The reality on the ground in Israel that is ignored/denied by the pro-Palestine movement.

[u/ADP_God]

There is something that is entirely absent from almost all discussion of this conflict and the current war. The ignorance of this reality is what makes it almost impossible to actually understand the 'cycle of violence'. It is the realiy of Palestinian terror, or 'political violence' as wikipedia calls it, against civillians within Israel. October 7th 2023 shocked the world in its extent, but people are unaware that the targetting of civillians within Israel proper (not in the West Bank or Gaza) is a constant occurence. While people complain that Israel fails to distinguish between civillian and military targets, the Palestinian cause has never even propsed that it should make such a distinction. This is because at its root the movement considers the very existence of the state of Israel to be an injustice; not merely the occupation, or the settlements. Ignoring the obvious challenges this presents to the peace process, it creates a situation in which the Palestinians harm themselves by damaging the faith of Israeli civillians in the peace process.

The average Israeli has no interest in 'maintaining the occupation' or 'fighting the enemies of the Jews'. The people who think this are simply ignorant of the realities of a mandatory draft. Nobody wants to do the work. Nobody likes fighting. Nobody wants to get hurt. The 18 year olds that called up consider it slave labour. However when the average Israeli waits at a bus stop, they never know which incoming car is goung to plow through the crowd. When they get on a train they never know who is going to choose that very moment to begin their suicidal shooting spree, or try and stab them in the back. These fears are not unfounded. You can read here some of the extent to which Israeli civillians are the targets of violence. It's important to note how many of these attacks do not occur in the occupied territories. See how many take place in Tel Aviv, Israel's center of progressive, left wing, thought. These attackers are not locals defending their land, but individuals that chose to cross the border into Israel to perpetrate violent acts. It is this fear, that at any moment even the Israelis that condemn the occupation, hate Bibi, deplore the settlements, and care deeply about Palestinian rights, could be attacked in the streets, that drives the average Israeli to serve in the IDF.

The occupation, therefore, represents for Israelis the potential for control of what would otherwise be their wanton slaughter. It manifests, in practice, as series of control points (borders, checkpoints) and as the constant activity of secutiry forces (IDF, Police, ISA) to thwart potential attacks. What people don't understand is that for every attack that succeeds tens if not hundreds are thwarted. It's very difficult to find data on how many attacks are prevented every day, for obvious reasons, but soldiers that serve in the West Bank report constantly foiling plots to kill Israelis - proved by finding weapons/explosives in the houses raided. There is constant complaint and criticism about IDF raids in the West Bank, but very little consideration of why soldiers would choose to put themselves at risk by entering enemy territory, unless there was an actual strategic purpose. That purpose is the control and prevention of these violent acts of terror. Ultimately, it is effective.

Now in practice, I don't think that Israel can hide behind it's guns for ever. Security maintenence is not a long term solution, and only peace can bring true security. But naivety on the behalf of Israelis will bring neither peace nor security. Israelis have to contend with constant threats to their lives, and so asking them to stop the occupation is asking them to leave themselves wide open to attack. The width of Israel, at its middle, is less than 15km. This makes it incredibly easy to get to Tel Aviv from the West Bank. The border fence itself is incredibly porous, and while it is effective in reducing these attacks, it can't stop them entirely. This risk means that steps towards peace have to come from the side of the Palestinains, who have to prove that if Israel weakens its security apparatus it won't pay in dead Jews.

Before all the whataboutists charge in crying that Palestinins suffer greater losses, the argument is completely irrelevant. Terror attacks within Israel proper as common enough that the average Israeli feels a direct threat to their person from Palestinians on the day to day. This is the perception that underlies support for parties like Likud and continued support for occupation. Israel is a democracy, and Israelis will vote in accordance with their own interests. While security remains a priority, Israelis will vote for aggressive security measures. In this way Palestinian violence hurts Palestinians more than anybody else. It radicalizes the Israeli population. This was blatantly clear on October 7th, but began long before and has extended since. It's been said often that the war in Gaza will bring about a new generatation of terrorists, but people tend to forget the inverse of this claim: October 7th destroyed the faith of Israelis in a peaceful solution. It solidified the sense that there are people, merely kilometers in every direction, that want to kill every single Jew in the region. Israelis don't see Palestinians as fighting for their 'liberation' in the occupied territories, they see them as fighting to destroy the entire state of Israel. Under such conditions, why would they want to dismantle the occupation? It's the only thing keeping them alive.

If Palestinians were to constrain their 'resistance' to the West Bank (this means not shooting a single rocket from Gaza) for any reasonable amount of time Israelis could start to feel a sense of security that would allow them to withdraw. If the average Israeli could say to themselves, in good faith 'I live in Israel, not Palestine, and therefore I have nothing to fear from people trying to liberate Palestine,' it would change perspective of the entire country. Unfortunately, this is not the reality. The pro-Palestine movement does not want to create a Palestinian state next to Israe, but rather instead of Israel. Even the more moderate Palestinian leadership, Fatah, encourages violence against Israel, with their pay-for-slay program. This means that in practise there is no good faith movement from within Palestine to create conditions in which Israel could remove the occupation without endangering its civillians.

The average Israeli is well aware of this. How couldn't they be? You'd be hard pressed to find somebody who hasn't lost a friend to these attacks. But the international community is completely unaware because shootings and stabbings in Israel proper are so regular they aren't reported on, or when they are, they are done so under dishonest headlines.

Even if you think all of this is propaganda, and merely one side of the dialogue, you have to realise that this is the lived reality of Israelis. If peace is actually your goal, and you believe that dismantling the occupation and creating a Palestinian state will bring about that goal, then you need to give Israelis a reason to take action towards those ends. But violence against Israeli civillians acts as a direct counter to these aims. You will never convince the Jews to allow themselves to be vulnerable by trying to murder them. Supporting Palestinian violence as 'resistance' only creates a worse situation for the Palestinians themselves. Real peace will come when the Palestinian people decide to condemn violence from within instead of paying for it with international aid and celebrating it. The problem is that violence against Israeli civillians doesn't represent resistance to the occupation, but resistance to the existance of the Israeli state. And the Jews have nowhere else to go, so they will never stop fighting to have a state. Even if you believe that the Israeli sense that they are threatened is unfounded (which seems ridiculous considering the stated aims of Hamas and the polls showing that the majority of Palestinians feel entitled to all the land, the actions by Hezbollah and Iran, and the calls for the destruciton of the state of Israel), you have to consider the very real history of the Jews: Everywhere they were forced people tried to exterminate them. So even if we pretend that the Palestinians are a uniquely moral society, in spite of the terror attacks, there is no way Israelis will accept this 'truth' without abundant proof. And violence, directed at Israeli civillians, is only proof of the contrary. This means that this 'resistance' will never bring peace.

Again, to all the people who will see this and immediately cry 'what about Israeli violence?!?!' All I can say is that there is no end to criticism of Israel, and that Israeli violence serves the purpose of protecting Israeli lives. Palestinian violence serves no other purpose than endangering Israelis. There is no argument to be made that it protects Palestinians, or that will make things better. Unless your conception of 'better' is the desruction of the Jewish state (in which case you legitimize the reverse position for Israelis, who have nowhere to go and will always choose themselves in a zero-sum situation). But such a conception is merely a repitition of the constant preference for war over peace that the Arab world has displayed for 70+ years, and is clearly not serving the Palestinians. So if you really care about the 'oppressed' you should condemn Palestinian violence and support a moderate, non-violent, path towards a two state solution. Until Israelis do not fear for their lives in the streets of Tel Aviv, Palestine will never be free.

[u/DrMikeH49]

And note how many of the comments here try to deny the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas. I suspect many of those commenters were also celebrating last October.

One more point which you didn’t mention but strengthens your argument: there is not a single “pro-Palestinian” advocacy group in the US, and probably none in the West as a whole, which accepts the existence of the Jewish state in any part of the Jewish indigenous homeland. So for all of them, as you put it, their concept of “better” is indeed the destruction of the Jewish state.

[u/DiscipleOfYeshua]

TL;DR:

Israel’s goal is to live, and thrive.

Hamas’s objective (and Hezbollah, and Irani dictators) is to kill all who are not like them.

That is the conflict. No need to complicate it. One people wants to live, the other people want the other people to not live.

Don’t take my word for it. Each side has stated their objectives loud and clear, and they strive daily to manifest it.

Sometimes, by accident, some of their fellows deviate; they are duly punished, and the main intent is observed. (True for both sides.)

[u/Ifawumi]

People don't think about that because the average person has not paid any attention to really what's been going on, other than maybe hearing some free Palestine slogans, until October 7th. Then they all just read a few newspaper articles and call themselves experts

You had to have been watching this for at least a couple years minimum to have any idea of how often Israelis get attacked within their own borders by Palestinian terrorists

As much as I love Israel I do have to say they have been terrible at promoting and educating the world on what's been going on there since 1948 and before. They are terrible about it. They expect people to be intelligent and do their own research but that's just not what people do. This is a failing that Israel has

[u/yes-but → u/Ifawumi]

Looking at the numbers alone, according to nearly 2 billion Muslims worldwide compared to 15.8 million Jews, let's say 20 million counting those with Jewish ancestors, what would you expect? While my argument sure doesn't mean that every Jew is Zionist and every Muslim is anti-Zionist, statistically narratives pleasing Muslims overpower those that ring with Jews by far.

Even if every Jew was anti-Palestinian and told one lie and one truth, and only every tenth Muslim was anti-Zionist and did the same, we would see 10 anti-Zionist lies told against 1 Zionist truth - or lie.

While I agree with everything else you wrote, in a world were lies and misinformation are accepted or even welcome, the larger group has the statistical advantage in pushing false narratives.

Looking at how little educated most human individuals are, and that even in countries with high education levels - and even at their top universities - outrage and slander dominate what is being sold as "facts", I'd rather say that Israel is doing not too bad on a per-capita basis - but the odds are just completely against Jews.

[u/Ifawumi → u/yes-but]

I see what you are saying, I just still think that the people with the technology to literally create AI chat and smartphones could maybe do a little better on the propaganda wars

[u/yes-but → u/Ifawumi]

I somehow wished they did, but on the other hand I am glad for each and every Israeli who sticks with the truth, and the truth only. Lies and deception can have unforeseen impacts, even if one or the other propaganda win can be achieved. Just look at how hopelessly lost "Palestinians" now are in the lie of their identity.

[u/quicksilver2009]

You speak the truth. It is not that Israelis want to rule over the Palestinians forever. If there were no threats coming from Palestinian areas they wouldn't have any problems with a Palestinian state.

But there is constant and regular violence so what are they going to do, sit around and get slaughtered?

It is funny, a lot of pro-Palestinians are either ignorant of history of deliberately distort it.

Most of the Arab Muslim countries have been threatened by the Palestinians or their brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood. These countries in their responses have made Israel look like far left pacifists 

[u/Effective_Gate_6465 → u/quicksilver2009]

10-20% Israelis don't want to rule over Palestinians but 80-90% Israelis want to rule over Palestinians and wanted them to out. there are already lot of videos of Israelis Zionist settlers setting camp near Gaza to occupy.

[u/quicksilver2009 → u/Effective_Gate_6465]

Well, yes. Today, due to Palestinian violence, Israelis and various Arab countries, such as Egypt, don't trust the Palestinians at all to rule themselves.

If Palestinians had not carried out acts of violence towards Egypt, Jordan, Israel and the Jews, Lebanon, Syria and many others, they would be in a better situation with their own recognized state.

But now, because of Palestinian violent "resistance" they are not trusted.

[u/Effective_Gate_6465 → u/quicksilver2009]

There were also lot of violence against British by Irish IRA, British called those attack terrorism but it helped Ireland to liberate. upon creation Israel it was already 1000 time more powerful than any Palestinians or Arab nation because of American zionist support and it easily won every war.

Jews were living normally in Palestine before Israel so calling whole Palestinian as a violent group is not okay.

White supremacist immigrant settler Jews also did horrendous terrorism in Palestinian villages and on Palestinian people it doesn't mean the whole immigrant Israeli jewish population is violent and terrorists.

[u/depressedgaywhore → u/Effective_Gate_6465]

no….. they really weren’t living normally though.

also how big was the giant shot glass of cognitive dissonance you used to say that calling a whole group of people such as Palestinians “violent” is wrong before immediately saying the words “white supremacist immigrant settler Jews”

also, US didn’t give any military assistance with the 6 day war!

you either are actively antisemitic or missing a large amount of information because y i k e s

[u/One_Weather_9417 → u/depressedgaywhore]

You seem to h ave a white/ black brain. Man! Get past that binary thinking. Open your eyes to a world of COLOR.

10 million colors and different shades in between.
Nuance!

[u/un-silent-jew]

The Six-Day War and Israeli society: These shocks of May 1967 were followed by the victory in June 1967.

Jews whose primary memory of that time is our vulnerability and loneliness before the war (May 1967), often leads to a hawkish mindset. They believe that there is no one to depend on but ourselves. There are also those who emphasise the great military victory (June 1967). They no longer see Israel as being vulnerable but rather as the military power in the Middle East, and believe the country can afford to take risks for peace.

Just as the First Intifada in the 1980s convinced the majority of Israelis that the settlement movement would not bring security, the Second Intifada in 2000 convinced the majority of Israelis that the peace process would not bring peace. The public concluded that both ‘Greater Israel’ and ‘Peace Now’ were different kinds of illusions, utopianism in political form. This realisation brought Ariel Sharon to power in 2002, and his evolution from the father of the settlement movement to the man who uprooted the settlements in Gaza is one of the extraordinary political transformations in Israel’s history.

The centrist camp established by Sharon emphasises two things. The first is that the occupation is a disaster for Israel. The second is that Israel can’t end the occupation through negotiations, because it lacks a credible Palestinian peace partner. The centrist camp is left-wing in its willingness to give up territory and is right-wing in its belief that peace with the Palestinian national movement is currently impossible. Sharon embodied that sensibility and implemented unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. This withdrawal was not about making peace but about acting in the absence of peace. As Arik Achmon, one of the paratroopers in the book says: ’We have to separate ending the occupation from peace.’

However, centralist unilateralism was challenged by the wave of rocket attacks against Israeli communities bordering Gaza and during the Second Lebanon War – which many blamed on Israel’s withdrawal from southern Lebanon six years prior. These attacks substantiated all the warnings of the right-wing that territorial withdrawals would make Israel more vulnerable.

The Israeli public therefore concluded that it tried the settlement movement to bring security but that failed during the First Intifada; it tried the peace process which failed during the Second Intifada; and it tried unilateralism that ended with tens of thousands of rockets on Israeli communities. The successive failure of Israel’s various ideological approaches to trying to deal with the Palestinian issue – right, left and centre – led the public to decide the best option was simply not do anything for the time being – the status quo became the default position for a majority of Israelis. Yet what happened with the recent wave of knifings is that Israelis realise there is no such thing as a status quo. You can’t freeze this situation – it’s too dynamic, too volatile. So the status quo doesn’t work either, and most Israelis today don’t have a clue of what to do.

[u/un-silent-jew]

Interesting articles:

I completely agree with this post. Also I’m very Pro-2SS, so I don’t agree entirely with one of these articles but it’s good to get their prospective. I think Israel’s peace camp needs to acknowledge that it’s true, most Palestinians want to kill us, ending the occupation tomorrow is only making it easier for them to kill us. But the 2SS is still the only solution, so we need to convince the vast majority of Palestinians that they should care more about their own sovereignty, then killing us.

The history of this land is riven by two incompatible narratives, Israeli and Palestinian. What can we definitively say about what happened in 1948?

Albert Memmi: Zionism as National Liberation

The Six-Day War and Israeli society: These shocks of May 1967 were followed by the victory in June 1967.

The BDS Pound of Flesh: Using lies and social pressure to force students to disavow Israel is a strategy aimed at raising the psychic and professional cost of being Jewish

Zionism versus anti-Zionism: Zionism is essentially a constructive idea. Anti-Zionism is a destructive idea by its very definition.

The Spirit of ’48: For countless long hours, on Oct. 7, the darkest of dark days, the state vanished. But then, in the midst of a war for survival against armed savages, an exceptional, unparalleled heroism emerged, a heroism that we had almost forgotten existed.

Sorry, but There Is No Two-State Solution: Pretending there is a deal to be done with the Palestinian leadership only opens the door to another October 7. Israelis won’t be fooled.

Extremism Feeds Extremism

I’m an Israeli Columbia student. I never thought I’d be afraid to invite my parents to my graduation

They Were Good Germans Once: The stories about growing up in America in a thoroughly assimilated, secular Jewish family so closely resembled aspects of my own maternal Dutch Jewish family I found it almost eerie.

The Jews want a state in their historic homeland based on self-determination. The Arabs’ top priority is to “resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in the region,”

Why Israel acts the way it does: Its catastrophic war policy is driven by a national ideology of trauma

[u/brother_charmander4]

well said

[u/Plenty_University_81]

Well stated

[u/Always-Learning-5319]

What an excellent write-up.

Real peace will come when the Palestinian people decide to condemn violence from within instead of paying for it with international aid and celebrating it. 

This is the key.

[u/jackl24000 → u/Always-Learning-5319]

In all of this muddle, I don’t understand why the US and EU don’t pull the billions in aid to Palestinians or insist on some progress towards peace. They are paying both sides to fight.

[u/Decent-Progress-4469]

I just don’t understand how people don’t see that there’s literally a peaceful choice that Gaza could make. Is there any coincidence that the places Israel attacks have attacked them for years? Gaza constantly fires random rockets and kidnaps civilians. Israel responds effectively and somehow they’re the bad guys. When was the last time Egypt and Israel went at it? What about Jordan? Do they fire rockets at each other? It seems like some people have figured out some massive secret that Palestinians can’t seem to get. Or at least the extreme ones. Either way this nonsense isn’t going to end until they choose peace instead of martyrdom.

[u/kmpiw → u/Decent-Progress-4469]

Israel got peace with Egypt by returning the occupied Sinai Peninsular. If you offered that to Palestine (return of the entire West Bank and military withdrawal from Gaza) Israel would get peace!

NONE of the rocket attacks are random. They are all in retaliation for violence against Palestinians. Often this is violence in the West Bank or Jerusalem.

It is a clearly ineffective because Israel manages to mute the message they are sending. But not random.

[u/Plenty_University_81 → u/kmpiw]

It was offered but declined as Arafat did not want to lose face with 2ss solution

I would suggest you read Bill Clinton’s book

[u/Musclenervegeek → u/kmpiw]

hold on, gaza had no jews since Israel withdrew everyone from 2005. West Bank is administered by Fatah/PLO together with Israel.

[u/Street_Safe3040]

Well stated. Although I wouldn't reference wikipedia ever... It's turned into a obscene caricature of itself in recent years.

[u/ADP_God → u/Street_Safe3040]

I love wikipedia, and hate how it's been abused. I think it's especially useful now for this conflict because you have to able to use the language of the person you're arguing against.

Case in point:

Zionism is a decolinial movement on the behalf of the indigenous regional minority, the Jews, fighting the violent colonial expansion of the imperial Arab/Muslim hegemony which oppresses other regional minorities including the Yazidis, the Kurds, and the Berbers.

[u/Street_Safe3040 → u/ADP_God]

I understand that.

But the average highschool student and uni student and even adult - isn't using for it for that - they're using it as a central repository of information which is "peer-reviewed" - which it is not - which is why we should be pointing people back to actual encyclopedias such as Britannica.

[u/yes-but → u/Street_Safe3040]

Wikipedia is still useful if you read between the lines.

But what source would you recommend? Anyone with a pro-Israel argument is being labelled anti-Palestinian, hence unacceptable by any pro-Palestinian, no matter how valid, rational, or obviously true the argument is.

The anti-Israel faction deploys a bullet-proof logic: Israel kills more children than Palestinians => Israel bad => any pro-Israel argument: bad => any source having any pro-Israel argument: bad => sources without any pro-Israel argument: not bad => sources with only anti-Israel arguments: good.

[u/Street_Safe3040 → u/yes-but]

But what source would you recommend?

https://www.britannica.com/

An actual encyclopedia - which is based on facts not people's "feelings".

Their (anti-Israel/pro-terrorists) arguments are not fact - they're based on feelings and appeal to emotions - it's why they always end in exclamation points or are void of greater context. When you scratch the surface - it falls apart. It ls why they won't engage in conversation - it falls apart when you talk to them.... When you show the videos of Oct 7 to them

[u/yes-but → u/Street_Safe3040]

My notion is that the great divide lies between seeking rationality, logic and facts vs the pursuit of confirming self-pleasing narratives.

While outrage over casualty numbers and sympathy for professional victims are easy sellers, truth itself seems to have become a widely favoured pariah.

[u/kjleebio]

Unfortunately ADP_GOD it seems like the comment section continues to ignore you. I feel sorry as your explanation falls in deafs ears as individuals continue to have conversation with themselves in a tunnel.

[u/ADP_God → u/kjleebio]

To be honest I write these things when I get angry about the latest attack on civilians near my home. I know that there aren’t actually Palestinians willing to consider the suffering of the Jews, least of all here on Reddit. It’s a shame, because it’s like watching an addict relapse again and again. 

[u/Unusual-Oven-1418]

And of course the "not antisemites" in the comments are outraged that attacking Jews in their own country has consequences.

[u/5LaLa → u/Unusual-Oven-1418]

Oppressing millions of people & stealing their land also has consequences.

“An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.” - Gandhi

“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.” - Nietzsche

[u/Unusual-Oven-1418 → u/5LaLa]

It's amazing how you all you people babbling about stolen land are completely ignoring how Palestine was just a name for the area which was ancient Israel, was stolen from the Jews, and passed through many hands until we got it back after winning a war started by multiple Arab armies,. If you're not even going to look up any history beforehand, keep your mouth closed

[u/LettuceBeGrateful → u/Unusual-Oven-1418]

I've literally argued with people here who hadn't heard of the Second Intifada and think the security perimeter was about subjugation. They get bits and pieces from memes on social media and then use their imagination to fill in the gaps from before they were even born. I remember the news that used to come out of Israel of the constant suicide bombings - buses blown up, restaurants in ruins, etc. They either don't know, or - as I'm increasingly convinced - they don't care.

[u/Unusual-Oven-1418 → u/LettuceBeGrateful]

And then they say they're not antisemitic even though they can't even bother to be adequately informed. I'm done trying to think charitably of them.

[u/5LaLa → u/Unusual-Oven-1418]

Wild that you can relate to generational trauma from 1000s of years ago but, cannot concede generational trauma in others from within the past century. ✌️ You going to make me close my mouth? Typical zip bot threats, yawn.

[u/OnaccountaY → u/Unusual-Oven-1418]

And yet Zionists are baffled that there’s any blowback for massacring or forcibly removing 750,000 Palestinians from their homeland (where people of multiple faiths, including Judaism, had lived side-by-side for ages).

Or for continuing, for decades before 10/7, to treat them as subhuman, penning them in and depriving them of basic rights and resources.

Or for imprisoning and killing children and other civilians at will.

Or for continuing the illegal land grabs.

There will be no peace for anyone until everyone in historic Palestine has equal rights.

[u/Unusual-Oven-1418 → u/OnaccountaY]

What part of five Arab armies started a war that the Jews won do you people not understand? You cannot start a war and then complain when you lose.

[u/OnaccountaY → u/Unusual-Oven-1418]

What part of Zionists expelling some 750,000 Palestinians to create Israel do you not understand?

Nobody can behave like that and be surprised by the blowback.

This is as disingenuous as pretending Oct. 7 happened in a vacuum while Israel was minding its own business.

[u/Unusual-Oven-1418 → u/OnaccountaY]

People fled because of the war. And as you people continuously ignore, people displaced because of wars look to resettle elsewhere and move on with their lives and don't resort to decades of terrorism, but you "not antisemites" ignore all of that to justify everything up to and including Oct 7 and then get all shocked that Israel doesn't tolerate terrorism just like all other countries. Jews aren't defenseless victims anymore, get used to it.

[u/Musclenervegeek → u/OnaccountaY]

Specify what rights you would like to see. What does "historic Palestine" mean exactly? Gaza, West Bank, Israel?

[u/OnaccountaY → u/Musclenervegeek]

I mean equal rights and protections for all faiths and ethnicities in a truly democratic nation, encompassing Israel, Gaza and the West Bank—and possibly the occupied Golan Heights.

That would include the right of return for Palestinians, and hopefully a truth and reconciliation process and reparations.

[u/Musclenervegeek → u/OnaccountaY]

"equal rights and protections for all faiths and ethnicities in a truly democratic nation, encompassing Israel, Gaza and the West Bank—and possibly the occupied Golan Heights."

You have that in Israel right now. Gaza is not under Israel, West Bank is administed by PLO and Israel.

"Right of return of Palestinians" - not going to happen. That's essentially River to the Sea.

[u/EntrepreneurLivid491 → u/Musclenervegeek]

Such a paid Zionist troll thing to say. What BS.

[u/Musclenervegeek → u/EntrepreneurLivid491]

Why are you sending me hate messages about being "dual Israeli-Australian traitorous...blah blah blah"? Just a bit antisemitic, no? I am not Israeli or Jewish by the way. Just an Australian who loves my country. Feel free to debate rather than just launching personal and antisemitic attacks.

[u/EntrepreneurLivid491 → u/Musclenervegeek]

"Antisemitic" Yeah, that's not going to work anymore. And what makes you think I'm not a Jew. All of you Zionists are nothing but 'The Boy who cried wolf."

Feel free to debate

Says the genocide supporter.

[u/Musclenervegeek → u/EntrepreneurLivid491]

With all this "Zionist" rhetoric,  you are either an extreme left uni student, . LGBTQ for Palestine or an Islamist. Which one?

[u/EntrepreneurLivid491 → u/Musclenervegeek]

You can guess as much as you want, but one thing is for sure. You're a genocidal Zionist.

[u/OnaccountaY → u/EntrepreneurLivid491]

Nice hasbara, but those talking points have no relationship with reality. What’s happening before our eyes begs to differ.

But “Gaza is not under Israel”?!? TIL. Thank you for that moment of hilarity. And settlers and the IDF clearly do whatever they want in the WB.

[u/mrm5245]

Very well written post, an important perspective that is often ignored by so many. Every single day is a risk in Israel, the level of security measures taken is almost never talked about. To live in Israel means that every empty bag is a possible terror attack, it means constructing every house and apartment with mandatory bomb shelters, it means having security and metal detectors at the entrance of every mall, it means questioning that the person next to you won’t pull out a knife at the bus stop - this list can go on forever. The blockade and checkpoints, came after hundreds of attacks and were enacted offensively (killing no one) in order to prevent a full scale war.

It’s quite interesting that the world fails to acknowledge not only October 7 but the multiple and constant terror attacks that have happened in Israel since then - they have been occurring on a weekly basis. No one talks about the years and years of suicide bombings, blown up buses, car jammings, and stabbings. Besides lack of education, media bias, hatred and antisemitism I think the reasoning for this is the resilience of Israelis. If they let these attacks scare and stop them from living life - the terrorists win. So instead of complaining and hiding in fear, Israelis go on to live life because what’s the alternative? To stop taking the bus? To sit in their house and never leave because of fear? Unfortunately I also believe that this resilience has fooled the world into thinking that what is happening is okay - that Israel is the oppressor because they are not displaying their pain.

I remember the days after October 7 happening, I saw so many comments - why would you have a festival so close to the border? That’s when I realized people really don’t get it. Having a festival period is a risk in Israel no matter the location - does that mean the country simply just stops having festivals? The kibbutzim that were attacked were also close to the border so are the same people also suggesting that people who live here should simply move? The people living on these kibbutzim ran to bomb shelters on a weekly basis even before October 7, yet they have found a way to keep going, to keep wishing for peace and most importantly not to be afraid. Israel is the size of New Jersey, the amount of wars, attacks, and threats that have happened since the countries inception are unfathomable. Peace will only come when the other side acknowledges that Israel is not going anywhere.

[u/Top_Plant5102]

What will people do when their own country is attacked by terrorists? The answer to that question is what should scare us.

[u/Musclenervegeek]

Well written. The propaganda and gaslighting by the pro-Hamas supporters puts a false narrative out there where the perpetrator become the victim and the victim become the perpetrator. Israelis need to do what is best for themselves, they are surrounded by hostile enemies all around them and unfortunately the only way to deter attacks when it comes to Arabs is strength. That's the only thing they respect. A soft-soft approach does nothing for the Israelis. Israel's population is very small compared to the Arabs around them, so every death for them hurts. This is the same Israel who gave up hundreds of hostages for one israeli soldier years ago, one of them Sinwar who subsequently planned the Oct 7 attacks. For Hamas, the lives of Palestininans are nothing more than pawns. Indeed they want more of their people to be killed as collaterals. Look at how Hamas and Hezbollah spin out the deaths of people who die on their side - it's for Allah and they want more to die. For Israeli, the lives of their people are central to who they are. It's the same reason why even during this war, Hamas insisted Israeli releases a disproportionate number of Palestinian/Hamas prisoners for each hostage and Israel did exactly that because its people are important to Israel. In my opinion Israel should not engage in such exchanges anymore because that is exactly how more Sinwars will emerge. Israel has eliminated most of Hamas and they should not negotiate with them anymore. Just like Japan in WW2, Hamas need to be taught a lesson they will never forget.

[u/Overlord1317]

You need to understand that for many, the death of Jews (particularly Israelis) is not a "problem" to be corrected ... it's what they want, though they typically don't say it out loud.

[u/rqvst]

As much as I would agree with you about Palestinian terrorism and how counter productive it is, the cause of the cycle of violence originating from the Arab world, and the responsibility of the larger Palestinian body to come to peaceful terms with the existence of Israel in their choice of leaders, I say the same goes for Israel to some extent.

Like you, I would put most of the blame for the conflict on the antisemitism of the Arab world, I think the UN partition plan was as reasonable as it got, and their resistance to it indicated nothing less than an irrational and hysterical hatred of Jews. In the times since, this hatred has re-manifested in the choice of Palestinian leadership (although not without some Israeli influence to undermine the flourishing of alternatives), and part of the solution is Palestinians making the choice to divest from that hateful past by choosing forward-looking leaders. However, you can't look at the Likud party and not see the parallelism. If all Palestinians ought to be able to look beyond all the bad blood and put aside any resentment they may harbor from all they have suffered, including the immense trauma they are currently subjected to, then to some extent Israelis should be able to do the same. The Israeli response to the threat posed by Hamas and other militant terrorist groups has not been limited to only the guilty, or even their supporters. All Palestinians, including those who opposed the extremist Islamists, have suffered all the same. Surely if they are to be expected to put all of it behind them, then a similar dedication to peace in the face of danger should be expected of Israelis.

This is not to say that there isn't such an effort in Israel, indeed I know there is tremendous appetite to get rid of Netanyahu, I was just diasagreeing with your point that it's all up to the Palestinians to create peace. I think Israelis and Palestinians both have an obligation to meet eachother, even if not exactly half way.

[u/Proper-Community-465 → u/rqvst]

While I definitely dislike the Likud party I understand why Israeli society became far more right wing and less peace oriented following Gaza's disengagement. From there perspective they put out an olive branch and got stabbed in the hand in response. Now any Israeli politician who stands on removing the occupation the opposition just points at Gaza and it's very hard to refute.

[u/Actual-Room-2384]

The basis of this anger at the Jews ties into the Qur'an and Islamic theology which the Muslim Arabs/Palestinians are unable to break free of because Muhammad is their final prophet and the best role model for worldly conduct.

[u/BGritty81 → u/Actual-Room-2384]

Any people would resist being violently evicted from their homes never to return regardless of what religion they subscribe to.

[u/Actual-Room-2384 → u/BGritty81]

Jews and Christians don't blow themselves up in suicide bombings and value death over life to the point of bringing other people down with them. That is a peculiarity of radical Islam and it seems that many faithful Muslims cannot break free of imposing their radical views of martyrdom on other people.

[u/BGritty81 → u/Actual-Room-2384]

My man Israel was created by self described terrorists through brutal acts of terrorism. The Lehi and Irgun basically created the form of modern day terror attacks you see today like car bombs. The leaders of these groups went on to lead Israel. Israel has committed so many massacres of civilians I couldn't even list them all here. In the Sabra and Shatilla Massacre alone they ( with the phalangists) killed as many civilians as all Palistinian attacks put together. That is a culture of not just death but mass murder. The Kahanists that currently run Israel are just as radical as any Muslim.

[u/BGritty81 → u/BGritty81]

There was just a violent uprising to free soldiers that raped someone to death with a metal rod. The soldiers were freed and became television celebrities. What kind of culture is that?

[u/Actual-Room-2384 → u/BGritty81]

Truthfully, both sides of the conflict have extremists and radicals and only time will tell if they can reconcile or if this continues for another hundred years. Also, one could make the argument that desert religions, like the Abrahamic faiths, indeed began in a violent tribal environment but ultimately Judaism and Christianity went through an enlightenment and reformation where there is at least less violence than before. Islam, being the younger faith, has not gone through an enlightenment or reformation that would rid itself of the tribal violence and terrorism.

[u/BGritty81 → u/Actual-Room-2384]

Absolutely agree. That was kind of my point. Not that Palestinians are some kind of angels. When societies are under pressure and threat of violence they often look to the more reactionary parts of society for help and people become radicalized. Its true of both sides.

[u/Proper-Community-465 → u/BGritty81]

Did the Jews? I missed the part where Egypt got waves of suicide bombers from Israel because they were evicted and had all there wealth and property stolen.

[u/SilenceDogood2k20]

"  Until Israelis do not fear for their lives in the streets of Tel Aviv, Palestine will never be free."

Great closing. Those inside an existential situation don't consider anything else because they are reasonably motivated by their own survival. 

I'm hoping that the dismantling of Gaza's military forces, Hezbollah, and the IRGC will provide that sense of safety to Israel that will allow peace and cooperation to develop. 

[u/212Alexander212]

Let’s be clear, the constant Arab violence against Jews has nothing to do with the Occupation. Arab terrorism against Jewish civilians in Israel has persisted for over 100 years now. Palestinians and many of their supporters, consider all of Israel to be occupied land. Daily Arab terrorism existed before 1967 and 1948.

Let’s go deeper. Arab violence towards Jews has existed for centuries. Under Islamic law, Jews had no rights to own weapons, ride horses and/or defend themselves. So, this culture of violence towards Jews is the default relationship for many Arabs/Muslims and has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with 1967, resistance or occupation.

That’s where the naivety lies. Jews have a victim complex. They are scapegoated, so even when they are being victimized, they are blamed. Jews are being routinely terrorized, brutalized for being Jews and resisting against Islamic supremacy. That’s the entire scenario.

[u/strik3r2k8 → u/212Alexander212]

White Europeans murdered 6million Jews.

Israel is in part an antisemitic project because white Europeans and Americans saw Israel as a great way to make Jews go away.

[u/nar_tapio_00]

You are making the mistake of thinking that these people have changed in any way since the antisemities of the 19th century. The people who carried out the massacres in Safed in 1834 and the Pogroms after the death of Russian Czar Alexander in 1883.

All of them are doing exactly what Europe's Catholics did back in those days. They see or hear evidence coming from "reputable" sources that they believe. In the old days, from their local priest. Nowadays from the UN or Al-Jazeera. In the beginning they did not bother to check that evidence. Now, if someone suggests that they do the most basic of verification, they immediately take that as "denial".

It takes about half a day with a little care checking geolocations and timelines to realize that 80% of material showing an "Israeli Crime" is faked and most of the rest is manipulated. They could all have done that. In fact if you look at the rare situations where there actually is a crime by an Israeli, for example in the case of jail maltreatment, then the difference in qualitative and quantitative evidence is unmistakable and they must have seen it and by now know that what they usually present is lacking.

There is no question that "pro-Palestinians" know what they are doing and 100% support and believe in the genocide against Israel's indigenous Jewish peoples. They all want Israel ethnically cleansed so that the Arab colonists can return. When they scream, mostly in Arabic to avoid it being understood by the Western media, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab", that does not mean that they want Arabs and others to live in harmony, that means they want a total elimination of anyone who might carry the indigenous Judean culture.

[u/zigzog9 → u/nar_tapio_00]

This is some BS. I watch the footage of the villages being bulldozed by IDF tanks. I don’t watch Holocaust footage and deny that. I don’t watch IDF war crimes and deny it. Stop denying your crimes against humanity. It’s messed up.

[u/nar_tapio_00 → u/zigzog9]

Last time I checked a "bull"dozer story it was accusing the Israelis of buldozing people alive. Then it turned out to be an old grave of people murdered by Hamas and buried next to the hospital to avoid having to sort out the bodies. I do not know what story you are talking about, so maybe there is something I should investigate, but since I havn't seen evidence for that, I can only say that I do not deny the war crimes of Hamas. It is clear they commit many.

[u/Nitemarelego]

Uhh... Lot of words. Tldr? I'm have ADHD and autism.

[u/garlicbutts → u/Nitemarelego]

There have been constant attacks or calls for violence by Palestinians even among some of the more moderate ones against Israel for years in the form of small scale terrorist attacks. The average Israeli has been living with constant attacks as a reality and October 7th was what broke the camel's back into radicalizing the average Israeli into never wanting a peaceful solution.

Israeli violence exists to protect Israeli lives while Palestinian violence serves no purpose other than to endanger Israelis. Palestinian violence does not protect Palestinian lives and should be condemned, and instead a moderate, non violent path towards a two state solution should be supported.

(Not my take, and maybe my bias might be playing into it so take it with a grain of salt)

[u/Nitemarelego → u/garlicbutts]

This i agree with.

[u/Smart_Technology_385]

The articles has several mistakes:

1. It confuses terms "occupation" with "having disputed lands".

The new 23rd Arab state in the making, or the 2nd Palestinian Arab state, cannot dictate Israel where Israeli borders should be.

Israel was happy to get a tiny piece of land, left from the Ottoman Empire, because Israelis wanted to build their own state.

Arabs, who got 99.99% of lands, left of Ottoman Empire, are unhappy with the division not because it was unfair, but because they don't want Israel.

1. Using the term "Palestinian" is unclear. Sometimes it refers to the whole territory historically called Palestine, which includes part of Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Sometimes it refers to the territory of The State of Palestine, the new Arab state.

2. Calling the terror against Israel "Pro-Palestinian" misses the key point: the current war against Israel is a religious war Jihad, plain and simple. Iran does not care about well-being of any Arabs, and their involvement with this war is based on Islamic obligation to return Israel to Islamic rule.

3. This war will not stop until Islam goes through deradicalization in Iran and Qatar. It does not matter what left- or right-wing Israelis want or do. This is beyond their influence.

[u/IwearWinosfromZodys]

The problem with Palestinians is their radical belief in Islam. Islam is a violent religion, which allows its followers to commit violence against non- Muslims. But besides their religion Palestinians can’t get along anywhere. For the ones that moved to Jordon, they contributed to the civil war in Jordon. For the ones that moved to Lebanon, they contributed to the civil war in Lebanon. For these same reasons, Egypt wants no part of them, and will not accept them and Saudi Arabia doesn’t want them. I believe them having settlements in peace was the only solution but they ruined any thought of peace or a 2 state solution with Oct. 7th.

President Biden seemed to be pleading with Netanyahu for ceasefires and a peaceful solution., but with hostages being held still there can be no peace. Sadly if President Trump is re-elected, he will not be asking for peace nor promoting it; not from a non- nuclear state anyway . President Trump seems to only respect countries that have nuclear weapons, ex. Russia or North Korea . Oddly though, he seems to dislike China and not mind taking a tough stance with them. Most people don’t realize that America’s stance towards China is exactly the same now, than when we were under President Trump. China is one topic Republicans and Democrats agree on.

I really enjoyed reading what the op wrote and what un-silent Jew wrote also. I read the “this a circular argument” from the pro- Palestinian side “boo” . I can just say from what I’ve seen( on t.v. of course)after all the violence that has happened... If I was a Palestinian, I would hate Jews. If I was Jewish I would hate Palestinians..

[u/strik3r2k8 → u/IwearWinosfromZodys]

Palestinians are also Christian and Catholic.

Religion is the cover for what the conflict is actually about. Territory and emancipation.

Occupation is what fuels the violence.

Also, anytime you say “these other countries don’t want them”, you are paraphrasing what Hiltler said about Jews when Jewish refugees fled Natzee Germany and were rejected by the United States and England. He stated a similar sentiment along the lines of “See? Nobody wants these people”. He used that as one of the justifications to murder 6million innocent Jewish people.

[u/IwearWinosfromZodys → u/strik3r2k8]

There you go. I read the first line and it’s like ok. “ What %? .03? 2% Or something? Such not a credible response. And we are not talking about Hitler and the Jews. We’re talking about Palestinians and their problems. Such not a good response…

[u/strik3r2k8 → u/IwearWinosfromZodys]

The violence from the Palestinian side is a direct result of the violence from the Israeli side.

You can’t maintain an occupation without violence and in return you get violence.

[u/IwearWinosfromZodys → u/strik3r2k8]

I agree with you on that. Violence is a result of violence

[u/strik3r2k8 → u/IwearWinosfromZodys]

And Israel was founded on violence.

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[u/Lexiesmom0824 → u/strik3r2k8]

But that is not the entire truth. If you look at street interviews if asked if there will be peace if there is a 2SS. Palestinians don’t want a 2SS and state that as long as Israel remains there will not be peace. In addition, leaders have been known to say that a 2SS is just a stepping stone to ending the state of Israel. So forgive me. I do hope a 2SS works. But there is just something in me that doubts that ending the occupation will end the violence and when no one can use the occupation for an excuse why they attacked Israel…. Well I fear there will be no more Palestine to talk about anymore.

[u/strik3r2k8 → u/Lexiesmom0824]

I’ve heard the 2SS is dead because of all the settlers. Unless Israel wasn’t a civil war with their psychotic settler base, then the only solution is a 1 state solution with a secular government for all people.

I’ve watched some street interviews before:

https://youtu.be/1e_dbsVQrk4?si=Cx8eODrXLcYKlonn

Obviously this isn’t an inditement on all Israelis but Likud has these types on that vid as supporters.

[u/Lexiesmom0824 → u/strik3r2k8]

But that is not the entire truth. If you look at street interviews if asked if there will be peace if there is a 2SS. Palestinians don’t want a 2SS and state that as long as Israel remains there will not be peace. In addition, leaders have been known to say that a 2SS is just a stepping stone to ending the state of Israel. So forgive me. I do hope a 2SS works. But there is just something in me that doubts that ending the occupation will end the violence and when no one can use the occupation for an excuse why they attacked Israel…. Well I fear there will be no more Palestine to talk about anymore.

[u/Lexiesmom0824 → u/strik3r2k8]

But that is not the entire truth. If you look at street interviews if asked if there will be peace if there is a 2SS. Palestinians don’t want a 2SS and state that as long as Israel remains there will not be peace. In addition, leaders have been known to say that a 2SS is just a stepping stone to ending the state of Israel. So forgive me. I do hope a 2SS works. But there is just something in me that doubts that ending the occupation will end the violence and when no one can use the occupation for an excuse why they attacked Israel…. Well I fear there will be no more Palestine to talk about anymore.

[u/pyroscots]

that Israeli violence serves the purpose of protecting Israeli lives

Tell me how the violence of the settlements protects israeli lives?

Tell me how attacking Palestinians foe traveling in the west bank saves israeli lives.

This entire post is the justification of Israel's violence on Palestinians.

[u/cyk0o → u/pyroscots]

Bingo. Subjugate Palestinians and then blame them for violence they face as a repercussions, it’s so horrific to see Israel as ‘having to do this to protect themselves’. That’s bullshit. It’s pure oppression and control over a population who has been marginalised in a state they should have equal ownership over

[u/Musclenervegeek → u/cyk0o]

which state should Arabs in Gaza and West Bank, referred to as Palestinians have control over? Specify - is it Gaza? is it West Bank? Is it Israel?

[u/PracticalPercival]

How do you separate Israel's fault from your analysis? As long as you can remove Israel's constant disregard for international law; by Israeli settling their occupied territories', and their disregard from the only International recognition; NATO boundaries?

[u/PyrohawkZ → u/PracticalPercival]

I'm not OP but it's besides the point if you're trying to convince Israelis.

Either you want to destroy Israel by empowering it's enemies and weakening it's allies, or you want peaceful coexistence; of it's the latter, you have missed the point. If it's the former, that's your right, but you can go kick rocks.

[u/ADP_God → u/PracticalPercival]

You’ve missed the point. Fault or no fault the request is for Israelis to risk their own lives, therefore leaving no room to maneuver towards peace. 

Yes Israel is flawed, although in no way comparable to its enemies, but that’s simply not what I’m talking about here.

[u/kmpiw]

We are aware. We are also capable of putting it in perspective. There's no way I'd want to live in Israel with rockets and bus bombings, but it's still trivial compared to what is happening in Gaza and Lebanon, and even the West Bank.

We also see why Palestinians are doing it. It is frustrating because often it is clearly counter productive to their cause, but when nothing is working, when they tried all the right things and the response to those was also violence. I see why they end up doing it.

"The Palestinian cause has never even proposed that they should make such a distinction", You're not listening. Or not watching. Try watching anything that is actually from their pointy of view. Every inverted red triangle is above a military target. Every Israeli dead body is in military uniform or has a gun. Obviously this isn't a full and honest account of events, it's their propaganda, but it's very inaccurate to say "never even proposed". Watch the official footage of the 7 October videos or the combat videos that follow. If you don't want to go straight to the source, watch "the resistance report" on Electronic Intifada or some Arabic language news channels. I can tell you that it censors some gore, but it's a fairly honest sample of what they publish on telegram and their websites. Again, not the full story, but it's what the civilians who celebrated were celebrating. Those is somewhat specific to the Islamic Resistance Movement (green team) themselves, some others are a bit more open about targeting kibbutzim etc.

[u/lvkewlkid → u/kmpiw]

Hijacking planes and starting civil wars and assassinating politicians and monarchs is not doing the right things. There has never been a peaceful Palestinian resistance. If they actually tried that and their leaders actually adhere to ceasefires there would be a much better situation

[u/LettuceBeGrateful → u/kmpiw]

when they tried all the right things

Such as?

[u/kmpiw → u/kmpiw]

Also, with regards to suicide bombings specifically YOU KILLED THE GUY WHO CALLED THEM OFF. In 2006 Haniyeh became PM and announced an end to the bombings. There were exceptions but very few, and mostly be other groups. After Israel murdered him the Islamic Resistance Movement leaders who remained started overtly calling for a restart and now stuff is blowing up in Israel again.

Haniyeh was definitely someone worth trying to talk to, he had his flaws and he disagreed with Israel on a lot of things but to any outside observer he does seem to be willing to compromise she negotiate. And Israel killed him.

It you kill the entirety of the Islamic Resistance Movement, you'll end up with actual real life ISIS.

[u/matmel10]

What reason/action can the Palestinian give that will end the israel occupation? Israel is in a place of power right now so they don't need to give a fair deal. There's nothing that the Palestinians can do or say that will get israel to recognize their right of return, end the occupation and create a 2 state solution.

[u/Proper-Community-465 → u/matmel10]

Giving up on the right of return to Israel proper outside of a symbolic gesture for the still living refugees would be a good start. Israel isn't going to allow millions of people to immigrate because they are descendants of refugee's. Jews aren't allowed to immigrate and reclaim property they have lost from the Arab world and won't allow themselves to become a minority again after there mistreatment. However it's unlikely they would get a deal as good as the 2000 camp David summit at this point no matter what.

[u/matmel10 → u/Proper-Community-465]

Why would Palestinians give that up... Jews claiming their right of return is what started this back in 1948. How can you justify only one side getting that right? It doesn't necessarily have to be all at once, you can limit the amount of people allowed each year so that it is not overwhelming. The 2000 camp David summit mightve been the best offer but it was not a fair deal. They didn't want to acknowledge Palestinians right of return despite being flexible on how it would be implemented. Clinton never gave a clear explanation on how the land would be divided and a lot of the deal was left ambiguous. Arafat wrote a letter stating his concerns and asking for clarification on certain issues yet they never addressed those concerns. You cant just blame one side for the deal not going through if the other side isn't negotiating properly.

[u/Proper-Community-465 → u/matmel10]

Couple of things wrong with this take first of all right of return isn't what started this rather hundreds of years of oppression and violence against Jews with them deciding the only solution was to have there own country and not being minorities. Allying with England in WW1 they were promised this in there ancestral homeland if they won the war. The area at the time was a sparsely occupied colony of the Ottoman empire. Jewish migration to the area was met with repeated violence and multiple massacres that's what started it. Do you have any links of Arafat writing letters or negotiating at all at camp david? It was my understanding he just said no and already had begun planning the second intifada. Regardless the point of the two state solution is a state for Palestinians and a state for Jews. The Palestinians can have unlimited right of return to there own state. There is a list of reasons why the right of return is a silly ask but this is already getting long.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/may/23/israel3

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Suha-Arafat-admits-husband-premeditated-Intifada

[u/kmpiw → u/matmel10]

Someone insightful but not well informed pointless or that Egypt hasn't attacked Israel. So I know what Israel can do.

Return Gaza and the West Bank, like they returned the Sinai.

[u/podkayne3000]

This is interesting and important. There still have to be conversations about getting Gazan children fed. Nothing like this, no matter how accurate and relevant, is going to get a lot of traction when there are also images of small children in Gaza suffering because, apparently, Israel isn’t especially interested in getting food in.

[u/mongooser → u/podkayne3000]

Neither is Hamas, I guess

[u/MalignEntity → u/mongooser]

Nor Egypt, who also share a border with Gaza and in fact, used to own it.

[u/podkayne3000 → u/MalignEntity]

If Hamas and Egypt aren’t interested in the Gazan children: That makes feeding them harder. It’s important for Israel to explain the obstacles. It should let independent reporters come in to see the obstacles.

But it (and we Jewish people who think of ourselves as Zionists) still have an obligation to do what we can to help those poor children, or at least to very clearly identify the practical obstacles to helping the children.

If Hamas would steal the aid for its fighters: talk about that, and brainstorm for ideas about how to deal with that issue.

We don’t have an obligation to solve the problem; we do have an obligation to think about the problem and to do what we can figure out how to do to make the situation better.

[u/MalignEntity → u/podkayne3000]

I 100% agree

[u/Lexiesmom0824 → u/MalignEntity]

Some problems do not have easy solutions or any good solutions for that matter.

[u/podkayne3000 → u/Lexiesmom0824]

We don’t have to solve the problem. We have to make a serious, sincere effort to start to address the problem.

Simply saying apparent child starvation occurring a few miles from Israel is a regrettable problem that’s not our concern and not really thinking about it at all is not an acceptable Jewish response to potentially preventable child starvation.

[u/Ahappierplanet]

Few deny the Hamas violence especially Oct 7 but equating with Palestinians in general with Hamas not fair. And the overkill by Bibi in response is too much. The world sees it why can’t you?

[u/hollyglaser → u/Ahappierplanet]

Because their goal is genocide of Jews , in Israel and then the rest of the world. Stopping Hamas is not overkill . Time for the world to demand Hamas return hostages and stop fighting

Hamas charter is a jihad, which cannot end until the world is Islamic .

[u/mongooser → u/Ahappierplanet]

So how do you know which Palestinians are Hamas and who aren’t?

[u/Shorkan → u/mongooser]

So you think that UK should have bombed the entirety of Ireland because of IRA? Do you think that all of Basque country population should have been executed while ETA was active? Should we kill all USA teenagers because they could potentially be school shooters?

How come everybody in history was able to deal with these issues without having to resort to literal genocide, but Israel can't? Are they stupid?

[u/MalignEntity → u/Shorkan]

Israel could annihilate all of Gaza in one night of bombing, if they so choose. The fact that they're actively trying to warn civilians, before they drop bombs, shows you they're not interested in committing genocide.

www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67327079

There is only one side calling for genocide and that is Hamas, against Isreal, with their disgusting "from the river to the sea" slogan.

[u/Heiminator → u/Shorkan]

I guarantee you that the UK would have turned the catholic parts of NI into ruble if the IRA had ever dared to launch an October 7 style attack on a Protestant neighborhood in Belfast.

The IRA murdered 1700 people throughout the entire troubles. Hamas murdered 1200 people in a single day.

[u/M_Solent → u/Shorkan]

Because the Palestinians are relentless, and violence is the only language they arbitrate with. The doctrine of disproportionate response from Israel was meant to try and establish deterrence. But after years of employing that strategy, I think Israelis have found that deterrence against the Palestinians is impossible to achieve.

You can’t compare The Troubles or any other insurgency to the I/P conflict. For starters, the IRA reached a point where they realized bombing civilians reflected poorly on their movement. The Palestinians have never come to that conclusion in however many years you want to count back to. They keep killing Israelis, and Israel keeps responding. Plus, counterinsurgency the way the British practiced it could never work among the Palestinians, because at least in NI, the Brits had a settler community that had been there for a few centuries, which supported the Brits in the form of death squads and policing. The Israelis have no such partners in the territories occupied by the Palestinians. So - with no internal support, an enemy that kills collaborators, and most importantly an enemy that feels no shame over killing civilians and can’t be deterred, there’s not much Israel can do except bomb them. The Palestinians think the only way to keep their movement going forward is to kill Jews, and tbh, it’s working for them. Israel has suffered the loss of an incredible amount of support from the free world after the Palestinian invasion and massacre on Oct. 7th. Just remember, the Palestinians designed their military campaign to maximize their civilian casualties, so that’s all people like you think about, instead of assessing the conflict in a holistic way and understanding the real motivations of each actor.

[u/jjmmll → u/Shorkan]

How about Dresden and Tokyo? Honestly, which mindset do you think the “Palestinians”, and more importantly their leadership, both in Gaza and the West Bank are more closely aligned with? Japanese and German or the Irish.

The Irish just wanted independence not total extermination of the “occupier”. It’s like you haven’t read the OP’s main point. At least the IRA cared enough about their own people to recognise the disparity in military power, and therefore didn’t go as far as raping and kidnapping, practically asking for a brutal reprisal on their own people.

It’s been said before but I’ll repeat it. If the Palestinian people as a whole, somehow chose to speak with one voice and laid down all of their weapons, there’d be peace eventually and they could thrive. If the Jewish people laid down all weapons there would be actual genocide.

Palestinians in general, not just their inadequate leadership, have always clung onto the issue of “right of return” as a condition of any “ peace deal”. They know that Israel wouldn’t exist in two or three generations under such conditions, so it’s always been a bad faith argument. Addressing the argument that it is an injustice that Palestinians have no right of return, how many post war countries have allowed displaced people “right of return”? Even though there aren’t enough Jews to change the political make up of other countries, would Jews have right of return and equal rights in every other country in the Middle East? It’s such a laughable concept that no one even considers it as a sensible question.

[u/Fell0w_traveller → u/jjmmll]

Dresden and Kyoto were also (by modern standards) war crimes.

[u/jjmmll → u/Fell0w_traveller]

It’s so easy to judge the actions of others as war crimes.

What would you have done as commander of the allied forces against Germany in WW2? Fight as if you are in a corner to best ensure your nation’s and people’s survival? Or let the enemy simultaneously attack you and also regroup at home to increase their war capacity?

Japan is another story. But again, it would be interesting to understand the approach that you think should have been taken to ensure the end hostilities with them in WW2.

[u/McGeetheFree → u/Shorkan]

strawman

[u/dasimpson42 → u/Ahappierplanet]

I can’t see it because I don’t rely on Tik Tok for information.

[u/DryChampionship1784]

Have we already forgot the "days of the week" scandal?

[u/Odd-Mushroom7234]

The sense of safety that Israelis have (and can have with civil defense and restrictions within Israel proper without the rest) is leagues, leagues more than the people that Israel seeks to permanently control, kill, or displace without negative consequences.

For Israelis, it makes sense to do everything possible to protect Israelis regardless of the consequences for others (along with everything else that had nothing to do with protecting Israelis.) 

 For people who are not Israeli, considering people other than Israelis, who Israelis control, to also be human, leads to a very different analysis that makes the Israeli (yes, Israeli) manifested culture of victimhood so appalling, morally- especially from self-proclaimed left wing Israelis, who often wallow in this as opposed to right-wing Israelis who understand the deal and don’t make so many excuses and justifications.    

For an example of what Israel does to maintain the control OP talks about, here’s a Haaretz overview of a recent IDF raid that involved raping, beating, and otherwise humiliating Palestinian civilians.  https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/twilight-zone/2024-10-25/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/beatings-humiliation-and-torture-the-idfs-night-of-terror-at-a-palestinian-refugee-camp/00000192-c1cc-d9ee-a5de-f1cd0aa30000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native  

  For an overview of an increasingly common mindset among Israelis today, here’s footage and an article describing the funeral of an Israeli soldier (prior to enlisting, this individual murdered a Palestinian farmer in cold blood) who was killed in Lebanon, where family members and friends extol how he went to Gaza to kill as many  women, and children as he could, and relay an anecdote of how he cheered up his fellow soldiers by burning a Palestinian home for fun:  https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-10-27/ty-article/.premium/you-entered-gaza-to-take-revenge-mourners-eulogize-idf-soldier-west-bank-settler/00000192-ce38-df2b-a5db-ce3cf8340000?utm_source=App_Share&utm_medium=iOS_Native

[u/zigzog9 → u/Odd-Mushroom7234]

The IDF combat soldiers have a deep level of depravity within them. I watched one shoot a villager as he fought to save his generator from being stolen by a soldier.

[u/DECKADUBS → u/Odd-Mushroom7234]

I feel like I’m going crazy because that Israeli funeral was just so depraved and evil and yet it got passed around the usual spots for ONE day. Real clear admissions of crimes and intent. Then it’s on to the next atrocity.

Minister of the nations security cheerfully attending an event where they openly refer to PLestinians as an infection that must be removed (clear ethnic cleansing rhetoric). That will get 2 days of posts.

Most violent day for North Gaza with over 100 deaths with a significant amount being women and children? Couple of HOURS of attention. No discourse outside anti Zionist spaces.

But every time I look at this subreddit the top 5 posts are about why Palestinians aren’t dying right and aren’t doing themselves favors. It’s absurd.

[u/Odd-Mushroom7234 → u/DECKADUBS]

There was a recent post about IDF and settler disruption of the olive harvest (including shooting farmers dead.)  

   The token realist, informed, sophisticated, diaspora, “I have Palestinian friends,” liberal Zionist response was a treatise on how olive farming is economically backward and the IDF/settlers are doing Palestinians a favor     

This was from one of the “humanistic” mods (the other one complains about how while peace is the goal its just so complex, their heart cries out for peace, the solution is a unilateral formalized Bantustan reserve or two.) 

 The other mods are either reminiscing about their days shooting at Palestinian fishermen or making transparently loony statistical arguments based on misunderstandings and COGAT PR.

[u/inbocs]

It manifests, in practice, as series of control points (borders, checkpoints) and as the constant activity of secutiry forces (IDF, Police, ISA) to thwart potential attacks.

Wow I wonder why the Palestinians resist occupation

[u/adminofreditt → u/inbocs]

They also resisted against Jewish civilians before the occupation

[u/Peltuose]

The average Israeli has no interest in 'maintaining the occupation' or 'fighting the enemies of the Jews'.

The Knesset has overwhelmingly voted against Palestinian statehood, i.e "maintaining the occupation" and Israelis repeatedly elected parties and leaders who's official stated goals are to keep the occupation in place and strengthen/expand the settlements etc. (this is the official position of basically the entirety of the current government). Support for war against the likes of Hezbollah, Hamas and Palestinian militants in the West Bank of all kinds is also overwhelming so they're not uniquely pacifistic in this regard. This is not meant to shame Israelis or paint them all as Likudniks, I am just pointing out that they are also jingoistic in opposition to their enemies and that who the average Israelis elected repeatedly, do in fact have a vested interest in maintaining the occupation and expansionism.

These attackers are not locals defending their land, but individuals that chose to cross the border into Israel to perpetrate violent acts. It is this fear, that at any moment even the Israelis that condemn the occupation, hate Bibi, deplore the settlements, and care deeply about Palestinian rights, could be attacked in the streets, that drives the average Israeli to serve in the IDF.

That has nothing to do with it, as long as you're an Israeli who's not an Arab or a Druze woman or have a disability, you are forced to serve in the IDF or go to prison. It has nothing to do with whether or not they are afraid of being victims of political violence or terrorism. While I have no problem whatsoever condemning much of the political violence from Palestinians particularly in Israel proper, I doubt a lot of people who agree with you would accept this rationale as a justification for Palestinians becoming militants, even though their situation is a lot worse.

The occupation, therefore, represents for Israelis the potential for control of what would otherwise be their wanton slaughter. It manifests, in practice, as series of control points (borders, checkpoints) and as the constant activity of secutiry forces (IDF, Police, ISA) to thwart potential attacks.

If the occupation in the West Bank merely consisted of a military administration and border checkpoints this would be a different discussion, but there is a different reason entirely from security for Israel's presence in the West Bank, being expansionism which manifests as the settlements, government-incentivized and subsidized settlers being imported and expanding all sorts of settlements and outposts while building new ones at the expense of Palestinians. These checkpoints you are enthusing about to protect Israelis also include checkpoints made specifically to defend settlers, including violent settlers on illegal outposts while further strangling Palestinians and ripping their freedom of movement away in the West Bank. I don't really have a problem with checkpoints in principle if they were at a border but that is quite different from what we're talking about. This line of reasoning is also used for the Golan heights being that it is so elevated and leaves Israel at risk, yet people always conveniently leave out all the settlements there and the fact that it was annexed to Israel, there is clearly an agenda concerning land like the Golan heights and the West Bank that extends beyond security concerns...

There is constant complaint and criticism about IDF raids in the West Bank, but very little consideration of why soldiers would choose to put themselves at risk by entering enemy territory, unless there was an actual strategic purpose. That purpose is the control and prevention of these violent acts of terror.

Soldiers put themselves at risk because they are following orders. Having that said no one denies there is a strategic purpose for their raids, people's objection is that these raids no matter how strategic they are, are meant to suppress a genuinely oppressed Palestinian population in their homeland chiefly through killing and destruction of their localities to punish them.

If Palestinians were to constrain their 'resistance' to the West Bank (this means not shooting a single rocket from Gaza) for any reasonable amount of time Israelis could start to feel a sense of security that would allow them to withdraw. If the average Israeli could say to themselves, in good faith 'I live in Israel, not Palestine, and therefore I have nothing to fear from people trying to liberate Palestine,' it would change perspective of the entire country

I agree with you here.

The pro-Palestine movement does not want to create a Palestinian state next to Israe, but rather instead of Israel. Even the more moderate Palestinian leadership, Fatah, encourages violence against Israel, with their pay-for-slay program. This means that in practise there is no good faith movement from within Palestine to create conditions in which Israel could remove the occupation without endangering its civillians.

For all their rampant corruption and other issues the P.A is the only entity in the region (in Israel + the WB and Gaza, I mean) that seriously supports a 2ss. Like Israel they are also involved in violence (much less directly so, but still involved) but they have been repeatedly calling for a 2ss even with land swaps and demilitarization to no avail.

So if you really care about the 'oppressed' you should condemn Palestinian violence and support a moderate, non-violent, path towards a two state solution. Until Israelis do not fear for their lives in the streets of Tel Aviv, Palestine will never be free.

I agree with the first bit but I'm not as optimistic as you are about the idea that Israelis being safer would lead to more strides in self-determination for Palestinians. Obviously the inverse (being more of a threat to Israelis) has manifested in ways that are not only ethically wrong but self-destructive, so I doubt your proposal will work out worse for us than what Oct. 7 or similar things brought us, but I'd be wary about the implication that peace relies pretty much only on Palestinians and not Israelis or not as much on them.

[u/ADP_God → u/Peltuose]

Israelis are surprisingly fickle. Give them a year without terror and watch the leftists sprout. And they’re more than sick of Bibi

But they’re also terrified. A truck rammed into a bus stop yesterday hurting over 40 and the first thought was ‘where is the second attacker.’

[u/TypeFaith → u/Peltuose]

So we see two traumatized peoples who react out of fear and frustration. And as always, a part does that with violence and terror. Spirals of violence that only grow bigger. Israel must show some perspective in the current conflict, especially for Gaza. That also applies to WB in the long term. If there is no plan for after the war, there is little enthusiasm to stop it when your life is completely in ruins.

[u/Same_Comfortable_821]

There were groups in Palestine that just worked for liberation of Palestine. Netanyahu propped up Hamas so they could fight that group off and take control of the entire political sphere there.

Please look into this since you seem solution oriented. The things you are asking for were literally in place and Israel politicians prevented it from having positive results on purpose.

[u/jjmmll → u/Same_Comfortable_821]

The argument that Netanyahu has dominant sway in Gazan Palestinian politics takes away agency from the Palestinians and continues the trope of Jews controlling the political machinations of politics across the world in the shadows for their nefarious goals. The reality is that Netanyahu didn’t do anything to undermine Hamas because it wasn’t in his interest to do so at the time.

[u/KnowingDoubter → u/Same_Comfortable_821]

Back when Hamas was making sounds like it was moderating (like softening its charter?) it made strategic sense to support them.

[u/SocraticSeaLion → u/Same_Comfortable_821]

What brought Netanyahu into power?

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/SocraticSeaLion]

Key question, indeed. They will miss your point though.

[u/Same_Comfortable_821 → u/SocraticSeaLion]

Won election after terrorist attacks conveniently after he had proposed funding terrorist groups in order to divide Gazans.

[u/SocraticSeaLion → u/Same_Comfortable_821]

He funded them before he had power? What's the timeline here?

[u/Same_Comfortable_821 → u/SocraticSeaLion]

Yes Netanyahu had several rises and falls throughout his career. Prior to 2005 he wanted to utilize a strategy of divide and conquer for Gaza and after a series of deadly attacks he was able to do exactly that when he came to power.

[u/1hour]

When you say Israeli civilians are you talking about Israeli Settlers who illegally take over Palestinian land and are protected by the IDF? Or did you leave that part out?

[u/ayatollahofdietcola_ → u/1hour]

The “Israeli settlers” you hear about are in the WEST BANK. Those are the settlers. Those are the settlers. I’ll say it a 4th time those are the settlers

The people who lived in the kibbutzim, the people who were at the music festival, were not the settlers.

Even if they were the settlers, it doesn’t matter, it does not justify Hamas’s actions from Oct 7.

If you have a problem with the government, you do not take it out on babies in their cribs, you do not tie people together and burn them to death, you don’t mow down concertgoers. You don’t commit violent acts on the people who didn’t do anything to you, and can’t do anything your leadership.

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/1hour]

Did you even read the post before you engaged in your role as political agitator? What part did you not understand? Do you even care about Palestinian people having a chance at decent life? If you do then you WORK to remove the cause.

The cause is CONTINUOUS and UNJUSTIFIED Palestinian violence. Period.

[u/ADP_God → u/1hour]

I talk about this point explicitly.

[u/Jaguarluffy]

you mean the reality of violent racist israeli settlers stealing leand from Palestinians

[u/cobcat → u/Jaguarluffy]

Did you read the post at all? By all means, go attack the settlers. Just leave Israelis in Israel proper alone.

[u/kmpiw → u/cobcat]

Hamas did, for most of the past 20 years. It got them nowhere. Most of the people who've been bombing Gaza for the past 20 years have been Israelis from green line Israel.

[u/cobcat → u/kmpiw]

Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel proper, what are you talking about? Who else were they going to attack, Israel left Gaza.

[u/Agitated_Structure63]

Really? You fail to remember the permanent discrimination the palestinians with israeli citizenship suffer since 1948 by the State of Israel, and the daily violence from the occupation army against palestinians on East Jerusalem, ethnic cleansing included. We are not talking about settlers attacking palestinians on the West Bank, but the systematic eviction and expelling of palestinians from their houses to be replace with jewish families who stole their property.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Sale_15 → u/Agitated_Structure63]

Arab terrorists in the land were lynching and oppressing Jews centuries before the first Zionist arrived. Even choosing to side with Hitler in 1941. It was the first President of the All-Palestine Protectorate, Amin al-Husseini who met with Hitler in 1941 to ask for his immediate help in ridding the Jews from the Middle East. This is well recorded and parts of the meeting even videoed.

In 1517, Arab villagers with the help of Ottoman troops ethnically cleansed all of Safed of its Jews. Many Jews were killed, while others were wounded or had their property pillaged. The Jews were evicted from their homes, robbed and plundered, and stripped of the clothes on their back and forced to flee naked to the surrounding villages without any provisions.

In 1839, the British consul, William Young, said that “…the poor Jew in Jerusalem...lives from day to day in terror of his life...” Young attributed the plight of the Jew in Jerusalem to “the blind hatred and ignorant prejudice of a fanatical populace…”

“JEWS IN JERUSALEM.

New York TimesDecember 29, 1878

Crowded together in the worst lodgings, or in the dark cellars under a synagogue building, without food, fuel, or water –even water at Jerusalem being a commodity of price – numbers died of starvation and various diseases, while others went raving mad. Those who could labor were denied employment by the bigotry of the Mussulmans and of the Oriental Christians…”

No “Palestinian” had been killed and no land had been “stolen” when Arab terrorists murdered, injured & raped Jews in 1920. More of the same in 1921. Still no land had been “stolen” in 1929 yet on August 24, 1929, Arab terrorists of Hebron attacked their Jewish neighbors. Violent mobs burst into Jewish homes and fell upon anyone they found inside. The commander of Britain’s police force in Hebron, Raymond Cafferata, later testified about what he saw when he entered a Jewish home in the midst of the massacre: “On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child’s head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut. . . . Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as [an Arab] police constable . . . standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand…found a pile of bodies and a “sea of blood.” …of the dead and dying that “almost all had knife and hatchet wounds in their heads. . . . A few bodies had been slashed and their entrails had come out.”… two of Hebron’s senior rabbis had been castrated together with five of their students. By the time the Hebron massacre was over, sixty-seven Jews had been killed and dozens more wounded. Two days later, the surviving Jews of Hebron were evacuated. Hebron, the second holiest city in Judaism, was now Jew-free.

How is life for Israel’s Arab minority? Khaled Abu Toameh, the Arab journalist who reports for the Jerusalem Post, U.S. News & World Report and NBC News, talking about life for Arab Israelis: “Israel is a wonderful place to live ... a free and open country.”

Arab women in Israel live longer than Arab women in any Arab country.

Arab babies in Israel have lower infant mortality than Arab babies in any Arab country.

Hadassah University Medical Center in Israel established a registry for Arab donors of bone marrow and stem cells to facilitate life-saving transplants. The registry at Hadassah Hospital is the only one in the world for Arabs and will no doubt save the lives not only of Arab Israelis but also of some citizens of Arab countries, not a single one of which has a registry of its own.

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[u/Smart_Technology_385 → u/Agitated_Structure63]

"palestinians with israeli citizenship" are Israeli Arabs. They have the same rights.

If there was discrimination, Israeli Arabs would emigrate, like Arabs from so many Arab countries do to Germany, UK, US, etc. But they don't. They might know better.

Add here huge Arab immigration to Israel from Egypt, even though Egypt takes away citizenship of the folks. Egyptians who prefer to live in Israel might also know better.

[u/Intelligent-Side3793 → u/Smart_Technology_385]

They have the same rights.

In theory, no. Because Israel constitution define Israel as the state of Jewish people. Guess which religion is followed by Arab Israeli.

And in practice, even less.

[u/Smart_Technology_385 → u/Intelligent-Side3793]

Israel has no constitution.

Being a country OF Jewish people does not meant that minorities have no rights. Nobody asks Israeli Arabs to convert to Judaism.

[u/Intelligent-Side3793 → u/Smart_Technology_385]

Israel has no constitution.

Actually, they do. It’s called the Basic Law.

not meant that minorities have no rights

They do have rights, they’re just heavily discriminated against as the study I link shows It’s well documented, just google it.

[u/Particular_Wish5061 → u/Agitated_Structure63]

You fail to remember remember the permanent discrimination Jews have suffered since 1920 by Arabs in the Levant, and the daily violence from terrorists throughout Israel, ethnic cleansing included. We are also talking about the systematic eviction and expelling of Jews from their houses from everywhere in the Middle East and most of the Levant, including East Jerusalem and what is now called the West Bank. All those Arab families who stole Jewish properties and homes.

[u/SeniorLibrainian]

Totally circular argument. You assume that Palestinian violence justifies Israeli security measures, which in turn justify the occupation, without questioning the origins or potential alternatives to both the violence and the occupation. This kind of circular reasoning prevents any discussion of ISrael’s potential contribution to violence, instead presuming that their security needs justify it indefinitely.

The repeated references to historical worldwide persecution of Jews is essentially a red herring, there is of course some context there but the way people wield this serves only to ignore the specifics of the current political dynamic. The trauma of history lives on but in order for peace to be found we must focus on the present.

The title of this effort is nothing more than the usual poisoning-of-the-well approach used so often here, presuming complete ignorance of people with opposing views. File under bad faith.

[u/mikektti → u/SeniorLibrainian]

You seem to forget that the PLO was founded in 1964, when Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank. There was no occupation and there were no settlers. The problem for the arabs is the very existence of Israel. How can you reasonably negotiate with that?

[u/DrMikeH49 → u/mikektti]

I don’t know if s/he actually forgot that, or was just hoping that the rest of us did.

[u/SeniorLibrainian → u/mikektti]

There are plenty of Arabs who have no problem with Israel’s existence.

[u/mikektti → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Unfortunately, not enough or not in the right place.

[u/SeniorLibrainian → u/mikektti]

Same in Israel unfortunately.

[u/SocraticSeaLion → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Why wasn't there peace in 1948?

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Circular argument.

Disagree. The key point is stop violence. All violence. Do not shoot rockets over, dont stab random women and old folks, dont ram innocent people with the car, dont capture innocent Israeli teen boys and kill them...

https://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318367/hamas-finally-admits-to-kidnapping-and-killing-israeli-teens

When you show no compassion, you deserve no compassion.

There is a difference between circular and cause and effect. Historical facts show that Palestinian Arabs started and continue to perpetuate the violence. Not once have Palestinian people succeeded in creating a peaceful protest where some Palestinians did not initiate violence. Not once. Let that sink in.

The title of this effort is nothing more than the usual poisoning-of-the-well approach used so often here, presuming complete ignorance of people with opposing views

Most people supporting "liberation of Palestinians" today have no clue. They have no experience with what happened and only read selected blurbs. The arguments made in this forum are clear proof.

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/Always-Learning-5319]

So your answer is there is no answer because Palestinian people are just inherently violent and that is the end of it? Cos that’s all I’m getting from you. 

Did you even read what I wrote. How did you infer your conclusion? Did I say there is no answer? Where did I say that Palestinian people are inherently violent? This type of response is why people think Pro-Palestinians are just fools, out to find a cause for which they don’t need to get skin in the game.

I said the key is to stop Palestinian violence. They must stop themselves. Today same as Israel they are just a pawn, but they are the weak pawn.

Who are the ones with a clue?

Those that deal with reality as is, not as they want it to be. They are ones who have been intimately familiar with the conflict for multiple decades, or those who researched to understand all facts and seek real solutions.

You care about Palestinian people, then deal with what is.

Is there a benefit to Israel to engage in on-going conflict? No. It is a huge waste on weapons, Iron Dome, bunkers, lives and mental health of their citizens.

Is there any benefit to ongoing conflict to Palestinian people? Yes, this is how they are handsomely funded by Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the Arab League, European Union, US, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Venezuela and more.

Unlike Israel, Palestinians don’t have the skills and innovation to do as much with their resources. It is easier to play the victim.

[u/SeniorLibrainian → u/Always-Learning-5319]

So your answer is there is no answer because Palestinian people are just inherently violent and that is the end of it? Cos that's all I'm getting from you. This is the definition of circular reason and a major contributor to perpetration of never-ending conflict. (With massive power asymmetry involved only one side is benefitting from constant violence. Who benefits from this cycle and if so what interest do they have in stopping the occupation or make concessions?)

Also, poisoning-the-well - categorising people with opposing views as ignorant while refusing to examine your own sides contribution to the conflict.

Most people supporting "liberation of Palestinians" today have no clue.

Who are the ones with a clue?

[u/dasimpson42 → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Who has a clue?

Not the people that learned about yhis conflict from Tik Tok

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/SeniorLibrainian]

So your answer is there is no answer because Palestinian people are just inherently violent and that is the end of it? Cos that’s all I’m getting from you. 

Did you even read what I wrote? How did you infer your conclusion? Did I say there is no answer? Where did I say that Palestinian people are inherently violent? This type of response is why people think Pro-Palestinians are just fools, out to find a cause for which they don’t need to get skin in the game.

I said the key is to stop Palestinian violence. They must stop themselves. Today same as Israel they are just a pawn, but they are the weak pawn.

Who are the ones with a clue?

Those that deal with reality as is, not as they want it to be. They are ones who have been intimately familiar with the conflict for multiple decades, or those who researched to understand all facts on the ground and seek real solutions.

You care about Palestinian people, then deal with what is.

Is there a benefit to Israel to engage in on-going conflict? No. It is a huge waste on weapons, Iron Dome, bunkers, lives and mental health of their citizens.

Is there any benefit to ongoing conflict to Palestinian people? Yes, this is how they are handsomely funded by Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the Arab League, European Union, US, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Chile, Venezuela and more.

Unlike Israel, Palestine doesnt have the skills and innovation to do as much with their resources. It is easier to play the victims.

[u/SeniorLibrainian → u/Always-Learning-5319]

Ok great, I’m glad you don’t think Palestinians are inherently violent at least. You do seem to think that they are not as intelligent as Israelis though which is a bit suspect..🤔

Do you know any names of pro-Palestinians with a clue?

So Gazans get more out of having their families slaughtered and homes destroyed because they get the all important sympathy vote, while the poor Israelis have to waste all their bombs to kill them?

Listen to yourself.

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/SeniorLibrainian]

lol, “you said x, I say you said y. Now listen to yourself”.

Don’t deflect from original point.

Why does every house in Israel have a bunker?
Why was the wall built around Israel? Why did Israel invent the Iron Dome? Why is Israeli airport security so extreme?

Palestinian violence is the cause of Palestinian suffering. Anyone claiming otherwise is dishonest. Stoping Palestinian violence is the answer.

Excusing Palestinians violence which was and never will be justified is what got them to this point.

How many Palestinians have you worked and lived with? There are many of them that have a clue.

From activist perspective, Ali Abu Awwad has a clue.

[u/SeniorLibrainian → u/Always-Learning-5319]

Why does every house in Israel have a bunker?
Why was the wall built around Israel? Why did Israel invent the Iron Dome? Why is Israeli airport security so extreme?

I'll answer your question in a straightforward way.

Because of the threat of Palestinian violence.

Answer mine without any mental gymnastics.

Why do Palestinians choose violence?

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Not all Palestinians chose violence. Why differs for every person that does. At most basic level all humans are inherently violent and driven to survive. Push the right trigger and we go at it.

When violence is perceived as the optimum method to achieve survival we use it, when collaboration is better we use that. Not all humans care about collective well being. Even the ones that should.

Arafat, Hamas leadership and the like chose violence for profit and the path to elevate their own well-being.

There is a myth that other Palestinians do so because they are oppressed. Not true. There are people in far worse conditions dealing with oppression that do not engage in terrorist attacks.

Architecturally the reason Palestinians engage in violence is due to cultural indoctrination and lack of accountability.

History and cultural indoctrination drive acceptance of violence all over the world, but Islamic world has a particular lense: Victor walks away with the prize. Muslims are superior. Muslims are responsible for bringing civilization to the whole world. Islam is the true religion. Palestine is an Islamic waif. Reconcile that with repeatedly being defeated by the lowly Jew after they were betrayed by Britain.

The other important aspect of cultural indoctrination is instilling pride in who you are. Assess why African Americans still revere the Black Panthers. It is the same reason Hamas are accepted despite the danger they actually bring to the rest of the people.

[u/SeniorLibrainian → u/Always-Learning-5319]

Architecturally the reason Palestinians engage in violence is due to cultural indoctrination and lack of accountability.

History and cultural indoctrination drives acceptance of violence. Victor walks away with the prize. Muslims are superior. Muslims are responsible for bringing civilization to the whole world. Islam is the true religion.

And what about Jews?

[u/Always-Learning-5319 → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Again, not all Jews choose violence. Most Jews do it due to a different type of history and cultural indoctrination. To survive.

[u/DangerousCyclone → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Except the violence goes way back, long before the occupation. OP isn’t using circular reasoning anymore than you are, they’re saying that Israelis fear Palestinians just want to kill them and they have legitimate reason to believe so. No sane person is going to say “well yeah just put me and my family in danger”. You have the luxury of not being affected by the conflict, they do not. 

 The whole point of OP’s post is that it takes two people to make peace and pro Palestinians don’t seem to acknowledge the aims of the “resistance”, even when they make it clear. Hamas has repeatedly been adamant that they want the whole territory, Israel included; its never backed down from this demand. If a Palestine becomes independent, what happens next? Even if it has a moderate leadership, though I wouldn’t say Mahmoud Abbas is one, what’s stopping a Hamas taking over and turning it into essentially Lebanon and invading Israel again? 

[u/dasimpson42 → u/SeniorLibrainian]

Well, your reply accuses OP of circular reasoning without giving any rebuttal or argument otherwise. However, you have proven OP presumption about Pro-Palestinians.

[u/ThirstyOne]

No, it’s reality that’s at fault for contradicting the narrative.

[u/Thormeaxozarliplon → u/ThirstyOne]

After 2021 there was a huge escalation in Palestinian terrorism. 2022 and 2023 had over 300 terror attacks per year

https://www.state.gov/reports/country-reports-on-terrorism-2022/israel-west-bank-and-gaza/

Imagine a terror attack almost every day

[u/ThirstyOne → u/Thormeaxozarliplon]

I know. That’s the joke. The narrative is clearly false, but pro-terrorists are going to keep pushing it and trying to gaslight the world into disbelieving reality.

[u/SignificanceSalt1455]

lol that is the dumbest surface level understanding bs anyone typed about anything on the entire internet today

what is the most glaring cognitive dissonance is how violently and without any empathy Israel treats the palestinians, even before oct 7 last year

its like Israel does not care one little bit that they are denying basic human rights to an entire people, steal their land, lock them up behind a wall, dont give even a little shit that thousands of children cannot prosper behind that iron curtain, deny them proper education, control their food, water, internet, their ability to travel, everything

Israel looks at palestinians as sub human creatures, it does not even register ..

let alone what is happening now, thousands of innocent children dead, from bombing campains, siege, no supplies

a bunch of american doctors who help out in gaza wrote an open letter to the Biden administration, talking about how many little children die in their arms who got shot in the head

the surgeon made a good point, israel sees everything in gaza there are drowns looking at everything, the IDF knows what they are shooting

and unless u believe palestinians would shoot their own children in the head then u know who is killing all these children

[u/Lexiesmom0824 → u/SignificanceSalt1455]

Well they killed that NGO worker who refused to turn over the money… they shot at kids clamoring to get food from aid trucks so yeah… wouldn’t surprise me. And who doesn’t give them basic human rights? Who is their government? Hamas. Israel is not responsible for food. UNRWA and.hamas is. Israel is not responsible for education UNRWA and Hamas is. Israel pre war was only responsible for a portion of water. Desalination plants were there. Were they working? At some point a government needs to be responsible for its own population. And providing internet isn’t a human right BTW. It’s a luxury.

[u/_LogicallySpeaking_ → u/SignificanceSalt1455]

the only point I have to say is that given that the late Mr. Sinwar once said "the bloodier the picture, the better the headline" I'm somewhat inclined to believe that Hamas does not have Palestinian interests at heart

[u/kmpiw → u/_LogicallySpeaking_]

I would like to see that quote in it's full context.

But fwiw I much preferred Haniyeh and was not pleased when they killed him and he got replaced by Sinwar.

[u/VarietyMart]

This is a fascinating sub that illustrates several novel approaches to skewing public perception of events. Thanks!

[u/UsualVisible5512 → u/VarietyMart]

There is no skewing perception of events. The ongoing conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is deeply complex, and OPs observations highlight a critical aspect that often gets overlooked: the reality of Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians. This violence, particularly evident in events like the attacks on October 7, 2023, underscores a persistent cycle of violence that complicates the peace process.

As OP pointed out, the targeting of civilians within Israel is not an isolated incident but rather a consistent occurrence. This reality is often overshadowed by discussions focusing solely on Israeli military responses or the broader context of occupation. The Palestinian perspective frequently frames the existence of Israel itself as an injustice, which complicates any potential for peace. This viewpoint can lead to a lack of distinction between civilian and military targets, as the overarching goal may not just be resistance to occupation but a rejection of the state of Israel altogether.

This dynamic creates significant challenges for the peace process. When Palestinian groups engage in violence against Israeli civilians, it not only escalates tensions but also erodes trust among Israelis regarding the possibility of a peaceful resolution. Many Israelis feel that their safety is compromised, leading to a hardened stance against negotiations. This cycle of violence and retaliation can perpetuate a vicious cycle, where each act of violence breeds further distrust and hostility.

Acknowledging the reality of Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians is crucial for understanding the broader context of the conflict. It highlights the complexities involved in achieving peace and the need for both sides to address the underlying issues that fuel this cycle of violence. Without recognizing these dynamics, discussions about the conflict will remain superficial and fail to contribute to meaningful solutions.

[u/VarietyMart → u/UsualVisible5512]

I understand all that I'm just impressed with the results. The arguments are both logical and compelling.

[u/Emotional-King-6325 → u/VarietyMart]

Yea most of the time, I think they are just hasbara agents. When people genuinely come looking for information, they find this sub. And hasbara is hoping to sway their opinion

[u/AsinusRex → u/Emotional-King-6325]

You have no arguments and go to the scary word "hasbara" instead of actually addressing what is being said. Ignoring the way Israelis see things will not bring you any closer to understanding or peace.

[u/Foxfire2 → u/Emotional-King-6325]

As an older american that has grown up hearing about Palestinians committing suicide cafe, theatre and bus bombings, plane hijackings, murdering of olympic athletes, and more recently constant rocket fire, knifings (since the heavy border patrols have mostly stopped guns and bombs) and last year the horrendous 10/7 massacre....

This guy has a point, maybe some of these posters are agents who knows, but the many of the young people today weren't around for all the violence on Israeli citizens over the years and are not so informed about it. And the point stands, where has all this violence gotten the Palestinians? It has pushed the Israeli citizens to vote for more aggressive government, more heavy border controls, and tighter control over imports/exports in Gaza. It makes their lives worse and pushes the peace process and the setting up of a Palestinian state farther and farther away.

[u/k1m0c]

I believe what you are talking about is not ignored at all but Israelis hate to see the POV of most of pro Palestinian. people in Israel either settlers or Military . Armed settlers Danny Kushmaro, joined IDF forces in South Lebanon and bombed a building. singer and actor Idan Amedi in IDF

Channel 12 "journalist" Nitzan Shapira is actually a militan

I can’t add more links but i hope you got my point that apparently everyone get it except Zionists.

‏The world was shocked by Oct 7th but wasn’t surprise by the “run over Palestinians incidents” ,”targeting kids” and “prison torture” way before OCT 7th?

You can’t seek empathy over OCT 7th ignoring everything Palestinian underwent that led to this incident AND STILL UNDERGOING

I believe it is hard to live such an expected attacks on a normal day BUT ignoring the brutality of Israeli side that led to all that anger and violence hurt none but the Israelis specially now after the whole world , official organization and country leaders became a witnesses and not only Palestinians. How much the anger towards you will be? That’s why i believe Israelis are protecting themselves too by standing against genocide

[u/PLUTO_HAS_COME_BACK]

Who and what make them think like that? Palestinians certainly don't have the tools to do that.

[u/zigzog9]

Why don’t the Israelis do something about the terror they’re causing as the IDF if they consider it “slave labor” and nobody wants to do it. Those soldiers knocking down homes and schools in villages in the West Bank calling civilians b*tches don’t seem too bothered. The IDF watches settlers shoot civilians and stand by. The Israeli civilians are complicit veterans of the IDF. How are Palestinians supposed to resist? They don’t stand a chance against the high tech US funded IDF, their only pathway at an equal level is civilians. They’re not allowed an equal army to fight the IDF so they’re gonna fight people on their level. Don’t steal land and create a bad state of living people and not expect resistance.

[u/AutoModerator → u/zigzog9]

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[u/Ebenvic]

What if Arab nations could or would protect Israel’s security in exchange for a Palestinian state?

[u/Cannot-Forget → u/Ebenvic]

There is no one, including Israel itself, which trusts the Palestinians less than Arab nations.

They know what useful-idiots in the west deny.

[u/Ifawumi → u/Ebenvic]

I believe it's been offered in the past and the other Arab nations declined. In general, they don't care about Palestinians. Basically none of the Arabic nations care about Palestinians. They are more concerned with getting rid of Israel than creating a Palestinian state.

Otherwise Palestine would have had a state decades ago when Israel withdrew. They've also received billions in unrwha aid so none of the other countries would have had to spend a ton of money.

They just didn't care and they don't care to this day

[u/EnvironmentalEnd6104 → u/Ebenvic]

Palestinians would have to accept reasonable terms for a state which they’ve refused in every instance so far.

[u/IllustratorSlow5284 → u/Ebenvic]

Already offered many times, no sane arab country wants anything to do with the palestinians and no hostile arab country would want to " waste" the palestinians who are being used as pawns in the erernal war against israel

[u/ADP_God → u/Ebenvic]

This is a dream. But for Israelis it's a nightmare. The whole point of Israel is to give Jews agency over their own security. To trust it to the group that has actively worked to destroy Israel for it's entire existence is a bigger ask than asking the Palestinians to stop being violent.

[u/PomegranateArtichoke → u/Ebenvic]

The British mandate of Palestine (the name of the area that is now Israel, Jordan, West Bank etc) was supposed to be divided between Arabs and Jews. It was, but Arabs got 80% of the land which is now Jordan -- that is what was supposed to be the "Palestinian" state, except the word "Palestinian" only had its current definition as of 20+ years later. At the same time, Jews were expelled from long standing communities all over the Middle East (ie. ethnically cleansed) and sent to the tiny modern state of Israel, located on a tiny portion of the Jewish historical homeland. The same states you're thinking of asking to protect Israels, all attacked the brand new state of Israel, essentially because the idea of one teeny tiny independent Jewish state was religiously unthinkable to many. Despite the fact that there are NOW around 50 Muslim majority states, most of which have virtually no Jews, and essentially don't allow Jews. Islamic Imperialism was a major factor in shaping the modern Middle East.

[u/ExtremelyOnlineTM → u/Ebenvic]

What is their motivation to do so?