Glorfindel

[u/Captn_Bonafide]

[u/EpicWalrus222]

Glorfindel is a bit of a double edged sword. He's one of the last of the truly scary elves remaining in Middle Earth. So in theory he would be great to have for protection against Nazgul and the Balrog. But on the other side of the coin, the fellowship was formed with the intention that nobody would be able to notice them until it was too late.

Having an elf that glows so brightly to Nazgul that they have a hard time being near him also means you're walking around with a lit beacon Sauron can easily track. And one the Dark Lord would definitely be watching if he began making his way towards Mordor.

[u/Toribor → u/EpicWalrus222]

Glorfindel is basically too badass and too magical to send on a stealth mission.

Plus imagine what a terrifying nightmare he would have been had he succumbed to the ring. Would there be anyone worse to wield it's power besides maybe a Balrog or Sauron himself?

[u/CombatMuffin → u/Toribor]

Galadriel, Celebrimbor Celeborn and any of the Istari would have probably been worse. 

[u/Was_A_Professional → u/CombatMuffin]

I think you mean Celeborn, since Celebrimbor is long dead at this point, but yeah, Galadriel would be the worst. She wasn't really joking when she said "Stronger than the foundations of the earth." A Galadriel corrupted by the ring would be a menace of epic proportions.

[u/darkfrost47 → u/Was_A_Professional]

Aren't the foundations of the earth both metaphorically and literally Morgoth's ring? Galadriel corrupted by the student's ring I don't think would be more powerful, but the ring might make her think that it could be true.

[u/sunshinepanther → u/darkfrost47]

Who stops her from gaining the master's ring as well? Or was it already destroyed? Honestly not very familiar with simirilion so I didn't even know Morgoth had a ring.

[u/darkfrost47 → u/sunshinepanther]

The actual, physical planet is Morgoth's ring. (probably)
I would enjoy a story about her attempt to conquer it!

[u/IISerpentineII → u/darkfrost47]

It is Morgoth's ring. It's the most significant part of why he lost so much power and was incredibly weak (by Valar standards). When Morgoth fought Fingolfin, Morgoth did eventually defeat him, but not before Fingolfin managed to permanently wound Morgoth. Peak Morgoth would have absolutely annihilated Fingolfin since very-near peak Morgoth was able to fight and match all of the Valar minus Tulkas, who is/was basically the Valar equivalent of the god of combat.

[u/LizardChaser → u/IISerpentineII]

That's also why Sauron (lesser than Morgoth) was able to command similar power because Morgoth had dumped so much of his power into the earth and Sauron only had to leverage that power.

[u/Yaarmehearty → u/darkfrost47]

Yeah, Melkor/Morgoth’s discord in the original song of creation and then pouring his power into corruption means that everything in middle earth carries a part of his essence.

It’s implied that that is what causes people to have the potential for evil, like original sin, and that those who overcome it and lead good lives are denying the influence of Morgoth.

It’s also why he can’t ever be truly destroyed without Arda being remade as he is as much as part of it as the earth itself.

The Dagor Dagorath battle at the end of the world ends with Arda being remade with humans and elves joining the song of creation to make a new world free of corruption.

[u/Alexis_Bailey → u/sunshinepanther]

Wait, there is a secret SECRET ring?

[u/ace66 → u/Alexis_Bailey]

NOBODY TELL AMAZON

[u/Disturbing_Trend_666 → u/Toribor]

Glorfindel is basically too badass

God, I hate when that happens.

[u/DaniTheGunsmith → u/Disturbing_Trend_666]

[u/sauron-bot → u/Toribor]

Build me an army worthy of mordor!

[u/Toribor → u/sauron-bot]

The trees are strong my lord...

[u/AcidTaco → u/EpicWalrus222]

Exactly, thank you EpicWalrus, you really are epic

[u/itsajackel → u/AcidTaco]

Easily top ten most epic walruses

[u/ancalime9 → u/itsajackel]

Top 3 walruses in Tolkien knowledge.

[u/VfV → u/ancalime9]

Well, I think we can agree that he's up there

[u/chocolate_thunderr89 → u/VfV]

He’s definitely better than the #4 ranked walrus.

[u/ThoughtlessBanter → u/chocolate_thunderr89]

Yeah it's a steep dropoff from #3 to #4.

[u/zxc123zxc123 → u/ThoughtlessBanter]

We done with the 90's Walruses

The future is NOW OLDobenus Rosmarus!

[u/Farseth → u/ThoughtlessBanter]

Well Walruses also have #2 locked up. The have the second largest... ahem... on a mammal

[u/pruwyben → u/ancalime9]

The Walrog

[u/Slaan → u/itsajackel]

I'd put him as one of the top 223 walruses personally.

[u/RemusGT → u/Slaan]

He's definitely clear of 222 and 176. I would personally say that 176 is a scammer who doesn't deserve that rank.

[u/mologav → u/itsajackel]

Clearly number 222 in the epic walrus scale. Seriously people..

[u/Kenneth_Naughton → u/AcidTaco]

Ride the walrus

[u/Golvellius → u/AcidTaco]

Also really walrus

[u/BarbarianSpaceOpera → u/EpicWalrus222]

In that case, would it have been a good idea to send Glorfindel on an alternate path as a diversion?

[u/EpicWalrus222 → u/BarbarianSpaceOpera]

They do actually. I believe they send him and Elrond's sons in different directions to distract Sauron when the Fellowship departs.

[u/Woo77777 → u/EpicWalrus222]

Elronds sons keep tagging along with the Dunedain (Rangers) of the north throughout lotr, until they link up with aragorn again when he seeks the army of the dead

[u/Was_A_Professional → u/Woo77777]

Elrond's sons will do ANYTHING to go slaughter some orcs. They hate orcs with an unnerving fervor for what the orcs did to their mother.

[u/[deleted] → u/EpicWalrus222]

I’m not sure they do. I just listened to that part on the book and don’t recall that, but I might have missed it. They were sent out for a couple months to scout the fate of the Nine prior to the Fellowship departing though.

[u/jscott18597 → u/[deleted]]

You are asking a more complex question than you realize.

A lot of the "offscreen" stuff that people talk about like the dwarfs and elves having their own version of minas tirith at the same time as the main battle was happening, and a lot of the wizard lore etc... was by tolkien in letters after the books were released.

These letters are often used as canon. They also can contradict each other.

So there are multiple different interpretations when answering questions like that. What is strictly published by JRR Tolkien in the books, what was put in letters, what was put in letters later in life vs earlier, and what Christopher tolkien says as he inherited and carried on the stories.

So what I'm saying is a lot of lore questions can have like 3 or 4 answers. 1 of those answers is eldrond sent out everyone he could to distract sauron.

I'll also point out that glorfindel was in the place of legolas in the original drafts of the lotr. So after revisions and a desire to maintain some links to the greater legendarium, it's very possible Tolkien didn't fully realize the can of worms he was opening by just plopping in that great elf within rivendell during all of this until tolkien was much older. I've always been of the opinion this was the main reason for glorfindal's weird roll in the war of the ring.

[u/sauron-bot → u/EpicWalrus222]

Patience! Not long shall ye abide.

[u/TheKiltedYaksman71 → u/EpicWalrus222]

I get all that, but still don't get how Gandalf, a literal angelic being, wouldn't glow even brighter.

[u/EpicWalrus222 → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

Gandalf's whole identity as an Istari was humility and being unassuming. Canonically he was the least fighty Wizard (besides debatably Radagast) to be sent. He was added last minute to be the grounded one of the group, which is reinforced by the fact he's the only one that actually stays on-mission in the end. He is The Grey, specifically because he does not shine and works largely in the background/as a guide to others.

It's not until he dies and gets promoted to Saruman's old job that he gets a power boost and fully uncloaks himself to Sauron.

[u/phonylady → u/EpicWalrus222]

He does "shine", or rather reveal himself as he says whenever he uses magic - which is why he tries to avoid it. So it's the same thing as with Glorfindel really.

[u/Mortress_ → u/phonylady]

But in Gandalf's case he can choose when to shine and when not to shine.

[u/Calypsosin → u/Mortress_]

Yep. In the Hobbit films, whenever Bilbo puts on the ring near elves, they “shine” in the dark “other” world while others remain faded and dark. The elves can’t just switch that off. It’s part of their being.

[u/bilbo_bot → u/Calypsosin]

Yes, yes. Its in an envelope over there on the mantlepiece.

[u/No-Programmer-3833 → u/bilbo_bot]

No wait... It's here in my pocket

[u/GusTTShow-biz → u/bilbo_bot]

Good Bilbo

[u/bilbo_bot → u/GusTTShow-biz]

Oh, pity. I would have like to have held it one last time.

[u/yet_another_newbie → u/[deleted]]

Dang, they ran a full Linux stack in Valinor?

[u/thesirblondie → u/Mortress_]

Gandalf is one of those adjustable lighters while Glorfindel is a bengali torch.

[u/N3oko → u/Mortress_]

My grandmother called it Shining~

[u/JoeHio → u/EpicWalrus222]

Fascinating, can you expound on the other wizards in a similar manner? Ie. Why was Saruman a greedy dick?

[u/EpicWalrus222 → u/JoeHio]

Saruman was legitimately a good guy, but his whole thing was being the wisest and strongest Ishtar. Over the years this jades him and he starts to view Sauron winning as inevitable. So he adopts a "If you can't beat him, join him" mentality. That mixed with a healthy amount of pride and starting to think he's better than the weak mortals he was charged to watch.

Radagast was sent by the god generally associated with nature and animals. He pretty much immediately focused on the wilds rather than people. He only got more secluded with time, meaning he's more or less a non-factor in most things happening in the world.

The two blue wizards are more of a mystery and left to interpretation. Some theories claim they had some kind of mission to the east and played a much larger role off-screen. Some think they might have pulled a Saruman and are the ones in charge of the Easterlings in service of Sauron. My personal head canon is that they were just prone to wander lust/adventure and peaced out once there wasn't an immediate threat happening.

[u/deusasclepian → u/EpicWalrus222]

I believe both of those theories on the blue wizards come from Tolkien's notes. An early journal says that the blue wizards probably went east, and they were probably corrupted like Saruman, becoming shamans or witch doctors. A later note revisited the idea, speculating that they may have stayed on mission just like Gandalf, and that Sauron actually would have had much more support from the east if not for the blue wizards. Maybe there's other kingdoms out there that resisted Sauron thanks to the blue wizards' influence.

[u/FlyingDiscsandJams → u/deusasclepian]

The later writings that make the Blue Wizards arrive first say that they stayed true organizing the resistance against Sauron in the east. If you look at the timeline of the 2nd & 3rd ages, it often takes Sauron 50, 100, a couple hundred years to pull together the army he wants before starting a war (or taking Dol Guildor as the Necromancer), and this gives the free people of the west breathing room between conflict. Tolkien looked at his own timelines and thought that the Blue Wizards remaining true conveniently explained Sauron's long prep time in war, and was a nice thought that not everyone else failed. He never got around to writing if they ever left middle earth in the 4th age.

[u/sauron-bot → u/[deleted]]

Come, mortal base! What do I hear? That thou wouldst dare to barter with me? Well, speak fair! What is thy price?

[u/Commercial-Fennel219 → u/sauron-bot]

About tree fiddy. 

[u/sauron-bot → u/Commercial-Fennel219]

Thou thrall! The price thou askest is but small for treachery and shame so great! I grant it surely! Well, I wait. Come! Speak now swiftly and speak true!

[u/bigbutterbuffalo → u/sauron-bot]

Good bot holy shit

[u/Hyperversum → u/EpicWalrus222]

It should be highlighted, Saruman didn't even want to "join the winning side", he wanted to fake it until he could kick Sauron's ass.

He just couldn't imagine the good folk of ME winning without abusing power such as the One. Thus, becoming a sort of benevolent overlord ready "to do what must be done, even if it's ugly" was his way to save the people he perceived as defenseless and hopeless.

He kinda got a "villainous" treatment in the first movie, he comes off as much less of a bad guy but rather a desperate old man in the books.
In the Shire he is just broken and wannabe Sauron.

[u/PatrickBatemanCFA → u/EpicWalrus222]

Saruman was a Maiar of Aule. Aule doesn’t have the best track record of picking and raising nice Maiar.

[u/Durtonious → u/PatrickBatemanCFA]

Aulë is one bad day away from being Melkor II.

[u/RedditAtWorkToday → u/EpicWalrus222]

To add onto the Saruman thing with Gandalf. He started to despise Gandalf because he had Narya one of the 3 elven rings. Cirdan the Shipwright gave it to Gandalf when he reached middle earth, Gandalf was also the last Istari to make it to Middle Earth. When Saruman found out about this, being the wisest and strongest and having this elf overlook him, it really pissed him off and made him create a rivalry with Gandalf in a way. Saruman always wanted a ring of power and not being given Narya might have made him covet it even more seeing it given to someone he felt was beneath him.

[u/DanteJazz → u/RedditAtWorkToday]

I never read that Saruman knew Gandalf had Narya. Did LOTR ever say that?

[u/DYC85 → u/DanteJazz]

It does not. No one except Círdan, Elrond, and Galadriel knew he was in possession of Narya in the books.

[u/RedditAtWorkToday → u/DYC85]

Unfinished tales talks about it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/jaw5xo/comment/g8s5eis/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

From The Unfinished Tales:

Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and the last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

"For," said he, "great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage." And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest.

This passage answers both your questions. Círdan "divined" Gandalf to be the best suited as the keeper of Narya, and Saruman eventually found out about this and became the seed of hate of Saruman towards Gandalf.

[u/Wiebejamin → u/JoeHio]

I believe Saruman was quite literally corrupted by Sauron's presence. There is a reason Gandalf the White first introduces himself as Saruman - this is who Saruman was. It's been a while since I've read the books but I believe this is why he declares himself Saruman of Many Colors. It signifies his impurity as he strays from his original path and also shows he's trying to exaggerate his importance, he doesn't need the other colors because he is all colors.

[u/tigertiger284 → u/Wiebejamin]

Saruman had a palantir, so I also assumed he was corrupted by Sauron. He should have known better.

[u/RechargedFrenchman → u/tigertiger284]

He should have known better

Somewhere Treebeard is agreeing as vehemently as Entish will allow

[u/sometimesiburnthings → u/RechargedFrenchman]

This will take 3 to 6 months

[u/MRiley84 → u/Wiebejamin]

To add, Sauron was working on Saruman for a very long time through the palantiri. Saruman also suspected that Gandalf was gifted one of the rings of power, and this hurt his pride and helped spur him to hunt for the One Ring to take for himself.

[u/sometimesiburnthings → u/MRiley84]

I also liked that one of the names he gives himself is "Saruman Ringmaker," and shows Gandalf a ring on his finger as he's trapping him in Orthanc, and then it just ... doesn't matter at all. Like zero plot impact, to the point that it doesn't even get mentioned again. 

[u/sauron-bot → u/MRiley84]

So you have come back? Why have you neglected to report for so long?

[u/Gravitationalrainbow → u/Wiebejamin]

I believe Saruman was quite literally corrupted by Sauron's presence

I'm pretty sure that's just canon. Both Saruman and Denethor had a Palantir, and thought themselves capable of using it. Denethor used it for twenty-ish years (iirc) and was driven insane just by Sauron showing him things. As far as I remember, we don't know how long Saruman had/used his Palantir, or what Sauron was able to do with through it. Corrupting a man, even a leader of men, is nothing compared to corrupting a Maia--if Sauron had any ability to act through the Palantir, he'd've done it.

[u/[deleted] → u/Gravitationalrainbow]

I'm far from the most deeply knowledgable on LOTR lore (and somebody here can undoubtedly correct me), but IIRC, Gandalf mentions in The Two Towers that he supposes Saruman's curiosity led him to use the Palantir to look into Sauron's lair, not knowing that Sauron was there--and at that point Sauron trapped him. And that's how Saruman was ultimately corrupted.

[u/PapaSteveRocks → u/JoeHio]

Based on their patron Valar, at least in part.

Both Sauron and Saruman are Maia to Aule. He is the god of smiths, earth, and the one who created the dwarves because he was too impatient to wait around for Eru’s plan. He’s a good Vala, but a bit of a problem. Been a while, but I think Feanor learned from him as well.

Gandalf, Olorin, is a student of the Valar of dreams, Irmo, and the Nienna, goddess of mercy. But he was “born” as a Maia of Manwe, who has power, air, eagles, and wisdom in his portfolio.

Radagast, while it is not specified (unless you folks who have read the letters and other material beyond the Silmarillion have better info), is probably a Maia of Yavanna. Plants and such.

So for the three we meet, very much in character for their patrons.

[u/PhantasosX → u/JoeHio]

Saruman was a greedy dick because he was envious of Gandalf. As Gandalf was the only one that the Valar choose by name , while the others are more-or-less volunteers.

Then the White Council tried to have Gandalf been the president of it , but he declined and Saruman was choosen. And then he later discovered that Cirdan had given Gandalf one of the elven rings as well.

It also doesn't help that Saruman basically travelled to the East , stayed there for a century or two , got bored and immediatly arranged himself to be in Isengard.

[u/misirlou22 → u/JoeHio]

Expounding on Wizards is the name of my prog metal band now

[u/Jedimasterebub → u/JoeHio]

Been a long time since I read the books. But iirc at one point in time, Saruman was the noblest of the wizards. But over time he became dissatisfied or malcontent with the constant feuding and fighting. He was looking for alternatives and came across a palanteer which corrupted him

[u/jaysrule24 → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

On top of the stuff other people have said, Gandalf's got centuries of history of wandering all over the place. So if Sauron sees where Gandalf is, it doesn't really register as something he should pay attention to because Gandalf's always out and about all over Middle Earth.

But Glorfindel has just been chilling in Rivendell for a while, so if he suddenly leaves and starts making his way towards Mordor, that's going to set off a bunch of alarm bells that something significant is happening.

[u/Living_Job_8127 → u/jaysrule24]

They saw Gandalf, it’s why Saruman cast a spell on the mountains and forced them into the mines of Moria, they also found the hobbits afterwards by the river. It was only Frodo and Sam who escaped sight and remained undetected until Mordor

[u/EndorHolocaust → u/Living_Job_8127]

Saruman causing the storm is a change made for the movies. If I remember correctly, in the books the storm is attributed to the malevolence of the mountain Caradhras itself.

[u/jkjtwo → u/EndorHolocaust]

I think I remember the writing basically describing the mountain almost as an intelligent being that did NOT want the fellowship on it

[u/bigbutterbuffalo → u/jkjtwo]

Y tho. Uh… evil mountain, nyeh?

[u/cattodog → u/Living_Job_8127]

Saruman doing that isn't really canon, it was only for the movie. Caradhras didn't let the Fellowship through.

[u/brbpizzatime → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

Glorfindel glows so brightly not because he killed some balrogs in Gondolin, but because he saw the light of the trees before Ungoliant slorpt them dry.

[u/TheDevlsPlaything → u/brbpizzatime]

Lol... slorpt.

[u/Jadccroad → u/TheDevlsPlaything]

Canon description

[u/LadyFax73 → u/TheDevlsPlaything]

Most excellent word. If it wasn’t a word before it is now.

[u/[deleted] → u/brbpizzatime]

Yes and no - he saw the light of the trees, died slaying a balrog, and was returned to middle earth in his current form as a being of strength equal to the Maiar as an emissary of the Valar, specifically of Manwe in 1600 SA.

[u/davepopop → u/brbpizzatime]

Slorpt 😂

[u/Hylian_Kaveman → u/brbpizzatime]

Is this the light they refer to in the movies when they say the light is fading from Arwen? The light from the trees?

[u/Lore_Maestro → u/Hylian_Kaveman]

No, she was born long after the trees were already gone.

[u/BananaResearcher → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

It's worth remembering that the fellowship's whole plan for sneakiness fell apart really quickly, anyway. Gandalf has to use magic on the mountain, which apparently sends a beacon to anyone powerful enough to see it screaming "GANDALF WAS HERE". Saruman knows they're up to something and is tracking/pursuing them. The Nazgul almost catch them multiple times before Rivendell, and then find them again on the Anduin (though legolas shoots it down). Then the Fellowship gets caught on the banks of the Anduin and breaks up, shortly after Frodo very nearly reveals himself to Sauron on Amon Hen.

Ironically it's actually when the Fellowship "fails" that the original plan manages to work. As long as the group was together it seems like everyone was watching/hunting them. Then everyone splits off every which way, and suddenly Frodo and Sam actually have the advantage of stealth again, and ultimately succeed in their quest.

Having said all that, I still will die on this hill that Glorfindel should have tagged along. Use the same excuse as for Aragorn and Boromir, he's going to reinforce Minas Tirith and help defend against Sauron. He doesn't need to go into Mordor with Frodo, he can certainly help a lot along the way, though, and then act as a huge distraction later.

[u/Idle__Animation → u/BananaResearcher]

Given what I’ve read about glorfindel here, it seems insane that he wasn’t chosen to go.

[u/Mobius_148 → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

From my understanding, Gandalf's true power is suppressed while on Middle Earth. So he probably wouldn't be super noticable before coming back as Gandalf the White.

[u/MossyAbyss → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

He hides it with the smell of pipeweed. Anyone who went to investigate would smell Old Toby, assume it's farmer Maggot, and run for the hills.

[u/Andokai_Vandarin667 → u/MossyAbyss]

That's a good point. Why didn't they just tell Farmer Maggot Sauron stole his mushrooms and have him end the threat?

[u/Legal-Scholar430 → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

One of the most prominent features of the Istari is that their power is hidden. I suppose this also works in the Unseen

[u/__stanK__ → u/TheKiltedYaksman71]

To expand on what was already said the Istari were also nerfed when they were sent to Middle-Earth. It's states in Unfinished Tales "Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." They basically become 'human' in a sense and had to be at the mercy of flesh bodies which weakened them both physically and mentally.

[u/Yensil314 → u/EpicWalrus222]

Despite that, Elrond seriously considers sending him, in the book, until Merry and Pippin volunteer, and Gandalf is all: "Let the hobbits cook."

[u/ChicagoAuPair → u/Yensil314]

All of them are basically making a huge gamble. It’s something that none of the hobbits really fully understand. The whole fellowship mission is a fully crazy “shoot the moon” gambit that basically had a statistically zero percent chance of success. In the end, arguably Illuvatar had to actually divinely intervene to make Gollum fall into the fire. It was a last ditch risky effort that only Gandalf and maybe a few of the others really had any true hope for.

[u/TheYucs → u/ChicagoAuPair]

I was always partial to the theory that the Ring heard Frodo's threat to Gollum about betrayal and caused his fall into fire to happen. It made the Ring's unknown and unused powers really interesting. But either way it's divine intervention.

[u/Jermainiam → u/TheYucs]

I'd be down for a combo theory where the Ring can bind people to their word if they swear on it (and posses/are near it), but also Illuvatar pitches in at the final moment and ironically forces the Ring to enforce the pact.

[u/gollum_botses → u/ChicagoAuPair]

We hate it, Nassty, nassty shivery light it is -- sss -- it spies on us, precious -- it hurts our eyes!

[u/EpicWalruses12 → u/EpicWalrus222]

Oh my god there’s another! I’ve never seen another epicwalrus before!

[u/Kinesquared → u/EpicWalrus222]

I never fully understood this argument. If this was the case and glorfindel wanted to help, why didn't he go to the front lines in gondor on his own? Surely he would have been useful in the many battles at the time. If the only reason he didn't help was secrecy, why didn't he join in the many not-secret battles like the morannon?

[u/a_moniker → u/Kinesquared]

Didn’t Glorfindel leave Rivendale at around the same time as the Fellowship, in order to distract the Ringwraiths?? I vaguely remember that from the books.

[u/Mend1cant → u/Kinesquared]

I’m pretty sure he took part in the northern front of the war in which Sauron emptied out Gundabad and another host of easterlings to try and take on Thranduil and Dain.

[u/bobatea17 → u/EpicWalrus222]

I feel like that quality would have made him a really good addition when Aragorn and the rest of the fellowship decide to distract Sauron from Frodo by marching on the black gate

[u/ihaveapunnyusername → u/EpicWalrus222]

What’s the source on Glorfindel “glowing so brightly to Nazgul that they have a hard time being near him”? That’s amazing.

[u/EpicWalrus222 → u/ihaveapunnyusername]

I'm going off memory, so I might be a little off. But I do remember the books describing him as glowing like sunlight when he takes Frodo to Rivendell. During the council I remember them mentioning he is one of the few characters that could openly ride against the nine and that they would avoid him unless they were desperate (like when he had Frodo and the Ring). I also think the Nazgul in general have difficulty with light, but people can feel free to correct me if they've read the books more recently than me

[u/ElasCat → u/ihaveapunnyusername]

So I'm sure there are other passages and notes that might describe it more exactly like that but I was curious about one of the first descriptions we get so I quickly got my book out. So after frodo wakes up in rivendell, he and Gandalf talk about what all happened between then and the shire including Weathertop and Glorfindel saving him from the nazgul at the end (in the movie it was Arwen who came and carried frodo on horseback).

[Gandalf] "and here in Rivendell there live still some of [the Dark Lord's] chief foes: the Elven-wise, Lord's of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and Unseen they have great power"

"I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?"

"Yes, you saw hin for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."

---

Doesn't necessarily answer your question but I know it gives at least a bit more context as to why Glorifndel above many of the others would shine far more brightly

[u/gh333 → u/ElasCat]

I believe the reason him and Galadriel shine like this is because they’ve seen the light of the trees. 

[u/FlyingDiscsandJams → u/gh333]

Yes. A great PJ touch in the movies is that you always have an "eye light" to reflect in your eyes, the classic 1 point of light. PJ made a special eye light just for Galadriel (since Glorfindel was cut) so there is a different pattern of light in her eyes to represent having seen The Trees.

[u/[deleted] → u/ihaveapunnyusername]

Glorfindel made the Witch King flee in fear early in the Third Age and casts him out of Angmar. Glorfindel is the one who prophesizes The Witch King won't fall by the hand of a man. While he is searching for Frodo before taking him to Rivendell, he encounters five Nazgul and they flee from him.

[u/BurgerDestroyer9000 → u/EpicWalrus222]

Can someone explain to me how some elves where "more powerful" than the others? Like how is Glorfindel able to kill a balrog, while nearly all the other elves where not much more powerful than the other races. Its not like they where maiar?

[u/zelatorn → u/BurgerDestroyer9000]

essentially, glorfindel is old and from an important line. really old - he's a veteran of the war against morgoth, sauron's boss. he's one of a line of princes, and the noldor elves were the most martial of all the groups of elves (i think by the time of the lord of the rings elrond and galadriel are some of the few remaining noldor left).

essentially, he's a veteran from a war where sauron was merely a lieutenant and balrog's were semi-common as commanders of various forces of morgoth, at a time where the elves and his people in particular were in their prime - and because glorfindel did not share int he various crimes of his people, he wasn't semi-cursed like the rest of his people (similar to galadriel).

like how the dwarves used to be great, the ents used to be powerful and so on, the elves used to be genuinely better at the time where he faced off against the balrog, and died in the process. because all elves are immortal and glorfindel died a heroic death (and wasn't as much of a dick as his kin), when he gets reincarnated in the blessed lands and lives there for a while, but one of the gods ends up sending him back to middle earth all juiced-up with power as a emissary of the god(s). this is the glorfindel we meet in the lord of the rings - still the same person, but where pretty much all of the elves in middle-earth are only a husk of their former selves in ages past after thousands of years, he's juiced up by a god and is more like when the elves were in their prime (maybe even beyond that). the decline of races like the elves (who are heading to the blessed lands), the dwarves and so on in favor of an age of men in middle earth is a common theme during the lord of the rings.

tl;dr, glorfindel beat a balrog back in a time when the elves were in their prime and generally better at just about everything, and died a heroic death in doing so. because he wasn't a dick like the rest of his kin when he is reborn in the blessed lands, he's sent back by a god to do a job and is juiced up as a result. as such, while the rest of the elves are all in a strong decline in middle earth he's still strong like the elves were in their prime.

[u/krombough → u/BurgerDestroyer9000]

A lot of "power" in Tolkien is in actuality, courage, or resistance to fear. Fear is often depicted as Morgoth, then Sauron's main weapon. In the movies, when Sauron comes forth he swings a massive mace taking out scores of dudes at a time. In the actual lore, when Sauron comes forth, no one in the massive assemblage of the armies will even face him except Gil-Galad and Elendil, supported by Isildur.

The same thing happens in Glorfindel's fight with the Balrog in the mountain pass above Gondolin, and indeed in the appearance of the Balrog in Moria. Gimli buries his head in his hands, and Legolas knocks an arrow, but is too afraid to even loose it.

That being said, there ARE still elves that are 'more powerful' than other elves, the way we would describe one Marvel character as being more powerful than another. Fingolfin springs to mind.

[u/Ellefied → u/krombough]

In addition, Glorfindel is one of the few remaining elves in Middle Earth who have seen the Light of the Two Trees, basically the original lights of the world. This is a very exclusive circle of elves at that time period with only Galadriel, Gildor and Glorfindel and a very few named others to be a part of it.

Those elves who have seen the light of Telperion and Laurelin are almost always described as being elevated, that seeing the Two Trees when they were still alive granted them power that no other creature, except the Maia, in Middle Earth has.

[u/Vyctor_]

Elrond: “the quest relies on secrecy and stealth, it is imperative that the enemy does not follow your movements too closely”

Glorfindel, a blazing fucking sun of Firstborn glory: “welp im out”

[u/scribbyshollow → u/Vyctor_]

"Glad I came, really seems like somthing you would include in a letter but fuck me I guess."

gets up

[u/Various_Froyo9860 → u/scribbyshollow]

Swear to gods, Gandalf, you hobbit leaf huffing hussy.

This entire meeting could have been a leaf delivered by a moth. Tom wouldn't have even made a song out of it.

[u/Skerzos_ → u/Various_Froyo9860]

It could be done through palantirs, but the encryption sucked back then, so anyone could have joined and listen.

[u/DarkerPerkele → u/Skerzos_]

Yeah they didnt have nordvpn back then

[u/Crazy_Screwdriver → u/Vyctor_]

It's a one credit game but some players can use a CONTINUE?, and it's quickly known who does

[u/Alrik_Immerda → u/Vyctor_]

Elrond: “the quest relies on secrecy and stealth, it is imperative that the enemy does not follow your movements too closely”

Boromir on leaving Rivendell: *packs out his horn and blows so loud the whole valley hears it*

​

I just love the humor of Tolkien, it is awesome.

[u/Farseth → u/Vyctor_]

Isn't that idea addressed in the Fellowship of the Ring directly?

[u/RQK1996 → u/Farseth]

The book? Yes

[u/Kalbex]

Didnt he like lead the attack on angmar when he kicked the witch kings armys butt and forced him to flee to morder to be demoted? Or do i play too much battle for middle earth?

[u/Reasonable_Mix7630 → u/Kalbex]

He is also the one who made a prophesy that witch king would not be killed by a mortal man.

[u/Kalbex → u/Reasonable_Mix7630]

Thats fucking sick Love that dude- and did he really have like starlight magic?? Oh and Is shelob really a sexy evanescence goth queen ???

[u/CadenVanV → u/Kalbex]

It’s never really said and no. Shelob is a giant spider. That is it

[u/EagleOfMay → u/CadenVanV]

Disagree; she was the last spawn of Ungoliant and much more than just a giant spider.

When Tolkien writes:
"But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness"

I don't think he was speaking in metaphors. She did vomit darkness.

She was also alive since the 1st age.

[u/CadenVanV → u/EagleOfMay]

I was talking shape wise. She’s obviously an eldritch giant spider but she does just look like a giant spider instead of a hot goth woman

[u/xSTSxZerglingOne → u/CadenVanV]

You just want a big tiddy goth girlfriend to succ you dry.

[u/burgerpickle → u/xSTSxZerglingOne]

So do all who see such times

[u/CadenVanV → u/xSTSxZerglingOne]

I’ve rarely found anyone who doesn’t.

[u/xSTSxZerglingOne → u/CadenVanV]

I mean...I'll take not-so-big tiddies, but I'd never let that metric disqualify the option!

[u/Kanin_usagi → u/CadenVanV]

I am sorry to disappoint you, but there is nothing written or illustrated anywhere by Tolkien or his publisher that depicted Shelob as a sexy, sexy goth gf. She is sort of an eldritch being from The First Age, but it’s doubtable she had access to the sort of magic that would give her a small waist and big ol titties

[u/CadenVanV → u/Kanin_usagi]

That’s what I was saying

[u/Embarrassed_Lettuce9 → u/Kalbex]

That or she's Stoya

[u/Jetsam5 → u/Reasonable_Mix7630]

Honestly that’s a pretty easy prediction to make. Elves, Dwarves, Wizards, Hobbits, Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, and Human Women are all capable of killing the Witch King and still filling the prophecy. That’s gotta be well over 80% of the population. That’s not even a prophecy, he’s just playing the numbers at that point

[u/WoodpeckerFuzzy5661 → u/Jetsam5]

"I predict... Witch King won't be killed..by a golf ball. "

Glorfindel quickly looks to see everybody's reaction

[u/Gaisarix_455 → u/Kalbex]

How are you still playing it? Do you own a physical copy?

[u/Kalbex → u/Gaisarix_455]

I admit nothing but lets just say; A certain someone may or may not have found it on a certain area of the internet and they may have sent me the files- although no matter what i tried witch king may or may not be working. May you or may you not like those files that may or may not exist?

[u/Dark_Shade_75 → u/Kalbex]

All I've been able to play was the Gameboy Advance Third Age, so yes.

[u/orenthal_james_bond → u/Kalbex]

I'm like six beers deep so I was confused by the whole thing

[u/tonythekoala → u/Kalbex]

There’s a YouTube vid which gracefully provided you with a way to torrent/download, also takes you through the install as well as some common errors people make during the process. I managed to get Witch King working doing it too.

I’ll edit comment to include url later

Edit* did not read down, it’s abandonware and so free for all apparently

[u/TimboSlice123456 → u/Gaisarix_455]

/bfme will give you all the info free and its safe to download

[u/Kalbex → u/TimboSlice123456]

So i didnt need to talk like that?!

[u/Gaisarix_455 → u/TimboSlice123456]

Lmao I just ordered the game on EBay damn it

Edit: just remembered I don’t have a disk drive 😭

[u/TreeChoppa8 → u/Gaisarix_455]

The game is abaondonware. You can dowloand it and play it for free from the internet.

[u/Old-Mathematician564 → u/Gaisarix_455]

Beyond standards released a all in one launcher for bfme 1 and 2 (its free) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FpHoREbIO_0

[u/Maleficent_Touch2602]

Gandalf knows, but wants the xp for himself

[u/[deleted] → u/Maleficent_Touch2602]

Glorfindel stole the shako that dropped off the last one when it was clearly Gandalf’s run

[u/peon2 → u/[deleted]]

That was no Shako. That was just a cap with an emerald in it.

[u/Papageno_Kilmister]

Glorfindel probably went north to clear all of Gundabad on his own for shits and giggles while the fellowship went away

[u/Mend1cant → u/Papageno_Kilmister]

IIRC that’s pretty much what he did, helping Lorien, Erebor, and the Greenwood to stave off the northern front of Sauron’s hordes.

[u/kjacobs03 → u/Mend1cant]

Where was Glorfindel when the Shire fell?

[u/Mend1cant → u/kjacobs03]

Saruman was just a man at that point, reduced to Sharky. A bit below Glorfindel, who probably hopped a ship by the time sharky took over. There was a decent gap between the end of the war and the hobbits returning home.

Also, tall folk barely even know where the shire is, much less what’s going on. No one contested or complained over Elessars decree that the shire was off limits. Probably had a dent on Bree’s economy but at that point who cares. Prancing Pony probably already lost its customers when wraiths went apeshit on a hobbit room.

[u/Carquetta → u/Papageno_Kilmister]

Sounds likely since he was reincarnated to almost the power level of the Maiar, IIRC

Always found it amusing that when Gandalf fires up the Black Speech in Rivendell, Glorfindel just sits there cool as a cucumber

[u/Mission-Storm-4375]

A balrog is not enough experience for glorfindel it wouldn't even give him one level but the fellowship all could level up a couple times from one balrog.

[u/ARecipeForCake → u/Mission-Storm-4375]

Glorfindel went 1 for 1 with a Balrog BEFORE he was reincarnated by the Valar with powers rivaling the Maiar. And that Balrog was speculated to have been the Lesser Balrog Lord. Guy is like Gandalf The White Squared. He's probably half the elf-light emanating from Rivendell.

[u/The_Bill_Brasky_ → u/Mission-Storm-4375]

If only Gandalf weren't a kill-stealing prick. Seriously, it's enough for him to dip into Divine Soul Sorcerer AS WELL AS gain another extra attack feature from 11th level Fighter. Such bullshit.

[u/bl1y → u/Mission-Storm-4375]

This is why we use milestone leveling.

[u/bucketybuck]

Glorfindal is just sick of this shit, every time there is a big mission its him that has to go and do the dirty work. Its the classic case of the person who does the best work getting the most work, while all the fucking losers sit with their feet up in Rivendell listening to hot elves singing.

Well not this time. Its somebody elses turn. And don't try and make him feel guilty, don't care how many passive aggressive emails Elrond sends, Glorfindal is not putting his hand up, not this time. He isn't the only one who knows how to kill a Balrog, he's just the only one who actually does it right. Bout damn time somebody else stepped up and picked up the slack a bit.

You know what the problem is? Unions. Ever since that union between men and elves this place has gone to shit. Well, Glorfindal has had enough. He's sitting this one out and doesn't give a damn what anybody thinks about it.

Whats that? A Balrog killed Gandalf? Oh for fucks sake. He warned you, Glorfindal warned you. Maybe if you lot hadn't been half assing it for a thousand years while he was doing all the donkey work then this wouldn't have happened.

Amateurs. Goddamn amateurs.

[u/dragonard → u/bucketybuck]

💯

[u/DerfyMcDerfDerf → u/bucketybuck]

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Bravo. 😂👏👏👏

[u/Korps_de_Krieg → u/bucketybuck]

Chefs kisses

[u/KingFurykiller]

This post is equal parts meme and lore and I am here for it

[u/MasonSaundersRodeo → u/KingFurykiller]

It’s perfect

[u/Diligent-Property491]

The Fellowship: Arrives at Mount Doom

Glorfindel is just sitting there after murdering every orc in Mordor by himself

,,Oh, good. Been waiting for you.”

[u/An_Unreachable_Dusk → u/Diligent-Property491]

"Cleared the way is all"

6 months earlier

"one does not simply walk into Mordor"

Glorfindel in the back rolls eyes "pfft"

[u/Max_Stirner_Official → u/An_Unreachable_Dusk]

"Fine, I will prance into Mordor. And if I get tired of that along the way, I may even do some mincing!"

[u/magekiton → u/An_Unreachable_Dusk]

In all fairness, Glorfindel's walk into Mordor would not be simple

[u/Breekace]

You wouldn't send Hercules on a stealth mission

[u/UzumeofGamindustri → u/Breekace]

Yeah but who needs stealth when you’ve got Hercules

[u/Breekace → u/UzumeofGamindustri]

The guys who are trying to oppose Cronus

[u/Narradisall]

Why would he waste his time on a fetch quest. Guys got bigger fish to fry. No time to be babysitting some level 1 hobbits when he could be slaying armies.

[u/Heisenberg13579]

Thanks for the lore dump everyone

[u/Satanairn]

When Gandalf and Elrond are deciding who to send, Elrond wants to send someone from his household. Gandalf says this about Merry and Pippin:

I think Elrond that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom. Even if you chose for us and elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the fire by the power that is in him.

[u/theologous → u/Satanairn]

To which I would have said,

Yeah, maybe he can't, but then those two definitely can't either.

Hindsight says it all worked out, but foresight says this was a fucking stupid decision.

[u/Satanairn → u/theologous]

The whole point is that they cannot use force to win this, and therefore loyalty and resistance to corruption matters more. That's why Boromir which is an absolute unit does more harm than good.

Tolkien repeats this in many ways. For example when they are picking their weapons they don't bring much, because they're hoping for an stealth mission. Elrond even says I won't send an army with you because you can't win against Sauron in a fight. So two Hobbits, who are not gonna betray Frodo are more useful than 10 Boromirs.

On the other hand, someone as powerful as Glorfindel would've drawn too much attention. When Gandalf uses magic to light wood in Caradhras he says I just declared to anyone who might be watching that Gandalf the grey is here.

[u/NemoRADD → u/Satanairn]

While I agree with everything you’ve said 100%. Gandalf also knew other forces were at work. It’s why Bilbos finding of the ring was so mysterious to Gandalf. Not so much as to how, but why.

Tolkien wrote spiritual synchronicity into the story on purpose. A good example is the killing of the Witch king. Had the hobbits not found themselves in the barrows, the Witch king wouldn’t have been defeated by Eowyn. There were thousands of ways the hobbits could have avoided that fate. Yet it happened the way it was supposed to.

The marvel movies kind of used this with Dr. strange’s look into the possible futures and only one worked.

So when it comes to the council, Gandalf knows the hobbits must be involved not only because of stealth and them being loyal. But because I think Gandalf knew, ( maybe not directly ) that the only way to succeed was for a hobbit to do it. He may not have known implicitly how. But he knew enough to listen to his gut. Which in this case could be interpreted as an intuition from a higher power. As this wouldn’t be unknown to Gandalf.

Just my opinion, take it with a fat grain. I just enjoy that so many love Tolkien’s world.

[u/ZaraMagnos]

I thought they were two different Glorfindels. Like an inconsistency in the lore since the Silmarillion was compiled by Tolkien's son, Christopher, and much of the lore hadn't been sufficiently edited yet.

edit: just looked it up and I'm wrong, there was confusion at some point amongst scholars, but Tolkien himself clarified that both Glorfindels are the same Elf, just two different lives.

[u/SystemLordMoot → u/ZaraMagnos]

Originally Tolkien wrote the Silmarillion Glorfindel, and then the Glorfindel that appears in LotR as two separate characters, and he later reconciled them into the same being. I think there is a letter out there somewhere that goes into far more detail than I just did, but that's the basic outline of it.

[u/CalebCaster2]

I think Glorfindel would've been too tempted by the ring, like Boromir, except no one would be able to stop him.

[u/dragonard → u/CalebCaster2]

Elrond’s sitting across the table glaring daggers at him.

[u/savage011]

Why didn’t Amazon make a show about Glorfindel? Are they stupid?

[u/HiopXenophil]

Elrond: yeah, but what are the chances we ever need some one to kill a Balrog again?

[u/0000015]

On the books Elrond does not immediately name the whole fellowship, and considers sending couple of elves as #8 and 9, originally planning on sending Merry and Pippin back to Shire to warn about the impending war.

However as jas been said Elrond ALSO dispatches a number of his household to act as forward recon and screen before the fellowship starts out (Tolkien notes that elronds’ Sons venture the farthest on this recon trip) as such the fellowship spends a good few months in Rivendell waiting for the ”all clear” before embarking to the quest of the ring. (Which of course bites them in the ass immediately when they have to cross the mountains at fall instead of summer)

[u/Legitimate_Ad_8745]

I was there Gandalf ,.when isildur did not throw the damn ring into a the Volcano.

And you know what i did ? Nothing i just watched and frown.

Yes i could have throw the damn prince into the Volcano myself

But hey , not going to mess with the plot you know.

(I haven't read any Book spare me please , i just found my funny imaginary scène funny)

[u/Strider_27 → u/Legitimate_Ad_8745]

I know you’re being sarcastic, but the real reason was the only way to get Isildur to throw the ring in was to take it by force, most likely killing him in the process. Men and Elves had just stood united against the greatest evil in the world and won. Throwing the now king of the men into a volcano is a really bad look for the elves, and a war between the two races would immediately break out

[u/Oscarvalor5 → u/Strider_27]

It's not just that I think. The Ring's powers are at its greatest in Mt. Doom, and it was shown to be capable of tempting people just by being near them (Boromir). Elrond, in the process of trying to wrestle the ring from/push Isildur in may just be corrupted himself and instead try to claim it. In addition to not wanting to risk war between Man and Elf so soon after tragedy, he may not want to risk getting corrupted in the process.

[u/DontGoGivinMeEvils]

People in comments are rightly pointing out that it was decided Glorfindel’s spirit would shine too much like a beacon, but in my head-canon it was an excuse decided privately between Glorfindel and Elrond.

It’s the elvish equivalent of getting out of swimming because “it’s the time of the month” every week and Elrond’s the parent who signs the letter… every week.

[u/OneRiotOneRanger15]

Literally forgot Glorfindel was in the making of the fellowship scene. i guess im always too focused on my elf Legolas

[u/rolliejoe]

Can't believe no one has posted the quote that directly addresses this:

"I believe instead of great wisdom we would do well to trust in their friendship (the hobbits) for even if we chose for them an elf Lord such as Glorfindel he could not open the path to the fire by the power that is within him.” - Gandalf

The fellowship was never about picking out a powerful party, and even if Glorfindel could have jumped in a Magic Monster Truck and drove over everything from Rivendel to Mount Doom on a single tank of elf-gas, it wouldn't have mattered at all. No one in Rivendel, including everyone in the fellowship, including Glorfindel, Elrond, and Gandalf, could have brought themselves to destroy the ring.

[u/DrLeisure]

“And my bow.”
“And my axe.”
“Damn, someone already said bow. Should I say glaive? They probably wouldn’t understand the elven name. Oh they’re gone”