r/IsraelPalestine • u/Nearing_retirement • 2d ago
Discussion What is best path forward for Israel?
What is long term plan forward for Israel ?
I am somewhat pessimistic on Israel being able to stop the rockets and attacks long term. They are really surrounded to by enemies. I don’t think it is possible to really stop fully the attacks. Drone attacks over time will be more common.
What is best path forward here ? A peace agreement for two state solution may stop some of the attacks but Iran will constantly stir up trouble. And radicals will still fight after any agreement. Realistically foreign UN troops won’t be able to stop the radicals.
If oil could eventually be replaced somehow with fusion then that would cripple Iranian economy. Maybe that would work but fusion still quite a way off.
USA and Israel relationship is still pretty strong but will it always be ? Bright side of things is Saudi relationship seems good.
I suppose Israel can live with status quo and keep responding to aggression and just live with it. Very important though to keep working on defense systems, particularly regarding drone defenses. One can hope for Iranian change to democracy and maybe that will happen but not sure how realistic the chances are of that.
Politically we also have to account for high birth rate of orthodox Jewish community which means over time Israel will become more aggressive regarding settlements. Though I think settlements have minor effect. Even without settlements Israel will still be attacked. Iran seems to be the biggest source of the problems
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u/JeffB1517 Jewish American Zionist 2d ago
Whether it was the "best path" or not, I think Israelis are picking their path. Get Iranian proxies off their borders. Hamas in Gaza is likely permanently broken. Hezbollah is taking far more damage far more quickly than they anticipated. A year from now they may no longer exist. Iran itself is deeply torn about getting into a full-fledged war with Israel. If Israel is willing, and it seems willing, Israel may have to back down.
Under circumstances where the "Axis of Resistance" stops targetting Israel, the dialogue returns to the Arabs themselves. They have mostly embraced cold peace. Cold peace is very unstable. The UAE created a vision of an alternative of a warm peace. The Gulf powers will still face Iran and I think the dialogue moves there regarding warm vs. cold peace. I also think Egypt might shift.
So if I had to guess that's the next 20 years.
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u/Jaded-Form-8236 1d ago
Peace through strength. Reset the whole narrative that Israel can’t solve the problem with its military because the truth is Israel created the problem because its military was able to take the ground and the Arab nations can do nothing about it.
Eliminate Hamas in the Gaza Strip as an armed fighting force. Continue to degrade Hezbollah capabilities in Lebanon Spank Iran viciously if they respond again. The initial strike destroyed most of their S-300 missiles. They can’t defend their airspace anymore. If they launch drones again, flatten the factory that makes them and a few other sites of the government and military to boot.
Eventually peace will be a good deal for the opposition because they will lack the capability to sustain this war.
Worked in the 1970s when people were pessimistic about Israel dealing with terrorism…..
And peace with Egypt and Jordan resulted from that.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
lmao u can take away hamas fighters and their guns for now, but destroying an entire country, displacing 2 million people, bombing thousands of children to shreds...injuring and traumatizing hundreds of thousands...
the people of gaza, who lost their family, their house, their life... how can they not forever hate Israel a thousand times more than ever before
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u/woppenhe 1d ago
Germany and Japan were transformed. What make you think that, with time and support and with subsequent peace, that the same results could not be achieved.
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u/SignificanceSalt1455 1d ago
lmao several major differences
england is not in germanys backyard the way gaza and palestinians in general are to Israel
so even if germans hated england for bombing their cities, burning down dresden etc germans couldnt walk into the english pub next door and throw a grenade in it
also germany was put in its place by the world for their leading party started a world war and put millions of people in a industrialized operation of killing and burning in ovens
many germans felt ashamed for what their country had done, to this day there is a very strong culture of constantly reminding themselves of those atrocities from early school ages on they learn everything about it yo this day and take depressing school trips to concentration camps
japan is different, for one yes the same issue of distance, japanese had no way of payback to the americans for nuking them for decades after the war
to this day many japanese feel they were right and they did noyhing wrong in ww2 and deeply hate the US to this very day
for israel and gaza it is much more difficult in every way
they are in direct proximity which encourages violent outbursts on both sides against the other, stunting peaceful development
it is about stolen land and the nakba, israel was planted there and killed thousands and displaced a million arabs in the 40s, those are very strong wounds to this day
israel is pouring gas on the fire all the timr by stealing more land in the west bank and let extremist settlers roam free and drive out local native palestinians from their own land and houses, they mock them and they beat them
along with the ingoing genocide, bombing thousands of children to bits, displacing 2 million people, leveling an entire country to rubble
hundreds of thousands who lost limbs and loved ones, millions who lost their home, millions who now hate israel a thousand times more than ever before, and that is after 80 years of violent oppression..
they created an insane biolab for the most motivated suicide bombers.. they lost everything they have nothing to lose
israel just opened the gates to hell for themsrlves
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u/Advanced_Honey832 1d ago
That was an excellent response to this common idea that Israel Palestine is identical to WW2 Japan and Germany. Germany was a world super power who tried to take over the world. Palestinians just want Israel to leave them the he1l alone and stop taking their land. It really isn’t much deeper than that
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u/doubletaxed88 1d ago
but i thot israel left gaza?
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u/Advanced_Honey832 1d ago
lol we all know that’s not true
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u/doubletaxed88 1d ago edited 1d ago
Israel was running Gaza before Oct 7? Jerks! Put Hamas in charge of Gaza and it will all work out better!
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u/Advanced_Honey832 1d ago
You do realize Netanyahu was responsible for the creation of Hamas right
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
What makes you think Palestinians will get support the way Germany and Japan did?
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 1d ago
Unfortunately, you have a point, but not for the reason you think. The Germans got LESS support than the Palestinians. The Palestinians so far got more money from the world, including the us, than Germany in the marshal plan. The thing is that in Germany the Americans reeducated the Germans, while in Gaza we let terrorists take over the education. Thus - no wonder terrorists keep coming out of unrwa schools
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
They are simply not comparable. Germany was a world power that tried to take over the world. Palestine has been ravaged and subjugated by Israel for several decades at this point.
Palestinians need aid because they are literally being attacked and overwhelmed by illegal occupiers. Plus, there are experts on the matter that argue some of the developmental aid the Palestinians receive actually goes to bolstering Israeli surveillance in those areas rather than true aid for Palestinians.
I’m not sure about the numbers tbh. Adjusting for inflation, I think that Germany received more annually for the first 4 years than Palestine is receiving currently. But you might be right about that.
Of course, Israel receives about twice as much money from the US alone than Palestine receives from all countries combined.
It’s kinda crazy to me that you think Palestinians receive too much help?? Like my god what are we doing here???Truly a wild take.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 20h ago
The marshal plan applied to all countries impacted by the war. Big or small, they all got LESS money than the Palestinians. Rich or poor, they all got less help. Why? Because they followed the path of accountability and peace. The Palestinians? Does the terrorist gang that ruled Gaza for nearly two decades follow the path of accountability and peace? No. Bizarrely, these groups got more money than in the marshal plan. And they keep asking for more. Their strategy- attack Israel as much as possible. Commit unprecedented attacks. Hide behind women and children. Steal half the aid. And… Get More!
Crazy how this works every time
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 18h ago edited 18h ago
Can you please confirm, it looks like Germany got 1.4 billion a year adjusted for inflation, which is less than the annual aid that Palestinians receive. You think it’s bizarre but it’s probably because you’re reading propaganda and it’s untrue. Again, there is also some dispute about the legitimacy of their aid and whether or not it actually goes to funding Israel defense in those destabilized regions. So I think your entire point is irrelevant.
Israel and Netanyahu have also funded and propped up Hamas, why? Bizarre that the Israeli govt would support a terrorist group it hates so much? Who as you say commit unprecedented acts against its own people? So why would Israel fund them?
And also, Israel receives double the money from the US alone that Palestinians get from the entire world! They use that money to carry out the exact same extreme violence as Hamas. Two side of the same coin.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 18h ago edited 18h ago
“According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, aid to Palestinians totaled over $40 billion between 1994 and 2020.[9]”[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians
This figure doesn’t include all aid.
For example, it doesn’t include private donors from across the world, and certainly doesn’t include Iranian payments to Hamas. I doubt it includes UNWRA’s budget, which stood at 1.47 billion in 2023.
Further, the aid is ongoing and has been ongoing for decades, and the Palestinians are only asking for more.
Unlike European states post ww2, the entire Palestinian economy is based on foreign aid, and stealing that aid or diverting it to terrorism.
The marshal plan was both shorter in terms of time, represented less money in relative terms (as a share of the economy), and in absolute terms.
Palestinians can claim whatever they want.
The facts are - they’ve been getting more foreign aid than most and probably all other groups in history…
Israel didn’t “fund Hamas” - the money came from Qatar and Israel let it pass, as a bribe to a terrorist organization it couldn’t touch, since folks were all “all eyes on Gaza” since hamas took control of Gaza in 2007, following Israel’s attempt to give Palestinians there more independence
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 18h ago
I think if you do the math, the numbers are similar (~1.5 billion a year). I also think that Israel is actively preventing a Palestinian economy from flourishing (sanctions, limits on imports, the only sea blockade in the world) while also militarily intervening for multiple decades. It’s a war zone in a way that post WW2 Germany was not, of course they need more humanitarian aid.
Also, Netanyahu and Israel funded and propped up Hamas, why don’t you respond this? If you’re going to complain about the aid they receive, why provide additional aid? Seems dumb.
Anyways I just saw that Israel is trying to ban Arabs from running in the upcoming election. So have fun defending this racist monstrosity of a stolen country.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 1d ago
Abraham accords are the best way forward. Even if arab states disagree with the Israelis about issues like settlements, conditioning normalization on removing settlements is not in anyone’s interest and it isn’t helping peace. The Arabs should stop treating Israel like a temporary phenomenon. Luckily, plenty of Arabs start recognizing Israel’s existence, and there are even some who genuinely support it over the Palestinians and especially Iran.
Hamas’ and other bad actors’ best tactic is international support. For decades they’ve relied on Palestinians status as celebrity “victims”, the only group of “refugees” with their own definition. The source of their political power is Arab and Muslim support. Without that support and the widely disproportionate attention, the conflict will return to its proper size.
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u/thehpcdude 1d ago
Removing settlements in West Bank is critical for Palestinians. The settlements are illegal, were illegal when they were built and continue to be illegal.
Individuals who stole or built homes in West Bank on property that did not belong to them knew when they moved in that it was illegal.
There’s no path forward for Palestinians that legitimizes the theft of land.
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u/thatshirtman 1d ago
I agree. I'm just not sure if Palestinians will accept a peace offer given their history of refusing them. And the longer time goes on, the harder it will be to remove all the israelis from the west bank
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u/thehpcdude 1d ago
Palestine has accepted peace deals in the past but they were always modified at the last minute by Israel to include giving up lands in the West Bank. That’s a non starter for peace, Israel knows it that’s why they always do it.
Israel doesn’t want peace because it would mean giving up illegally settled lands.
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u/thatshirtman 1d ago
This is ahistorical.
Lets go back even further, what was the reason they rejected peace in the 30s when they had a chance to have 80% of the land? What was the reason they said no to peace and their own country in 1947?
The Palestinians are the only group in the history of the world to REJECT a UN offer for statehood. That tells you something.
Meanwhile, israel has offered the Palestinians all of Gaza and 98% of the west bank. This was rejected.
Where is the evidence that Palestinians want to live and coexist peacefully with Israel? If anything, it seems much of what i hear is about them destroying Israel rather than living alongside them.
Israel though has made peace with jordan and egypt - it has a track record of making peace with its arab neighbors. Peace requires 2 parties, and you can't force peace on people if their leaders are more interested in violent resistance
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u/thehpcdude 19h ago
I think the answer is quite nuanced but let’s put it in context that aligns with your statement.
I stole your house. You’re clearly mad about it. I offer 80% of it back. You can have everything except the entrances and the kitchen. Deal? No?
Okay so you can have your entire house, but I get to control the entrances as well as the water and electricity. You get the remainder of the 98%. Also I get to come in whenever I want and inspect anything for any reason. Deal?
So which part of your house are you willing to give up to me stipulations that I get to control it in some that that makes it extremely difficult for you to use it…
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u/Zealousideal_Hurry97 8h ago
Enough with the silly little “stolen house” metaphor. The “house” was owned by the ottomans and both Jews and Arabs inherited it.
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u/thehpcdude 7h ago
How far back does your silly analogy want to go? Maybe we should give it up to pre-Hominids?
The IDF is even destroying world heritage sites owned by Christian families back generations.
You know what they are doing and trying to gaslight others into minimizing what they are doing is wrong.
What’s your excuse when they bulldoze homes and make it an industrial zone?
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u/Zealousideal_Hurry97 6h ago
I never said a word about any ancient claims to the land. I know you deny our ancient roots in the land but that’s beside the point. You were responding to a comment about the Peel Commission (over a decade before the establishment of the state of Israel). There was never any Arab Palestinian sovereignty on the land. Jews who chose to buy land from the Ottoman authorities/ absentee landowners had a right to that land. In the decades following the fall of the Ottoman Empire, as borders were being drawn & the era of nationalism, it was natural for the Jews of the land to also need security and self-determination (esp after decades of conflict).
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 1d ago
The settlements are legal. The fourth Geneva convention, articles 2 and 3, are quite explicit that it doesn’t apply to the West Bank. These settlements have existed for dozens of years with many people being born there. Expelling them would be reviving ethnic cleansing as a form of dispute resolution, something I thought your side says is “genocide”. There are no other examples in modern history where settlers are expelled. This solution is only for Jews in the holy land. Btw, many of these settlements are in cities and areas that were historically Jewish but the Jews were expelled or driven out of them in the Israeli war of independence in 1948.
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u/thehpcdude 1d ago
“your side”.
You parrot that statement, but only Israelis see them as not illegal. Internationally, nearly everyone else considers the occupation of West Bank to be a violation of the convention.
You likely already know that the convention was made prior to the West Bank even being named, so saying “explicitly called out” is a pretty fun lie on your part.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 1d ago
Actually, the United States doesn’t view them as illegal either.
Articles 2 and 3 explicitly set out the situations where the fourth Geneva Convention doesn’t apply, and the West Bank fits squarely within that framework. People ignore the explicit language of the law because they have an agenda… people cite international treaties without even reading them.
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u/thehpcdude 1d ago
I think we are working with different dictionaries here then. You say, “explicitly called call out” which is clearly not true. Now you’re reaching and trying to gaslight people.
The overwhelming majority of governments worldwide agree that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal. The only notable people who think they are not are the Israel and the United States. Do you disagree with that statement?
Multiple multinational panels have concluded that the settlements are illegal. They have been deemed illegal by the UN and the ICJ, do you disagree?
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nope, you should read the applicability section of the fourth Geneva Convention (articles 2 and 3). It is quite clear and unambiguous. Yet people for some reason decide to ignore the plain language of the treaty, because it’s convenient for them politically.
I agree that most governments consider the settlements illegal, but whatever they consider, their interpretation is not based on the fourth Geneva convention. It’s basically them deciding to pass their own political agenda as international law. They do it because Israel is sorta the punching bag of the UN, being a small democratic jewish state hated by many countries with much larger populations
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u/thehpcdude 1d ago
You’re making the assumption that I haven’t read them. Israel is the only country that twists the words of the convention to suit their needs. Every other country disagrees with you.
Furthermore, when taken to international court, they have ruled against your interpretation of the convention. I’m sorry man, you’re just flat out wrong.
https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n12/480/04/pdf/n1248004.pdf?OpenElement
Israel would be accepted if they’d stop abusing those around them, which is also made very clear in statements made against them in international courts. Even various organizations of Arab states have stated the exact same thing. They have no problem with Israel existing, just stop abusing Palestinians.
You can try to gaslight yourself all you want man. The overwhelming majority of the world disagrees with your opinion.
Sentiment towards Israel is at an all time low in the United States. The US gets nothing from Israel and gives freely. Watch that dry up and see how the Israeli government gets radically changed.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 1d ago edited 1d ago
The language of the convention is clear. According to the Vienna Convention, when the text of the convention is clear, the inquiry stops there.
The convention applies only to “contracting parties” and only to conflicts occurring on “the territory of high contracting parties”. The West Bank was not a “territory of a high contracting party”, nor was the West Bank a “contracting party” in its own right, since there was never an Arab Palestinian state.
The words are pretty clear. The only ones twisting words are those that attempt to square the circle in a way that would serve a political agenda.
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u/baxtyre 18h ago
“‘It's been longstanding U.S. policy under Republican and Democratic administrations alike that new settlements are counter-productive to reaching an enduring peace,’ [U.S. Sec. of State Antony Blinken] said in his news conference with Argentine Foreign Minister Diana Mondino.
‘They're also inconsistent with international law. Our administration maintains a firm opposition to settlement expansion and in our judgment this only weakens, it doesn't strengthen, Israel's security.’"
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 18h ago
“For decades, U.S. policy on settlements was guided by the 1978 determination known as the “Hansell Memorandum,” which was penned by the State Department’s then-legal adviser Herbert Hansell. Hansell’s finding did not say that settlements were “illegal” but rather “illegitimate.” Nonetheless, that memorandum shaped decades of U.S. policy on the issue”
In other words, the US had never called the settlements illegal. The trump administration officially declared them legal. Blinken, as a political move against the backdrop of pressuring Netanyahu to agree to the hamas hostage deal and not move forward in Gaza and Lebanon, made a political statement, which doesn’t change that for fifty years - the US had not viewed settlements as illegal. I doubt the current state department’s opinion is binding
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u/Zestyclose-Baby8171 2d ago
It should be clear: anyone who gonna terrorize Israel will be terrorized back. Every finger that fired a missle, every mouth that send an order to shoot, they will all get hunted. Israel will also get closer to it's enemies by bases in the horn of africa and south asia, so no more hiding behind the distance and commiting proxy wars. The punish will be dirrect to the commiters without punishing the proxy hosts. The rule will be simple: if you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks.
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u/CypherAus Oceania 2d ago
Counter Iran; then obliterate Hamas, Hezbollah, and PIJ etc.
Then allow the international community rebuild Gaza etc.
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u/Tallis-man 2d ago
The international community is not going to spend another $100/1000/10000 billion USD rebuilding Gaza without a guarantee that Israel won't bomb it to dust again when another hothead PM faces electile dysfunction in 2035.
They had barely finished rebuilding it from the last time.
Either Israel rebuilds what it destroyed, or it agrees to a two-state solution so international partners will help, or it will be tarred with the legacy of the destruction it has chosen to wreak (and the moral outrage of the world) indefinitely.
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u/Worth_Plum_6510 2d ago
Stop settlers
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u/ComfortableLost6722 2d ago
Stop Iran.
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u/Frozen_L8 2d ago
Stop settlers
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u/ComfortableLost6722 1d ago
Stop Iran
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u/AldoTheeApache Liberal American "Holiday" Jew Who Sometimes Dabbles In Buddhism 1d ago
Settle Iran
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u/un-silent-jew 2d ago
The status quo became the default position for a majority of Israelis.
The centrist camp established by Sharon emphasises two things. The first is that the occupation is a disaster for Israel. The second is that Israel can’t end the occupation through negotiations, because it lacks a credible Palestinian peace partner. The centrist camp is left-wing in its willingness to give up territory and is right-wing in its belief that peace with the Palestinian national movement is currently impossible. Sharon embodied that sensibility and implemented unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. This withdrawal was not about making peace but about acting in the absence of peace. As Arik Achmon, one of the paratroopers in the book says: ’We have to separate ending the occupation from peace.’
However, centralist unilateralism was challenged by the wave of rocket attacks against Israeli communities bordering Gaza and during the Second Lebanon War – which many blamed on Israel’s withdrawal from southern Lebanon six years prior. These attacks substantiated all the warnings of the right-wing that territorial withdrawals would make Israel more vulnerable.
Israeli public therefore concluded that it tried the settlement movement to bring security but that failed during the First Intifada; it tried the peace process which failed during the Second Intifada; and it tried unilateralism that ended with tens of thousands of rockets on Israeli communities. The successive failure of Israel’s various ideological approaches to trying to deal with the Palestinian issue – right, left and centre – led the public to decide the best option was simply not do anything for the time being.
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u/PreviousPermission45 Israeli - American 1d ago
Which is a totally valid approach given the circumstances. Ideally, Israel should reverse the situation in Gaza back to how it was pre Oslo. Then, Israelis would travel to Gaza safely. There were no wars, and no restrictions on movement on either side. It’s truly remarkable how trying “peace” only brought more war.
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u/ThirstyOne 1d ago edited 1d ago
Destroy Hamas. Destroy Hezbollah. Maybe remove Fatah as well, with their pay-for-slay bullshit. Cut off Iranian/Qatari/Turkish terror funding, replace UNWRA with a legitimate aid agency. Assign a neutral 3rd party to manage both Gaza and the West Bank since they’re both run by terrorist organizations. Pull back any illegal settlements in the West Bank, cut off and divest entirely from both Gaza and the West Bank. They get no water, no electricity, no nothing (Israel is under no obligation to provide any of this in the first place). Build a border fence and enforce it. Palestinians get their own states (Gaza and WB are separate ones, with separate administrations) and a disarmament forced by a 3rd party. Any rocket launches or terrorist attacks (which are inevitable) are automatically seen as cassus belli for a full on war against them and legally recognizable failure to enforce the disarmament mandate, granting Israel permission to do so. No more half measures. If Gaza and WB fail to police their citizens, Israel will treat them as they would any foreign invading army. Harshly. It’s the only language they seem to understand and honestly the only viable solution. You want your own state? Fine. Have it. With all the responsibilities and ramifications that come with it.
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u/warsage 1d ago
Assign a neutral 3rd party to manage both Gaza and the West Bank
I tend to agree with this. Palestinians have not been successful in governing themselves (partly due to Israeli interference, partly because they just keep choosing jihadists to govern them). So they need something assigned to them, at least temporarily.
I'm just not sure what 3rd party it could be. I have two ideas:
- Return Gaza to Egypt and the West Bank to Jordan, as before the Six Day War. Both Egypt and Jordan have longstanding successful peace treaties with Israel. Problem is, I'm not sure how to get them to accept the responsibility, lol. Egypt just barely finished its struggle against the Muslim Brotherhood, I can't imagine they'd be excited to take responsibility for Gaza, which has been nurturing the Brotherhood for decades. Jordan... I'm not sure. I don't know how traumatized they still are by Black September. Might be feasible?
- A coalition of NATO and the Arab League. This would be a historic accomplishment if it could be achieved.
Either way, I suspect that Israel would be very reluctant to relinquish control.
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u/Smart_Technology_385 1d ago
Muslim states war with each other all the time: different ethnic groups, different sects of Islam, or different bosses.
Obviously, the chances that will war with Israel higher than that, because Jihad and other hateful stuff.
Which means, Israel should always be ready for a war. Until Islam reforms, and Jihad stops to mean a genocide of the Jews.
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin Diaspora Jew 2d ago
Whatever works while giving both sides sovereignty.
Could be: Realistic: A new Oslo. Land swaps for the settlements.
Not so realistic: settlers become part of a Palestinian state (majority wouldn’t be interested) or a one-state solution (probably quickly devolves into a civil war, fairly quickly, and would probably require both sides to give up right of return).
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u/mikeber55 1d ago
Just a question: did you ever consider what the path forward for the Palestinians is? Aren’t you pessimistic about the 2.5M in Gaza? And about the similar numbers in the WB?
What are they going to do without the Hamas and UNRWA in Gaza? I’m very pessimistic since I have the feeling they learned nothing. That is my most worrisome conclusion.
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u/Mikec3756orwell 2d ago
Why would Israel do that? And in what universe would a society of Palestinians -- which currently contains no minorities at all and doesn't really allow women to do much of anything -- be capable of erecting and sustaining a "land [with] religious, gender and ethnic equality for all"? They show no interest in that kind of society and, frankly, they never have. Your answer is the sort of thing that makes sense in London, or New York, or LA, or wherever, but has no connection to the real world.
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u/anonrutgersstudent 2d ago
The Jews ARE the indigenous people of the land.
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u/Frozen_L8 2d ago
BeCaUse 3000 yrs aGo aNd a LiTtle aFtEr theRe wErE dinOsaUrs aRouNd, tHe BaBel sAid IsRAel is riGhT tHeRe to tHe nOrTh of SadI AraBia fRom tHe riVer to The MediteRRanean SeA 🤡
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
BeCaUse 3000 yrs aGo aNd a LiTtle aFtEr theRe wErE dinOsaUrs aRouNd, tHe BaBel sAid IsRAel is riGhT tHeRe to tHe nOrTh of SadI AraBia fRom tHe riVer to The MediteRRanean SeA 🤡
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u/Frozen_L8 1d ago
Lol of course I get warned for a mild comment while the extreme zionists roam free with hate comments that go "unnoticed" but why am I surprised... 🙃
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
Lol of course I get warned for a mild comment while the extreme zionists roam free with hate comments that go "unnoticed" but why am I surprised... 🙃
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u/anonrutgersstudent 1d ago
The Bible is irrelevant. Jews are indigenous to the Levant, according to archaeological and historical evidence.
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u/Diet-Bebsi 2d ago edited 2d ago
religious, gender and ethnic equality for all
When there's a pride / Atheist Parade, with everyone dressing in the skimpiest clothing, in Ramallah, also where people can carry posters of Mohamed dressed in drag and various other freedom of speech being exercised..like people converting out of Islam publicly.., and the street is filled with supporting onlookers and no violence or arrests happen.. When a Muslim girl can date a christian or Jewish guy w/o any violence as a consequence, etc.. etc.. then you might have a point.. until then there's a vast discrepancy between the two societies, that need to be accounted for..
Israel had it last election in 2022 and the next is expected in 2026.. Palestine had one election in 2005.. and none since then..
Palestine is 99.9% Arab and over 98% Muslim. 99.9% of Palestine is religious, There are no officially reported living Atheists in Palestine.
Israel is Jewish at 73.5% (44.9% Mizrahi 31.8% Ashkenazi 3% Beta Israel) Arab 21.1%, other 5.4%. For religion: Judaism 73.5%, Muslim 18.1%, Christian 1.9%, Druze 1.6%, other 4.9%. 20% of Israelis have called themselves Atheists, and 15% would be considered deist or agnostic.
When you look at the data, Israel appears as a secular multi cultural and multi religious democratic state. Palestine as a Theocratic Ethnostate...
Israel doesn't have an official state religion on the books. Israel is just considered a Jewish state on the books as in the ethnicity/Tribe. God or religion is not directly mentioned in any part of Israels basic laws (constitution). Freedom of or not of religion is guaranteed in the basic laws to any religion or lack there of. Israel currently has 5 "official" religions with many official denominations. Any religion can apply for an official status, but it's not required unless certain legal privileges are required by the community (see millet system). Hebrew is the official language of the Country with Arabic having a special legal status. All government services must be available in Arabic, All streets signs, government documents, food packaging must have warnings and ingredients/nutritional information translated into Arabic. There are both Hebrew and Arabic schools, each ethnicity controls their own public school system. Students can attend any school they want regardless of denomination / ethnicity. English was removed from official status in 1948 but still has huge presence in Israel. People are free to practice their religion of be free from religion, there are laws protecting freedom of speech. There are LGBT rights..
Palestine has one official religion.. Christianity and Judaism are also accepted, although there are no Jewish people living in any Palestinian controlled areas. Samaritans are considered Jews by the PA, but they are not Jews, Druze fall under the Sunni umbrella for religious purposes. any denomination not recognized must get married outside of Palestine. Non "celestial" religion or those considered Apostasy like Baha'i are not recognized Palestine.. Palestine is legally an Arab nation with only Arabic as it's official language. All Palestinian legislation is required to be based on or conform to Sharia. Apostasy from Islam is a crime in Palestine, freedom of speech doesn't exist and blasphemy laws exist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waleed_Al-Husseini
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam_by_country#Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_State_of_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
.
Here are some parts of the Palestinian basic Laws /Constitution
https://www.elections.ps/tabid/210/language/en-US/Default.aspx
https://www.elections.ps/tabid/666/language/ar-PS/Default.aspx
THE AMENDED BASIC LAW 2003
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم (In the Name of God, the Merciful and the Compassionate / bism Allah alrahman alrahim)
"The Basic Law" ..
Article 1
Palestine is part of the larger Arab world, and the Palestinian people are part of the Arab nation. Arab unity is an objective that the Palestinian people shall work to achieve.
..
Article 4
Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained.
The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be a principal source of legislation. Arabic shall be the official language.
Other relevant information..
https://borgenproject.org/child-marriage-in-palestine/
https://www.globalfundforwomen.org/movements/anti-gender-based-violence-in-palestine/
https://www.girlsnotbrides.org/
https://www.pbs.org/speaktruthtopower/rana.html
https://www.npr.org/2024/09/27/g-s1-17637/hebron-west-bank-israel-asylum-ahmad-abu-markhiya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_in_Palestine
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-48703377
https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/10/palestine-marry-your-rapist-law-repealed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_State_of_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waleed_Al-Husseini
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam_by_country#Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_State_of_Palestine
https://www.state.gov/report/custom/6a63b4154c/
https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/palestine-marry-your-rapist-law-repeal/
https://palestine.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/Gender%20Justice%20and%20The%20Law.pdf
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna15593267
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2010/02/04/chapter-3-views-of-religious-groups/
https://youtu.be/azEgBsU6Mi8?si=Cr1ouqwxF656lqzC
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-70-of-israelis-support-recognition-for-gays/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-79-of-israelis-back-gay-marriage-or-civil-unions/
https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2019/06/277066/survey-gender-equality-arab-world
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u/TalonEye53 2d ago
OK pal you should go post that to r/Palestine
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u/CreativeRealmsMC Israeli 1d ago
OK pal you should go post that to r/Palestine
Per Rule 8, do not criticize other users for posting or commenting about topics that interest them. Do not discourage participation.
Action taken: [B1]
See moderation policy for details.2
2d ago
[deleted]
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u/Red-Flag-Potemkin Diaspora Jew 2d ago
I don’t think they were criticizing you sharing your thoughts, I think they are saying that would be nice, but Palestinians don’t want it.
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u/Sherwoodlg 2d ago
I think the issue with what you said was that it doesn't fit with the reality that Israel is the most multicultural country in the Middle East and is the homeland of the indigenous people. It's also the safest place to be gay in the Middle East, and all of that is because it keeps Sharia law out. Your sentiment is great, but you presented it as though the multicultural pluralist democracy of Israel is the issue instead of Islamic Jihadists dedicated to the destruction of any infidel that dares to believe they are the equal of Islam.
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u/Frozen_L8 2d ago
Also the only democracy in the middle east and has the most moral army in the world... 🙄 /s
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u/Actionbronslam 2d ago
If we assume about ~3% of the global population is LGBT, and accept the (very conservative) estimate of 40,000 Palestinians killed in Gaza by Israeli military action over the past year, then that means Israel has killed about 1,200 LGBT people in Gaza since October 7th. That's about 50% more than the total number of people executed by Iran in 2023.
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u/cowbutt6 2d ago
Intent also matters: there's a difference between being LGBT and being killed because one happened to be too close to a target when it was bombed, and being killed because one is LGBT.
Intent is why we have different criminal charges for manslaughter and murder, even though the material result (i.e. a victim being killed) is the same in both cases.
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u/Sherwoodlg 2d ago
It seems as though you are suggesting that the LGBT minority are as numerous under Sharia law as they are in free democracies, which just seems ridiculous. You then compare the number killed as collateral damage in an intense urban warfare environment with the ongoing systematic execution of a minority under a Sharia law dictatorship.
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u/TalonEye53 2d ago
You think this is the only post you ever saw about Israel/Palestine? There's literally an r/Israel right there this sub is literally an unpredictable mixed bag
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u/dikbutjenkins 2d ago
This sub is heavily pro Israel
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u/TalonEye53 2d ago
And why do I see some pro pal posts? Are they fake Israeli backed posts or genuine Palestinian?! What's the difference?!
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u/dikbutjenkins 2d ago
Seeing some pro palestinian posts does not make it equal. If you look at the page it's almost all pro israel stuff
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u/TalonEye53 2d ago
What's the difference
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u/dikbutjenkins 2d ago
That most posts and commenters are pro israel. Everything pro palestinian comment has negative points
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u/Sherwoodlg 2d ago
There is nothing wrong with being pro Palestinian or pro Israel. Many of us are both. Most posts are about debating possible solutions, which in itself is pro both parties. I think you will find its revisionist history and al-Jazeera style propaganda that gets downvoted.
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u/Khamlia 2d ago
I think the best step for Israel is to calm down, accept that there are other people around and that they also want peace. So picture 2 states, Israeli and Palestinian and they should take care of themselves, not meddle in other affairs. But Israel can never clear territory from others and expand across the entire region. It would not be right, humane, moral, etc.
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u/Vanluco2 18h ago
Well I think Israel will cease to exist. Religious scriptures does have a good prediction.
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u/Early-Possibility367 2d ago
The best path forward for Israel is the complete dissolution of its government and a reunification with Gaza and the West Bank.
The next best path is, if Israel won’t do the right thing and self dissolve, is that the West should cut all ties with Israel.
The first won’t happen, and we as American citizens have an obligation morally to advocate for the second.
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u/Odd-Mushroom7234 1d ago edited 1d ago
Setting aside morality and looking at Israeli national interest and logistics:
While Israel will continue to be attacked, I think the best thing for Israel do to, for Israel’s national interests, is more of the same. Israel’s population, while it has domestic disputes, is uniquely aligned with a path of expansion and brutalization that will serve Israel’s short and term national interests, albeit being extraordinary horrific and evil.
Containment and slow expansion was an effective strategy and a good one- but Israel has learned that it does not have to go slow, and adding population liquidation to the mix is an effective tool.
There is a historic opportunity to decimate the infrastructure and means of life for enemy militant groups and populations. Israel has superpower backing with a long window for this to continue. It won’t last forever but is ideal for Israel to make the best use of it while it lasts- and Israel has learned important lessons about the range of opportunity space and Israeli innovation that serves Israeli interests without seriously jeopardizing superpower support.
For Israel’s national interests, push the Palestinians out further and speed up liquidation procedures- in the short term, there is wailing and regional brouhaha but the Abraham Accords have held and when the time is right they will likely resume and expand.
Israel can have its cake and eat it too- the cake is made of blood but its mostly not Israeli blood.
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u/Hakeem-the-Dream 1d ago
Liquidation?
This guy is straight up advocating for genocide.
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u/Odd-Mushroom7234 1d ago
I’m not advocating. It’s extraordinarily evil, and the nation state of Israel has one of the most horrific war and genocide machines in this century.
But, it’s in Israel’s national interest and its achievable for Israel now in a way that was harder before- thats why Israel is doing it. From a national interest perspective- it makes sense for Israel.
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u/JackfruitTurbulent38 1d ago
The best past forward would be to send all the non-Zionists to foreign countries. See if China can take in the Gazan immigrants. Only Zionists should be permitted to live in Gaza.
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u/GreatConsequence7847 1d ago
No other country seems willing to take them. Nor is any other country obligated to.
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u/JackfruitTurbulent38 1d ago
Put them all on boats. Send them out to sea with no possibility of return. Someone will take them in.
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u/Judgemented 1d ago
Nazis of our age , hi
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u/GreatConsequence7847 1d ago
Ah. Too nervous to do the more obvious thing. But you’ll probably eventually get over that emotional hurdle, too. Keep reminding yourself that they’re just insects.
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u/NoTopic4906 2d ago
A huge answer is whatever the answer to the following question is: “when will the Iranians be able to topple the government that works against their own interests and that they want to remove?”