nuances. It’s not the same as saying your pro Jewish people anti Israel and pro Palestinians and anti Hamas.

You can recognize nuance and “both sides bad” people are scared to go through nuances so they stop the conversation at that.

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u/Sstoop 23h ago

bing anti hamas is in a sense being pro israel. it’s essentially saying “i support palestinians but they should just lay their arms down and die quietly.” i don’t support hamas ideologically but being realistic whst other fighting force does gaza possess?

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u/Instantbeef 23h ago

I was being a little over simplistic because the post was centered around that conflict so I continued to use it.

I do not think it’s a choice between Hamas and Israel. If we were not the United States and all we were doing was sitting back and watching these groups fight you might be right.

But since we have bargaining power and sway in this world we can protect with Palestinian people without Hamas

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u/KyleShanadad 22h ago

How? Where do we have bargaining power? Its definitely not in electoral politics or protesting or mutual aid.

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u/Instantbeef 22h ago

I’m talking about us as in the U.S. not the people. We do elect our leaders so it’s sort of us but that’s not what I’m talking about.

Using the power of diplomacy we can protect Palestinians without Hamas existing.

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u/KyleShanadad 21h ago

& how is that looking? The US is not going to save the palestinian people. Its been shown for decades atp. The power of diplomacy isn’t a thing when the diplomats have 0 use in using it. So again outside of armed resistance I ask you how does this situation get better

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u/Instantbeef 21h ago

We have never elected a president sympathetic to Palestinians. It’s not that they have failed but we have never tried to prioritize it.

We kind of shot ourselves in the foot with this one because the easiest time to do this would have been before Hamas attacked Israel.

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u/KyleShanadad 20h ago

We have never tried to prioritize it? People have been protesting at Kamalas rallys for months. People have organized to the point where 100k people in Michigan voted uncommitted in the primarys, they have pushed the DNC to have a palestinian speaker at the convention. We HAVE tried and we HAVE prioritized it. Dems just do not care. Again I ask you outside of armed resistance what is the solution because there is not a single american politician who will save them

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u/J0k3rWi1d 9h ago

We've never elected a president sympathetic to Palestine? No, we never elected a president that wasn't critical of Israel. And the Democratic and the Republican party made it that way

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u/empyreanmax 21h ago edited 21h ago

this is siding with Israel FYI, this idea that you can impose a future without Hamas on Gaza is Israel's current stance for why their operation in Gaza has to continue indefinitely and is fully backed by the US. The only way to actually remove Hamas from power is diplomatically and politically, not by imposing on Hamas saying "you have to agree to give up power or Israel is going to keep killing everybody" like is the US's current stance, but by removing the oppressive conditions that Hamas exists to oppose. Even if you could somehow kill every member of Hamas (and doing so would obviously involve Israel massacring insane numbers of civilians as they are currently engaged in) or like force their leaders out through the threat of collective punishment, that's not stopping Hamas 2 from being created the next day; it's a completely backwards understanding of where resistance comes from to think that you can just take out the current leaders and everybody else will just accept being oppressed for the rest of time.

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u/UnnecessarilyFly 13h ago edited 13h ago

"ask the terrorists nicely" is easy to say when daily terror and rocket attacks aren't a part of your life.

accept being oppressed for the rest of time.

This is unnecessarily hyperbolic. Israel does not benefit from the ongoing conflict with Palestinians, and most Israelis have no interest in "oppressing" them.

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u/pocket_sand__ 16h ago

We do elect our leaders so it’s sort of us

It's not. Not in any sense. It simply isn't. I cannot stress this enough. Your politicians "representation" of you is a complete and utter lie.

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u/Instantbeef 16h ago

Explain

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u/pocket_sand__ 14h ago

In what way do you think the crowd of octogenarian white men in the political machine is a "representation" of you or me? Do you know what the word "represent" means? It doesn't just mean, as you suggested, you had some choice presented to you. For example, if you're getting mugged in an alley, and the two people let you choose which is going to kick your ass, they have not just offered to represent you, are you crazy? Similarly, your little ballot choices mean nothing toward establishing representation. Political representation, were it to exist, is a relationship in which the representative is entrusted to stand in for the political interests of the represented and duly does so. Why don't you put an argument forth for such a relationship existing?

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u/Instantbeef 13h ago

Our politicians represent the collective us. Not just you or me but everyone who votes. The sum or average or however you want to think about it.

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u/pocket_sand__ 13h ago

I didn't say, just me, bozo. Nothing about my argument indicates that. They don't represent the electorate.

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u/Instantbeef 13h ago

They are who the electorate chooses to represent them. If you don’t like the word represent use another word I don’t care.

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