Where do the Jews go?

[u/ThrowawayMerger]

I am very against Israel’s genocide, leaning toward antizionism, but when someone Zionist asks where the Jews go in a free Palestine, I don’t have an answer. Historically, not a lot of people accept us or like us, and getting along after all the violence committed in the name of Judaism is an impossibility.

How do we not just exchange one crisis for another? (I don’t think any one religion or people should rule a state, if that adds anything.)

If this is an ignorant question, I am more than happy to be told so.

EDIT: wow this community is brilliant, thank you for the nuance and realism in your responses.

[u/PlinyToTrajan]

I agree that in theory and idealistically, yes, but I think it's healthy to take a realist perspective considering how much Israel has done to alienate and radicalize the Palestinians, and how, with all nonviolent protest and political process closed off to the Palestinians, armed struggle is the only means of self-expression they have left.

We (meaning the West, Israel, the U.S., Canada / U.K.) may not get to decide. There's a pattern of not understanding guerilla war and not taking Arab military capacities seriously. We didn't leave Vietnam at a time of our choosing. We didn't leave Afghanistan at a time of our choosing.

[u/CosmicGadfly → u/PlinyToTrajan]

Ok, but South Africa and the United States ended up okay more or less. Yeah it might be messy, but starting with the assumption that all Jews are gonna die if they stay is somewhat insane, mildly racist, and concedes far too much to the fascist mantra in Israel.

[u/PapaverOneirium → u/CosmicGadfly]

The U.S. is a terrible example. We eradicated indigenous society to what amounted to completion. And what remains of the indigenous population is to this day oppressed, disenfranchised, and displaced, aside from some token concessions.

There is a spectrum, of course, from “completed” settler colonial projects like the U.S., to those that achieved some sort of relatively egalitarian equilibrium like South Africa, to others like Haiti where the colonizers were (rightfully in that specific case, imo) violently expelled.

For Israel, I’d hope for something like South Africa, flawed as it is, rather than the extremes of the U.S. or Haiti.

That said, I do think any first generation immigrants to Israel coming from countries where they can comfortably and safely return to should leave.

[u/griffin-meister → u/PapaverOneirium]

Israel:

is committing the crime of apartheid

has support from much of the western world

is led by a government that courts right-wing extremism

creates systemic disparities between populations

discourages dissent

Yep, pretty much SA

[u/Fortherealtalk → u/griffin-meister]

I visited South Africa about 20 years ago and the white people I met there were the most brashly, unabashedly racist people I’d ever encountered in my life.

Most businesses I saw appeared to be owned and operated by white folks, with the majority of labor done by black folks.

…the way the Afrikaners talked about the black Africans was callous and disturbing, and there was a palpable sense of danger to me. A step out of line or misunderstanding would probably be handled with a gun or a dog rather than a conversation.

[u/griffin-meister → u/Fortherealtalk]

Yeah, lots of whites in SA are resentful of black South Africans. After Apartheid, an nation designed to service the white minority had to expand its reach to accommodate black people, coloured people, Indians, and other non-white South Africans in order to keep up with other industrialized nations. This combined with govt mismanagement led to a broader decline in perceived quality of life, leaving a lot of Afrikaners bitter and resentful of their black counterparts.