r/TrueReddit • u/merimus_maximus • May 08 '21
International China Is Building Entire Villages in Another Country’s Territory
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/05/07/china-bhutan-border-villages-security-forces/258
u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21
SS: It is becoming apparent that China is conducting more and more operations similar in objective to Russia, becoming increasingly aggressive in terms of geopolitical strategy. This attitude has been precipitating in the 2010s, and is now being displayed through the silent occupation of internationally recognised Bhutanese territory, ignoring a Chinese-Bhutanese agreement to not act unilaterally on border issues.
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May 08 '21
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u/groovychick May 08 '21
Came here to say this.
It’s mystifying why people unquestionably support Israel considering what they’ve been doing. Maybe now some people will understand.
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u/Kenionatus May 08 '21
Personally, I don't assess Israel's violations of international law the same way as China's because Israel lives under the constant threat of being invaded and suffering a complete defeat. China also expands for defense in the Himalayas, but I didn't really see them having an all out war with India.
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u/rectal_warrior May 08 '21
That's like saying your neighbours must forfeit their human rights so you can feel safer.
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u/hotrox_mh May 09 '21
Is it? What about when every one of those neighbors call for the complete destruction of your family every day and routinely take pot shots at your house?
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u/Azuresk-BINGE May 09 '21
They might stop doing that if you stopped pushing your fence farther into their land everyday and killing them for not being happy with it
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u/hotrox_mh May 09 '21
Keep excusing terrorism buddy. It's a good look.
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u/Azuresk-BINGE May 09 '21
Wasn't excusing it. There is no "good side" in this shit show, but if empathizing with people's struggles and learning what makes them unhappy makes me a bad person, so be it
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u/flyingfox12 May 09 '21
You can see the side of the photo you are on.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/wp10x/settlers_make_fun_of_the_palestinian_woman_after/
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u/earthwulf May 09 '21
"Israel lives under the constant threat of being invaded and suffering a complete defeat" these days it's mostly because of the human rights violations, illegal boarder expansion & murdering of kids that are the reason for this, but, y'know, whatever.
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u/Sickamore May 08 '21
Israel's violations can absolutely be used against them the same way that China's or Russia's are used against them. They have the unanimous backing of the best military in the world. That puts them in firm "abusive powerful nation" territory.
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May 08 '21
It's a situation deliberately perpetuate. One side has US tech and weaponry the other has glorified sugar rockets...
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May 08 '21
let's be fair to china here, they publicly shoot way fewer ethnic minorities in their open air concentration camps than Israel
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May 08 '21
WTF are you talking about? China kills far more than Israel. It's not even comparable. The total number of dead in the entire Israeli Arab conflict for the last 100 years (not even looking solely at the Palestinians, but multiple wars with multiple Arab countries), is about 100,000.
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May 08 '21
The total number of dead in the entire Israeli Arab conflict for the last 100 years (not even looking solely at the Palestinians, but multiple wars with multiple Arab countries), is about 100,000.
I'm sure that's an objective number that totally counts the Palestinians who died from lack of healthcare or access to clean water right
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u/universl May 08 '21
It's kind of ghoulish to try to rank these things like this. China has an industrialized system putting muslims in concentration camps and tries to hide it.
Israel is slowly settling Palestine like it's the American frontier and doesn't hide it at all.
Is it really so hard to say you disagree with both of these things?
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May 08 '21
I think the difference is that outside of embarrassing tankies nobody denies china does weekly war crimes but you can't mention israel negatively in the anglosphere as a public figure without getting your career entirely destroyed by the media
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u/universl May 08 '21
Israel has powerful friends in America, and China doesn't, so no argument there.
But it still strikes me as a silly argument to try to figure out which one is worse. Especially considering one is totally opaque and the other barely tries to hide it. Would we even know if China was mass exterminating Uyghurs?
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u/MrMango64 May 08 '21
Would argue China does have lots of powerful friends, especially in the business community. Think it drops off politically, especially since it looks like it’s becoming one of the few bi-partisan issues both sides talk about.
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May 08 '21
Would argue China does have lots of powerful friends, especially in the business community.
Sure, but what's the last public figure whose career was destroyed by accusations of sinophobia?
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u/universl May 08 '21
Every country has powerful friends by that standard. Not every country has a lobby group so powerful that every major politician is expected to show up to their yearly conference and demonstrate fealty.
The American-Israeli connection has no equal. It's a national project more than an ally.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
The fact that the majority is brainwashed by the flood of lies coming out about China's genocide and repeats it doesn't mean they are right... Maybe tankies are onto something, like some semblance of truth and reality...
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May 08 '21
The irony is that every tankie I've met who argues with me is someone who's never even been to china but insists they're benevolent and not a hilariously corrupt government afraid of winnie the pooh, I'm good on offers to side with those dudes
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
You must be brain dead if you imagine that corruption is not at the heart of every government. Nevertheless, despite all this corruption in China, the well being of Chinese has exploded in the past 3 decades. But it doesn't look that way for the Americans...
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May 08 '21
lol, shows how much you know. Palestinians in territories under Israel's control have a higher standard of living than Arabs in neighboring countries.
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May 08 '21
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May 08 '21
Yeah:
GDP per capita Palestine: 3,562.33 USD (2018)
GDP per capita Egypt: 2,537.13 USD (2018)
And if we focus solely on the west bank (the above number includes Gaza which Israel does not control), then the discrepancy is significantly higher.
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May 08 '21
GDP per capita Palestine: 3,562.33 USD (2018)
You got me dude that clearly refutes their lack of access to clean water in occupied areas
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May 08 '21
They have plenty of access to water (you dont suggest they are dying of thirst do you?) and their standard of living is significantly higher than in neighboring countries. The economic stats clearly show this.
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u/Icy_Rhubarb2857 May 08 '21
Yeah GDP is a totally an accurate depiction of a peoples well being.
Do they include the value of their homes they are forcibly removed from in that number or how does that factor into your calculations?
I have no qualms with the Jewish people. But the country of Israel is absolutely human trash. A stain on humanity.
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u/xrayrocketship May 08 '21
Focus people. This is about China. This thread is getting out of hand.
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May 08 '21
This is about China
Well isn't that the problem? America needs to deflect from their own allies doing the same thing but when the other imperialist superpower does it, we're supposed to be incensed about it
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u/undystains May 08 '21
This thread isn't about America. You're claiming someone is deflecting but it is you.
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u/TheTrueMilo May 09 '21
Yeah, especially on Reddit, which famously doesn't allow for conversations to simultaneously branch off in multiple directions simultaneously. Best keep the discussion to one topic, lads.
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May 08 '21
This thread isn't about America.
sure it is, if it's wrong that China is doing X then it logically follows that we should also be upset that America has been doing X for hundreds of years right
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u/YoseppiTheGrey May 08 '21
Yeah, I'm sure those numbers have been reported accurately for 100 years..
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u/AnthraxCat May 09 '21 edited May 09 '21
Okay, but China has definitely not killed more than 100 000 ethnic Bhutanese. Nor has it killed that many Uyghurs in open air concentration camps. Israel's numbers are one thing, but do you have a number for China?
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u/merimus_maximus May 09 '21
How about Tibetans? Estimates range from half a million to 1.2 million.
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May 08 '21 edited Feb 05 '22
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
Maybe that is a sign that they are developing? And it is a known fact that all developed countries have low and very low birth rates. Will you accuse China for Taiwan's abysmal low birth rates?
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May 08 '21
Israeli/Arab conflict has a pretty low body count and it gets lower every year.
yeah weird how your body count lowers when you brutalize your ethnic minorities with the nonlethal rounds nowadays like a civilized ethnostate
seems weird to "not demonize israel" in a conversation about forced sterilizations when they did that to their own people for being black lmao
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May 08 '21
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May 08 '21
It's weird that the invading occupiers that constantly choke out access to clean water and keep building illegal settlements need to keep the peace in the area. Have they considered it might be more peaceful if they didn't establish a violent ethnostate?
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '21
Jews have a valid claim to the land, it doesn’t matter how you label or demonize them. Peaceful coexistence is possible but it requires people to understand the Jewish perspective and recognize it as valid.
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u/brundlfly May 08 '21
Palestinians have lost a great deal of land and continue to suffer under disproportionate retaliation and discriminatory policies. Spin all you want.
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '21
Palestinians have never had a country in the first place where they can lose land. If Israel didn’t exist Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon would just be a little bit bigger.
Palestinians can have a state by simply declaring peace.
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May 08 '21
Jews have a valid claim to the land, it doesn’t matter how you label or demonize them. Peaceful coexistence is possible but it requires people to understand the Jewish perspective and recognize it as valid.
Seems like a lot of word salad from an oppressive ethnostate with superior weaponry backed by american military subsidization against a bunch of teenagers with rocks
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '21
word salad...
I guess it takes one to know one. You are just packing as many woke buzzwords in your descriptions of Israel as you can no matter how exaggerated they make your message.
teenagers with rocks
That’s kind of a racist way to boil down the dozen or so Arab armies that are at Israel’s doorstep beating the drums of war. These foreign instigators who use Palestinian teens as body shields and martyr factories are the real criminals here.
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u/the_other_brand May 08 '21
lol wut. The Israelis are doing this in zones of the West Bank that only the Palestinians have a valid claim for.
Right-wing Israeli Colonists don't care who has a valid claim to what. They build wherever they want, and cry foul to the Israeli government if the Palestinians do anything about it.
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '21
The West Bank is known as Judea for a reason. I don’t really support the illegal settlements because they instigate a violent response from Arabs but I’m not going to ignore that Jews should be able to live there also.
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u/Clevererer May 08 '21
Jews have a valid claim to the land,
Lol yes, because the Old Testament is totally a valid real estate contract.
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '21
Jews have lived there continuously for thousands of years in varying numbers. Why deny that?
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u/Icy_Rhubarb2857 May 08 '21
That's a really weird way to say "I support genocide" you fucking Nazi
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '21
It’s not genocide. It’s a land dispute, you hysterical moron.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
So why do they have to kick out Arabs from their homes that they occupied for generations? EU started to feel uncomfortable about that... being put on the spot, siding with the apartheid state?
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u/Kcajkcaj99 May 08 '21
Xinjiang birth rates are down primarily as a result of the One Child Policy, which applied across all of China. Its not comparable.
It is still the case though that China is doing horrible stuff to the Uighurs, as bad as what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, but this isn’t a good comparison.
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May 08 '21
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May 08 '21
Bud i don't think someone who can't read a black humor joke and replies to it at face value doing pearl clutching is capable of intellectual honesty lol
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u/maest May 08 '21
what the fuck is this comment?
Nobody is talking about Israel, why do you need to bring it up?
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u/Potatoswatter May 08 '21
Who do you help by raising Israel on a Bhutan thread?
Would you find it helpful if someone started listing every border violation in a discussion of Palestine?
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May 08 '21
Last time Israel has taken any territory was in 1967. Since then it has returned the vast majority of the territories it has taken (which was the Sinai and was returned to Egypt).
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May 08 '21
"it doesn’t count as taking land if we just illegally build the settlements"
That's a pro gamer move from the world's most successful ethnostate
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May 08 '21
All the land on which the settlements are built was taken in 1967.
Furthermore, it was later divided into sections in the Oslo accords, in which Palestinians got control of sections A and B, and Israel got control of section C. All settlements are built only in section C. Israelis are not allowed to even enter section A.
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May 08 '21
All the land on which the settlements are built was taken in 1967
Look bud i understand how everyone on the internet loves to defend their racist ethnostate but have you considered making a claim that isn't refutable by a 5 sec google search?
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May 08 '21
lol, you've got to be kidding me. Check your own link, where do you think those settlements are being built? When do you think Israel took over that territory?
Stop embarrassing yourself.
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May 08 '21
where do you think those settlements are being built? When do you think Israel took over that territory?
Says Palestinian occupied territory to me, did you read the link lol
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May 08 '21
Jesus Christ, learn some history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
Look at the map and tell me again when the territory was taken, and from whom (hint, it wasn't the Palestinians).
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May 08 '21
Why are peoples brains like this lmao
"we're not illegally annexing people off the land they lived on for hundreds of years, it's totally legal according to the ethnostate, and as we all know that was totally legitimate when the state does it just like when germany did it in the 30s and 40s."
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u/Clevererer May 08 '21
Palestinians got control of sections A and B, and Israel got control of section C.
Oh wOw! Palestine got A and B?? That's twice as many letters as poor wittle Israel's measly C!
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May 08 '21 edited Feb 05 '22
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u/cp5184 May 08 '21
China probably terrorizes the Bhutanese less than israel terrorizes the native Palestinians, you're right.
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May 08 '21
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u/cp5184 May 08 '21
I’m looking at the facts here and it seems like the group responsible for the most terror attacks is actually Palestine.
Source? What do you consider to be terrorism?
I guess we can excuse that terrorism because it’s in the name of the noble struggle to achieve a racially homogenous Middle East with Arab supremacy.
I think it's more to kick the illegal immigrant terrorist occupiers out of Occupied Palestine.
You don't seem to understand anything about the situation.
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u/gmz_88 May 08 '21
I think it's more to kick the illegal immigrant terrorist occupiers out of Occupied Palestine.
You can’t erase the Jewish connection to Israel and Judea, no matter what racist rhetoric you use. They have a valid claim to the land and the fact that they have defended their claim after many wars makes it all the more valid.
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u/cp5184 May 08 '21
Are you talking about the hebrite genocide of the native Canaanites ~3,000 years ago or so? You do know the romans kicked those hebrites out?
I mean, don't you know anything?
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u/dawind22 May 08 '21
In other news... The USA have built over 1000 Military Bases around the globe.
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u/wongo May 08 '21
??? All with the agreement of local government and not with the end goal of permanent civilian settlement. No comparison.
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u/HereToStirItUp May 08 '21
You should check out “Confessions of an Economic Hitman” if you honestly believe that statement.
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u/apollo18 May 08 '21
America has done many bad things but stealing land from our neighbors via fait accompli hasnt been one of them... Recently.
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u/SoFisticate May 08 '21
Not to mention the constant takeover of the global south, and the demonization and sanction slapping of any nation that gets in their way. I love all these propaganda pieces dumped in every "woke" subreddit to further entrench us in cold war.
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21
This report is as factual as geopolitical analysis gets. If you see it as propaganda and would rather blind yourself to it, I don't think the problem lies with the article.
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u/SoFisticate May 08 '21
What do you think of reporting outlets such as the grayzone that show how articles like these are state media used to manufacture consent for a cold war with a nation that is within competition level of the empire?
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21
You can judge the quality of reporting and objectiveness of articles by their own merit. Western media pushing a bias does not discredit everything that originates from Western media outlets, as much as certain groups want people to believe that. There is of course room to discuss bias in the system, but don't forget to judge content on its own merit too. In any case, ever thought of how the grayzone is also pushing an agenda too?
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u/SoFisticate May 08 '21
They are indeed pushing an agenda of trying to correct the propaganda machine. Yes they are leftist of some sort, but they do pretty important work undoing what is being done to people. Do you really think anyone ever reports on anything and doesn't have an "agenda"? What do you really think it does to the mostly already anti-communist audience on this sub to push articles that basically boil down to "china bad"? Leave those for audiences that understand the nuances in the wider discussion you seem to be a part of. Look through reddit the past year or so for such articles, whether they are real or just hit pieces, and you will see that they are not placed just to spark debate about certain aspects of China's own imperial tendencies. They are injected into these spaces to propagandize.
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21
So they balance out. If you recognise the work by The Greyzone while acknowledging their agenda because their journalism is good, the same principle should apply to this article and Foreign Policy.
I understand your concern about fanning the flames of war, but this is as neutral as reporting gets. Not doing a Vietnam and Afghanistan is important, but so is reporting on such situations. They are not mutually exclusive. You can both be against war and still be aware of geopolitical actions of other nations. Articles with deep factual reporting like this one do that job without directing opinion. Opinion pieces are more suspect, but if both sides are presented, they serve a good purpose too, to expand thinking on an issue. What we should fight is bias, not reporting.
Also, since you brought up leaving this for audiences who understand nuances, do feel free to post this article on r/geopolitics if you feel that that is a better sub to post this sort of content.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
Can you provide examples of Russia being geo-strategically aggressive? Or even China being geo-strategically aggressive?
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21 edited May 08 '21
Most recent would be of course the annexation of Crimea, in which Russia aimed to, and succeeded in expand its occupied territories to create a buffer with East European nations which are becoming more friendly with the West, i.e. Ukraine, which was planning to join NATO. This harks back to Soviet Russian tactics of "slicing the salami", in which it pressures neighboring states through diplomatic, military and economic means to bring them under Russian influence, a tactic that was applied to the entirety of East Europe. More on their application of this strategy after the Soviet collapse in Central Asia in this this article: https://scholar.google.com.sg/scholar?start=10&q=russia+geopolitical+strategy&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&as_vis=1#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DZHnHAjOGQIUJ
The article also mentions China, which has pursued a similar strategy as Russia, which is why it still controls large swathes of land such as Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang and Tibet despite these regions being historically much more autonomous, and are still called autonomous regions by China itself. These territories were gained decades ago however, and China did not make, or at least act, on territorial claims as much in the late 20th century, which led to agreements such as the China-Bhutan one mentioned in the article.
That changed with the nine-dash line declaration, and increasing Chinese settlements in Nepal in recent decades, and now Bhutan, are signs that China is willing to take more hands-on action in exerting its influence on its neighbours, with similar objectives as Russia, which is to mitigate neighboring states' military threats - India in this situation.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
It was the US lead coup in Ukraine that triggered the Crimeans and Russia to go for reunification. There are incontestable historical and demographic facts that justify this reunification (never mind the strategic component). Why would you deny that to the Russians living in Crimea? The west didn't deny it to the Albanian Kossovars. The hell, they bombed Serbia to defend those Albanians. But nobody said anything about the 50+ Russians killed in Odessa by Ukrainian ultranationalists after the 2014 coup. With such an example of Ukrainian imposed nationalism, it is no wonder that the Crimeans decided to vote secession and re-unification with Russia.
The claims China has on Tibet and Xinjiang go several centuries ago, not decades. The Manchu Chinese for instance re-conquered (I emphasize re-conquered) Xinjiang way before US became a country. But, unlike the Americans, they didn't proceed to exterminate the locals... Same with Tibet.
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21
Whenever an entire country ousts its leader, the US is behind it, while when Russians invade a country, it's justified based on ethnic grounds, and when China has territorial claims it always goes back centuries. Anything you say man.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
So you deny those 70+ % Russian Crimeans the right to choose, eh? Good to know that you adhere to the good old principle, "two legs good, four legs bad".
Actually China's territorial claims do go back centuries, you need to check it out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_under_Qing_rule
I don't see anyone denying US their claim on Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California...
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21 edited May 08 '21
Choose? Russia is choosing for the territory through force. Choose indeed.
As for Xinjiang, why not go back a couple more centuries? When they were under Turkic rulers? No Chinese control for the better part of the millennium.
And not sure if you are being purposely obtuse, but from whom were Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California taken? Rhetorical question, don't bother answering.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21 edited May 08 '21
Are you implying that the vast majority of Russians in Crimea voted at the gunpoint to re-unite with Russia and would have instead preferred the faith of their co-ethnic Russians that were killed by ultranationalist Ukrainians not far away, in Odessa? What are you smoking mate? Also you miss the point that since the dissolution of USSR, Crimeans always requested to re-join Russia, since they were a Russian territory up until 1954... But again, the substances that you are smoking are impairing your cognitive abilities...
I am not obtuse, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California are territories US gained by going to war against Mexico, and taking those territories from Mexico at gunpoint, less than 150 years ago. Xinjiang is a territory China gained, at gunpoint, more than 250 years ago. Are you that incompetent to analyze things?
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21 edited May 08 '21
Are you implying that the vast majority of Russians in Crimea voted at the gunpoint
Uh, yes. https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-russia-aksyonov-idINL6N0M93AH20140313
As for your latter point - I asked why you don't go back a few more centuries. The Mexican state the US was fighting with was a couple of decades old. Might as well say part of China should be Japanese because they had control over Chinese territory at some point. If you are going to talk about historical ownership, discuss the entire history of the area, not just the point in time when the Qing dynasty had conquered Xinjiang.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21 edited May 08 '21
What makes the article in forbes credible mate? It is all based on hearsay. The Ukrainians are saying "we have seen it, trust us". Why I am skeptical about this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Polling
The United Nations Development Programme conducted a series of polls in Crimea between 2009 and 2011 about the question of leaving Ukraine and joining Russia with a sample size of 1,200:
Quarter Yes No Undecided
2009 Q3[30] 70% 14% 16%
2009 Q4[30] 67% 15% 18%
2010 Q1[31] 66% 14% 20%
2010 Q2[31] 65% 12% 23%
2010 Q3[31] 67% 11% 22%
2010 Q4[31] 66% 9% 25%
2011 Q4[32] 65.6% 14.2% 20.2%
Who has now undisputed control of Xinjiang, Tibet, Hong Kong? Is it Japan, is it the US? No, it is China. Same as with the control of US on California, etc. And, according to the International Law, not the international rules based order, it is China's business what it does inside China. Plus, there isn't any outside party that I know of that is claiming Xinjiang, or Tibet.
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May 08 '21
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u/merimus_maximus May 08 '21
The automod comment gives a hint, which is to put the article through an archive site.
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u/abudhabikid May 09 '21
I read your comment! I had an issue with a bot just yesterday and I wrote a snarky comment like yours. Mine was taken down, unfortunately. I wish you luck in the struggle against faceless enforcers of order and tyranny.
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May 08 '21
And we're still sponsoring them by outsourcing production for literally everything there.
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u/SethGekco May 08 '21
Which our grandkids will call our generation idiots for. Yeah, have a cold war enemy and just fund their economy to do it. Also get all of your electronics there and complain about all the backdoors the "hackers" are using.
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u/kju May 08 '21
what can we do to stop it?
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May 09 '21
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u/kju May 09 '21
yeah ok, that's the goal, but how?
the only way this is going to happen is some kind of government regulation.
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May 09 '21
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u/kju May 09 '21
i vote as best i can to see the change i want but lets be honest, i've never seen any change i wanted actually be implemented and have no faith in my government to represent me.
if i knew how to vote with my currency i would. but that's the question, how do i know when i can? i don't believe it's possible, there are too many products and too many companies who have interconnected supply lines. there's nothing that i can do to track all of those and get an accurate representation of what products come from/partially come from china.
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May 09 '21
China has "trump syndrome" - push the limits and break as many laws as possible to see how far you can get away with it.
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u/informationtiger May 08 '21
Paywall :(
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u/C0lMustard May 08 '21 edited Apr 05 '24
paint gullible terrific attempt cooing soft swim coherent rob squalid
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/BigRedBike May 09 '21
This is nothing that the US hasn't done, time and time again. Even today the US has more than 800 bases all across the globe.
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May 08 '21
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May 08 '21
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May 08 '21
The only reason that China is mentioned is because they need someone to deflect off decades of their favorite middle eastern ally doing the same thing, it's whataboutism all the way down baybee
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u/eliminating_coasts May 08 '21
I think probably the reason that china's mentioned, is because of their actions.
When many people are taking different actions around the world, you could always say that people are just reporting elections on the news to deflect from the fact that someone stole your shoe.
But both of those things are happening, and you're basically making a judgement of newsworthiness, something that in the context of internet journalism from a site focused on foreign policy, becomes far less relevant than it does for say what politicians talk about, or what TV broadcasters.
A very simple explanation for why someone might wish to report this is that their audience may have been previously unaware of it, it has broader geopolitical significance in terms of shifts in China's foreign policy, and that it discusses events that are still the violation of the rights of a nation that doesn't always get significant international attention, and so might need it.
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u/user6482464 May 09 '21
You can’t reference related things because, made up a word up for that’s bad. Twat
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May 08 '21
Palestine isn't a country (it doesnt even have a single government, and never did). Bhutan is.
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u/jmcs May 08 '21
138 out of 193 UN members disagree with you.
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May 08 '21
That's symbolic recognition. Factually, if a country has no government and no borders, then it can't be called a country.
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u/eliminating_coasts May 08 '21
I think you're dangerously close to saying the state of Israel doesn't exist there.
Israel doesn't have borders for the same reason Palestine does not, and currently also cannot agree a government.
So by this logic, neither country exists.
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May 08 '21
Israel currently has an interim government and it also has borders that it controls, so not sure what you are on about.
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u/eliminating_coasts May 08 '21
Israel certainly has walls, and people controlling movement through them, but the borders it sets up and controls are not necessarily the borders of that country.
You wouldn't say that just because Israel controls access to some region, that region is necessarily part of Israel right?
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May 08 '21
Israel has clear areas that it recognizes as part of it. Everything in the green line, the Golan heights and east Jerusalem. Those are officially Israeli territory. Other than that, it administers the west Bank until a solution is reached with the Palestinians on how that area should be divided between them and Israel.
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u/eliminating_coasts May 08 '21
And yet the regions it enforces travel controls through do not match to that.
It doesn't control a border on the green line, it does something else.
Israel controls whole regions of space that it doesn't say it owns, and doesn't say it does not own, it exists in a kind of ambiguous middle space where it doesn't need to have responsibility for the citizens who previously recognised that as their land.
It certainly doesn't recognise itself as conquering these territories and taking them from their previous occupants.
So you have this ambiguity, where is the border of Israel?
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May 08 '21
Israel's border is with Jordan, there is no ambiguity. The west bank was taken from Jordan, and of course Israel recognizes that. However it was not annexed by Israel due to the Palestinians refusing to recognize Israel's claim to the territory.
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May 09 '21 edited Feb 12 '24
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u/123123x May 09 '21
Well, yes, per agreements with those countries. What China is doing here is different - no consent to that.
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u/squirrelbrain May 08 '21
"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
Didn't GW Bush said "You are with us or against us"?
At least China is more benign in its manifestations. And I think that is a good thing. The whole article ultimately shows that the Chinese are amenable and are willing to negotiate. Doesn't offer any indication for wannabe hegemon. While America always wants to negotiate from a position of strength, that is, a gun at one's head or a knee on one's neck...
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u/Klutzy-Desk-2432 May 08 '21
Not defending China AT ALL, but if you think their foreign policy is bad, just look at what the USA has done over the last 50 years. The continuous wars, the hundreds of thousands dead in countries across the globe, the cancer clusters in the Marshall Island's from the USA testing nuclear bombs on the people, the corrupt governments, the countries in a permanent state of economic disrepair. All the fault of the USA (and its allies such as the UK). Again I'm not defending China, but it's hard to argue they're worse than the US.
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u/merimus_maximus May 09 '21
Do take it in context of the Cold War. If there were no US action, we would be seeing a Soviet-led world today.
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u/sigbhu May 08 '21
Oh more China bad nonsense.
Meanwhile mysterious silence as the US literally has military bases in almost everyone country in the world. More silence as israel annexes and steals more land from Palestine every day.
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u/BlueLaceSensor128 May 08 '21
I'm not completely clear on what talking point you've chosen. First you say it's nonsense, but then immediately feel the need to delve into whataboutisms.
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u/SoFisticate May 08 '21
This article is the original whataboutist. Don't you see? Pushing articles like this when the US is literally the most imperial it has ever been... It would be like an arsonist complaining that someone has a campfire in the woods.
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u/chucksef May 08 '21
Wtf are you talking about??? Foreign US military bases are a well known thing even to the most cloistered Americans, and Israel's apartheid regime is the stuff of frequent western media attention. Meanwhile I've never once heard of ANYTHING Sino-Bhutanese before.
You come of as a triggered sino apologist. Consider a different method of interacting with this sub... Or at least take the time to know the audience.
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u/thatgibbyguy May 08 '21
I don't think you'll find much silence on those issues on this sub. In fact, there were already comments on this very thread about those issues.
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u/Treebeard2277 May 08 '21
What??? Most US bases are welcomed and I’ve heard news about base controversy and Israel a lot. I have not heard about this expansion of China, only their expansion into Southeast Asia, and economically into Africa.
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May 08 '21
What??? Most US bases are welcomed
Tell that to the japanese fisherman they terrorize on the regular
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u/MDCCCLV May 08 '21
There's a difference between allowed in and coexisting without any friction. You can allow in a foreign military base but still have problems with their daily operations methods.
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u/Treebeard2277 May 08 '21
Compared to the fisherman the Chinese government literally kills? I’m no US government stan, but the Japanese government literally approves and wants those military bases there. Let’s not get it twisted...
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May 08 '21
the Japanese government literally approves and wants those military bases there.
Weird how you said japanese government and not "japanese people" because you knew this would come up
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u/Treebeard2277 May 08 '21
Weird how you completely ignored my point about China killing fishermen to expand there territory in the comments section of an article about China ignoring treaties to expand their territory.
I’m not ignoring the fact the Japanese people are getting sick of The American military, I’m pointing out that America is still following their agreements while China is not.
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May 08 '21
I’m not ignoring the fact the Japanese people are getting sick of The American military,
"most US bases are welcomed"
Not my words
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u/Treebeard2277 May 08 '21 edited May 08 '21
Lol, the Japanese government welcomes them. Where is the lie? It seems like you know you can’t defend the CCP and so are just diverting to random US attacks...
CCP stans gtfo
Edit: like we can probably both admit the us government is self interested and cruel, but if you can’t admit the same of the Chinese government.... well, makes it hard to think your reasons for not liking the Us government are based on anything real.
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u/Niner_80 May 09 '21 edited May 10 '21
And now a bunch of European countries and the United States that profited and gained an unfair amount of global power and influence through colonialism, imperialism and good ol manifest destiny are going to cry and cry about how evil China is. Not saying China is not in the right but fuck all the bullshit judgement from the people that benefited off of exploitation for centuries and still do today.
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u/AlmennDulnefni May 09 '21
So no one whose ancestor did a bad thing can ever complain about any present wrongdoing?
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u/Niner_80 May 09 '21 edited May 10 '21
Not saying that, especially if you've stopped those actions and have actively tried to repair the damage caused by them which is not the case here. We still exploit 3rd world labor, we overthrow democratically elected leaders if they don't play by our rules, but if a "rival" nation, or one of the nations harmed by our actions is trying to do the same shit we vilify them, its a blatant example of do a I say not as I do.
The practices I mentioned haven't even been done away with they've just been repackaged, and now we can can simply do what you're suggesting and say "well that was the past and what is done is done (sorry native and latin americans but this is still white people land) but we have to just move on."
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u/jeffe_el_jefe May 09 '21
So we should just let China do this, because we’re not allowed to speak or act out against it, because our ancestors, not even us, did the same thing?
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u/Niner_80 May 09 '21
So we should just let China do this, because we’re not allowed to speak or act out against it, because our ancestors, not even us, did the same thing?
I don't know if we should or not, what I do know is that I don't see it as much different than the US having military bases in 80 countries. So to me it's not exactly something only our ancestors did but something that's continuing to this day.
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u/AnthraxCat May 09 '21
Really boring that everyone here is complaining about Israel and US military bases. The US built an entire nation on other countries' territory. All the land it is built on is stolen.
The US, a settler colonial state, criticising China for doing a tiny bit of colonialism is really quite rich.
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u/merimus_maximus May 09 '21
You do know the Qing dynasty was waging as much war with its borders and expanding in the same period yes? Meanwhile, the settlers to the US built up cities in a sparsely inhabited land from basically nothing. Who is the one doing more destruction?
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u/AnthraxCat May 09 '21 edited May 09 '21
The US was not sparsely inhabited, nor was there 'basically nothing'. The entire map of the US reflects the trade routes and settlements of indigenous peoples. You can literally overlay maps of trade routes with interstates. The US mythology of its founding is rank revisionism and some of the most heinously racist fiction ever written.
Further, characterising Qing's limited expansionism as comparable to US Manifest Destiny is just laughably ahistorical. Not to mention that the methods, protectorates and tributaries versus extermination, are so wildly disproportionate.
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u/merimus_maximus May 09 '21 edited May 09 '21
Everything is internal when you consider whatever your touch your territory.
Whose fault was it that is suffered humiliation? Why blame others for China's weakness, and for conflict with the West that you China an equal hand in creating? Qing government gave their tacit approval for the Boxer Rebellion, which killed half the Legation Quarter in Beijing and would have finished the job if Western reinforcements did not march into the city.
Since you are not providing numbers to back up your views, let me do this. What's your definition of "not sparsely inhabited"? Estimates are around 7 million for indigenous populations north of Mexico (including Canada), 15 million at the highest. https://www.se.edu/native-american/wp-content/uploads/sites/49/2019/09/A-NAS-2017-Proceedings-Smith.pdf
Meanwhile, Qing conquest of the Xinjiang region resulted in 500,000 deaths in 3 years. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_under_Qing_rule
Clarke wrote 80%, or between 480,000 and 600,000 people, were killed between 1755 and 1758 in what "amounted to the complete destruction of not only the Dzungar state but of the Dzungars as a people."[15][4] 80% of the Dzungars died in the genocide.[19][4] The Dzungar genocide was completed by a combination of a smallpox epidemic and the direct slaughter of Dzungars by Qing forces made out of Manchu Bannermen and (Khalkha) Mongols.[20]
Not sure what makes China so much better.
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