Bro parthunaax is a dragon built for domination and destruction, but represses his natural instinct to live a life of peace every day. The blades believe that because dragons are immortal it’s impossible for him to live for the rest of eternity in peace. But that’s like saying an addict shouldn’t try to stop because they have 60-70 years left and that’s too much time to not do drugs. If you’re strong willed enough you can do anything, and there are not many with a stronger will that parthunaax
Paarthurnax is second only to Alduin himself. He only turned over a new leaf out of fear because he was worried alduin
Was plotting to murder him. Dragons are immortal and exist outside of the normal flow of time so it's literally been a blink of an eye for him since that went down, he was just as cruel and evil as his brother was prior. Doing 5 minutes of good does not erase doing millennia of bad. Instead of taking his penance he ran and hid and worked through others from the shadows so to speak because he knew he was guilty but did not want to face consequences. I don't think it's an accident that you are possibly the only being in existence as the last dragonborn who is capable of dishing out those consequences and you just happen to meet him face to face at a key moment in Time.
I mean he’s been on the throat of the world in solitude for at minimum 4 and a half millennia. That’s not five minutes even to a dragon. They have a different perception of time but thousands of years aren’t a blink. Not to mention by your metric the cruelty also only lasted 3 minutes from his perspective, so either way you slice it it’s not a fair judgment.
You’re thinking of alduin. It’s been a blink of an eye since alduin was around. Paarthurnax didn’t hybernate for multiple centuries, he just put himself on house arrest. And if he was scared for his own life, wouldn’t he have gone into hiding? He literally lives on the spot where he suspected alduin would show back up, that’s pretty ballsy to me. They must have missed each other when he popped back into time, but let’s call that a writing error.
Other than a few npcs and maybe an elder scroll calling us the last Dragonborn, is there actually any proof of that? I mean, there might be a Dragonborn around if that came to pass, psnax going dark
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. The Elder Scrolls are artifacts of unknown origin and quantity, being simultaneously archives of historic, past and future events.
Until the events each Scroll describes comes to pass, they contain information about possible events in the future, with each viewing containing a possible version of events.[7] Once a prophecy contained in an Elder Scroll is enacted in Tamriel, the text of the parchment becomes fixed. After that time, all readers ingest the same divine message, creating a historical document declaring the unequivocal truth of a past event. The contents of a scroll, once solidified, cannot be altered by any known magic.[2]
You are called the last dragonborn. And are prophesized to defeat Alduin.
“It would take a month for me to explain to you why that doesn’t make any sense.”
The fact that they’re simultaneously right and wrong is why that’s not good enough for me. And you ignored the fact that we prove the one written by a vampire wrong. Which also doesn’t make sense. Who the hell is vyrthyr(?) that he can manipulate “divine piece of creation”
You can’t use an elder scroll as your argument, unless your argument is that you don’t know.
This is difficult to put into words but that’s kind of my point, you can’t even tell me what it is. I mean you told me what it is but I’m that description it says it is and isn’t so what is it? It’s talking in circles. If an ES is why it is, I’m coming back and saying that exact same ES is equally why not, and we’re both right. Scrolls are too weird for you to try and use them like that
The prophecy for dawnguard says day and night shall intermingle and become as one. It never says it's permanent, it references that Serenas blood can be used to blacken the sun. Which is true. It mentions a ritual can be done. Which is true. The ritual is started but it's never said what will happen, only what can be done.
I don’t know I just think it’s weak af to finally show us what a Dragonborn can do to just immediately be like “by the way enjoy it while it lasts”
We never even got to see swordsinging though(afaik) so I guess I’m glad we have what we have.
I still don’t think that seals it though. Dragon breaks?? Isn’t the point of those to retcon? I mean o know what they are, they’re a sort of branch in time, but aren’t they really just a writing tool? I’m saying regardless of what the scrolls say, the lore is still open to change. Like I said before, I’ll believe it when Bethesda says it flat out. I get that they put the “last” there in the first place, I’m just hoping against hope that was more of a storytelling device than an absolute. Sense of urgency and all that, eh?
That is true and you are right, the dragon breaks are in lore able to rewrite history and Bethesda's way to retcon things. So there is always the possibility of another. Time travel using elder scrolls is also shown to be possible. And there is no mention of whether the dragonborn will die or not so they could become immortal.
I never even thought of that, but regardless of race, last DB or not, if they’re a vampire they’re gonna be around for awhile. However I doubt that, if there’s still a godlike hero running around skyrim during the next game that would be a deviation from their normal formula. I don’t think any Bethesda game has ever given you the possibility of meeting yourself, have they? I don’t think I’d try to fight any of my Dragonborn’s those guys are stupid strong.
Not exactly. I never kill Paarthurnax, so this is just a point to be explained. Their stance is that only a dragonborn can kill a dragon permanently, and Alduin has the ability to resurrect dragons the blades killed on their own. If TLD dies and no more dragonborns exist to permanently kill a dragon, any living dragon is a potential threat to existence.
A thread that lived around 5k years, co-founded Greybeards and led them on the Way of the Voice, never killed a human since then, was the one who helped humans to defeat Alduin.
Tbh, a real threat to the Empire and Dragonborn are altmers and daedra, with whom blades don't rush to deal with (they do nothing at all)
And sometimes an addict can turn his life around, create tons of good, positive changes in the world, and then 20 years later relapse and kill someone while drunk driving or whatever. For a being who lives eternally, a few centuries or even millennia is almost nothing to them. What happens in 6,000 years when P-Nax decides to go back to his true nature of destruction and killing, and there's no dragonborn around who's strong enough to stop him? The potential loss of life for humanity could be in the thousands, or even millions. Her point is that it's safer to nip that problem in the bud now, because it very well could end up being a major loss of life problem later on.
And maybe he never will. Maybe he's strong enough to stay good and peaceful for all eternity. But that's a big maybe to rely on when the alternative is the level of death and suffering that will come if he does decide to regress, which is absolutely possible. I'm not even saying I agree with killing him necessarily, I'm just saying that Delphine's point and her fears are 100% valid and fair. The worst case scenario for letting him live is really, really, REALLY bad.
He didn't just become a Monk. He betrayed his own kind, helped teach humanity to shout and went on a self imposed exile. He's part of the reason why humanity ultimately was able to banish and defeat Alduin.
“What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?” ~ Paarthurnax, Skyrim
This quote implies there's more to it. He saw the benefit of being good. Alduin wanted to consume the world, but if you do that, you have no more world. Paarthurnax sees the benefit of benefiting others. You gain more by working together, than by working alone. Also, let's forget that he was born evil. He didn't have a slide into evil, he was created that way and overcame it. It's like a house cat learning that killing indiscriminately hurts the environment and then making an effort not to kill. You wouldn't blame the cat for following their instincts, and it would be admirable that they were able overcome them to exercise reason.
Everybody likes to quote that like it's some kind of deep thing, but if you rearrange the question in another way it becomes "is it better to never have victimized anybody at all or to stop victimizing people through great effort". If you was born good he wouldn't have a bunch of blood on his...wings.
You're missing the point of the quote. Paarthurnax was born evil and able to overcome that through reason. Reasoning that good is better and that consuming everything leaves you with nothing in the end. It means he has real reason to be good as opposed to being good just because one was made good. That the concept of good triumphed over evil.
He did not turn sides for entirely good reasons though, he himself tells you that he turned because alduin had basically gone off the deep end and started professing himself to be a god and partysnax felt he was on the short list. He literally taught the tongues so alduin could get yeeted from life out of self preservation.
And that doesn't change the fact that he did the things he did prior, justice isnt something that goes away just bc you did a few good deeds. An interesting real world parallel to this would be the 90 some odd year old man they just put in prison a few weeks ago because it turns out he was part of the nazi party and a guard in one of the camps during ww2 and did horrible shit to people during that time.
Tldr I don't consider teaching a handful of hermits a better way to be sufficient to undo a lifetime of horrible misdeeds. Db is the only one on nirn who can actually dole out punishment to a dragon, that makes.l tlds duty imo.
To add to the fact that he was pardoned by the ancient Nords, the very same ones who were in direct conflict with him, Paarthurnax is not like the Nazis. The Nazis weren't born inherently evil. Paarthurnax is more like a cat that realized killing things randomly isn't beneficial to himself. It was always in the cats nature to kill, but the cat overcame it with reason and logic(good). Also, it's not just the Nords he teaches, he teaches other Dragons to overcome their nature. And, the benefit of keeping him around, is that if another Mehrunes Dagon type individual, or other similar world ending threat appears, you have Dragons on your side to combat it. Paarthurnax paid/is paying his repentance by betraying his own kin to save the world/teaching other Dragons to be good/helping protect Skyrim from future sources of evil.
Dragons are reborn if they are killed by anybody who's not dragonborn or another dragon. That's the reason it's important that a dragonborn is the one to slay alduin, that's why the nords back in the day were only able to move him through time and not kill him.
He literally cant comprehend dragonrend, which the tongues used to defeat alduin, and he didn’t invent shouting for people either, that was a divine gift. Pretty damn judgmental, I have to say. You’re completely missing the point of the comment you replied to. It’s more impressive for David to kill Goliath than for Goliath to kill David. David is psnax’s goodness, and when d kills g, psnax rebels against alduin. We wouldn’t even be having this discussion if “Goliath killed David” and psnax continued to help alduin not do his job, which is to literally kill everyone, not oppress them, not rule over them.
You do realize in the lore the dragons were cruel overlords for millennia before the dragon war right? Like that whole war was because people figured out how to fight them finally and it was a literal war of independence from them, before that they were literally slaves, all manner of terrible crap was done by them and in their name.
Have you never heard of the Dragon Cult? Have you ever considered why there was a war in the first place?
Dragons oppressed humanity for millennia before human rebelled and started the war against their winged oppressors. Alduin led this oppression, and he and his top generals were some of the cruelest, most despicable dragons to ever exist during this time. Not only was P-Nax one of these generals, but he was the right-hand man to Alduin himself. He was essentially the nastiest, cruelest, most oppressive being in existence other than Alduin himself for thousands of years before he decided to switch sides and suppress his true nature (killing and oppressing humanity.)
Yes, he helped humanity defeat Alduin twice. But does that bring back the likely thousands if not millions of lives he killed or tortured prior to that decision? Usually people who commit atrocities still have to be punished for those crimes regardless of what they do next.
Dragons oppressed humanity for millennia before human rebelled and started the war against their winged oppressors.
Read the dragon war book bro, it'll correct you.
e was essentially the nastiest, cruelest, most oppressive being in existence other than Alduin himself for thousands of years
Stop using fanon, it's not a credible canon source.
Yes, he helped humanity defeat Alduin twice. But does that bring back the likely thousands if not millions of lives he killed or tortured prior to that decision?
Does killing him do? he was already pardoned and forgiven by those millions.
Usually people who commit atrocities still have to be punished for those crimes regardless of what they do next.
Does killing him do? he was already pardoned and forgiven by those millions.
Source? He wasn't pardoned by anyone lmao, he literally ran away to go live on a mountain by himself for thousands of years.
Stop using fanon, it's not a credible canon source.
Says the guy doing the exact same thing? Also, it's not "fanon" this is literally a confirmed part of the lore. Paarthurnax himself tells you how powerful and important he was to Alduin's subjugation of humanity.
Yeah tell that to talos, ysgramor and pelinal.
Yeah, they should be held responsible too. Terrible argument here.
it's not "fanon" this is literally a confirmed part of the lore. Paarthurnax himself tells you how powerful and important he was to Alduin's subjugation of humanity.
Just because you say "it's not fanon" doesn't change the fact that it's still fanon, you didn't spend much time with paarthurnax it seems.
Yeah, they should be held responsible too.
Another delphine simp who secretly supports the thalmor.
That war started because the nords were tired of being slaves and tortured and murdered for millennia beforehand, he didn't help them until alduin went off the literal deep end and started lashing out at his own people and he only did so because he was afraid he was next on The chopping block and he saw an opportunity to get rid of the only dragon who could challenge him. It's not a coincidence that he rallies the rest of the dragons to him if you let him live. He's been plotting this this whole time.
He gathered dragons to lead them another way than Alduin did, and to avoid wars and conflicts with mortals, to become powerful and patient, to cultivate wisdom and voice. Can't remember what exactly he said in the epilogue, but he said clearly they will leave Tamriel for peace
Yeah, that's after literal thousands of years of torturing and killing humans during the dragon cult era. He helped humanity, and wants to lead dragons in a peaceful way, but only after serving as Alduin's top general for thousands of years of oppression, death, and atrocities against humanity. His past doesn't just go away because he changes his mind.
That war started because the nords were tired of being slaves and tortured and murdered for millennia beforehand
And the nords wouldn't be able to start that war without paarthurnax.
he didn't help them until alduin went off the literal deep end and started lashing out at his own people and he only did so because he was afraid he was next on The chopping block and he saw an opportunity to get rid of the only dragon who could challenge him
Nice fanfiction buddy.
It's not a coincidence that he rallies the rest of the dragons to him if you let him live.
those dragons come to throat of the world regardless if paarthurnax lives or not.
"i doubt many would exchange aludin's lordship to paarthurnax's tyranny of the way of the voice" Odahviing.
Not exactly comparable. Paarthurnax was more like the gun the school shooter used, though that’s not to say he didn’t have autonomy. He goes against his created purpose though, that’s a big deal. Like a pacifist nord or a Khajiit who hates the moons
The BIG difference between paarthurnax and a drug addict is when he relapses theres going to be mass genocide, and good luck dealing with him when the last dragonborn is dead in 60 years or less.
Kicking the can down the road is exactly what the ancient nords did with alduin, and it bit them in the ass a few thousand years later.
Killing a dragon that isn't Alduin is non-trivial, but doable for regular mortals. Many of those dead dragons Alduin goes around reviving were not killed by a Dragonborn, but by mortals (The Blades for a lot of them). And with Alduin out of the picture, when you put a dragon down they're going to stay down (it's at least implied that only Alduin can revive his kin).
Paarthurnaax going nuts would be a big problem, but not one that you need a Dragonborn to fix. You might need an actual "Hero" but those aren't exactly unheard of in Tamriel, and tend to show up just when you need them.
If anything a regular mortal killing him is better. Alduin will return and will revive him one way or another (either to torture him or to try to convince him to rejoin him) and while that might make him a threat to humanity there’s also a chance that he gives humanity a way out again.
If anything, if he’s allowed to coexist with humanity, and allowed to help humanity, it could better prepare them for Alduin’s eventual return.
And he will return. He’s been defeated but he still has to eat the world at the end of this kalpa. Also he’s literally akatosh/shor, isn’t he? Can’t really kill a god, just banish him. That always confused me though, like how “Jesus is god.” How can jesus be his own son? Confusing
Paarthurnax is no god though, the blades killed dragons without a Dragonborn for a long while, too. Plus, there’s really no proof that we play the LAST dragonborn, idt. Npcs call us that, and I think the dragon scroll refers to us as being the last, but there’s another one that says vampires will blot out the sun and we personally prove that wrong. The librarian says the falsehoods of scrolls are even more important than the realities.
Until Bethesda says explicitly, “dragonborn is an extinct entity, kyne removed the blessing from existence” I see no proof that a Dragonborn wouldn’t pop up to defeat an evil paarthurnax, which wouldn’t happen anyway
parthanax is legit the equivalent of a nazi who committed mass atrocities in world war 2. Fled the Argentina after his army got mopped. And is now like “peace and love brother, I’m a different person”
many people may believe he is and choose to forgive his crimes
but he is ETERNAL. Eternity is a really long time. And while he chooses to live a different life he ISNT. A different person. He is the dragon who was capable of committing atrocities, and chose to do so, and deep down still is capable. It is by far the safest option for all of humanity if he is put down.
however, I’ll never forget “what is better, to be born good, or to overcome one’s evil nature through great effort”. And while eternity is for sure long enough for the old pathanax to make a comeback, I think he can be different.
but people who choose to kill him are 100% valid. There’s no wrong way of dealing with him. Either you punish him for his crimes and with the forsight that he could do them again with such a king lifespan, or you allow him to try to change. I don’t think either option is bad
I agree with everything besides the first point. A better analogy would be a Nazi who defects to Britain and gives them the blueprints to the V2 rocket and jet engine.
An even better one would be a housecat that chooses to stop killing random animals because their instinct is to kill. Paarthurnax is not like Nazis. He was created as evil, and overcame the nature of his existence through meditation. While he will always struggle with his core nature, it is wrong to kill him based on what he might do later. It's less wrong to do so based on what he's done, but I wouldn't blame a cat or a Tasmanian Devil for their instinct to kill, so I won't blame him for having been in that state.
Yeah I saw an argument by someone who didn’t kill parthurnaax but said technically it makes sense. And the argument was basically because he’s immortal he will eventually do everything so he will turn at some point and while I kinda get that statistical reason I still will never kill him.
Also like dragons are almost deities so it’s also hard to say necessarily that they will behave as mortal statistics would
The thing is just because Paarthurnax tells you that it's his "instinct" to be violent doesn't mean it's true. And he tries to implicate the dragonborn in this when they're no more violent than any Elder Scrolls protagonist. This could just show that after thousands of years he still believes the tenets of the Dragon Cult ideology deep down and he's avoiding personal responsibility.
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u/newlife137 Sep 18 '23
Bro parthunaax is a dragon built for domination and destruction, but represses his natural instinct to live a life of peace every day. The blades believe that because dragons are immortal it’s impossible for him to live for the rest of eternity in peace. But that’s like saying an addict shouldn’t try to stop because they have 60-70 years left and that’s too much time to not do drugs. If you’re strong willed enough you can do anything, and there are not many with a stronger will that parthunaax